Mantle Ball - UDA vs PSA 9
 

I am looking to purchase a Mickey Mantle autographed baseball. What would you choose between a UDA ball with minor toning or a PSA mint 9 ball and why? Thx.

You have to go with your gut feeling of what autograph you will be most combfortable with to look at and be happiest with. UDA the balls are signed in front of notarys as witnesses I believe while PSA is just their "Expert opinion" PSA is good and even the UDA is not foolproof. The stickers they attach sometimes come off and could be attached to a forged ball. So bottom line if ball wasnt signed in front of you you can never be 100 percent certain. But to the toning issue, I have some balls with Brown being comish that have toning due to some flaw with leather from Hati I belive and the toning only gets worse and worse with time so take that into concideration as well. Good luck

Thanks. I was able to confirm the authenticity of the UDA ball with Upper Deck. As to the toning issue, is there any risk that a PSA mint 9 ball would eventually tone as well, which would no longer make it a mint ball just as a result of time? I wonder how valuable a mint ball is if it will eventually lose its condition over time. I know it comes down to me, but what would you do?

What I was saying is I have a ball that UDA sticker fell off of, what is to say I couldnt attach tat sticker to a fake ball sell it and keep good ball. Understand? As far as toning all ball I believe will age and sunlight to some extend. Did PSA put ball in a cube? You might reseach but I have seen UVA resistant cubes that block ultra violet rays

If it is on a BB ball and it hasnt gone bad by now. I would not worry about. I just dont think you should pay extra for a graded ball. Go look on line and see if you see a nice uda ball and buy it. I would rather have a UDA ball over a JSA any time.
They are not signed in front of a notery.

Went to PSA site, there cubes are UV coated as well as the have a invisable stamp for authenticating. There are no gaurantees in life but you give yourself a better chance at keeping ball white in UV case I would think. Again no expert just a collector

Shelly UDA does use a notery correct?

I just don't quite understand why the PSA graded ball always seems to sell at a higher price than a UDA first person authenticated ball. Not sure which will retain greater value in the future.

are you looking to keep it or sell it? If I am keeping it i would much rather have a ball that is known to be authentic that a ball that has someones "expert opinion" its real just my feeling on it. PSA has done a great job of convincing public that if they certify item its 100 percent legit. As we have seen not always the case. Do your research and be comfortable with ball you buy. If anything these guys have taught me its that. DYODD

No . Here is there site no mention of notary.
http://sports.upperdeck.com/memorabi...ity_5step.aspx

Because it is all bs. If your buying the ball to keep. Buy the UDA ball and be happy. It is total garbage gradeing a ball. It can fade it can become spoted or it can be handled the wrong way and there goes your bs nine.:mad:

So how did that work? Did they just send a bunch of balls to mick he signed (or someone signed ) then sent back?

Any one can buy a uv case. It looses its look when you have PSA or JSA written all over it.:(

Good point. If Mick was signed to a contract with UDA near the end of his career, I wonder how it is that he was able to sign a pristine ball as I do not believe the signature predated 1990, after which he was under UDA contract. I guess you just have to trust PSA on that. But yeah, seems strange to me that a ball with an opinion can cost so much more than a ball that is first person authenticated. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Won't every ball turn brown eventually? I know UV cases have only been around for so long, but it seems like leather will always age. Or at least it has aged in a consistent way for a long time.

Mickey signed with UDA after his career and closer to his death, he signed with them mid 90's if memory severs well. He did alot of card shows as well mid 90's before he died. If it is UDA authenticated it was signed long after his playing days. As far as ball toning as I understand it the balls from bobby brown made in haiti didnt use distilled water and that led to it but besides that keeping in an UV case should really help. someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I have two team-signed balls that are over 40 years old, and both look brand-new. Entropy eventually gets everything, but it could be thousands of years.

do you display theses balls scott? if so in a UV holder?

The Mantle comment with UDA is spot on, was with them from around 93-94. He was their first exclusive athlete, and then-like now-there stuff is 100%. Given a choice between UDA witnessed signature and PSA, it is a no brainier to me.

Ninty nine percent of all Mantle balls you see for sale are after he quit baseball.
If I where to buy a ball from todays market it would be a UDA.
Why whould you ever need any third party to authenticate and pay more. Look ask and find a clean ball. If the person that sold it to you lied send it back untill you get what you want.
In answer to your question. Mick either signed with a UDA person there or it was done at corperate.

Yes, normally it is a no brainer. However, would your opinion change if the UDA ball had minor toning and the PSA is mint graded? Would you ever choose a ball based on its better condition if it means 3rd party authenticated?

no!!!!!!!!!! I want real deal...thats just me. want to go to sleep knowing money was wall spent

Michael, one has spent most of its life (since '73) in a dark box, but several years, off and on, out in the open, exposed - it's now in a dark basement and never sees sunlight, and very little bulb light. I bought the other one (1967 ball) last year and my suspicion is that it's also spent its life buried in a box somewhere. But I don't know. I'm old enough, and these balls of low enough value, that I'm not concerned about much of anything happening to them during my lifetime, but all of my other exposed autographs of any value (stuff I will pass down or perhaps sell someday), are behind uv-protected glass. I think it makes sense, even if I'm not sure it is necessary.

There will always be exceptions of course. But I don't know if just sunlight is the cause of the browning. The same aging is evident on many baseballs and who knows what environments they were in. But it is consistent. Maybe it's only sun, maybe its a combination of things.

I think you are right that it is a combination of things. Regarding most of the 'brown' ones - if they are not shellacked, do they look like they've been consistently handled? I ask because I can't remember ever seeing a ball that looks un-handled (like my two), but is browned. The only exception is the ones that have had shellack or similar substances applied.

I think you are right that it is a combination of things. Regarding most of the 'brown' ones - if they are not shellacked, do they look like they've been consistently handled? I ask because I can't remember ever seeing a ball that looks un-handled (like my two), but is browned. The only exception is the ones that have had shellack or similar substances applied.

You'd really have to buy the autograph and not the stupid sticker. The one thing about the upperdeck balls he signed is that they tone like a bit**, right in the bag and box they come in. Even if they are never displayed. It is almost impossible to find a so called UD "9".

The funny thing about some of the Bobby Brown AL balls is that if they haven't toned by now, usually they won't. same with the signature.

Signatures on selig balls that are graded will almost always fade over time for some reason, but the OLD balls that do not have a propensity for toning, somehow won't & don't?

As an owner of 10 Mantle balls, I would never pay a premium for a graded ball...EVER. I think it's moronic. My favorite Mantle balls are ones that are SNOW WHITE with-out some stupid sticker and they were purchased for a fraction of the cost of a stupid PSA 9, and much much nicer. Yes I have a PSA and a couple JSA Mantles thrown in there, but that's only because I was still learning his signature when I purchased them years ago. They almost always get Mantle right at least. Good luck.

Really? I see scattered toning on baseballs all the time. It's usually brown spots in seemingly random locations that look to me like they'll eventually spread to cover the entire baseball.

Here's just one example:

Clean Sweep 500 Homers

That looks like a light coating of shellack or something similar.

I don't think so. It's natural toning. I don't know what causes it, but it's something that naturally happens. Probably influenced by sunlight, but I don't think it's only sunlight.

Eddie Mathews

Lee Smith

Yaz

The first and third one look like game use or batting practice use.

No excuse for the Lee Smith ball - looks like it must be some sort of impurity in the leather or the yellowing you describe, from just sitting around exposed.

But I really don't know - I actually had a third ball that I got signed in 1973, and it also looks pristine, although I gave it to my brother last year. So perhaps I've been lucky, but my experience is that as long as you aren't handling them a lot (when I was a kid, I even handled these quite a bit, with no ill effects over time), and they were fresh out of a box to begin with, you don't get the yellowing/browning you are describing.

Does anyone have a ball that was never rubbed up or otherwise handled other than for signing and occasional viewing, that turned yellow or brown in areas?

I have plenty, just none on hand for a photo. I highly doubt they're game used or practice used as they both have inscriptions and were likely signed at a show.

It's just something that happens. The UDA ball mentioned in the original post is also noted as toned. I would assume that was a brand new ball when signed.

I'm asking for examples that you have owned for the entire period, not ones that you bought that you are making assumptions about to support your thinking.

I could be totally wrong about this, but I would like to see some real examples from forum members. So far, I'm the only one who has any, and I have three pristine 40+ year old examples. One was a very cheap (but leather) ball I bought at a drugstore, another was a more expensive, but still cheap, ball that I bought at the drugstore, and the third is an official NL ball.

But you could be a lot younger than me, which makes my request unfair, unless you have 'younger' balls that have yellowed :eek: Anyone else?

What do you mean by real examples? The UDA ball is described as toned. Why would it have been anything other than a new ball when signed?

It is a common occurrence.

Okay, you win the discussion. If you just wanted to make a declaration and have everyone shut up and listen, you should have given us a hint.

As usual, you have ignored anything in the discussion that doesn't support your point of view. If you would have an open mind every now and then, you might learn something.

Bye.

What point of view? That baseballs get brown tone spots for natural reasons that might be a combination of factors? Is that so outrageous?

Holy crap. You really never give up until you are declared 'correct'. You did it with the Strasburg discussion and about every other discussion where anyone has had a point of view different from yours.

All I did was ask ANYONE to provide an example of a ball that they have had for a long time, that has yellowed for unknown reasons. Why did that piss you off so much?

Seriously, just discuss things every now and then without feeling like you have to 'win'. This is, after all, a discussion forum.

I'm not pissed off. I shared my observation and then posted some links to examples of the kind of toning I've experienced.

Here's a Mantle UDA that was rarely handled if ever and only on the stitches. It has been in the bag in the box since purchased in the 90's... It still has some toning????

what is it you don't get that ALL 99% of the UDA Mantle & Ted Williams balls for that matter TONE like a bitch. No matter if they are displayed or not. There is something in the ionized water that was used or something like that? Some of them spot like a raccoon and some of them just brown and blotch.

The ball is an 8 and the signature is an 9, therefore it's a Fudd 8.5. Near Mint. Much more reliable than the scammers at PSA grading of a 9. LOL

Here's a Fudd 10 for reference with NO stupid sticker. 10 on the ball and 10 on the BOLD signature. MINT:D

another Fudd 9 for reference. 10 for the signature & 8 for the ball. Ball would be a 9 if not for the toning spots on the back

Those are NICE looking balls. Frankly, I don't see any toning on that first ball. Snow white in the pics. Which would you rather have, a uda toned ball or psa mint ball? (I'm talking about a ball with slightly more toning than yours.)

quite frankly, neither. I only want MINT baby MINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!would NEVER pay the premium for PSA to grade my balls, no pun intended.

I'd pass on both and move on. That's just me. It should be noted that I don't and won't collect anymore because of Anal Eddies (guys who have to have a COA), scam artists and E-bay working in conjunction to shove it in the A** of the sorry idiots that can't help themselves from buying forgeries trying to save a buck. COMPLETE MORONS

Either is an ok choice for authenticity purposes, but I think you're narrowing yourself into a corner, IMHO. KEEP LOOKING:eek::eek::eek:

You really believe a 3rd party authentication is just as good as a 1st party authentication?

I would still pick the UDA ball. After reading about all the horror stories on here, I don't think I would ever even buy a Mantle ball without UDA, unless another company like Steiner did Mantle balls, which I don't think they did (somebody can correct me here). But I think the % of fake Mantle balls out there are just too high....I'd stick with something reliable like UDA.

Plus, recently I saw a bunch of Koufax balls authenticated by PSA and JSA and they were all bogus sigs. My confidence in their opinions is just getting worse and worse as the years go on.

I said this from the start. By a real Mantle ball that is clean and nice. UDA or not. If you see one you like and it is not authenticated show it here. Dont be a fool and buy a graded ball. It does not mean a thing. :D

Do the work yourself PERIOD. It doesn't make a rats ass of a difference. Just look at the stupid autograph for cryin out loud. 2 of the 3 I showed you don't have a thing on the ball. I did my own authentication and I don't care what any child like moron with a sticker or a stamps says. Do you have rocks for brains or just ADHD? or just a hard head? Just wondering? AND yes, Mantle fakes out weigh the real ones 10-1. They stand out like a sore thumb. If you can't tell the difference, maybe you should collect train sets

Didnt mantle sign with ScoreBoard INC before UDA. Could have sworn Service merchindise and places like that sold them before he went to UDA

agreed Shelly. Some people have a hard time listening. I'm done trying to help people who can't help themselves and don't want to listen to people who know more than them on a particular subject.

I can only imagine how this anal attitude translates to business decisions?

The secret to my success in life is asking for advice from friends who know more than me on a particular subject. AND THEN LISTENING TO THEM. Is it really that hard, NO:rolleyes::confused::(:cool:

Calm down. I'm not saying I'm not listening to you or to Shelly. I'm learning from you both so I am listening. I'm also interested in hearing from others as to what they would do also. Everyone has a different opinion and in the end after listening to everyone, I'd like to form my own opinion. That's what these boards are for. To chat with other like minded individuals and share thoughts. Any other thoughts you care to continue sharing, I'll still be listening.;)

Yes they did. Score Board was around long before UDA. The had a whole lot of people that went on to sign with UDA. AAron, Williams,Mantle, Montana to name a few.

I would not listen to anyone one that has given you a suggestion. You know what you want go a enjoy yourself.:eek:

Actually, I'm not sure what I want. I want to be sure an autograph is authentic (at least as sure as I can be) and I also want an item that is rare (mint condition). Finding both is very difficult as one other already person noted saying most UDA balls are toned. Thus, it would be helpful to me to hear how others would handle the same situation. If we all just said to do whatever I want and that's all, these boards would be useless to ask any advice. I take it many on here know a lot more than me and I would be interested in hearing these thoughts. In the end, I can determine if I find value in what others say.

From what I've gathered thus far, UDA would provide me with comfort the signature is 100% authentic. However, the toning on the ball means the mint graded ball would carry a greater value if I ever wanted to sell the item down the line. Regardless of whether or not one favors PSA, there is no denying their value in the marketplace.

So UDA uses special balls that tone more than other baseballs. Okay, that makes sense.

I think I would wait for a better ball , because it seems that you are unsure what to do and that is not unusual in this hobby, we all have faced that situation before. I would look at my budget and see what I can afford and get the best ball possible when I can afford it even if it is a 10( that is the only grade Mantle I would even consider becaiuse they are available) . Mantle is neither rare or expensive, for most of his baseballs . But keep in mind that PSA and JSA are not infallible as this site and common knowledge have shown; however UDA will give you an "ironclad" item that may tone over time, but ANY autographed ball can tone over time no matter who or where you bought it from; so long term toning can be an issue based on many factors not just the vendor.
Also most Mantle balls are not great investments, in my opinion, because their prices have stabilized and there are plenty of authentic ones to choose from.
Good Luck

The reason I asked is my baseball from mantle was from scoreboard. Has ZERO toning and while its not in direct light it hasnt been a box either. But I believe ball was produced prior to the non distilled Haiti balls..And while not proud of it it was handled quite a bit early 90's. I was young and all my friends were like "dude can I take it out of the case?" haha being the cool guy I said "why sure!!!" But still to this day no toning. I have a reggie UDA ball tat I bought years later displayed side by side that is starting to look brownish. Also an In person Johhny Bench at a denver show that has splotched everywhere. All displayed side by side

Michael, thanks for posting this. I don't mind being ignored, but when it's a legitimate question, it's good to finally get a response from someone. It sounds like you are saying that 'distilled' has something to do with toning. Is that correct?

My 2 cents.

Toning on a baseball has NEVER bothered me. I love autographs. Period.

I own two Ken Griffey autographed baseballs from Scoreboard (with their original Scoreboard boxes) and both of them have a fair amount of toning.

I also own four Derek Jeter rookie autographed baseballs from Scoreboard. All four are bright white.

All of my Mickey Mantle autographed baseballs are bright white except for one which has one spot of toning.

I also have a 1998 in-person Derek Jeter autographed baseball. It is heavily toned.

Just be happy with owning an authentic autograph.

I also think that some toning adds character to a baseball.

wait for a nice ball in your price range (either uda or psa). if psa can't authenticate a mantle ball then just close up shop on this hobby.

Were you specifically addressing this to me, Chuck, or were you speaking in generalities? Because if you were speaking to me directly, I don't understand what your problem is. Your choice of words and tone reflects pretty badly on yourself.:confused: And by the way, if you feel confident in your Mantle balls, that's fine, but for some of us who don't want to take that gamble on autographs that are highly targeted by expert forgers, we prefer not to be duped and can live without having a high percentage forged autograph, like a Mantle ball. I was just saying, if I'm in the market for a Mantle ball, I would definitely choose UDA over a TPA.

No dog at all in this fight, but you quote you bought a few psa and jsa mantles when you were still learning, so why berate someone in a similar position. As an aside, to the OP, if you find a Mantle ball you really like, not authenticated, and want reassurance, pm me and I can tell you almost with certainty if it is real. You will probably get a steal of a price too as non authenticated mantles sell all the time on ebay for low prices.

Scott that was my question for you guys. I had always heard that the bobby brown bals some of them were flawed due to leather being processed in non distilled water. I was wondering from you guys if you belive this to be true as well. thanks. And was definatly not ignoreing you. Value your opionion very much....mike

You can purchase a decent Mickey Mantle autographed baseball in the $350.00 range with a PSA/JSA cert.

A UDA ball will cost $400.00 or more.

If you take some time to learn The Mick's signature, there are some great deals out there.

I've purchase a few Mantle sigs on baseballs for under $150.00.

Good luck.

It is true

Thanks, jason. Would you ever purchase a Mantle ball based on your own evaluation of hiis sig? Or would you require a coa?

Also, on the Koufax balls, are you saying they were bogus based on your own evaluation or was this publicly acknowledged by psa?

Thanks, for sharing your thoughts!

Thank you so much for the offer. If i find one, i'll take you up.

If I ever get to the point where I feel comfortable in determining authentic Mantles, I may purchase one. But I already have a few from the '80s that I got in person (photos), so, I think I'm good for now. Plus, I was never a big Mantle guy anyways. :p

Regarding the Koufax balls...I'm saying they were bogus based on my own evaluation. There are certain known forged or secretarials of Koufax and I've seen PSA and JSA certs on them quite often.

Can you send me some scans of the balls you think are bad or put them on the net.

Mike, Shelly has said "it is true", so there's our answer, and it makes sense. When I attempted to flatten the leather panels I removed from a '56 baseball, I was told by a leather expert that I should use distilled water.

Here's one style that I see often offered on internet auctions. I know that some may think it was a rushed Koufax...but even if it IS a rushed signature, why would anybody buy it when there are so many better examples available? This one comes with a JSA cert.

https://pristineauction.com/a209548-...-JSA-ALOA.html

https://pristineauction.s3.amazonaws...uction.com.jpg

I came accross an article years back on internet about it was due to like a 6 year period of production in Haiti that they didnt use distilled water that aided in this problem. and im talking more like toning splotches more than I am talking about a natural leather aging. The splotches I have on some of my balls from that time period look like light patches here and there on balls. And I have never handled them or had them in direct sunlight. This is a pretty good thread we have kept going for sure

Jason, I went at look at the most resent steiner. I am sorry to say that I think age has become a factor and he signiture really has changed for the worst.

Try pitching a ball a million times in a lifetime im guessing anyones hands would shake. I saw John Elway on tv after retirement his hand seemed to shake as well as he said he cant lift his throwing arm above shoulder height. The price these atheletes bodies pay is unreal

When I got Koufax in person at spring training this year there was a real crush for him. It's hard to sign in that environment. The Steiner balls don't look too bad to me. There's something weird about the flow in them though. My ball might be sloppy but it's got some style. The Steiners look stiff.

Shelly, If the one I posted is authentic, then I'm surprised it deteriorated so quickly....but personally, I still wouldn't buy one that looks like the one I posted above. Koufax' signature (at least up until a couple of years ago) looked much better than this. If his hand has gotten that bad, that's really a shame as he had one of the nicer signatures IMO.
I guess the same has happened to Hank Aaron's as well. I never realized it got so bad until a few years ago.

I am not saying I like that autograph. I am saying it is getting harder to figure if it is good or not. Here is a steiner piece.

Attachment 161141

For those recommending one gets familiar with an autograph and purchase w/o some sort of coa, read this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.759026

I don't have that kind of confidence if joe montana can't even tell his own signaturevfrom a forgery.:confused:

As a 10 year old kid I went to a show at the Cincy Gardens and got Mantle ($50) on a Bobby Brown Haiti ball. It has never shown any toning.

But then again, that's why you can't rely on those TPAs...since those guys opinions aren't any better (and in many cases, worse) than your's or mine. At least with UDA, Steiner, etc,there's a better chance the sigs were signed in front of somebody ethical (at least we're led to believe so).

By the way, I know that article is old, but I read this part and was amazed:
"..Or how he would find just the right combination of insects to come up with an ageless ink." ....Holy crap...I didn't know they used insects to come up with a vintage looking ink! Really amazing....:eek: