OT - Patriots Deflate Report
 

In my opinion, based on the league findings, the Patriots victory in the playoff game tarnished with the deflated footballs should mean that the Patriots forfeit that win. Thus, they lose their Super Bowl victory over Seattle as they obviously won't have been in the game to begin with. That's what happens to Olympic gold medalists that have been found to have cheated.

That would put a stop to this type of thing happening again in the future real fast. Forget about a small fine on the team and/or Tom Brady. Maybe disqualifying them from postseason play in the 2015-2016 season might do the trick as well..........

If they had hard proof, I would 100% agree....but this "they likely probably kinda sorta perhaps knew" BS is just plain stupid. Besides, there's no way a slightly deflated ball gives them a 30+ point advantage, no matter how you slice and dice it.

You are referring to a preponderance of the evidence standard, the one used in US civil cases for 200 years.

Oh, and the week before the Indy game, when the Ravens believed the Pats used the same tactic, New England trailed most of the game, winning in the last 5 minutes 35-31 with Brady having one of his best post-season games (360 yds, 33 completions and 3 TDs). Probably had no effect there either, right? The team that texts showed had deflated balls throughout the early season and whose equipment guy referred to himself as the Deflator before the season started I'm sure did nothing of the sort in that playoff game.

Todd, I live in Seattle. I am in no way defending NE...but OJ probably killed Nicole too. If the proof's not there, it's not there.

You truly have no understanding of what you speak. Sad really.

Most are making WAY too big of an issue over this.

Ya think?!

Vikings heating balls on the sidelines...
Falcons pumping noise into the stadium...
Browns GM texting plays down to the coach...
Dolphins clearly tampering with SUH before the start of free agency
It goes on and on , yet you hear nothing about these things.

When it comes to the Pats, it's a media frenzy on such a minor issue. When your on top for as long as them, everyone is out to get them.

Can we please move this discussion to the watercooler?

Much ado about nothing. To me this has less significance than George Brett's pine tar bat incident.

I think a lot of it has to do with track record more than jealousy. Spy gate was a black eye on the franchise, and while this is a small thing, it appears that Brady was either lying or covering up his involvement. If ball inflation is such a small deal, then why deny?

Just let this die already!

... many of the above listed examples have far greater effect on a game (including added PA noise) and/or are more serious team/upper management violations. Add my Niner's "probably, likely, inappropriate" cap practices during the mid '90's to the list of far greater "probably" crimes.

Honestly, I think the Patriots exploited a brilliant loop hole and deserve some credit for it. I'm a Redskins fan with absolutely no ties for to the Pats, but after this whole fiasco and witnessing Brady and Bellicheck's complete disregard for the rules I started to root for them. Seriously, they outsmarted the system and won. I say good for them.

The balls used in the second half were different...and Brady threw up even more points. The rest of the country is JEALOUS of 15 years of success.

Is anyone upset with Rodgers who admits he over inflates the footballs?

No? Really?

Then be quiet.

It`s all a plot by Belichick and Brady, "the whole world hates us boys and it`s us against the world". Really though it looks like the NFL wanted to nail the Pats and they did. Brady gets a 2 game suspension, it`s reduced to one, and the Pats get fined around 250 K. So for the Thursday nite opener the Pats are minus Brady and the Steelers will be down Levon Bell. Jimmy Garap. goes 18/26 for 265 yds and 2 TD`s.

As a Saints fan, I just want to see Goodell punish someone else for a change.

Since the NFL went through such great lengths to investigate this, might as well hand out a punishment commensurate with the investigation.

+1. Yup, a little air out of the footballs and filming defenses. That's why they've been so good for 15 years. Belichick is playing chess while the rest of the league is playing checkers. Neither Belichick or Brady pays any lip service to the national media and that's why ESPN, the NFL Network, etc... all have an agenda to beat them down with the morality stick. Brunell crying on the air about Brady flouting the integrity of the game? He should be crying over his mediocre career....

I guess since all of their tricks have been found out, the Pats will certainly go 6-10 next year....either that, or we'll win yet another division title.

Haters gunna hate. :D

truth!

Maybe the NFL can also go back to 2007, challenge the Tyree catch on the basis that all five of the Giants O-Linemen were holding on the play and negate that Super Bowl win for the G-Men.

Oh, and if that play happened to the Patriots, everyone would be screaming that Brady was in the grasp and the play should have been blown dead.

Just sayin.... :D

I'm more upset about the idiotic pass call at the end of the Super Bowl than I am about the under-inflated balls. The NFL should investigate Pete Carroll's brain.

Love GB in KC!!!!!

That will go down in history as possibly the worst call of all time. I couldn't believe it. Carroll should be proud of himself.

I think possibly the worst call in the history of sports. It was that bad.

Who knows if the deflation gave them a competitive advantage or was simply a result of testing the balls. What matters is that they, mainly Brady, clearly lied to investigators about knowledge of efforts to deflate footballs. That is what requires some amount of disciplinary action on the part of the NFL.

+ 1

I can't believe some people actually defend their actions.

Great lesson for kids: It's ok to cheat if everybody else does it, no matter how minor it may seem or how much impact it has. :rolleyes:

Some of the logic used in this thread is baffling.

Why should the sports lesson for kids be any different from what we show them in business (i.e. finance, oil, pharmaceutical, politics, etc...)? The most successful people in all of these fields are the ones that push the rules right to the edge of the law. There was nothing in the Wells report that explicitly demonstrated that Brady said "hey guys, I want you to break the rules of the game...".

From the good folks at The Onion :p



NFL Investigating Whether Patriots Played Game With Properly Inflated Vince Wilfork



http://i.onionstatic.com/onion/2843/3/original/1200.jpg

http://www.theonion.com/section/sports/

I find it no different than old school pitchers hiding Vaseline on their bodies or using a bottle cap to scratch up the ball. It's ingenuity to me. Whitey Ford, Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton and Tommy John have all admitted to it. Some of the greats back in the day used to do it as well.

Heck, Mickey Mantle and Pete Rose have been thought to use corked bats. I think it's fun watching players try to get away with these things.

Ok, so 3 of the 4 balls tested from the Colts were also underinflated but the refs didn't have time to check the rest of them because it was time for the 2nd half to start. WOW!
Also, the way I read it, Brady had overinflated balls (I think it was during a Jets game) at almost 16psi. I'm sure he wanted them "deflated" - but to say he wanted to cheat and set them below the 12.5 level - I see no proof.

Maybe i'm wrong but I just don't see the smoking gun here

I know Brady and the Patriots are trying to pass this off as a non-issue, but in all seriousness you obviously under inflated the ball because it gave you an advantage you didn't have when the ball was properly inflated. That to me is the key issue.

You can't change the past but the NCAA does make a habit of stripping titles to prove a point. I don't think the NFL can turn back the clock in the same way. But I do think the Patriots should be losing a ton of draft picks in the coming years and Brady should be suspended. They suspended Josh Gordon for almost a full year for smoking weed. Brady should get at least the same punishment for cheating.

3 of the 4 balls tested from the Colts were also underinflated but the refs didn't have time to check the rest of them because it was time for the 2nd half to start.

11 of 12 tested footballs from the Patriots side were under inflated.

None of them were under inflated 2 hours before the game when they were checked by officials. NFL rules state that the footballs cannot be altered once they've been approved for game use. So here we have clear evidence of cheating.

So why do you think 3 of the 4 Colts balls were underinflated?

That "well they were doing it too" defense didn't work for the Saints.

Maybe the Pats over-inflated Seattle's ball before their last offensive play of the Super Bowl....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNf8wT5t8V8

Maybe they overinflated Pete Carroll's big dumb head.

Carroll
 

Remember the first rule ;)

Although given the play call, maybe that is more of a fact than an opinion

No, the lesson here to kids is this: Never admit you did anything wrong, never.

First, claim the rule you broke is a stupid rule anyway.
Next, claim that breaking the rule did not help you, and you'd be in the same position either way.
Next, argue some law of science to explain that the effect of your rule-breaking is really a natural phenomenon.
Next, when shown that you committed an intentional, willful act to get around a rule, claim to the idiot crowd, which in this country is huge, that there is no smoking gun, signed confession, or HD quality video of your wrongdoing and thus there is no "proof".
At the same time, argue that there must be a conclusive, beyond a reasonable doubt finding that you broke the rule or else you did nothing wrong (thus showing your complete lack of understanding of how our system of justice functions as well as displaying at least a flawed set of ethics--never mind, though, the Law and Order viewers will have your back).
Next, throw it back on your accuser by claiming they're just jealous and always had it out for you (ain't deflection great?) and
Most of all, just make sure you keep on lying about it and that you keep your stories straight, because again rule #1

NEVER, EVER ADMIT YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG. There you go kids--words to live by.

Tsalem, how do you respond to the text messages between Patriots equipment managers directly referencing under inflating the footballs for Tom Brady? Are they fabricated? Even though they came directly from their own phones and can be easily verified by the carrier?

+1

Death, Taxes and the Patriots Cheating.

Clearly the Pats cheated. Clearly Brady lied. Clearly they received an unfair advantage. And just as clearly the NFL doesn't have the balls to take those wins away. That being said, I'd like to see Brady suspended for a few games for lying to the investigators and the Pats lose a first round pick. (For the record, I have no problem with the Pats or Brady -- I'm a Giants fan, we love Brady)

I agree. I don't think the NFL should take those games away. What would it accomplish? Do you think when shady college football programs have their wins stripped after the fact that it means a hill of beans to the teams they screwed over?

I think we should throw out the 144 page report and go with your paragraph above. Clearly you have a much better idea about what happened. Thanks for sharing - you saved me having to read the sports page today.

Tsalem can you respond to my question about how there are text messages between equipment managers specifically referencing under inflating footballs to Brady's liking? What's your stance on that? Pretty damning, no?

A big +1

I just don't understand the justifications people are making. I think the people that should be most disappointed are Patriot fans themselves but I haven't heard a single Pats fan do that. About the guy above saying that 3 of the Colts balls failed too... Way to manipulate the facts! They had two separate people test the balls and one found all 4 at 12.5 or above, the next found that three were below 12.5 by exactly .15, .20 and .35 respectively (I believe these measurements were after having played a half of football, too). You are seriously grasping at straws to equate that to the Patriots balls that hovered right around 11 for the most part (one even measuring 10.5)

I'm not a Patriots fan, but I have found myself defending them through this ordeal for some reason.... I guess I just think it's not a big deal.

I think they cheated. I think they were given an advantage from their cheating. I think they lied about cheating. I think they made efforts to conceal their cheating from the investigator(s). But I just don't think it's a big deal. People are throwing out random PSI measurements as if that means anything and are describing the differences of a football with 12 psi, 12.5 psi and 13 psi as if they know what they're talking about. This is no different than the "spit ball" in baseball and that pitch has been celebrated over the years (even though it is illegal). I seriously cannot see the difference.

Plus there is evidence that the deflation issue took place for at least a dozen games, leading up to the Colts game. For anyone that's tried to pass or catch a "rock hard" football in frigid conditions, the inflation level makes an enormous difference. Perhaps even more so for the kickers (which you never hear being discussed for some reason...)

I agree with Rhett, that Pats fans should be the angriest and are the most betrayed of the bunch. But unfortunately in sports these days, people tend to equate their own success (and sense of self-worth) to the teams and players that they worship. Turning a blind eye is not really surprising to me, for this reason. Would love hear just one Partiots Fan express some outrage and defy the masses...

Your calling me out to answer your questions when you can't answer mine..

Anyways, unless I missed it or read it wrong, my take was the balls were around 16 psi in the Jets game and he wanted them deflated. He was not asking them to under deflate the balls below the 12.5 PSI.

The big problem here in my opinion is the Wells report itself. The way it is written, he/they left so many things unanswered. There are holes everywhere and you can interpret things the way you see fit.

I am not saying Brady is innocent or guilty but i'm sure he will let the process run its course and we will all probably know more down the line.

Said the Joker to the Thief... :rolleyes:

I thought he said "There must be some kind of way out of here"? :D

Thanks for lightening the mood Denny. It's only sports. As a Pats fan, I don't care, but I respect everyone else's opinion that the Pats are big fat cheaters. I'll tell you one thing...it beats the sh*t out of the first 40 years of the franchise's history, so I'm not complaining about anything... thanks God it's Friday and Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there!! :D

100 seconds is enough time to go into the bathroom, take out 10 balls, ACCURATELY deflate them to 11.5, replace them, and come back out?

Guys, the way I figure it this matter is only at halftime. The next step is the punishment phase and then........drum roll please.......lawyers.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Shakespeare's King Henry VI

It will never happen. Why would the NFL " discipline " Brady? You can't fine him, and he certainly won't be required to miss games during the season. He will cost the NFL too much money if they suspend him for regular season games. Like him or not, Brady is still a HoF QB, and still would have won the games the Pats won and lost the games the Pats lost regardless of the football inflation. Again, most are making WAY too much out of a football that has been under inflated.

That said, what do your REASONABLY suggest in terms of a " discipline " for Brady.

They weren't accurately deflated. It was haphazard and they varied in pressure. That's described in the report to refute the "it was the atmosphere" defense.

Oh, btw, I'm a Patriots fan - and a big Brady fan - and I'm disappointed in their actions.

And even with that call, if Wilson makes a good throw, Seattle scores.

The NFL only cares about perceptions and not justice. After receiving some black eyes from the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson situations they'll come down hard on Brady. My guess is suspension of 2-4 games and loss of a draft pick(s).

Yeah, compared to knocking a woman senseless or beating a kid, "probably" knowing someone took a little air out of the football is a big deal. The resources devoted to this, as opposed to fixing the real problems in football (rampant domestic violence, concussions, etc.) is ridiculous.

It is about perception, and integrity of the game. IMO, people have at least a slight understanding that the NFL cannot very easily control players' lives off the field and that violence is a societal issue which, while PC demands an unforgiving, who-can-be-the-most outraged response, is often very complicated in its circumstances. People may wish to see nothing but choirboys, role models and medal of honor winners all over the field but, falling short of that, they at least believe and generally insist upon watching something where the flawed humans are engaged in a contest with common equipment and basic rules designed to create an even playing field. They are not necessarily Pollyannaish to think players are not trying to grab an edge, but nonetheless do not look kindly on rules breakers, especially those who show no contrition. If the game isn't fair and square, and if the League doesn't act as if its rules are all that important, there is both disgust and distrust at the game going forward.

My two cents.

Track record and lying.

I sure love the hypocritical Pat fans. They're just like their team and will deny, deny, deny no matter what. Their team gets caught cheating and they just make excuses for them cheating saying it didn't matter anyway because they scored so many points. Even though if you read the text messages, it's pretty clear they've been messing with the balls for months.

In a patriot fans mind, it's ok for their team to cheat but if another team cheats, they get yelled at and everything.

And I agree with what Todd said -- there's a limit to how much control the NFL can have over players' personal lives. But if they suspended Hardy 10 games for beating his girlfriend is that worse than cheating (again) during games? One act is personally disgusting, the other harms the game's integrity. Suspend Brady for the same 10 games and you can be damned sure the Pats stop cheating.

And concussions and suicides and all the wrecked brains and bodies of former players -- is that beyond the league's control too? Not nearly so important as one PSI taken out of a football.

Do you think there is a lineman in the game who doesn't try frequently to get away with illegal holds/blocks/etc.? Are you supposed to show contrition by your logic every time you are penalized?

Wrecked brains are collateral damage of a violent sport -- for better or worse. Cheating damages the game. I personally don't think what he did was that bad but Brady will and should be punished. It's very simple in professional sports: if you cheat don't get caught. If you get caught you get punished because otherwise the integrity of the game is in question.

Wrecked brains are in part a consequence of the league not giving a damn enough over the years to consider things that have been recommended by numerous experts that might improve the situation. As for Brady, sure, let the punishment fit the crime though, which ain't much of a crime.

With all due respect, I would be shocked if that happened. See below everyone..

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/08/nfl-in...pressure-rule/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...own-footballs/

10000% agree with this statement. The very nice bi-product of this story for the league though is that every minute of airtime this story gets (and it will get lots), it deflects attention from any/all of the league's other serious issues.

To prior comments about concussions, the blind eye the league's turned toward this and other player disabilities is disgraceful. IMO, it's in line with the "doctors" who for years denied that smoking increased one's risk for cancer. Also love that the guy who headed the NFL's concussion research was a rheumatologist. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but they didn't think a neurologist may be more qualified??

Don't get me wrong, I love football.. loved playing, love watching.. but think the NFL is a pretty disgusting entity overall. The NCAA is right behind it.

There's plenty of info out there, but felt the below old snippet (2006) from the LA Times summed it up nicely. It's amazing how long the league's been able to mostly deflect this topic, and their bogus doctors and studies have helped the cause. IMO- letting some air out of balls doesn't sniff this (nor any number of other issues, including salary cap violations, added stadium noise, etc) in importance. But IMO the NFL PR men say-- "YES!! Please keep talking about Deflate Gate all off-season, please please!!"

Concussions, it seems, are the NFL's dirty little secret. It's not just that they happen so often, but that the league doesn't seem to be doing much about it.

Sure, the NFL says it has had a committee of doctors studying them since 1994. But experts in the field say the league's studies are flawed, use suspect data, and don't stand up to peer review.

So when the NFL says no evidence has been found that brain function declines as a result of a concussion, the news is greeted with skepticism in the medical community.

"What the NFL allegedly finds is totally at odds with scores of publications that are out there," said Dr. Robert Cantu, a neurologist and leading expert in brain injuries at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston. "The stuff the NFL is putting out is just not the way the thinking is in the community of sports medicine and specialists with expertise in this area."

So as a Pats fan............

When the whole thing began I figured there was a technical explanation.

But, between the texts and the odd pattern of Brady all of a sudden communicating with the equipment guys he hasn't called for months and calling one into what's essentially his office which hadn't happened since before Brady - something like 20 years.

That to me looks very much like something was up.

Enough that there should probably be some punishment.

The guesses on the radio station I listen to - Rock, not sports, was that it would be one game for Brady, he'd appeal until after the season opener, then take his one game off. The rumor was that a "source" in the league office said 4 games for Brady. All with the team and Coach in the clear since there was no evidence they knew about it (Since the NFL spent big bucks checking I'll go with that even though I don't believe it) And I think either would be entirely appropriate.

-------------------
The other side of how I feel about it.

The rule isn't well written, either from a technical standpoint or from a clarity standpoint. It doesn't actually say the balls have to remain inflated - except the home team has a responsibility to provide "playable" balls at all times. 12 primary ones and 12 backups which apparently weren't used and possibly weren't deflated. And it mentions no penalty. Except in a totally different section where the commissioner can investigate and punish "extraordinarily unfair acts" - To me also vague. What's extraordinarily unfair as opposed to just unfair or sort of unfair? Could I put together a team of lazy guys and then say it's extraordinarily unfair they have to play a team that practices?:) Yeah, a bit over the top but it makes the point.

From everything I've read it seems the handling of the balls is very lax, and even the refs might push the limits. The one text complaining about the refs making some of the balls more like 16 psi is interesting. Did they just pump them up by feel, or did they know some would be let out and cover for it by deliberately overinflating? And if that's the case that crew should get the same suspension.
-----------------
In a more general sense-

I've never bought the NCAA style stripping of titles for a team sport. It makes some sense with individual sports where it's more clear the winner wouldn't have won without cheating. Lance should have been stripped of his 7 wins. without doping he probably wouldn't have won all of them. He might have won a couple, but not all 7. Oddly, a few of those years there isn't a clean rider for several positions. If you figure they were always on something you'd have to remove a few riders. I also think there were people at the top of the UCI that should have also been banned. The one statement another rider made that someone came in and said "the test was positive but Nike took care of it" to me is very telling.

But for a team sport? Nonsense. Stripping a college team of a title because one really good player gets some cash from a booster, or a job, or someone does a bit of recruiting at the wrong time very much does a disservice the rest of the team, especially the second stringers who worked just as hard sometimes knowing that the only way they'd see the inside of a pro stadium was as a spectator. And all at the same time they're making millions from the kids who aren't allowed to make anything if there's any connection to the team at all.


Steve B

And you would be right, sir...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12...ts-deflategate

Edited to add: And a $1M fine.

Two games when Ray Rice knocks a woman senseless, nothing in response to numerous prior reports of domestic violence, nothing in response to littered bodies and brains everywhere (just ask Dr. Robert Cantu), and four games for "probably" knowing a football was slightly deflated. The NFL is really bleeped up.

+1

12-4 should still be good enough to win the AFC East next year. Losing the 32nd pick shouldn't hurt too much either.

Go Dolphins!

Again, all the NFL cares about is money and the perception that the Pats cheated in the playoffs was enough to make the commissioner freak out. Heating up the balls illegally on the sideline? 25K fine because the press didn't run with it. Brady messing with the balls? He's 1/4 Paul Hornug-ed.

Love the Pat fans finding any excuse to defend their cheating quarterback.

My sentiments exactly. Rice wipes the floor with his fiance and gets a shorter suspension than a guy who plays with slightly deflated footballs. What a crock. Goodall must go!

...
 

Can't stand FOOOSEEEBALL. It's a league full of criminals. It's boring and there's about 6 minutes of actual gameplay the rest is watching the sidelines horrible commercials and overgrown guys who get away with steroids on the phone.

That said things like this help make me hate it even more. I totally agree they should forfeit the win. THEY CHEATED. So they just get a slap on the wrist gotta love Goodell.

I agree with Barry, some penalty is warranted, but what about what other teams do.