Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's
 

I was listening to ESPN a couple of days ago and Tim Kurkjian was speaking on where Derek Jeter placed in the discussion of greatest SS's. His list was:

Wagner
Vaughan
Jeter
Ripken
Smith

I think he had Larkin in the discussion as well. Said Jeter would be considered as high as 2 and no lower than 6.

Just curious what others thoughts were on this position in history?

I think he is three, behind Wagner and Ripken. Ozzie Smith shouldn't be on the list (no matter how long the list is).

Some old timers swear by Marty Marion as a top 5

I'm a Yanks fan but I'd rate him 2nd. Maybe Ripken's time at 3b might hurt him a bit and lower average. Obviously he had more pop and the streak. I'd give Jeter the edge over Ripken by a little.

Kurkjian is either discounting A-Rod because of his time at 3B or because of the PEDs but he played more than half his career games at SS so I would put him at #2 behind Wagner w/Ripken third. After that it's apples and oranges w/several players including Jeter that could be considered for the fourth spot. Vaughan, Larkin, Appling Boudreau, Yount, Dahlen, Ozzie, George Davis and probably a few others are pretty close in value. Personally I would put Davis and Vaughan in a tie for fourth and fifth.

Re: Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's
 

Funny, I was talking to brother about this same topic a couple of days ago.
We never did come up with a consensus. I suppose it could be argued that any
name on the list you/Kurkjian provided could be considered the best SS ever.

I personally think while Ripken's consecutive game streak is impressive, his
.276 career batting average and 36 career stolen bases quickly disqualifies
him as being the best SS. The same holds true of Ozzie Smith's career 28
home runs and .262 batting average.

It's a bit unfair to try and compare players whom I've never seen play (ie
Wagner, Waner), so if I had to choose, I'd go with Jeter. For the last 20
seasons Derek Jeter had been the glue to hold the Yankees together. I don't
think we'll see the likes of another Jeter type for many years to come.

Just my humble opinion,

ErikV

Best shortstop of all time, 7 time all star, 2 time NL MVP... Ernie Banks. :)

Ernie Banks needs to be on the list. Yes, he played the second half of his career at 1st, but two MVP seasons as a shortstop...

Yount should maybe enter the conversation as well.

And Jeter should have changed positions at least a few seasons ago. He still has great hands and a good arm, but his range is horrible. He shouldn't get more consideration as a shortstop just because his ego wouldn't allow him to change positions versus a guy like Cal that took one for the team and made the switch late in his career.

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. ???

I agree that ARod should be in discussion.

I also do not think Ripken is in the top 5.

Considering SS is one of the most important defensive positions, I think should hold immense weight when discussing greatest SS's.

Jeter is a slight notch above Smith, Trammell and then Larkin. If numbers don't lie, then look them up. The defensive ones too.

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

If Ripken had played his career in New York over the same time period as Jeter this wouldn't even be a debate. Cal played on a lot of bad teams in Baltimore while Jeter played on better teams. Jeter is a great player but he ranks easily behind Ripken. Cal's defensive WAR is #4 in the history of the game at 38.8. Jeter's is (-9.6). Jeter has 3400+hits while Cal ONLY had 3100, but with a lot more power.

I don't mean to discredit Jeter, he's a great player. He'll be a first ballot HOFer. He's my generation's New York legend. I'd just pick Ripken if I had to choose between the 2 when building my ball club. But it's really just a discussion over #2 because no one is supplanting Honus anytime soon. ARod could have made my top 5 if he'd had kept his nose clean, but his numbers are meaningless in my eyes at this point.

1) Wagner
2) Ripken
3) Jeter
4) Yount
5) Vaughn

It's funny because we romanticize old legendary players it's sometimes hard to figure out where they truly stand in history.

Wagner is almost unanimously considered the greatest shortstop and against his contemporaries (which IMO is how it SHOULD be judged) there is no doubt. But was he really better than Ripken or Jeter if you put him on today's field?

It's something we will never know but I i have always been curious how Ruth or Foxx or Mathewson would have fared against modern players.

This is why comparing greats across generations is so very difficult. To be accurate, you can only rank them within their own time. Babe Ruth would have had to be in better shape to be productive, Walter Johnson may have only been 'moderately fast' by today's standards. On the other hand, what if the old-timers had had all of the training and nutritional advantages that today's stars have....you could go back and forth forever about this...and I believe we will...part of the allure of the history of the game. '...a haunted game in which every players is compared to the ghosts of all those who came before.'

That's why I hate when people bring up the past players talking about how they would do now, but not vice versa. Do you think any of these pampered stars would last a season riding trains, working an off-season job, playing with a scuffed up ball that gets thrown at their helmetless head if they crowd the plate, and using chewing tobacco spit as a form of healing a spike wound? 90% of them wouldn't last half a season playing in those old wool unis, always day games and exhibition games scheduled for off-days. Most of them would be a crying mess after the first week, calling their moms like a fat kid at summer camp. And people now think these guys are the better players, ha!

There isn't a shortstop that's played this game that should be mentioned in the same breath as Honus Wagner and I'm a Pirates fan that thinks Arky Vaughan was the second best shortstop of all-time. He's no Wagner though, not close.

I do not think guys who played half their careers at other positions should be counted in the discussion.

I also Feel as though it is very tough to compare but the discussion is what makes baseball fun.

I remember as a kid we would challenge and test each other on who was the best at different positions and just seeing if we could name the greats in history. Great memories!

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

the missing ones
 

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

old Judge....
 

Totally agree....

Wagner, Ripken, Jeter:)

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

I would agree Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer, but I am not sure I would take him in the top five shortstops, if so he would probably be #5. We are in this weird era where we unreasonably amplify a person's achievements at the time of their death or at their retirement. I remember someone saying that Tony Gwynn was not only one of the best baseball players ever, but the best people ever. That's a really big claim. When Gerald Ford died I remember someone comparing him to Lincoln. There's not really a great harm in it, but it doesn't mean it's accurate. Jeter was consistently excellent for a very long time, but I am not sure there was a moment when he was considered the most dominant player in the game, a claim two of his contemporaries at the same position could argue (Rodriguez and possibly Garciaparra).

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

It's weird how Jeter's WAR stats are really mediocre (12th among SSs) but in some other categories he is really high (11th among ALL players in hof monitor). Bottom line, one of those players I think that just defies statistics. ARod blows him away statistically, but who would you want?

Arod is #2, at the VERY least. 40/40, batting title, three 40 homer seasons, and Gold Glove-level defense - all before leaving Seattle. Whatever came later, at their very best, Ripken, Jeter, et al, simply couldn't touch the player Arod was in Seattle.

Definition of a bad day.

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop. :)

Have Jeter put up the same stats while playing short stop for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the last 20 years and see how many people drool over him as compared to him being on the Yankees......

If Dave Concepcion or Alan Trammell had put up their stats while playing for the Yankees, both would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

David

I have always agreed that there is a Yankee bias in baseball as well as a Giants, Bears and Steelers bias in football. But I still believe (and I am not a Yankee fan) that Jeter would be in the discussion for best ever no matter where he played, but of course that's pure speculation

Alex had six. Consecutive.

I am a 25 year SABR guy but WAR and some of the other new stats are just garbage for math guys to feel like they are part of the game.

Wagner is in a class by himself while defensively Ozzie is so far ahead of everyone else it is not funny.

Then come the offensive guys!

A-Roid is a cheater. There is no need to consider anything else. His record is tainted.

A plug here for Arky Vaughan. Truly a victim of his teams in terms of publicity and recognition today. I'd take him and Mazeroski as a DP combo any day.

I don't know that the true half-career players should be considered in the same breath as a career SS.

Omar V. Another amazing player who is not given his due. I'll take him and Mazeroski too.

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved.

Enough about Arod. On the juice since day 1.

I can certainly figure out how a SS can save a run. What in saying is they don't do it 100 times a year. I'd venture it's more like 10-15. Tops. It simply doesn't come up that often.

I think you would have to rank the players by performance in their primes. For me it would be

(1) Alex Rodriguez
(2) Honus Wagner
(3) Derek Jeter

Alex Rodriguez also put those numbers up in an era when there were video game offensive numbers. I'm not saying that Rodriguez wasn't a great player, but his numbers are inflated playing in the era he did.

To me, Ernie Banks hitting 40 home runs a season as a shortstop is far more impressive than Alex Rodriguez doing it. And again, keeping the era in mind, what Robin Yount did in 1982 is more impressive than any season Rodriguez ever had as as a shortstop.

And another awful ESPN Baseball talking head is heard from. :rolleyes: Jeter even being considered the second best shortstop in baseball history is a complete joke.

How is Robin Yount not on his list? He was a shortstop for ten years, the last half of which he was the best in the game.

Jeter has played shortstop for twenty seasons. His highest WAR ratings:

1999: 8.0
1998: 7.5
2009: 6.5
2006: 5.5
2001: 5.2

Yount's highest WAR ratings while a shortstop:

1982: 10.5
1983: 7.3
1980: 7.1
1984: 5.9
1978: 5.0
1981: 4.9 * (projects to between a 7.2 and a 7.5 without the strike)

1981 was the strike-shortened season. There were only 109 games played, of which Yount played in 96. 53 games were lost that season, which is almost exactly 1/3 of a whole season. Yount's 4.9 WAR was achieved in 96 games. Give him another 45 games or more, and he's anywhere between a 7.2 and a 7.5.

In his twenty seasons at shortstop, Jeter managed two seasons with a 7 + WAR. Yount managed three playing half as many seasons at short, and clearly would have had a fourth in 1981 if not for the strike that season. And, that's with him playing his first season, 1974, as an 18 year old. Jeter was 21 his first full season.

Yount defensively blows Jeter out of the water. How Jeter managed to get 5 Gold Glove Awards is a mystery on par with Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

Jeter's dWAR in 20 seasons as a shortstop is a -9.5.
Yount's dWAR in 10 seasons as a shortstop is a 12.5.

Yet Jeter has 5 Gold Gloves, and Yount got one.

Sure...right. :rolleyes:

I agree, as much as I admire Jeter, a strong case can be made that he isn't even a top 10 SS.

Yup.

I looked more at their defensive ratings. I'm still trying to figure out how Jeter, not Yount, has 5 Gold Gloves.

RF/9 (range factor per 9 innings):
Jeter career 4.06
Yount career 5.13

Career double plays:
Jeter 1,400 in 2,636 games (.531/game)
Yount 941 in 1,479 games (.636/game)

Rtz -- Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on fielding plays made.

Jeter career -152
Yount 18

My list
 

Wagner
Banks
Ripken
Jeter
Yount

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

In their prime, Arod & Nomar were always better defensively & offensively with batting titles & MVP's. If Arod didn't move to 3rd, Jeter would've never won a Gold Glove or Silver Slugger award. Jeter has obviously had the longevity/consistency to be in the top 10. But, to Arod's point, Jeter never had to be the guy. He was overrated defensively, never hit for power, but was a solid hitter for average. If he wasn't on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be thought of in the top 10 even though he should be. Wagner for sure is #1, but not sure where I'd put Jeter. He isn't close to the best defensively or offensively, but as a total package, a model of reliability. So, somewhere in the top 10.

Please, please, please...somebody look up Don Mattingly's Defensive WAR stats and then try to tell me it's not the most arbitrary/ridiculous statistic ever conceived. Especially when it pertains to anybody pre-2006 or so.

Now, keep in mind, if you are going to defend it, please tell me how it's accurately calibrated by giving an answer other then "Computers, they does it".

;)

Raymond and Tim Kurkjian picked a gem: Vaughan
 

[emphasis added]

That Tim Kurkjian included Vaughan so high was, frankly, suprising - pleasingly so. And Raymond's comment is spot-on, in my view. It's amazing to me that Arky was ignored so long by the Baseball Writers (who had years to honor him but did not) but, belatedly, was selected by the much reviled Committee on Veterans.

I like:

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. Vizquel
6. Smith
7. Yount
8. Jeter
9. Larkin
10. Trammell

Wagner, Banks, Jeter, Ripken, Yount, Vaughan

Could be biased, I love Jeter and always thought Ripken was overrated a bit due to the streak

I grew up watching Mark Belanger and I would put him with anyone in a purely fielding discussion.

Are you guys serious? Are we talking purely playing the position? If so has to be Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2. I know this is a pre war forum but there is no way Jeter is in the top 10 let alone 5. Ripken not even top 5. I highly doubt Wagner would be either. Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. That is like saying Barry Bonds had a better arm than Ellis Valentine.

Gee, I thought shortstops had a place in the batting order and didn't just field. Ozzie Smith was a phenomenal fielder. But, without running any metrics, I would be astonished if the runs he saved in the field were equal to or more than the runs produced by the better hitters at shortstop such as Wagner, Vaughn, Ripkin. Yount, Banks, etc. And most of them were decent fielders too. At the least, the disparity between their fielding and that of Ozzie was not nearly so great (albeit I grant that fielding is much more difficult to measure) than the disparity between Ozzie at the plate and any of the other shortstops I've mentioned. Ozzie isn't number one, period, unless you are only looking at half an inning. Not now, not ever. Neither is Omar number two. They were both great, but they weren't the greatest and second best. That is still Wagner and, IMO, Vaughn and then probably Banks.

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

Let's remember what the subject is specifically, not which player who played shortstop (for Yount & Banks) is the best overall player...

just which is the best shortstop.

Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. Ozzie is on top without nobody close if we are only talking about the position defensively. Like I said if we factor in offensive numbers it may be a lot different. We did not watch but I would go out on a limb and say there is no way Wagner got to the balls he did. Yount was extremely talented but no where close on defensive range. Vizquel would be the only one closer. Jeter, Ripken, Vaughan, Yount no. If you go by offensive numbers then Ozzie would not be in top 5.

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

Underrated is Alan Trammell.

BB Ref lifetime WAR
Larkin 70.2
Trammell 70.4

Larkin 1st ballot HoFer, and Trammell nowhere close to induction.

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

[QUOTE=bbcard1;1305787]I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.[/QUOTE
Offensive WAR, I believe, rates Jeter's production as compared to other shortstops only. Foxx ranks lower because he is rated against first basemen which in his time alone included Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Hal Trosky, etc.

I'm right there with you on Joe Cronin; can't believe he's not on more lists here in the thread. Wagner was the best at the position, but Cronin should be up there….

This Means WAR
 

As far as I can tell Joe and Jimmy never played shortstop. However, I decided to ask them:

Me, to Double X: Jimmy, tell me about your WAR years.

XX: I was lucky enough to have my career fall between both of them.


Me, to Joe: Tell me about your WAR years.

DiMag: I went from California to Hawaiii to Atlantic City.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIZwv5aENQ

Using 250 steals as an arbitrary cutoff to boost the profile of Yount is kinda weak. Drop the number to 240 and Hank Aaron gets included, for example. Barring that, do we seriously believe that Yount belongs in any discussion that includes Mays, Musial, Aaron, Cobb, etc? C'mon.

And the reason Yount has only one Gold Glove? His name is Alan Trammell.

I know that I did briefly mention statistical plateaus that Yount reached, and how it was more impressive that Yount reached them as a shortstop. But the statistical comps I put up immediately afterword weren't meant to exclude Ripken, or anybody else. In fact, they weren't meant to be a comparison to other shortstops at all. They were really put up there to place the entirety of Yount's career numbers into context.

When looking at Yount's career numbers, people often tried to dismiss him by saying he only hit 250 home runs, or only hit .285. They don't take into consideration that Yount only played 64 games in the minor leagues, that he was picked out of high school, sent to the minors for a few months, then inserted into a Major League lineup at 18. He learned how to hit in the Majors. He was never afforded the time most baseball players get to perfect their craft. His career batting average suffers because while most Major League players don't come up to the big leagues now until they're 24 or 25, Yount was a teenager when he got the job. If you look at what Yount did from age 24 on, he was a career .293 hitter. So, as I so often try to do in these types of discussions, I am trying to place Yount's career as a whole into a proper context. What I was attempting to do, Raymond, was simply show that his career metrics, taken together, were more impressive than any of them were alone.

250 home runs alone isn't impressive.
250 home runs and 250 stolen bases is a little more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, and 2,500 hits is more impressive,
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 hits, and a 75.00 career WAR is even more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 career hits, a 75.00 career WAR, and 500 doubles...is even more impressive.

See what I'm trying to get at? There were a lot of players that hit more home runs than Yount. There were also a lot of players that stole more bases than Yount. But how many did all the things that Yount did? He did a lot of things very well. And that, I think more than anything, is the greatest compliment that could be paid to Yount. He could do so many things well. He had really good power, had really good speed. He was a tremendous fielder, he was a great pure hitter. He was a clutch hitter. And he was a leader.

Robin Yount's greatness cannot simply be measured in a few stats. You really had to see him play to truly appreciate just how gifted he was. People often said that Joe DiMaggio made everything look so easy. Well, that's Yount. When you looked at him in the field, he was like Tulowitzki is now. So graceful. The way he broke to the ball. The way he stabbed the ball on a short bounce, the way he set himself while momentum was carrying his body towards third base, and let loose a perfect strike to first base. Everything the guy did was like watching poetry. He did the things that just don't show up in the box score. While baseball, more than any sport, lends itself to statistical analysis, numbers cannot capture the "wow" factor that some players had. One might look at Mickey Mantle's career stats, see his 536 home runs, and think "ok, he was 15th or 16th all-time in home runs." While that is an accurate statement, in a way, it does a disservice to Mantle. A home run that just squeaks over the wall in right field, where the fence is 318 feet, counts the same as a home run that hits the facade of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium. But are they the same hit? Absolutely not. Anybody that was at a Yankees game in the 50s and early 60s will tell you that Mantle could have hit a ball to heaven so God could see the stitches. And while Yankee fans might still worship Mantle in a way, and non Yankee fans, or baseball fans that didn't see him play might roll there eyes, there's a reason he's so revered today, and it's not because he looked like somebody out of central casting in Hollywood. When Mantle hit a home run, he put the fear of God in opposing pitchers.

Yet that doesn't show up in the box score.

Yount was like that in a different way. When he was on, the Brewers were going to win. He was going to do whatever it took to beat you. He might hit only one home run in a game. Then he'll make a diving catch for the third out, robbing two runs from the other team. Then he'll make a perfect relay throw on a ball hit deep to left center, and keep a guy at third from scoring. Yount was magical to watch. He really was. And because he played in Milwaukee, like Clemente before him in Pittsburgh, and even like Aaron when he was in Milwaukee, fewer people saw, or appreciated just how great he was.

IMO, Jeter is no where near the top 5...or 20.
He was just placed in the right situation/line-up...for,
well over 10 years.


- M.

That's all good Bill. I draw issue with any prestatement about Yount starting young and not spending much time in minors. So what! It's irrelevant to the player or his career. Cough cough Kaline Winfield.

Yount was a great SS and player, the fact he started young shouldn't be used to strengthen an argument for him. I actually think it can be used against him because without those early years he may not have reached 3000 hits. A number late starters like E. Martinez and Ichiro fall short of.

For the record, I think Yount belongs in the top 10.

Why discount just his batting average from his early years? Without his seasons prior to age 24 he wouldn't have reached any of the benchmarks you listed: 250 HRs, 250 SBs, 2,500 hits or 75 WAR. In either case I don't think anyone here is dismissing him as a great player. If anything, fair or not, he falls on some people's list of top shortstops because he played almost half his career in center field.

I think Kurkjian is the best SS!

No way is Jeter the second best shortstop. Not even close. He's played a lot of games at shortstop. That's why he appears so high on your list. While there is something to be said for playing the position for so long, he's never been the most dynamic player at his position.

Regarding the steals comment, yes, Aaron makes that list if the benchmark is set to 250. If you lower the standards on any list, more players will always be included. That's what happens. I could have raised the list to 300 HR and SB, and Yount wouldn't have been included. But 250 is not some arbitrary number.

And as far as the other comment is concerned, you are entitled to your opinion. I say when his numbers put him in the discussion, yes, he belongs. He wasn't on the level of Mays or Aaron when it comes to power, or Musial or Cobb when it comes to pure hitting. But he's in the discussion because he did so many things well while playing two premium positions.

That's fair, too. I realize that his career numbers aren't as good if he doesn't play those earlier years. I'm just merely pointing out that he was a much better hitter once he reached the age that most baseball players hit the Majors. He learned on the fly. So did Kaline

Bill- you are a true fan, no doubt about it.

I just took a look at Yount's BBR player page with the goal of reminding all of the split in games played at each position (1479 @ short & 1218 @ OF), but I came away having been reminded that he won MVPs at both positions, and, while he only won gold gloves at SS, I remember him as a very, very good centerfielder, another premium defensive position. His stat lines remained solid throughout his career. All that does add up to him being a Great player.

When I attended the 1999 HOF Induction Ceremonies, he appeared to be a footnote - everyone else seem to have bigger fan support, even Cepeda.

Thanks, Raymond. I think Yount's hallmark was probably his consistency. He had the one transcendent season in 1982, and a bunch of great years: 1980, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1988 and 1989. The thing that hurt him was that shoulder injury in 1985. It completely changed Robin Yount as a hitter. He wasn't able to turn on inside pitches with power the way he used to. He was able to adjust his approach at the plate, and started hitting with power to the opposite field.

It's odd that you didn't feel more of a Brewer fan presence when Yount was inducted. I know a few Brewer fans that went to the ceremony, and they felt the Cheesehead turnout was quite good. That was a great class, though, wasn't it? Ryan, Brett, Yount and Cepeda. One of my favorites, in fact.

Yount was a really good defensive center fielder, underrated, even. I think that when it came to people appreciating Yount nationally, he didn't get the credit he deserved. I think that's part of the reason why I'm such huge fans of Yount and Clemente both. They both played in smaller markets, and their talents were underappreciated when they played. Remember, Yount was only an All Star 3 times, and never as an outfielder. He wasn't even an All Star the year he won his second MVP, which is really odd.

Yount made a lot of great plays with his glove in center. Here's one of my favorites. This is Robin Yount laying out to make the final out of Juan Nieves' no hitter.

Yount goes horizontal to preserve Nieves no no.

The comment has been made that Yount wasn't on the level of a Cobb, or a Musial. That's fine by me. There have been very few players that have ever played the game at that level. I think Yount would have come a lot closer if he hadn't messed up his shoulder in his prime. He was 29 when that injury happened, and it basically closed off a good third of the field to him. He could hit the occasional single, but he couldn't pull the ball to left field with power anymore, and that sapped some of his extra base hit ability. That he was able to adjust his game, become a really good player again, and win an MVP in the process says a lot about how great he was.

Considering it the crux of the debate I thought it would be appropriate to mention Jeter passed Wagner in hits last night.

Nate-

Just to be clear, Kurkjian is a Hobbitt, not a shortstop. :D

Just being put in the position does not mean the production magically happens.
Jeter is an all time great and would be whether or not he played in NY or in Florida. Obviously the fact he plays in New York makes his profile larger with more people are aware of his exploits.

Yes SS is a premium defensive position. But would you rather have a player who is decent with the glove and great with the bat or great with the glove and below average with the stick? I'm taking the stick. That's why Schmidt is hands down better than Robinson
Ozzie was amazing defensively. Terrible with the bat. If pick Jeter 6 days a week and twice on Sunday.
My list for what it's worth:
1-Wagner
2-Jeter
3-Banks
4-Ripken
5-Vaughn

Ozzie had almost 2500 hits and 600 steals. A better hitter than he sometimes gets credit for, although obviously not in Jeter's class.

And I don't buy the argument that Jeter just happened to be in the right place at the right time. That could be said of almost anyone.

Always found Ripkens streak overated. No big deal to take a day off and have another pro cover for you.

Since you are in NY, do you feel the same about Ruth and Gehrig? Mantle, Berra? Dimaggio? Whitey Ford never would have won the games he did on a different team. Bench and the Big Red Machine? Reggie Jackson, Clemente, Schmidt? I could go on. Your lineup is what it is. Just like the ballpark the player plays in. They play where they play. I would like to know your top 20 shortstops that are better that Jeter. Start naming Marckus......

Yes, Jeter was in the right place at the right time. There was no Ozzie Smith, Robin Yount, or Cal Ripken in front of him. In '95, the year before Jeter became a full-time player, the Yankees marched a 33 year old Tony Fernandez out to shortstop. Fernandez, who was an outstanding shortstop in his prime, was no longer that player. In the only season he spent with the Yankees, he hit .245 with a .688 OPS in 108 games.

But, once Jeter got the starting nod, he was good enough to hang on to the position for two decades. And this is on a team where the owner will drop $100 million on a player the way I drop my socks in the laundry. Jeter had to be doing something right to continue getting the starting nod every spring.

I'm not a huge Jeter fan. I respect how he's played the game, though, and when a player has earned the praise they are being given, I will stand up and point that out. And there's no doubt in my mind that Jeter deserves the praise he;s been given.

A solid team might help some of the counting stats a bit (RBI, runs scored, etc.) but Jeter managed a .311 career batting average over 20 years! I'm sorry, but having Jason Giambi on your team doesn't make that happen.

Jeter is a top 5 modern player and top 2 shortstop IMO.

Silence Marckus? That's what we all thought.....troll.

A .311 career average is quite good, nobody will deny that. But a top 5 player of the modern era? No way. He's not even close. And the second best shortstop of all-time? No.

The modern era includes Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Bonds. That's 5 players off the top of my head that blow Jeter out of the water.

Since 1950, there have been 716 players to rack up 4,000 or more at bats. Jeter is 159th in OPS on that list, and Jeter's offense is far better than his defense.

What makes Derek Jeter one of the 5 best players of the modern era in your mind? How could you possibly arrive at that statement? He's never won an MVP, and he's only placed in the top 5 of the MVP 3 times in 20 seasons. He's never won a batting title. Never led the league in doubles, home runs, triples, stolen bases, OBP, SLG, or OPS. Not even once. He's led his league in hits twice, and runs once. In twenty seasons. And those two seasons he led the league in hits? One season he really did so legitimately, as he hit .349. But in 2012 he had 216 hits...in 683 at bats! He hit .316. Very good, but not great.

Derek Jeter played the majority of his career in an era of offense, and there was nothing truly special about his offensive game. That Jeter was able to hold on to the job in New York for twenty seasons says something. But Jeter has never been the best hitter in baseball. He's never been the best hitter in his league. He's never been the best fielder.

What elevates Derek Jeter to be one of the top 5 players in the modern era when players like Miguel Cabrera, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle and Carl Yastrzemski have all won the Triple Crown in the American League, and Jeter couldn't lead his league in even a single major offensive category in twenty seasons.

I'm sorry. I know you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't know how even the biggest Derek Jeter fan could say "Derek Jeter is one of the five greatest baseball players of the modern baseball era" with a straight face.