Most Influential African American Baseball Figure Besides Jackie Robinson
 

Besides Jackie Robinson, who would you vote for from the list above as the most influential African American Baseball subject of All-Time?

Say Hey
 

Willie Mays

Satchel Paige

Curt Flood. Free agency.

Barry Bonds, by far the best player of his Era and one of the greatest players of all time only to ruin his legacy in the end with the whole PED debacle, his influence will last for decades if not centuries from now.

Curt Flood lost his case over free agency. It was Dave McNally and Andy Messersmith who won their appeal to an arbiter (Peter Seitz) and became free agents.

I chose other and would go with Hank Aaron. The impact of him breaking Babe Ruth's HR record, the Jackie Robinson like abuse he received as he neared the record, and his continued work as a champion of civil rights. He not only had a "moment" or a "first" but has continued to be an influential figure throughout his life.

Aaron. Let's not forget that for a decade he was a black man playing on the first Deep South major league team in an era not far removed, if at all, from deep racial divisions. Yet he carried himself with grace and dignity at all times, not to mention performing at an extraordinary level.

I also chose other and because of Aaron. He had a really tough barrier to break through when approaching the record.

Buck O'Neill

Hank Aaron. I don't know anybody on your list.

I guess I should have specified Pre-Integration (Pre-Jackie Robinson) but it's fine, let's keep the responses coming, very interesting..........

Curt Flood- Free Agency. Yes ,I did see Sean's post.

Absolutely agree with you on this one.

Surprised at the responses. To me it's Rube Foster - no-brainer. Based on his involvement with bringing semi-pro baseball to the Midwest, and then building on that, popularizing black baseball through his tours and Chicago city league involvement, and then using all of that to create the Negro National League, which gave black players the exposure and experience to push for being allowed in the Major Leagues. No Rube Foster - no Jackie Robinson.

Wouldn't be my first choice, but another option could be Frank Robinson, as first black manager and his positions in the front office.

I choose Foster but I think Buck O'Neil is up there.

Nick

Aaron and Frank Robby

Rube Foster and Buck O'Neil for me.

Hammerin' Henry, without a doubt!

Willie Mays with Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente close behind.

Josh Gibson. He could have been a record setter, but never got the chance. He was only 35 when I died if I remember correctly.

When did you die? :eek:

My initial thought upon reading the question - Hank Aaron, for many of the reasons already mentioned.

Upon some reflection (if 20 to 30 seconds counts), my vote(s) would go to Rube Foster and Effa Manley and Rachel Robinson. The question wasn't limited to men and we shouldn't forget the contributions of these 2 great women.

Jimmy Claxton, to many accomplishments to list but I'll start with among the first African Americans to integrate the PCL, and semi-professional leagues in Seattle, Tacoma, Portland, and Reno. Among the first African American managers of a white semi-pro baseball team, the Roslyn Yippers 1926-27 (I believe Ike Ward's management of the Colville baseball team from 1913 to 1915 was the first in Washington, perhaps nationally). The first to be depicted on an American baseball card, well this list could just get exhaustive.....

Hank Aaron, for the reasons already mentioned.

The issue with Claxton, and don't get me wrong, I live in Seattle and respect all PCL history...he just did not "impact" baseball. Most believed he may or may not have been African American.

This.

Every name listed is historically important for one reason it another, but without someone (Foster) creating a viable and competitive league for African-Americans, many of the names listed would be lost to history. You can sweeten up Branch Rickey's intentions all you want, but the fact of the matter is that first and foremost he turned to African American ball players to make his team better. No Foster and no Negro Leagues means no Paige, Aaron, Mays, Gibson, etc.

Respect your opinion Jeff, but Claxton's father, William Edward Claxton (1862-1943), was one of the original 50 African American strikebreakers in Roslyn, Washington August 1888. Jimmy played for forty years (1906-46) in semi-professional baseball, segregated and integrated teams up-and-down the west coast. Though of mixed ancestry he was most certainly first-most African American, and opened the doors for others such as his nephew, Jack Tanner, the first African American superior court judge in Washington state history. A teammate of Claxton's on the 1946 Tacoma Casino Giants.

Hank Aaron was the name I immediately thought of when I read the topic.

Doc Ellis

I agree with all of this. The issue is that not many other people do, except those who may live in the NW or follow PCL history closely. I do not mean to undermine what Claxton accomplished, I just don't feel what he did really impacted mainstream baseball on a nationwide level, as great as he was.
Best,
Jeff

Hank Aaron

Totally Agree with Scott & Steve!
Everything that I have read & learned about Mr. Foster has Always lead me to believe that "He iS the Man!!!"

There's Even a Story about Mr. Rube Foster BeiN' "The Man" Who Taught Christy Mathewson His Fade~Away Pitch... Mr. Mathewson never disputed the Story, So I Believe iT's True! ;)
That's how Influential Mr. Foster was Back iN the Day!

I Salute Mr. Foster... I Believe No One Worked Harder Than He Did oR Even Fir aS Long aS He DiD!!! I Even Think He would give Mr. Jackson a run fir his money aS BeiN' the Most Influential African American... Mr. Jackson was Hand Picked and even Coach'd at times oN how to Act, Re~Act & Carry Himself to the Public's Eye, Not So with ole' Rube! Mr. Foster was a Natural Born Leader. Don't Get me wrong here... They both had their place iN History... I Just think that Mr. Rube Foster was a Remarkable Human Being & the more I learn of Him... the More I Believe!

Derek... Your Typo was Just Classic!
TalkiN form da Grave RiGHT B4 ALL Hallow's Eve... Freeeaky Dude :(

Roberto Clemente was Puerto Rican.

How about Frank Robinson? First African-American manager in both leagues, and active in civil rights.

Rube or Buck
 

Would be my choice.

According to the Black Aces, the group of 20 game winners, darker complexioned folks from the islands do not count as "black". This caused a pissed-off Luis Tiant to quip, "I cannot help it if the slave ship stopped in Cuba first.":eek:

Frank Robinson

Effa Manley was probably white, at minimum bi-racial.

And this.

Where would the legends get their start/platform if there were no Negro Leagues? Rube Foster had a monster impact on the game.


Tim

Curt Flood gets my vote.

The question is hard to answer. I think to be truly influential you need to have changed the game of baseball forever. I think that Foster falls into the category of influential to African Americans, but he did not have a lot impact on Major League baseball. The players who would play in the Negro League certainly did, but Foster was far removed by that time. Though I of course understand there is no Negro League without him.

I choose Curt Flood because he influenced baseball at large, just like Jackie Robinson did when he broke the color barrier. After Curt Flood the game would never be the same, which is the same influence Robinson had on it.

Curt Flood because of the reserve clause.

Now, someone who could have been influential if he had not taken his energies and ego into pursuit of ticking off teammates and management alike-Reggie Jackson. If he had put his focus in another vein, he would have easily been on the list.

Have to go with Satchel Paige.

He gives meaning to the Johnny Cash song "I've Been Everywhere"

Definitely Rube Foster if we're talking pre-war baseball. Also, Dave Wyatt, a Negro baseball player/manager/journalist/supporter deserves mention.

I'd go with Paige

Hank Aaron for accomplishments and Buck O'Neill for creating more awareness.

Aaron would be hard to beat
 

Hank Aaron was the last Negro League player to play in the MLB. It's hard for players to overcome even slight media scrutiny and Aaron surpassed one of the two greatest feets in baseball history amongst death threats. His career stats are absolutely unbelievable and he has stayed relevant in baseball from the day he retired.

Pre-Jackie = Rube Foster
Post-Jackie = Hank Aaron

I don't think those choices could be any more esoteric. The most influential to the most people had to be Mays. I can see the call for Aaron and what his record did for the game, but I'm sticking with Mays.

Hank Aaron

Esoteric or not it is about the most influential person to the game. Just because people haven't heard the names doesn't mean they weren't the most influential person.

John Barber patented the Gas Turbine Engine, yet just because not everyone knows he was doesn't mean he wasn't influential in the history of engines.

Very well said Jeff.

This will sound like hyperbole, but Claxton was great, perhaps the greatest semi-professional ballplayer to ever play the game. Not to diminish Robinson's achievement but Claxton integrated the Tacoma Industrial League and Seattle Inter-City League in 1924. He even threw a no-hitter June 23, 1924 in the TIL. At the time, nearly 25% of the white male population in the United States was a member of the KKK. By the time Robinson and Doby played professional baseball, one of the largest institutions in the US, the armed services, had fully integrated. Quite the disparity in social circumstances.

I don't think you can go wrong with a list like this and I agree about Aaron, and others but I'm a hopeless Claxton apologist. Forgive my weaknesses.

Pumpsie Green. Firsts and lasts are always important. While the Dodgers were the first team to integrate, the Red Sox were the last, in 1959. Apparently, team owner Tom Yawkey fought the process. In fact, Jackie Robinson called Yawkey "one of the most bigoted guys in baseball."

Pre-war, Satchel Paige.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...nd%20Paige.jpg

The black sports writers
 

Sam Lacy, Wendell Smith, Frank A. Young, Joe Bostic, Chester L. Washington, W. Rollo Wilson, Dan Burley, Ed Harris, A.S. "Doc" Young and Romeo Dougherty

The players may have been performing the feats but without these guys no one hears about them. They also were very active in trying to set up tryouts and get mainstream support.

Along the same lines, but not black, Shirley Povich (yes Maury's dad) wrote some incredible editorials about integration in the 1930 and 40's

Hank Aaron

Willie Mays, might have been a great ball player but he sure does not represent a good man.
My choice which everyone seems not to remember is Larry Doby who had to suffer as much as Jackie.
The other play I would pick Is Don Newcomb who has represented like no one else.

Hank Aaron

If you were a black baseball fan in 1920? Seriously understood everything that was going on in ALL baseball at that time, and in the past, and could see the future , including the impact of all the future players mentioned here, I seriously doubt the word "esoteric" would cross your mind when Foster's name was brought up.

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Larry Doby - his efforts and struggles are overlooked in the wake of Jackie Robinson.

It should be remembered that he came up the same year in the other league before there was inter-league play...so, his treatment and 'reception' was most likely the same, though I have never read anything on it.

Before coast-to-coast TV coverage, you would only see players live at games and, in American League only cities, the only black player was Larry Doby.

Am I the only one who finds it more than a little odd that the first woman in the Hall is named Manley?:rolleyes:

Given that he was the most influential figure in black baseball other than Jackie, that seems impossible.

My rationale behind Paige is that while Foster was important, another capitalist african american would have likely replaced him in founding a league because of it's financial potential. Paige had no equal in terms of skill and personality and was a big force in driving integration. People wanted to know how good he really was. Then, at such an advanced age, performing so well and in the process capturing people's hearts with his unique style, and also the tragedy of what might have been in terms of major league numbers.

I disagree. "Most influential" to me means "had influence on the most people". You can't tell me that any of the guys in that poll had more influence on more people than Mays. To each his own, though.

Aaron, imho.

You should read up on Foster's life, and the various people and difficulties involved in getting a league started. There were plenty of capitalist african americans who were involved in trying to bring black baseball mainstream - it wasn't just a matter of there being a black african american capitalist available to do it.

I wouldn't have responded to this post, as I think most baseball historians are aware of what Foster went through and I'm not interested in arguing about documented history, but I would hate for others to think it was as simple as you make it sound.

+1

When you watch Ken Burns' Baseball documentary, you really understand how Flood changed the game.

PS- I'm embarrassed to admit, I did not know that Shirley Povich was Maury's dad. You learn something every day.

Leroy "Satchell" Paige
 

I agree with Adam W (Post #55).

I was a young avid BB fan in 1947 when Jackie Robinson was a rookie. And, Satchell Paige followed him.

I remember those years very clearly. You had to experience the excitement back in 1947 and 1948, respectively, to really
appreciate Jackie and Satchell. Those were very exciting times. And....in my opinion, the 1947 World Series (Yankees vs
Dodgers) was the greatest.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...llPaige50x.jpg


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...zaz/paige2.jpg......http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...zaz/paigeb.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...anPaige50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...xdobypaige.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eJRobbv59x.jpg



TED Z
.

Just wondering what you guys consider your choice's influence to be. I might be misunderstanding the spirit of the discussion but to me an influential person changes something forever. Jackie being the basis is throwing me off.

I'd have to agree with everyone that said Rube Foster. With that said, Buck O'Neil may have been the nicest human being that I've ever met.

Leroy "Satchell" Paige
 

I agree with Ted Z.

Leroy "Satchell" Paige and San Diego's John Ritchey on the west coast....

I didn't mean to make it sound simple or belittle it, though I see it is easily perceived that way. I am aware of the process of securing financing such an undertaking. Merely I was saying I believe in all likelihood given the potential for profit that someone else would likely have done it, though not necessarily with the skill foster did. There is no one who had the combination of talent and charisma to be satchel paige other than the man. That was my only point

The following page contains an article that I wrote a couple of years ago about black baseball in Chicago and Kansas City that discusses some of what Foster was involved with. It also describes other African Americans who were instrumental in pushing black baseball forward in the early 1900's: http://www.t206themonster.com/Articles.html

Thanks Scott, and very well written and explained.

Thanks Dennis - you may be the only person other than my editor, to ever have read it! :)

The article was primarily about what was going on in 1909-12; however, to put things in context I had to study up on everything from the late 1800's through Foster's creation of the Negro National League. But all of that has already been written about.

I put other.

For Pre War I would go with Satchel Paige.

He was certainly one of the reasons for the color barrier falling.

For post war, I would go with Hank Aaron

Hank Aaron was the first black player to break a true major offensive career record. He broke the most cherished record of the most popular, iconic player who ever lived. He did so with boundless grace and class, which has been the man's hallmark for his entire public life. He won the popular support of casual white American fans all over the country. When he came into the game it was still partly segregated, as was the South. He went into the deep South only a few years after the civil rights laws were passed and won over the fans to the point where he graced the covers of Atlanta Braves schedules in 1970 and1974. When he exited the game Jim Crow was dead and he was a superstar. When Aaron started many whites asked why a black player should be allowed to play. When he broke the record in 1974 the vast majority asked why shouldn't a black player be allowed to play. If Jackie opened the road, Hank more than anyone else paved it and put in a super highway.

I went with other

Aaron had the weight of the world on his shoulders shortly after racial tensions in the country and performed at a high level