PWCC Certified High End
 

I am a fan of provenance (but thinks the advertisement aspect makes these a little gimmicky), so I'm indifferent towards these. I think it's great that there is a more detailed database for relatively expensive cards.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=944417

Discussed on the PSA/Collector's Universe forums, Brent from PWCC came on to answer questions about it. He was also a little dismayed that the certificate had "caliber" spelled "calibur".

Dumb

Sorry, "Certified" Dumb

Great, now if I win a card from them that they decide is high end I have to clean the GDMF sticker crud off the slab. Thanks for handing me a cleaning project in addition to a card, jackass.

Sweet! "Buy the holder, not the card, and look for the sticker".

Don't say it! Don't say it!!

"We insist on auction integrity ...." yet their auctions are rife with fraud, their scans hilariously doctored and misleading -- and now the snake oil salesman is telling you to trust his eyes and not yours.

In fairness, I think they have toned down the scans to the point where they look pretty natural to me anyhow.

After they got caught. And then lied after getting caught.

Yes, one of those smoking gun cross-exam moments.

Personally, I like the idea, and am going to start my own certification ----


Attachment 192555

And Mantle card they "certify" as above average for grade actually has bad stains on back... I guess they only certify the fronts.

I don't think they are certifying that the card is "above average for the grade" I think they are just declaring the card to be "high end".

Read their certificate -- it says it's superior "relative to its technical grade."

They are saying that the "eye appeal" of the card exceeds the technical grade. Generally those cards sell for higher amounts than their regular counterparts. They are making no promises to future bumps of cards.

this is why their auctions go for a huge premium and also why I stay away from them

I'll take the certified Thomas.

Which end is certified? :D:D:D

I have no problem with this. I can't afford to win a PWCC auction anyway.
Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy. Very impressed with everything about PWCC. They Are Just trying to do something different from the competition in this case.

"Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy."

Oh I agree, see posts 76 and 78. Or the whole thread if you wish.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=177348

Bill Mastro was a stand up guy too according to the oracles of Net 54.

Adam, I pretty much agree with You...

I Also have a couple of questions/thoughts... I MiGHT even be way off base with the 1st one, However I've seen some glues atmospherically destroy cardboard... Are theses New Owners somewhat "Test Subjects"?

1) The glue that is used for these labels usually have fairly strong chemicals in them.
The presents of a high toxin in the vicinity of cardboard could lead to damage. The Plastic MiGHT be the 1st to go!
With that said, Does anyone think that PSA will eventually Void their warranty of the card that is holdered with this PWCC sticker placed on it?
Maybe PWCC conversed with PSA about this already... oR Not.

2nd) Will PWCC eventually Place their Label on a Card like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Bowman-...c75&rmvSB=true

Last thought... it will be interesting to see what this PSA 4 Mantle Card (w/ the PWCC sticker) Sells for. A PSA 5 w/o the PWCCsticker just Sold for $6,100! It was the Mantle from the Thread, "Bryant vs Mantle"... Will See Aye!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Bowman-...557&rmvSB=true

Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

My one word response is "why?"

LMAO, classic!!!

funny lots of buyers say tons of shilling and his auctions sell for record amounts and sellers say sell to low....

Bobby said:
Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

What you mean you cant afford to win PWCC auctions.. $200 cards going for $50 all the time seem very affordable!..

Exactly...while some of Brent's cards do set records, I believe he is also experiencing some sort of backlash. People, like yourself, who assume all their cards are being shilled, and just assume everything is going to go to some stratospheric level compared to similar cards in similar grades, that they just refuse to bid with him.

As far as the new certificate label he is applying to some cards, I understand why he is doing it, but I think it is a bad idea. You put yourself in a position of second guessing the grader. There is nothing wrong with promoting a card. Robert Edwards does it all the time (ie, The card has been graded authentic, however, we don't see where it is trimmed). However, they don't include a little certificate saying the card is wrongly graded. Let's get back to the old fashioned basics of letting the scans speak for themselves. Have genuine scans, and let the bidders be able to enlarge the scans. That is it. Period. He has a good model going. Why mess with it??

I guess you didn't get the memo, you are supposed to shill your own auctions.

We don't do that. We believe in the auction system. However, we have seen alot of cards fall through the cracks. If we lose quite a bit on a card/consignment, we just try to make it up on the buy. Circle of life.

Why is PWCC putting in that certificate?

The answer is the same as the answers to these questions:

Why did PWCC provide misleading scans?

Why is shill bidding rampant in their auctions?

To make money!

This little certificate of theirs is benign, just a way a business is trying to make some of its offerings stand out. In stark contrast the other two things mentioned by CalvinD above, namely juiced scans and shills, are inherently bad.

I have read the PSA boards and find it hysterical how grown men are in an uproar over an eBay baseball card seller adding a piece of paper to some cards he feels look better than the assigned grade---- it's all just opinions. Some guy over there was like, "So my cards without the new PWCC sticker are ugly now?!" Boo hoo!

Personally, I can use my own two God-given eyes just fine to tell me what card is better looking than another. I'll never get why some need a grade or sticker from ANYONE, be it a TPG or PWCC, to tell them what's best. I didn't care for the grade whore attitude when I was a kid in school. I certainly don't like it in card collecting as an adult. But as always, to each his own.

That said, it's Brent's choice to flag by whatever means he wants cards that look way better than the grade. I see no harm in such cards getting their just due and moment in the spotlight, as they are better than some higher graded cards despite having been given a lower technical grade.

Mets Baseball...I understand your argument. I think the point being made is that ALMOST ALL card collectors can tell what cards look best for their assigned grade. What makes Brent's eyes better than your own?? If you send him a consignment that YOU consider to be high end, and Brent doesn't see it that way, therefore you don't receive the "certificate", how would that make you feel as a consignor? Would you send him more consignments, or cut him off completely? Especially when we see in the future those little extra slips of paper add alot of money to the value of the card? I know that is assuming that is what happens....me personally, I think it will. We can all follow these auctions as they end and determine what type of added multiple these winning "golden tickets" add to the value of the card.

Like many here I personally don't need his sticker, but see zero harm in it. I also don't think it will materially impact the cards that receive it, as the mass of collectors know a card with extra eye appeal, and we have seen such cards command premiums far above the historical average price for their grades before Brent's new sticker.

If I send PWCC a consignment and Brent doesn't deem any of my cards worthy of that little sticker, that is just fine by me. If I thought one of my cards deserved the little sticker and he didn't, again, that's his choice, and I won't and can't impose my will on him.

Just because he's giving his opinion doesn't mean his eyes are better than mine. The same can be said of the grading companies. I don't think their eyes are better than mine, either. Just because someone is giving their opinion, doesn't mean their eyes are better, or anyone receiving the opinion thinks the opinion-giver's eyes are better. That's an assumption being made by some that's logically the problem; let Brent or anyone else give their opinion. Some will hear it/see it and agree, some won't. That's the world.

I am also willing to bet that 9 of 10 times or more the cards that receive this little sticker thing will deserve it. Brent sees enough cards to know when one has eye appeal beyond its grade. And such cards deserve a premium over the VCP average for their grade. Brent acknowledging what anyone's eyes can see with a little sticker seems like a total non-issue, to me at least.

I'm with you on this. Don't need the sticker, but don't care either way.

I love cards like the ones that hypothetically would receive this sticker: 4s that look like 6s, etc. I use my own eyes to decide which ones those are, but someone else saying which ones he thinks are special is his choice and right. For example, I agree with his Goudey Ruth but don't agree with his 51B Mick that received the sticker. It's all just opinions. Who cares if they are in the form of a flip, a sticker, or an auction description? The card is the thing and it's always right there for us to look at, just ignore all the opinions and noise and look at the card is what I do.

I'm quite sure Yogi would say "PWCC's auctions are so high, no one bids on them anymore."

It's a competitive market to get consignments, so I am sure Brent is just looking for an edge. I personally think it's meaningless, but I don't see any deception in it. I have seen on some of Probstein's higher ticket items slogans such as "looks better than the grade" so it's just more marketing.

To me it's just a glorified business card

Should just be a this card has nice centering certificate

I find it somewhat pompous and offensive. So now this Seal and Certificate has to follow this card around after PWCC's stickering, or it will lose it's perceived lofty status? And for what? Because PWCC has determined, without full explanation, that it is a "High End" card? Let the buyer decide that. Also, what if you consign an identical card with PWCC, and you don't get the designation? I think you just might lose some bids to the "High End" card. It could easily slant the auction results.

I don't think a card is going to have a "lofty status" just because of this PWCC sticker, and if the card is indeed high end, it will never lose that deserved status if this little opinion sticker doesn't follow it around. The card never changes if it's truly high end.

The fact is that a great looking card has its status because of itself, not a sticker-- be it from PSA or PWCC. If Card X is indeed high end and does have this sticker, and the owner throws the sticker out-- the card is still awesome and will always command its due premium.

PSA doesn't give an explanation for their stickers either, it's worth noting.

Even if the cards in question did not have this sticker, if the mass of collectors agree the card is high end, such a card will get more bids than lesser-looking examples of the same card in the same auction.

+1

Ditto. At a minimum, it's annoying.

Actually, in the CU/PSA thread on this topic, Brent has said that a buyer only has to ask them to remove the sticker before mailing, if that is the request. They will remove it for free before sending it to you. So you don't have to worry about cleaning it off unless you buy it from a middle-man.

Fair enough, provided it leaves no residue. Might be nice to include that within their auction description too.

All stickers will leave residue, no? Unless Teflon now makes one.

He claims it will come off with Goo Gone. So, maybe a trace, but nothing to really worry about.

Residue can almost always be removed, in my experiences.

The better approach might be to offer to affix the sticker if the lucky winner wanted it.

Absolutely.

Actually, I think that many will opt to have the sticker left off, so if PWCC gets many "remove my sticker" emails, they might just do away with them all together and leave the business card as the High End cert.

Are these stickers serialized with their own coa and will pwcc keep a database so we can check on them later?

Idea taken from coin graders. Stupid idea.

That is why the best strategy is to set a snipe with the maximum amount you are willing to pay.

apparently.

Good to see you back Q!

PWCC Auctions - following up
 

We try not to involve ourselves in the discussion because we view the boards as a valuable collector to collector discussion, free of seller influence. We want to take a moment to comment here to simply inform the community of our stance and hopefully limit any confusion.

A couple key points:
1) We are only assessing the eye appeal of a card; not the technical grade. We are not qualified to comment on the technical accuracy of a 3rd party grade and, frankly, we PWCC would not exist without companies like PSA, SGC, and Beckett. We have the utmost respect for the service these companies provide and have zero interest in second-guessing their work.
2) The PWCC ‘High End’ designation has been around since 2012. Nothing has changed here, except we are now certifying it to allow this designation to stay with the card (if the buyer so chooses). I’ll explain more the logic behind this program below.
3) The PWCC High End Certification only applies to those cards which appear FAR better than the assigned technical grade (even though the technical grade may be completely accurate). Case in point, from our entire auction #5 (over 12,000 lots), we applied the High End Certificate to just over 3 dozen cards. The point of this service is not to highlight every strong card we sell; rather to highlight only those cards which appear FAR NICER than the assigned grade. As such, a card grade PSA 8 that appears very strong for the grade would not qualify, but a PSA 8 that looks like a PSA 9 might. This may sound like a subtly but it’s a key distinction for us.
4) We are not implying that we at PWCC are smarter than other advanced collectors. What is unique to our situation is that we are lucky enough to physically hold each card we sell. This gives us the opportunity to review a card beyond what any scan can provide. Bottom line, we do our best to make scans as life-like as humanly possible (despite accusations on some of the sillier posts) but even this is not the same as holding the card in your own hand. For those who are not advanced collectors of a particular issue, our opinion on the eye appeal of a card may carry an even greater weight.
5) We do not charge for this service and the consignor has zero influence over our decision. We are placing our company’s brand alongside the High End Certification so rest assured there will be no shortage of discipline applied to the assessment and oversight of the program. I don’t ask anyone to take this on faith, but I do ask that you give us the opportunity to prove our consistency and steadfastness over time before rendering a presumptive negative verdict.

Why certify cards as ”High End”?
As the hobby matures, the value of eye appeal has taken center stage. 15 years ago most collectors were content simply buying the holder. While the technical grade is still the single most important factor determining value, the eye appeal of a card relative to that technical grade is a close 2nd with truly special examples often bringing 25-50% premiums (sometimes more) than other examples with the same technical grade but lower quality eye appeal. We certify cards as “‘High End” to highlight their extremely special eye appeal for the grade. We feel we are able to make this determination because we are the largest broker of investment-calibur (caliber… just kidding) cards in the country and subsequently have handled more copies of more cards that most collectors. For those who consider themselves experts on a particular issue, I suspect our Certification will factor less into your value assessment of a card we sell.

Why use a Sticker & COA?
Over the last 36 months we have seen a growing epidemic of various other sellers copying our original ”High End”’ model and referring to many of the cards they sell in similar ways. This flood of “High End” labeled cards has confused our original goals, so the new High End Certification aims to formalize the designation and hopefully give those rare deserving cards the proper stage. The other impetus for including a sticker stems from countless past buyers who’ve complained about having purchased one of our “High End” designated cards (and paying a premium) but then losing some of the value as soon as the card sells. The sticker aims to provide buyers with an assessment that can be kept with the card, and then leveraged again if the card should ever be resold.

What’s the criteria for which cards are Certified?
The determination for which cards receive the High End Certification is obviously subjective, but generally applies to cards which we feel show eye appeal of a full grade (or more) higher than the assigned technical grade. For lower graded cards (i.e. 1-5s) the eye appeal may need to be closer to 2 grades higher (in some cases) for that card to be considered. In grades of 8-10 may we may assign “High End” if we feel the card shows eye appeal 0.5 grade higher (i.e. 8s that show like strong 8.5s, or 8.5s that appear like 9s) simply because the value difference is extreme in these high grades. As a general rule the market value on a card needs to be >$250 to qualify for consideration. Really important point is that we are only trying to highlight those cards which show eye appeal of a much higher grade; not simply for strong qualities within the assigned grade. This is exactly why the certification is so rarely applied… more often than not, if a card truly looks NM-MT then it’s already in a PSA 8 holder. However, 1% of the time that NM-MT card receives a NRMT 7 (probably for a good technical reason) but we feel it fair that we highlight that card as being special, because it absolutely is special.

Other comments worth mentioning:
i) Yes, we absolutely will remove the sticker for any buyer that requests it. Once removed and cleaned the sticker DOES NOT leave any residue.
ii) Yes, a full database is maintained (starting with this auction #5) for all High End Certified cards. If the high bidder or a future owner wishes to remove the sticker or have a card reholdered we can reapply the certification at a later date, free of charge (only need to pay return shipping).
iii) We will be reprinting the COAs to fix the spelling error, and we may expand on the language on the card to further clarify our intent and limit confusion (we are not second guessing the 3rd party graders).
iv) For those coin collectors familiar with the CAC sticker, our High End Certification has zero overlap. The CAC sticker is largely a validation of a coin’s technical grade (essentially a second review of the coin’s assessment). Again, our High End Certification is strictly commenting on the superior eye appeal of the card, not the accuracy of its technical grade (which is accurate and justified in most instances).
v) The PWCC High End designation is very rare (only 41 cards out of 12,700 items in our #5 auction). There are literally thousands of the cards in our #5 auction which we feel are strong and impressive cards for their respective grade, and many of these are worthy of a premium. The High End Certificate is strictly for cards which appear far beyond the assigned grade, not simply a strong example within the grade.

We very much appreciate the members who have chosen to be constructive in their comments on this board (some are more than constructive than others :)). We will never shy away from constructive criticism and encourage any Net54 member who has feedback on this program to email me directly: brent@pwccauctions.com.

Thanks to all who follow our auctions.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC

Thanks for the well written response, Brent. As someone who has tried many different things, without most of them reaching the success I had hoped for, I admire your thinking outside the box and doing something different. (even if CAC for coins has been around for years)

Now, that being said, I might be like many on this board and not feel the need to have another pair of eyes looking at my cards. But that is ok, I will just ask for no sticker and all is well. Your "High End" process won't hurt me. Good luck in your endeavors Brent.

Lots of effort there, Brent; maybe you could have taken some of that time to stop the wide-spread shill bidding that goes on in your auctions.

Is that constructive criticism?

As someone who has had cards reholdered due to adhesive marks, I'd prefer the stickers be optional.

At a high level, I think there is a trend in the hobby to really value centering to the extent that sometimes I see a lower grade card sell for more than a high grade example and when I look closely, I can often assign centering as the explanation i.e. well centered cards with soft corners can get strong prices. The other thing I notice is that the TPG companies, in my opinion, do not seem to place much weight on a card having a clean surface. I've often seen cards graded 7+ with significant toning/discoloration and similar bright clean cards go unrewarded and wind up with low grades despite having somewhat of a pack fresh look. In theory, in my opinion again, if the TPG companies adjusted for these two issues, the discrepancies between "eye appeal" and "technical grade" would start to go away.

Jeff, always taking the fun out of things with honesty and reality. :)

Sticker Unnecessary - Unless Slabs Can Magically Change Flip #s
 

No need for a sticker. The slab's flip # does not change. A simple COA with the slab flip #, PWCC "certification #" and date of sale would eliminate all concerns about residue.

As for the need for this "service", I have no problem with the auctioneer stating that an item appears superior for the grade (in his opinion). I don't think most experienced collectors would take that into account when considering bidding on an item.

However, if I were in Brent's position I think I would be focusing on first addressing other, more commonly mentioned issues and concerns that get raised about his auctions instead of creating a marketing "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.

Despite the popular opinion on the forums, it certainly seems this new program is having the desired effect, at least on the 51 bowman mantle. I figured it would close at what it's at now, and there is still a week left.

I knew it would have that effect. If you have Charles Schwab telling you that a certain stock is good, then of course you are going to listen to him, and many people will buy the stock, pushing it up. These are the same pool of bidders that bid on an Art Shell PSA 10 card that looked like a '6' at best. These are the same pool of bidders that bid ungodly amounts on raw cards that look nowhere near as good in hand and they could care less. Nothing surprises me.

We need to go deeper...
 

Personally, I'm going after one of these cards. If I win, I'm going to get one of these exceptionally rare "calibur" error certs slabbed (who cares about the card) and then consign it back to PWCC and pray for the "high end" designation...

Imagine that: A "certified high end" "certified high end" error cert. $$$ :D

In all seriousness, I'm actually a satisfied PWCC customer. On a relative basis, way better than 90% of what is on eBay. Yep, you pay a premium, but the scans are decent, the descriptions are factual, the communication is responsive and helpful, the shipping is quick and well packaged.

From someone that just got back into the hobby a few years ago, I think that PWCC makes the old "buy the card, not the grade" adage easier to grok and execute against. Is this needed for really experienced collectors? Probably not. But for the rest of us, it really helps fill a void in the marketplace.

and the same pool of bidders that paid 50 for your 150 dollar valued card!..lol

PWCC - new thread
 

We have taken the lead to address the misc concerns raised by a couple members regarding our auctions (scan accuracy, shill bidding, etc). I encourage any interested member to please view that other thread and post your comments.

Thread: PWCC & eBay - help us improve the hobby

Regards,

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC