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53 Mantle Listing
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381118256242...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Again, returned UNGRADED as I received it - No PSA

I had asked for an image of the back of a card once, and never heard from them. I didn't buy the card from them either. I wanted to know if the card was o/c on the back ( and see for myself ), or if the back had any imperfections. If they weren't going to take a moment to communicate with me in some form or another ( even " we're unable to send additional images due to time constraints, but the card looks good " would have been satisfactory for me ) I'm not buying from them. I have too many other choices in buying on ebay or on our BST. I'm sorry this has turned into a bad experience for you. Surprising they are not taking care of their better customers.

Why did you return this card?

It's pretty obvious it's a beater.

My reasoning was that the crease down the center was deeper down the front than appears and the separation of the paper along the edges was greater than I thought. Regardless return was within the 14-day allowable period.

Returns
 

If I sent back 4 cards to the same seller in a short time span it would not surprise me that the seller might decide my business was too high maintenance to retain.

+1...I have blocked bidders for a lot less than 4 returns.

Jeff

If I was a seller and I had a buyer return 4 separate purchases in a short period of time, I'd probably block them too. Yes, they do have a return policy in place...but from what I can tell, their auctions have good photos and clear descriptions. The occasional return is one thing...but they have to run a business and that becomes really challenging if a buyer is constantly returning inventory after purchase.

At some point, the seller will have to cut ties with that buyer because doing business with them is not profitable. I'd imagine they reached that point in this case.

+2....I too would block a buyer who consistently has buyer's remorse and returned a significant portion of the dollar amount they had purchased. As a seller, if I miss something on a card, I own it, accept the return and appreciate any repeat business . However, if a buyer repeatedly has subjective differences about cards (buyer's remorse) and they abuse the return policy, I feel it is best to block them so that I do not further disappoint them by sending any more inferior cards and focus my attention on the 99.99% of buyers who actually keep the cards I sell.

Since I buy much more than I sell, I can understand why the few times I have been blocked by a seller subsequent to returning grossly over-graded raw product. Not likely I would ever buy from that seller again anyway...I am actually appreciative that I am blocked as I wont make a mistake again by buying from the seller in question.

My recommendation to buyers with repeated subjective differences with online purchases is to either buy the card after it is in hand (at a show), or stick to buying graded cards.

Not much to say that hasn't been said, but yes I would also block a buyer who returned 4 cards.

To echo everyone's previous comments, I'd probably block you too. I'm about as generous as you can be when it comes to returns, but four with a seller in a short period of time just because they didn't grade out like you'd hoped? I'd be aggravated.

As for the seller, I've returned one thing to them and had a pleasant experience thereafter.

Ditto on the blocks..........I've bought TONS from Battersbox and find them to provide great scans and great service. Were the MK's on higher grade stuff or lower grade stuff? They are a huge operation and shipping high $ cards back and forth frequently would make it somewhat difficult. Plus there's the issue of who eats the shipping each way, etc.....good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Well, I have a small business, and frankly not all customers are worth having.

In regards to your situation, I would quickly grow weary of having to refund money and re enter a card into inventory 4 times from the same buyer.

The scan is pretty clear about what you are getting.

I do a ton of business with Battersbox and have always been satisfied. I'm hoping that they will bring plenty of inventory to the National in Chicago (last time it was there they brought nothing). If they do I'll be spending a lot of my budget at one table.

That being said, there are two things I note about them when I'm making purchases from them:

Their ebay "free shipping" isn't free. Check their catalog and compare with their ebay prices. The ebay cards are always a dollar or two more expensive. Not a problem if you're buying one or two cards as the shipping cost for catalog purchases would even out. But if you're buying a large number of cards from them you are in effect paying postage on each and every "free shipping" card.

Their grading is also a little more generous then I would prefer. Their EX is closer to most others VG.

That being said....every purchase I make from them I go in knowing these truths already and I continue to buy cards from them.

BTW....they're running an ebay sale right now so excuse me while I go do some shopping.

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Yes, something similar happened to me. They sold me a Whitey Ford with no back scan that had writing on the back. I kept the card since the front presents well but it did come back a MK. Caveat emptor - No back on their postings = Probably writing on the back. They will tell you their grading system allows for writing on the back but that's a little underhanded in my opinion. Thanks for your response.

Lower-grade MKs- but see my post above about the 1951 Bowman Ford they sold me with no scan of the back that had writing on it.

Then as a seller don't peddle questionable raw cards that you know or should know are lower grades than you're selling them for. Furthermore, if you're tolerant as they come, then you're not going to block a buyer based on otherwise-cordial transactions, or are you? Finally, how much is 5 minutes of aggravation worth? If you value 5 minutes of annoyance more than $500, then go for it. My biggest criticism of the industry is rampant overselling practices both in brick-and-mortar and online but especially online.

If a buyer returns a card to me because I overlooked something then that is not a problem. I have offered to refund the full amount to a customer and let them keep the item on a couple of occasions. I post clear and concise scans of all my cards to try and avoid returns, but it does happen. Having a buyer repeatedly buy items and return them because they didn't grade out like they wanted is a problem. If a card gets to you in the shape you expected but doesn't grade high enough for you, do you return it?

It's not aggravation to me if someone returns a card because of my mistake, it is aggravation if I have to deal with returns on several transactions with the same buyer because a TPG graded the cards a 4 instead of a 5.

Why do you insist on buying from Battersbox if they won't provide a back scan at your request? Why do you continue to buy from them if you have been burned on more than one occasion?

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Policies
 

It seems obvious the seller thought you were misusing the policy and had become a high maintenance customer with whom they no longer wanted to do business. That decision seems to annoy you. I get that. What more do you want here ?

Nothing. Just venting some frustration and a caveat emptor to the community if anyone finds it useful or is in a similar situation in the future.

I think this post is why you're taking so much heat. The card was listed as GOOD. To most of us here, we would agree that the card is accurately listed. You say that the crease down the center was 'deeper' than appears, but the seller provides a pretty clear front and back scan. You can clearly see that the crease is visible from the front AND the back. So, I'm not sure how much 'deeper' it could have been? If I had listed this card and you returned it, I would have blocked you too. Returning a card for a flaw they might have missed (pen mark on back) is one thing, but to return a card that was accurately described with detailed pictures is another thing...even if thre is a 'no questions asked' return policy.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...MScan11258.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...MScan11259.jpg

I had this happen to a card I listed, clear front and back scan, words "big crease" in the description, buyer gets it, says it was bigger than he thought. Card was listed in poor condition, wtf do you want, refunded and thankfully haven't sold to since.

Not to beat a dead horse on this one but again I believe the consensus, and certainly my opinion is that despite the return policy 4 returns is excessive.

I personally work in sales, and have worked in a few different car dealerships and other customer facing businesses. I have seen car deals passed on that made financial sense because the customer was a jerk or we just knew was going to create more problems down the road. Some people simply can't be pleased and a business is better off without these customers.

Now I'm not saying that you are necessarily one of these customers and I mean no offense. But since you asked the question, four returns in a relatively short period of time is enough of an indication for most sellers or business owners to decide you're not worth the trouble.

I'm just a raw guy and so have no real opinion that affects me directly re graded cards (in fact when I consign to a AH I expect them to grade them for me). However, since you are a self-admitted registry guy, why are you buying raw? Aside from the Ford episode and their customer service, maybe you just don't have enough experience yet how to buy raw over the internet? You'd probably be better of going to card shows, etc. As for an established online store, I'd think they would grade the cards they think should be graded. And if you think you are going to get a "deal" from these places, those instances will be few and far between. Just my opinion.

Collecting is an art and aesthetic opinions differ by collector, something that raw sellers often capitalize on by selling cards they probably know have some defect. I have found sellers (obviously not Battersbox) who consistently send out gradable product.

Here are more images of one of the cards I returned due to a MK qualifier that I'm getting pilloried for:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30435.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30436.jpg

I cannot detect the marks but maybe one of the stone-throwers in glass houses on here can point out the obviousness of the defects.

Saving money is not a trait inherent to non-Registry collectors...

Yeah, they didn't say "big crease." Furthermore, there is a "depth" to a card since it's a three-dimensional object that a 2D scan makes really hard to detect. Maybe you called it out in your post and people are saying this is so obvious, but the card was even less presentable than it appeared - In my opinion for that price.

In case anyone ever wondered why I'm such a big fan of buying and selling at shows, this thread again proves there is nothing like actually seeing cards in person.

The other issue with Battersbox and many LARGE sellers.....on lower grade stuff they don't spend an inordinate amount of time inspecting the stuff when they're listing it. They do a cursory look. I can only see a little black mark on the back side of that card in the border that looks like it COULD be an ink mark or it could just as easily be a print mark too. Also remember the graders aren't infallible as well. I don't play the registry game but I'm assuming you're trying to buy something described as VG or VGEX and hit an EX in this case? A $30-$40 card, grading at $8-$10 and try to get it to a $60-$70 card? As for the 53 card, flatbed scanning can hide some stuff obviously. It looked like a low grade card to begin with but hard to get on you about that one.

I think you're skewering them about their return policy but it worked 100% of the time. You returned 4 cards which, in dollar terms, represented 40-50% of your $1600 gross buy. They made a business decision to block you from bidding. Maybe that's just an automatic thing after four returns from a single buyer. Have you called or emailed them to see what their excuse is?

If you can't detect the marks with the card in hand (and I can't detect the mark on from my computer), why does it bother you so much what PSA said? You're obviously collecting slabs and flips, not cards.

Edited to add: Furthermore, how do you know that PSA didn't get it wrong? What if there really is NO mark on the card? Why are you trusting PSA over your OWN EYES?

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No one is throwing stones and no one is being pilloried. You asked for feedback. There's no malice intended so please don't become defensive just because it may differ from what you expected.

Isn't a card only worth what the last person was willing to pay for it?

That Mantle is low grade. I've bought some t's from Battersbox and I get exactly what I expect to get.

Did they charge you a restock fee?

I would if you sent back half of what you purchased from me.

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Grade
 

Out of curiousity what were you expecting the 1958 Topps #418 to grade from PSA or SGC?

The reason I ask is you paid Battersbox $79.50 for a card they grade VG and it not centered well.

A PSA 4 recently sold for $64.99, had no bids at $79.99, sold for $97, SGC 5 sold for $83.

PSA 3's sold for or had no bids from $45 to $77.

+100...

Steve (the OP), you started this thread and people responded honestly (including myself). What more did you want?

Jeff

It shows sold but there was a discount applied to the card as it was part of a larger order. It was not $79.50 though. Expected no qualifiers, not a numerical grade per se. Not to worry, yesterday I found a PSA 3 for $55 as replacement.

Jeff -Not looking for anything further. Again, as I said to another member, it's just a general sharing of experience for future members with a similar problem, whether this seller or related to general raw-card buying as a whole. Before I posted I searched this problem on the forum and couldn't find a previous case of it so decided to start the thread. Currently just responding to offshoots of the post on various comments.

Message received. If someone uses a seller's open return policy four times in a rather short amount of time and has his returns honored, he might be banned from future auctions without notice by that seller. Got it.

Got it
 

No one can say that Tod is not a fast study:)

And how long will it take for you to return that one??

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Haha!!!! You're a f***** moron. You come on here crying, "Waaa!!!! Waaa!!!! They blocked me!!! Boo hoo!!!", acting like they did something wrong, when they didn't. There isn't a card collector on the planet who wouldn't have blocked your dumb ass after your bullshit returns. You abused their return policy, you tool. And you're crying about it????? Everyone on here is trying to be polite in their responses to you, but I've had enough. You're a pathetic, entitled f****** douchebag!!!!!

Sincerely,
Mr. Troll

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You're done. Under no circumstances is this sort of language or personal attack ever acceptable on the board. While some may not have agreed with the original poster, everything that I've read in this thread up to this point was at least clean. For everyone else, now that "JollyElm" won't be joining us for a while, please do your part to make sure the language stays clean. We don't mind a debate/argument once in a while but keep it civil. Thanks much....

For what it's worth I think the mk on the aaron mantle is due to an ink less pen drag down hanks face.

.

Mr Jolly Elm is very sad right now.

Jolly Elm is a Weeping Willow :D

He's got the Deep Elem Blues....(only Grateful Dead fans or obscure music fans will get this).

Jeff

I would absolutely block a buyer that returned as much as this.

I have bought hundreds of $ from BattersBox and never had a problem.

Or Bobby Jackson. He recorded a version of this song in Clovis in 1957. It was issued on Gold - Air. It was then reissued Nationally on Brunswick 55026. How is that for obscure trivia! By the way, the other side of the record was Wow, Man!

+1. For me, the time to buy older ungraded cards and expect them to receive a high TPG grade expired with the '90's--I used to do it then, purchasing at shows, and carrying a 16X power loupe to rule out trimmed cards by examining the edges.

Best of luck in your pursuit, though,

Larry

Respectfully, I don't think you get it re the business end.

Happy hunting regardless,

Larry

Unsubscribe

I can understand why you wish to stop seeing the responses to this thread. Considering the overwhemling majority of the posters said they would not do any business with you after your OP, and your unwilingless to listen (unsubscribe), sounds like they have a point about you.

I think you would be far better off saving up your money and just attending the bigger shows in Piitsburgh and Cleveland so you can see the cards in person. That way, you can find cards which meet your standards with no questions asked and if you are not satisfied you don't have to buy anything.

Threads like this are why I'm a big fan of shows and stores and building interpersonal relationships and in person

Rich

I think the thread is getting redundant, and, yes, while I did unsubscribe, I figured at least one last JollyElm would want to get a word in edgewise. So yes I have listened to what seems to be dealers piling on, Rich, and thanks for your totally unnecessary advice at this point in the thread. For the record, I have made less than 10 returns out of 1,000 or so purchases, so I will safely disregard irritating generalizations such as yours and move on.

These are mainly collectors BTW not dealers who are making these comments. Just a quick clarification.

I didn't make purchases from individual collectors, I made them from a dealer. The majority of responses are written from what people think a dealer would do, or what they would do in one-on-one private collector transactions. I would not deal with individual collectors the same way or even a dealer I trusted, or at least one that had the ability to communicate, unlike this one. Moreover the easy answer keeps getting posted based on knee-jerk reactions like "+1" over and over again. Enough is enough.

In response to the other guy above who was going on sanctimoniously about how wrong I am (when, to wit, I wasn't trying to get cards to be graded HIGHER than what was advertised, just AT what was advertised), the business motivation here that I don't understand is: To make as much money as possible on what amounts to overgraded material from the customers they feel like selling to who, incidentally, don't challenge them on their grading, with zero communication other than robo-feedback, with minimal hassle and constant solicitation of positive eBay feedback.

As a final point, I have never made a return to a private collector UNLESS IT WAS A COUNTERFEIT. Trollling (or overly didactic) responses only serve to worsten the sting because they (the dealer) blocked me so I am the only one who loses here. I was wrong in this situation but only got truly annoyed when no communication happened from the supposedly eminently justified dealer.

Finally, consider the source of the previous accusatory comments: "Look for our show listings in the Net 54 Calendar section." I regret asking about this topic in the first place due to the Jolly Elms of this thread but as I said in the "OP", I understood which way this was going to go from the outset and I said several times I got the answer from the community. Further personal attacks just show that the respondent is either illiterate or can't follow what I just said.

Winner
 

You win, we all give up. Congratulations. Now you can let it go

Tell us about what you like to collect

+1 :)

Perhaps instead of arguing with everyone in the thread, you should listen to the opinions dealers and collectors have provided.

I believe any seller would have blocked you in this situation, whether they sold one card per year on ebay, or 100k per month.

The suggestion to purchase cards in person from shows or shops, even if it came from a show promoter, appears to be a valid one for you. I would recommend giving it some consideration.

As a fellow PSA registry collector, I woud personally recommend sticking to cards that are already PSA graded if you're going to buy online.

Even before I became a show promoter, I always stressed how beneficial it was to purchase cards when you can see them in person.

Even if it slightly self-promotional, and at $1 per attendee, I'm not getting wealthy on that front, there is something to be said for interpersonal interaction between buyers and sellers. I will also say that approximately 99 percent of our attendees walk out with cards for either their collector or for re-sale. The only collector I remember being shut out at the last show was a 19th century collector. For him, I think the National is where he needs to be.

I will also point out in the opinion scoreboard

Jolly Elm Trolls (JETS): 15

People who agree with OP: 1

OP: 1

It's truly rare when the Net 54 community ends up at almost 100 percent but you have accomplished that. Congratulations to you on that achievement.

JETs
 

Darren might appreciate having a whole team named after him.

LOL! I blocked people for doing invalid bid retractions. Yea, I probably cut off my nose to spite my face, but I don't care! I'm selling cards for .99 cents on Ebay in world dominated by PWCC and Probstein. So, like someone else said, I block people for less. I know the OP doesn't want to hear it, nor does he care, but I would block him too. Life is too short to deal with issues.

Truly your own loss. If you could get over your own ego you would find that Net54 is one of (if not) the best resources for cards and memorabilia. I agree with others, perhaps in-person purchases are better for you in the future.

Good luck!

Jeff

+1.

As much as I like to peruse Net54 and ebay, nothing will ever beat going to a show and seeing all the cards right in front of you and where youcan get them in hand.

Btw
 

Now that we agree that seeing cards in person is a good idea for many buyers I also want to say something else positive about Batters box in Houston.

Way back in the day, I used to work with one of their main people at shows (Paul S.) and he supplied us at Beckett with a complete checklist of the 1st series of the 1967 Venezuelan Topps cards. I had always wondered why the set began at like #111 or so and thanks to Paul's help we cobbled together a checklist which was then unknown to the hobby.

Included in the checklist were, if memory serves me correctly -- 1967 cards of Bobby Cox and Dave Concepcion, both issued far before their American Topps rookie cards.

Regards
Rich