Lesson learned; Max bid on eBay
 

I just learned a valuable lesson about using maximum bids on eBay. I was bidding from my phone and too lazy to go to my PC and use Bidnapper. I entered a maximum bid directly on Ebay. I never usually do this, not even with auction houses.

Here's what happened:

Yesterday someone outbid me at $2,550. Fine, I was OK with losing the auction at this price.

This morning that bid was retracted (conveniently just before the bid retraction limit of 12 hours of the end time).

So now I'm the high bidder at $1,950.

So now the seller knows what my maximum bid was! So guess what's going to happen just before the auction end time? Someone is going to bid $2,450 to bring me to my maximum bid.

I understand the "If you win the auction at what you bid, don't complain" thinking. However, this type of crap really irritates me. I tried to retract my bid but by the time I noticed what was going on it was within the 12 hour limit.

Most likely this will be a $500 lesson learned (kind of). I just thought I'd pass this information along so others don't make the same mistake. Whether what I'm predicting happens or not, next time I'm using Bidnapper or just putting my max bid in within the last few minutes of the auction.

sorry to hear that happen Dan :(

If that happens you could always contact the seller and let them know you were obviously shilled and that you'd like to cancel the transaction, unless you're cool with paying that max bid price of course.

I would wait and see how the auction plays out, but I agree with this advice if you get shilled up.

Thanks for the kind comments and advice. After thinking this over, if I end up winning the auction at my maximum bid I'll be happy. That's all that matters to me.

Either way, I wanted to pass the information along to the board.

I just checked, it's almost up to my max bid already. Check out the bidding! It looks like they're not waiting until the last minute.

Who's the seller.

carterscards2006

They seem to be a re-seller. They probably don't have anything to do with the shilling.

0 Feedback Bidder on this Item
 

I had email conversations with this seller first thing this morning. Here is what happened:

A new buyer (Ebay ID: kesjimjam 0 Feedback) opened an account and bid up several of the sets he is selling. Seller said he called EBay immediately and they told him to contact buyer and inquire about payment etc. Seller gave him 3 hours and he did not respond. He then deleted every one of the buyer's bids and blocked him.

Wow, some beautiful cards

I just had a similar situation happen to me, but a different seller.

Its amusing how some Ebay buyers run up a price, then back out.

Within an hour the seller sent me a Second Chance Offer, which I refused and informed him to relist the item.

One week later and no relisting. Imagine that

I'd ask the seller to cancel my bid as I'd have no interest in bidding in an obviously shilled auction. Just another thought.

Update to my first post (#11)

The seller now messaged me thru Ebay and informed me that he wants to make a deal outside of Ebay.

This just keeps getting better.

BTW, Hope it works out for you Dan.

J@ntz

Dan,

Just a heads up. Here is a previous Net54 post on the seller:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=carterscards

yeah I have had dealings with the seller...hes one of those 'no hurry to sell' guys or 'I have higher offer' when deal with him direct and then days later its on ebay no reserve...

Enter Scumbag.

Song they should track behind all of their listings.

Sorry that happened but not surprised. eBay is shill heaven now and not using a sniper program is as good as asking for it, especially with the consignment sellers.

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.

It seems his concern was a bit pre-mature. I assume Dan is pleased, as he indicated his max bid was $2500 and that he was willing to pay that amount.

Here's a scenario - You make a bid in an auction (lets say for about $2K) and you were outbid. Knowing you didn't have to commit to paying for that item (because you were outbid on it) you bid on another item for about the same price. Then a bid retraction occurs shortly before the auction ended where you were outbid and you are again the high bidder in that auction and lets say you win that auction. Shortly after that you also win the other auction for $2K. Does that mean you have to commit to paying for both auctions? :eek:

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.
__________________

+ 1,000,000....

I don't think his concern was premature. Please don't misconstrue the following because I'm not making any accusations here. What happens if the "0" bidder was made up by someone that wanted to reveal the high bid and what happens if the seller "knew" the under bidder? Again, I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just saying "what if?" I'd be a bit unhappy with soemone retracting a bid like that on an auction I was bidding on.

It may not have been the case here but....

Based on another post above and looking at the bids, the bid was cancelled by the seller because of concerns about the veracity of the bidder. It wasn't retracted.

Apparently the bid was canceled by the seller and not retracted. It makes no difference though because the card never got shilled up to Dan's max which was his concern but didn't occur, which is why I said the concern may have been a bit pre-mature. There was an assumption on Dan's part, and mine when I gave my advice, that the auction was destined to be shilled up to his max bid amount. We were mistaken and all is well from Dan's perspective...I assume anyways, which I should probably stop doing as this scenario illustrates.

Just because the person bid before Dan bid, I don't see how that proves that this was not shilling. Many instances of shilling happen when a seller/consignor have a "hidden reserve" that they are trying to shill the price up to. So the person doesn't have to shill up to the max bid, just up to their "reserve." In addition, the bidder may have seen this thread on this board, and didn't want to seem too obvious.

That the bidder who had his bid retracted wasn't the underbidder doesn't matter either. Obviously in this case, that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was. That new account "may" have been associated with the underbidder (or not).

Obviously, this doesn't prove shilling either. The 0 feedback bidder could have been a completely different person not associated with the underbidder. I've seen cases where someone puts in a large bid like this to try to determine the max bid for the highest bidder, probably in order to determine if they want to put a snipe in if the max bid is still lower than what they are looking at. If if there is a regular reserve on the card, they put in a high bid to try to determine what reserve the seller set on the card. I guess the point is that this could still be anything, and I think the best strategy in general is to still snipe, and not put max bids in, especially ebay auctions.

Come on, Gary. Are you for real?

If someone wanted to shill Dan up, they obviously could have because his proxy bid was exposed with the bid cancellation.

Did you even look at the bidding history? Did you notice that the user that had his bid cancelled is no longer a registered user? Did you also notice that he bid on several other items from 6 other sellers too?

Read before you post.

David, I don't know if you're just being naïve, but I did look at the bidding history. I don't see how that proves anything. People who shill often bid in other auctions to try to mask their shilling activities. The fact that he's no longer a registered bidder doesn't mean anything. Please read my post completely also. As I stated, it may not be shilling, but I don't think that the bidding history proves this.

Yes, Gary, I'm being naive.

Clearly I don't get it. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, David. At least you have no peer in being able to detect altered cards. ;)

I have two questions for you, Gary.

1) If the auction was shilled (which you clearly infer), why didn't the shiller run Dan's bid up to the max? After all, nothing was stopping him.

2) The only bidder that could have shilled that auction would have been n***i (593). So, here is another auction with the same NARU'd user. Who is the shiller on this one since obviously n***i (593) didn't bid in this one?

I would love to hear some more of your wisdom.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

David, clearly we are working off of different definitions of shill bidding. For you, it looks like shilling only means when artificial bids are created that run the winning bid up to their max bid. For me, shilling is any artificial bids created by the seller/consignor (or someone related) with the intention of increasing the final price of the item.

As I said in my initial post in this thread (#24), the consignor may have had a hidden reserve that he wanted to be met. Therefore, he shilled to drive the price up to his reserve price. He may have stopped at that point because he thought that price was sufficient for him, or he may have stopped because he had seen this thread so didn't want to bring additional attention to himself.

For the second auction that you are showing, the consignor may have decided that no additional shilling was necessary because the price at that point already surpassed his hidden reserve.

Again, my point here is that unless you know who the consignor and bidders are, you really do not know if you are being shilled or not. Once ebay started masking bidder id's, it made it significantly more difficult to determine if there is shilling going on. I remember a while back, Jeff believed that he was shilled in a PWCC auction for a Cobb card. However, in that instance, I was the consignor to PWCC for that item. I asked PWCC who the underbidder in that auction was, and I sent that ebay id over to Jeff to try to prove to him that no shilling occurred in that auction. So unless the consignor for these items speaks up, and then provides the identities for the bidders in question, we really won't know what really happened in these auctions.

As you ALSO said in your initial post, "that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was."

Come one, Gary, if your going to make ridiculous comments, back them up. You clearly inferred that n***i (593) created the 0 feedback bidder to see what the max bid was. So, where is n***i (593) in the second auction? Where is the shill in this auction?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...565&rmvSB=true

In other words, what was the 0 feedback user's motivation for bidding on it?

David, why does every action need to be linked with the same id's in both? Couldn't n***i (593) not bid in that auction or instead use a different account just to throw you off?

Yes, clearly some elaborate scheme by the seller to use multiple accounts and even create new ones, all in an effort to shill his auctions.

Your ignorance is amazing!

David, I'm just going to have to move on and agree to disagree with you in this case. What I find amazing is your inclination to not read my entire posts and just try to pick and choose my statements that seem to fit your thesis. I have stated that I do not know unequivocally what occurred in these auctions. You seem to know exactly what went down. More power to you.

Actually, I do know exactly what went down because I had someone PM me with more details after I posted what I did in Post #17.

I won't reveal that user's name or what he said since it was said in private, but I have a little more information than you do.

The old, I know more than you but I can't tell you what even though I wish I could thing.

I once stayed at a Holiday Inn.

Anyone like applesauce?

I don't understand placing a bid any time before 10 seconds to go. Use a snipe service.

+1

+2

yes, but only with pork chops.

Pfff... maybe if it was a service that you could sign up for free, THEN...

I don’t understand how a snipe prevents shilling.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $1675. You really want the item and set your snipe to $2200. There are no other bidders. As the auction is about to end, your snipe is placed and you end up winning the item for $2025, still $175 less than your snipe amount.

Tell me, how did sniping protect you from shilling? Weren’t you still shilled up by $350, or am I missing something?

looks like shilling by 593* to me...and if you don't use a sniping service to prevent shilling then i'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Most, if not all of the sniping services are free. Check out gavelsnipe.com

That in 2015 someone still has to say this really just makes clear how dumb the average collector really is.

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

right if a seller knows what the current bid is he can have someone beat it and retract and then have another bidder bid right below the highest authority of the real bidder.....in the last 10 seconds this cant be done....seller will have to risk 'winning' the item with secret reserve if hes the high bidder end of auction..he not guaranteed to not be the highest bidder if cant do the retraction game...

Jeff, no it doesn't. It works out the same. Let me give you the same example (using the same bid amounts), but this time you bid during the auction rather than snipe.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). You really want the item and place a proxy bid (instead of a snipe) of $2200. You're then current high bidder at $1675. The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $2025, but you're still the current high bidder. There are no other bidders and you end up winning the auction for that amount.

In both examples, you're still artificially bid up by the same amount ($350). So, it made no difference whether you would have sniped our not.

I'm not being facetious, but I really don't get it unless somehow it makes you feel better about the situation to be artificially run up at the end of the auction (by placing a snipe) rather than to be artificially run up during the auction (by placing a proxy bid). To me, they're one in the same.

David, the fact that you can construct an example where it works out the same does not disprove the proposition that sniping provides some measure of protection. You're smarter than that. Obviously, it cannot protect against a hidden reserve, but at the same time it can protect against someone running your early bid up to see how high it is, then retracting and exposing it so it can be run up again to just under the max. Your hypothetical assumes the consignor or seller won't let it go below a certain amount. Not always the case -- sometimes the consignor or seller just wants to maximize.

Are you bound to pay for this item? I'd argue I lost the auction. This whole scenario would seem pretty fishy to me and I don't think I'd pay.

If I was the winning bidder and felt that I had been shilled, I MIGHT refuse to pay for the item. The OP's example looks really fishy to me.

But it really depends - there have been several times where I felt I had been shilled on en ebay item, but the price was so good that I wasn't willing to cut off my nose to spite my face. Sometimes I waited until after receiving the item, then complained to the seller. But usually I do nothing and just enjoy the item. It doesn't happen often enough for me to lose sleep over it.

Peter, I understand what you’re saying about the difference between a “hidden reserve” (“safety bid” or whatever else you want to call it) and someone running your bid up to expose your proxy, only to retract it so someone else can run you back up. Yes, my example was based on the hidden reserve and didn’t take into account the occasional bid retractor.

But I’ll say this. In the last year, I have won probably over 1000 items on eBay. My feedback shows 784 (within the last 12 months), but many of those were for multiple purchases (where the seller could only leave feedback once within a given time period) and it doesn't account for the purchases in which feedback wasn't left. In those 1000+ purchases, I don't think I once had a bidder retract his bid on an item I was bidding on.

I'm not naive, of course I know it (bid retractions) happens, but if it hasn't happened to me in the last 1000+ purchases, I have a hard time believing it happens to others on a regular basis. And I’m not saying it’s never been done to me. I’ve been on eBay for over 12 years, of course it has (but I honesly can't remember the last time). But in those situations (which are very rare) I usually just retract my bid as well just in case so I won’t be run up.

Sure, my examples were hypotheticals, but they were based on every day bidding habits. Your example (with the bid retraction) is a once in a blue moon type of thing because it really doesn't happen that often. My example happens way more often than your example.

I guess the bottom line is that we have different ways of dealing with bid retractors. Yours is to use a snipe, mine is to cancel my bid as well. That doesn’t make one way right and one way wrong. If a sniping service works for you, then great. To me, there are too many things that can go wrong (snipe not going off), so I'll pass.

The problem is when the bid is retracted right at the last minute (12 hrs before auction end), which is what happened with the OP. By retracting the bid at the last second, they have effectively revealed your max bid and put you in a situation where there is nothing you can do about it. That is very fishy and I probably would have alerted ebay and had them retract my bid over the phone, just out of principal.

David -- surely you've seen the threads here about bidders in PWCC, Probstein and possibly elsewhere with incredible numbers of retractions. Now maybe spread out over as many auctions as there are, it's still a low percentage; or maybe the items you are bidding on are less likely to elicit that sort of misconduct than other types of items; but in any event it obviously happens with some frequency.

Scott, understood but, just to clarify, in the OPs situation the bidder didn't retract his bid (Dan misunderstood this). The bid was actually cancelled by the seller for certain reasons. But I get what you're saying - the result was the same - his proxy was exposed. Calling eBay and having them cancel your bid is a good solution too (assuming it is within that 12 hours and you can't do it yourself).

For the record, I still stand firm in my belief that the auction wasn't shilled.

Peter, I have seen the threads about all the bid retractions in Probstein's auctions. I haven't seen the same accusations about PWCC (if I have I really don't remember), but I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I avoid Probstein's auctions all together, so maybe I'm just not exposed to that (bid retractions) as much as some people?

I forgot about that. If you can tell that it's a cancel rather than a retraction, I would contact the seller and express my concerns. If he was doing it to protect the auction (and legitimate bidders), I would not be concerned.

I rarely look for bid retractions on items I'm bidding on, but as you stated earlier - they probably don't occur that much.

Same here. I no longer buy cards on ebay and don't even have searches set up any more.

My question was more about eBay's rules. It says if you win the auction you're bound to the sale. But if you lose, what then? If I get outbid, that to me is a loss. I don't feel obligated to pay for something unless I win. Bid retractions/cancellations confuse me as to what my obligations would be.

Let's say you auction off a card. The winning bidder retracts their bid in the morning. Do you expect the second highest bidder to pay for the item? Or would you think it's their choice?

I have not had much success on the 'Bay even finding a card worthy of a bid lately. In days gone by, once I got outbid on a card, I generally funneled that money to an alternate choice. If I won the alternate and THEN was required to honor a bid that had been eclipsed, I would have been in trouble.

That's my thinking too. Once I'm outbid I move on. I don't see why I should then have to commit to something I was outbid on because someone else changed their mind. Where would that end? What if 6 people retract?

There have been a few times on eBay where I was outbid for an item, then a few days to a week later, I got a "Second Chance Offer" from the seller, telling me that the winner had not paid, and that I could have the item for what I bid. I was under no obligation, but in a couple of those cases I did buy the item.

Once the auction is over and there is a 'winning bidder' the winner can no longer retract their bid. They are the winner, they are locked in. Whether they choose to pay or not is a whole different topic.

I hope I understood your question correctly.

I thought you had 12 hours to retract your bid. I didn't read every reply. Was that misinformation?

Yes that is a different circumstance. Still, I would have been screwed as I usually spent my entire card budget and then some. I guess I was lucky that I never got burned by a retracted bid.

As I understand it, you have 12 hours to retract your bid, but you can only do so as long as the auction is still going on. Once it's over, if you're the winning bidder you're obligated to buy the item for the winning amount.

You can retract a bid any time during an auction, except within the last 12 hours. You can't retract a bid within the last 12 hours. Also, you can't retract a bid after the auction.

There are certain protections you still have after the auction, but eBay has to be involved. For example, if you realize you 'won' a fraudulent card, eBay can cancel the auction (even after it's over).

Ah that is my confusion. I thought you had up to 12 hours after you placed the bid, auction over or not.

That might explain why I never had a problem. I either put in a token bid, trying to steal it, which got outbid early and often most of the time or I bid strong enough to hold the bid into the final 12 hours....

Different card, but more of the same, half price on the second time listed, my guess is its still not sold.....

3/9/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

2/18/15
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

LOL This is why even thought that seller has an item I would really really like I am not going to bid.