Ruth and Gehrig Balls - Authentic?
 

I was presented the following baseballs for less than $7500/each. I was told they came with Halper COAs. I have received a copy of one, but not the other. Would love to hear opinions/comments about whether folks on this forum believe these signatures to be legit.

Of note, I've done some research and I'm not sure the COA provided is authentic, which then of course brings into question the authenticity of the balls. One, I haven't seen/found other Halper COA/LOA like this one. Two, of the Halper COAs that I've seen, he has signed all of them, but this one is not. Finally, the letterhead indicates it's from Halper and Bros., Inc. The company that I believe Halper worked for was Halper and Sons (see http://njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/121...milyMarks.html)

I would not pretend to be an expert on Halper memorabilia, so I don't know if I'm just paranoid or being objective with regard authenticity of the material presented.

Thank you in advance for your feedback/assistance.

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. Had no idea they were posted on that auction.

Run away...

Garbage.

Fakes. And anything posted on or sold from Coaches Corner Auctions stay away from.

Freaking laughable.

Someone (we know who) buys Halper letters and couples them with crap.

Scott Malack and Lee Trythall (Roach's Corner) have been selling forgeries for decades.

Roach's Corner has been selling dozens of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, etc. forgeries every single month for decades.

To the OP - curiosity compels me to ask if you would reveal the identity of the seller of those two baseballs.

I want the OP to direct the seller of that crap to this thread.

I think this is a test.

Will it fly?

Thank you for the replies, much appreciated. Just curious, so I don't always have to post when I have something presented to me, what here jumps out to you that this is fake? Has anyone here seen this ball before? Seen a similar COA/LOA from Halper? Is the COA/LOA a copy of a legit one or a complete fabrication? Parker mentioned the auction house itself is ripe with forgeries, however had Sophieb not referenced the auction listing for the Gehrig ball (Ruth ball was not listed), would it have been as clear cut? Not questioning the replies, just want to understand further what to look out for....thanks!

I'm sorry but I believe your story is a load of crap. It's a little too ironic that you were "offered" two autographs that appear on a regular basis on the Coaches Corner website and chose to come here (seeing you just joined this month) to ask an opinion.

They are fake and if you were trying to get someone to give you an approval, then purchase the ball there and try to resale here or somewhere else, then you shouldn't bother sticking around.
Sorry, but your story and the irony is just too fishy for me.
Best of luck on eBay.

Seller is Joe DiMaggio Estate, www.memorabiliacenter.com, although they have stated the following, "...Another great signed bb at a great price being sold thru us on consignment, that once was in the Barry Halper collection." The consignment is on behalf of a former customer. Both balls are from the same person. I don't know who is behind the curtain per se, although perhaps others on this forum might know.

I don't see those balls listed on that site, am I missing something?

According to your site reference, R&R Enterprises is the seller of these balls (that aren't even on the site)....

In my opinion those Halper certs are a complete fabrication.
I have never seen them before.
And even if they were copies of legit certs,,, well we know about Halper items, don't we?

In a thousand years, RR would never be selling those baseballs.
Do not confuse R&R from NC with RR from NH.

James, sorry you feel that way. The Ruth ball was not posted on Coaches Corner website, and I didn't know the Gehrig one was until Sophieb pointed that out. I realize you don't know me, but I don't buy/sell my collectibles. I buy and hold them. I joined this site for two reasons: one, because I had suspicions about the cert provided, which you'll note in my original post (I wasn't sure whether the autos were legit or not); two, because in doing my research, this site was pointed out as a resource.

It's pretty amazing that they used the same pen and has the same amount of fading being that they're signed 9 years apart.

Hey Richard,
I know the confusion and the maliciousness behind them registering that way, but that's why I included the name, address (North Carolina), and the email address that appears on that site.

Just take a look at the Mantle and Dimaggio 4x6 photos on that website.

They were offered to me (and others) via email. Yes, they are not in the site. I never said they were on the site. I honestly don't know why you're attacking me in this. I'm merely trying to figure out whether these balls are legit or not, clearly they are not, and in the process better educate myself on what I should look out for when buying something like a Ruth or Gehrig ball.

Perhaps I'm being really thick, meaning those are legit or those are fake? Also what's the diff between R&R in NC and R&R in NH? Don't know the one in NH at all.

It is not R&R in NH. It is RR, a totally different entity, and well established long before R&R in NC.
And in my opinion the photos I referenced originated in Florida where, in my opinion, a major forgery mill is operating.

So am I to believe the stuff being sold through Joe DiMaggio Estate, the R&R entity in NC, is fake? I was offered another Gehrig ball by them in December. I thought it looked iffy, but they said it had a PSA/DNA cert. it didn't have the full cert, but one of the quickie opinions. Went back-and-forth on the ball, they finally agreed to send it in to PSA for a full cert (after telling me they were going to back out of the deal and put it up for auction). This week I learned they turned around and sold it to someone else who was willing to buy it as-is, i.e. no full cert. I'm not home now but can post picture of that ball later.

I think you are going to end up buying a forgery. Hopefully not, but they seem to be swaying you more than the people here.

My advice would be to look through the myriad of Ruth or Gehrig autograph threads on this site. There has been a lot of discussion about what looks good and what does not and why. You will learn a lot more in less time by doing this.

Also, I would forget about buying anything like this with that kind of money until you have the ability to identify good from bad on your own, without the help of a PSA/DNA or JSA. Obviously it is your money so you can do as you wish. I just can't imagine buying something for that much with only someone else's opinion being the difference between a wonderful piece/nice investment and a $5 baseball with writing on it.

Tom C

Joe Dimaggio estate bought the rights from Morris Engelberg the attorney to sell of all of the Joe d PIctures, baseball and other crap. He lost a fortune trying to do it.Every bank in NC. had civil suites against him.
He then had the Idea since he had the name Joe D Estate he would put up anything for sale. He move his operation to Minnesota where B&J sold thousands of pieces with Joe d stickers including fake Ruths Paige's and anyone else he could get his hands on.
The garbage you put up there is something a blind man would know is bad.
I really think most of the people have been very patient with you. I guess you can not understand the word no.:eek:

This ones on the site....only $2700 with Morales COA. :p

They simply wait for suckers to buy their garbage.

The majority of people (not true autograph collectors) who buy this crap, usually buy on impulse and have no idea what they are looking at.

It's disgusting.

Thanks for all the feedback. I truly appreciate it. I actually am not looking for a reason to buy something from them. On the contrary, I have had my suspicions about them and their merchandise and have frankly frustrated them with my questions. It appears I was correct, although I couldn't put my finger on it. They just sent another email with another ball from the same consignor, will post it up.

New ball just offered-Ruth and Cobb
 

Asking $4k for this ball. While I might not be able to pick out a fake as well as others on this forum, $4k for a ball signed by Ruth and Cobb like this is way below market. I need to find the older threads that point out what to look for when evaluating the signatures of Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, etc.

"This vintage, red-laced baseball is unmarked and unlabeled, and comes cubed in G+ condition. It is hand-signed on the sweet spot by both original 1936 HOF Inductees, including Babe Ruth in black and Ty Cobb in green, and will show off superbly upon display. Comes with a full LOA from longtime collector and memorabilia specialist Barry Halper for authenticity purposes, and books well into the thousands!"

Here you go:

http://myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=444936

...looks like the "consignor" is cleaning house. Here is a list of auto balls and associated pricing I just received. What is this forgery ring in Florida someone mentioned? Why is nothing done to try and stop them? If anyone here is interested in these balls, let me know. :-)

"Grover Alexander $3995
Edward Barrow $999.99
Jim Bottomley $1495
Roy Campanella $1695
Roberto Clemente $3495
Mickey Cochrane $1495
Eddie Collins $2495
Dizzy Dean $1995
Joe DiMaggio $695
Huge Duffy $1495
Jimmie Foxx $2995
Frankie Frisch $1495
Lou Gehrig $4995
Josh Gibson $3495
Hank Greenberg $1695
Lefty Grove $1995
Harry Heilmann $1995
Herbert Hoover $2995
Rogers Hornsby $2995
Walter Johnson $3995
John Kennedy $4995
Bill Klem $999.99
Nap Lajoie $2995
Kennesaw Landis $1995
Connie Mack $1995
Mickey Mantle $695
Roger Maris $999.99 SOLD
Ducky Medwick $1695
Mel Ott $2995
Satchel Paige $1495
Ronald Reagan $1999.99
Jackie Robinson $2995
Franklin Roosevelt $4995
Babe Ruth $4995 SOLD
George Sisler $2495
Tris Speaker $2995
Harry Truman $2995
Arky Vaughn $995
Honus Wagner $3995
George Weiss $995
Ted Williams $695
Hack Wilson $1995
Cy Young $3995"

[QUOTE=VAYankee;1374318] Why is nothing done to try and stop them? )

A few of of us have been trying for years, but one cares except us in the autograph hobby.

I bet this is the "Walter Johnson" forgery they are attempting to sell.

They sell Walter Johnson forgeries every month.


Attachment 177382

I like how they put 'SOLD' next to a few of them :)

They did claim the Ruth ball that they offered to me (it's the one pictured in the beginning of this post) was purchased by someone who wasn't concerned with the cert. This was the feedback I got this morning:

"We were able to reach an agreement with the buyer....so this Ruth bb is sold.

I remember you told me you once got burned before on a purchase. Now I believe, unless these guys like Ruth and Gehrig either tell you they actually signed the bb, or left behind an affidavit before they died that they did so, you are not going to be comfortable. It certainly is your prerogative, but in the business we refer to it as “paralysis by analysis.”

This really burned me, because I had the nerve to seek clarity on the cert and ball. I have to admit that I feel like an ass now. I was led to these guys by my best friend. I bought a Joe D ball from them, which I'm now guessing is fake. Plus, they have been selling these limited quantity, laser engraved balls signed by contemporary players, e.g. Kershaw, Trout, McCutchen, etc., who have recently won an award. I did buy a Kershaw ball too, although fortunately that's it. I'm guessing the forgery ring in Florida is behind those too. I should have been more careful, because when I saw that they were offering a Derek Jeter ball too that seemed odd - I didn't think Steiner would allow him to sign other stuff. They claimed he was allowed to sign a limited quantity of items outside his contract. After I bought the Kershaw ball, the story changed to that Jeter's contract with Steiner ended when he retired. Sigh....

Perhaps some day one of their signers will either get immunity to turn them in, or, being dispicable characters, simply get pissed at their boss over something trivial, and turn them in.

Maybe we could all pitch in and put a bounty on the ringleader? I bet $5000 would get an employee's attention.

Just to inform the OP, all of us here know this, the Florida forgery ring is not connected to CC as far as I can tell.

I would assume that this "signer" (or signers) is making a decent living doing what he does. If he outs his employer he's not only brought attention to himself but would then be out of a job. Then he would have to go into the real world and find a job :eek:

Wait, you know the people in this ring and/or know who they're connected to? I'm not sure what to say to that. The ring is not connected to CC...Who is CC?

This is CC (Coach's Corner). Also known as Roach's Corner Auctions.

http://www.myccsa.com/Browse.aspx

Ok, not connected directly, but it seemed as though from the comments about the Ruth, Gehrig, Johnson balls that they are connected at least indirectly. Correct?

The Florida ring is not connected to CC.
They sell totally different items from each other and do business in a very different way.
Though I believe they both do sell to resellers who pollute the entire hobby with crap in many different venues.

The Florida crap is mostly along the lines of 500HR, 300 win type collages and players. Mantle, DiMaggio, Ford, Williams, Koufax.
Coaches Corner tagline is "We sign to order, customization FREE!"

I don't mean to be rude, but to the OP: you appear to be in over your head by trying to buy autos at this level. To consider buying this caliber of auto at these prices is foolish.

Ken

My thoughts exactly, Ken.

Is this what impulse buying is?

Someone who knows nothing about autographs all-of-a-sudden leaps to purchase high-end autographs of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, etc?

Is that why sellers of forgeries are so successful?

Damn right it is!!!!

I suppose my simple reply is that "you don't know, what you don't know." I'm sure when you all started here you weren't instant experts as well and have learned along the way. To my credit, I didn't buy the Ruth or Gehrig balls, because I sensed something wasn't right. I came here, and that was confirmed.

As a bit of background, I have been collecting for years, mainly contemporary although a couple DiMaggio/Mantle type of balls sprinkled in. I stopped buying stuff like the DiMaggio balls when I saw the HBO special about the industry and Mr. Frangipani, of which I have one of the balls he certified - in fact, I went to NY, met him and the seller. I got burned and went away, except to stuff that was certified by MLB or perhaps Steiner (for Yankees stuff - did not pay full retail though as that's crazy).

I got "back in" after my best friend told me about JDE. Seemed legit, he had purchased a few nice pieces from them...seemed safe. Is that not something most people, even here, would do? Obtaining a Ruth and Gehrig ball has always been a lifelong dream. I'm glad I didn't spend $5k here on one only to find out later it was a fake.

As a collector whose interest in this hobby is fading, I could not agree more with you TIOT. The only question I would have is "who buys this crap?". I mean look on the first page of the Coach's Corner Sports Auctions page and you will see two Lou Gehrig baseballs. Are they not completely identical?

The forger has but one black fountain pen (ocassional blue) that stands out as "so obvious", does it not? And then when you click on "baseball" in the browse bar in fact you see that he has authored more than his fair share of goods for these roaches.

http://www.myccsa.com/Search.aspx?SearchText=baseball

But of course in saying this, who gets the final laugh in all of this? What, twenty-five years of this? Tens of millions if not hundreds of millions in sales where a book seller in nearby area does a smidge of these sales over a few years and he gets a proper sentence for his crimes? And now they are bringing Barry Halper back to life in the form of fifty-eight authenticated items?

People "like this" potential buyer is the very reason why forgers have success and why it is a growing business and very, very lucrative. There are actually people on the other end of these sales that spent good money for worthless merchandise. Who would have thunk it, but I bet we all know people who have purchased from Coach's. I do. How many $100 items that should sell for $5,000 end up in retail stores with a $5,000 price tag and are in fact sold? I bet quite a few. Lots actually. Upon my travels I have seen it.

The number question is "how are these guys never caught?" and that the fact of the matter is that they are so brazen (perfect word) because it's been twenty-five years and if they were able to allude a few stings back when, do they actually foresee any harm coming their way in the future? So five years from now it looks like they will probably have a new authenticator, baseballs signed by William Shakespeare and Jesus Christ and we will still be complaining about them on message boards while we work hard for an honest living you have to wonder what the point of being honest actually is if this is allowed? C'mon FBI. I know you are very busy with ISIS, but this is the ISIS of this hobby. THIS IS A PROBLEM. Sorry for the rant, but I, like tens of thousands are truly disgusted with it all and the only way to combat our frustration is with message board complainin'.

I am glad you didn't pull the trigger on any of that garbage.

Well written comment, LCB.

First, it is my opinion that Roach's Corner has maybe 4-6 major consignors.

Also, in my opinion, the majority of people who buy that crap are stores who sell to impulse buyers who are the impressed by someone like Chris "I Have Never Saw An Autograph I Didn't Like" Morales and his "Forensic" title.

Then there's the individuals who buy that crap simply to flip it elsewhere for a profit, etc.

At one point, years ago, we thought "something" was going to happen, but it never did.

Scoot Malack and Lee Trythall have been selling forgeries for two decades, and at this point, it looks like it will continue forever.

With it now being 2015, and all of the information available, I have no reason to feel sorry for anyone who buys that crap.

And the truth is, the only people that care are us.

I find it interesting that you said you went to NY and meet with the seller of the ball and the Donald at the same time.
I have never heard of that happening. It was always my belief that the Donald and seller never worked together.:confused:

James, you might have a point here.

Something smells.

impeccable business model from some of these guys. check cc's auction every month. put out an email blast jacking up prices 10-20x. if a sucker bites just win the auction from cc for pennies on the dollar...PROFIT!

Well, I admit it's just a dream…and a dream to protect idiots who have money burning a hole in their pocket at that. So never mind.

Exactly, Scott.

I learned a long time ago you can't protect people from themselves.

Well done LC.
I still like to think that something will happen to these guys.
Some here have tried but LE is not what it used to be.
I think Chris is overestimating the number of consignors, I think even less then 4-6. One of them came over on the Titanic for crying out loud. (private joke). Remember that Titanic signed "team sheet"? A group allegedly of crewman of the Titanic had their alleged signatures on a sheet of paper. I can certainly picture them doing:confused: that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgmp123
I'm sorry but I believe your story is a load of crap. It's a little too ironic that you were "offered" two autographs that appear on a regular basis on the Coaches Corner website and chose to come here (seeing you just joined this month) to ask an opinion.

They are fake and if you were trying to get someone to give you an approval, then purchase the ball there and try to resale here or somewhere else, then you shouldn't bother sticking around.
Sorry, but your story and the irony is just too fishy for me.
Best of luck on eBay.

James, you might have a point here.

Maybe I am a skeptic, and I do not have as many posts as many of you do, but it seems like this topic gets broached every month or so. A poster with low post numbers or is a new member posts a message about a Ruth or Gehrig ( most commonly them and curiously not other HoFers in that category such as Johnson , Cobb, Wagner etc..) autographed baseball that is available to him exclusively at a great price , or is available at auction. After our opinion is solicited and the name Coach's Corner Auctions comes up the poster suddenly asks all types of questions about CCA , in fact they seeem to follow a set question format/ script claiming lack of knowledge about CCA and then wanting to know all about them...including names, etc...and the site's opinions about them. The only difference is that the OP has a purported COA, unsigned albeit, from Barry Halper; this seems to be a new twist to the story, and now will these Halper letters start to proliferate through the hobby.
If this OP is for real, and I have concerns, but he needs to begin to educate himself about such things. Yes , Net 54 is and its members are a great resource but people need to do some work on their own also.
I do not mean to sound rude but these "fishing" posters need some legs to stand on before posting this stuff, or am I just frustrated that CCA continues in this manner.
Sorry the copy/paste didn't work, it became a quote instead.

Shame on you guys for saying anything that might chase off a new poster who is just here to learn.

(I threw up in my mouth saying that.)

I don't see anything rude about wondering about such things. It would be really easy to translate this entire thread as: "Would any of you guys buy these balls? Because if a Net54 guy would buy it, than anyone would. But yeah, I need to learn how to use steel-tip pens, and work on the LOA paper trail."

If the OP doesn't understand that it might come across that way, and he is sincere in his quest for knowledge, then we just educated him a little on how questions about CC garbage look to us. So now he's educated and can ask questions about other stuff that we are less sensitive about, and become a great member of the forum, educating himself and sharing what he learns.

tmi :)

Well, I already addressed this issue earlier, so I'm not sure what else to say to "prove" that I'm not just fishing. I can address a few more recent comments,
1. I did not know about the balls being on Coaches Corner
2. I did not know of Coaches Corner before I started this thread
3. I did some of my own research, albeit crude perhaps in the eyes of the more experienced members here on Net54 - again, noting in my original post I said I thought the Halper LOA was a fake.
4. For what it's worth, I wouldn't mind a Walter Johnson or Ty Cobb ball either, just not my first choice. I grew up in Jersey as a fan of the Yankees and Ruth and Gehrig were always the "ones to get" at some point. I clearly understand they are not necessarily the most valuable all things considered.
5. I generally don't mind those questioning my intentions, frankly, I can respect that. That's the trait, which has made this forum as successful as it's been. However, I'm not sure what else I can say to "prove" myself to you all. I've provided quite a bit of info for someone that was just "fishing".
6. I've stuck with this thread all the way through. Had I been fishing, I suppose I would have left a long time ago.

So is it possible for you to tell us the source offering these items to you?

Most of the fishermen hang around for a long time, generally with long protests. But they also generally feign anger, which you have not. Welcome.

I did that already. Joe DiMaggio Estate. And, other posters already discussed them as well.

...and, JDE said they were selling on behalf of one of their former customers.

Thank you.

Could you ask JDE for a contact name and phone # to call about the ball?

Sure. I suppose that's probably a reasonable request.

If you are sincere and not fishing then my recommendation is to educate yourself to gain confidence in your opinion first, and then rely on this site to confirm your opinion, not the other way around. Get resources such as Ron K's book ( use it as a reference but not an end all be all decision maker ), go to PSA autograph facts web page, check out Hauls of Shame web site, and get in with Richard Simon and Jim Stinson as dealers on this stuff, and trust a few AHs, and learn not to rely on TPAs or COAs.
If you not an experienced collector buying a Ruth or Gehrig item, let alone a ball, it can cost you several thousands of dollars in mistakes.....somewhat like being signed to a MLB contract at 17 yo and going straight to the majors and facing MLB pitching ...you will get burned.
Remember any purchase you make good or bad is still yours no matter what this site or others say.

Thanks. I did do some research before coming here. In fact, that's what led me here. I've done some of the things already that you've listed - reviewed the PSA website, read lots of stuff on Hauls of Same (although it's hard to tell if Nash is being completely objective - he's not the most upstanding citizen either), I trust Hunt Auctions, Lelands and Heritage, although I haven't purchased anything from Heritage yet, although I admittedly rely on TPA/COAs from PSA more than I should. That said, I don't trust JSA certs as much, I don't have any concrete reason why, other than it seems he certifies everything. Could just be my perspective. Perhaps I have it all backwards - I should trust JSA more than PSA. No doubt I need to do more research, especially after this thread. I'm glad I trusted my instincts that the Ruth ball was fake and came here to confirm my suspicions.

If you really did your work. Those two items should have never been posted with the question are they authentic.
The other thing you should do check out JDE. They are as bad as CC.

Response....
 

Below is the response I received to whether or not I could speak to the seller...

"There is not. The seller has hired us as his Broker for sale of these baseballs.. It is like a real estate broker who has listing. Potential buyers don’t speak to the sellers—there dealings are directly with the broker, who serves as an intermediary between the 2 parties. Moreover, since the seller is selling this thru consignment with us, and who knows who else, there is no way we would put the seller and buyer together, where hypothetically they could work a deal between themselves, and cut us out of the picture.

You have been provided a certificate for the Ruth bb, which is sold. We did talk to the seller and asked him about the LOA for the Gehrig bb. The seller said it was the same type of LOA for the Gehrig bb, which he said he would gladly send off with the Gehrig bb to us, should you decide to pull the trigger. You have also been provided with the chain of ownership from the current owner, to Barry Halper, to Ken Smith—who at one time was Director of the Baseball HOF. We have had buyers already who have bought the Maris bb, the Ruth bb, and the Jackie Robinson bb, who had less information than you have on the Gehrig bb. Frankly, we believe you have enough information to be able to decide whether to purchase or not."

You're entitled to your opinion. However, for probably the 3rd or 4th time, I was looking for assurances that what I believed was likely a fake, was a fake. I did try to check out JDE, but honestly didn't fund much although I wasn't very persistent at first, because, again, they came recommended to me by my best friend, who sounded as though he had done his research.

This is all total bullshit. Halper never issued certificates. Neither did Ken Smith. And, quite conveniently, they are both deceased. Guess no one will be checking with them.

Your best friend like you should stay far far away from this hobby:mad:.

You should direct the "broker" to this thread.

Shelly, I find your posts to be very antagonistic, and I'm not entirely sure why. Essentially, I should stay far, far away from this hobby because I'm not as experienced as you and others on this forum. Following that logic, most of the people on this forum should have left hobby years ago as well. I'm sure you'll respond along the lines that it's idiots like me that keep the forgers in business. Again, following that logic, a good number of those on this forum have kept the forgers going this long as you've made your mistakes, learned from them and the mistakes of others. All I'm trying to do is make an informed decision before making a purchase of a piece of baseball memorabilia in an industry where there are lots of forgeries. As such, I'm just like you and others here - just not as experienced - yet, so please don't patronize me.