Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..
 

I've been researching this and determined PSA is covering up they've been compromised..
The fonts vary when the .5 grades started..Some barcodes are right on the border..The spacing is not consistant on every card..I have a 52 set (almost) and the flips vary..
Here's a Mantle from the CAL Craiglist scam..Unless you held this card in your hand, you couldn't tell..It's a type A with the missing border pixal, or very close..
The background is a bit light but hard from a scan or picture to tell..

LMK what you think..Attachment 145926

I think you need to read the rules about having your name in your posts (taken care of now) and learn where to post your questions. We have a post WWII side of the board for post war cards. That is where cards that are post WWII should generally go. If you need help please PM me and I will help. As for this holder.....I know some have been compromised which is a reason PSA changed them not long ago. I can't tell about that one you have shown.

That card is obviously compromised to me.. I don't know if that relates to this discussion though.

The fonts and positioning of the text are completely wrong on that label. Not at all convincing to me, even when the portions of the cracked PSA holder are obscured with a same-color background or cropped altogether.

Edited to add: the card itself also looks fake.

How? Someone cracked open a PSA holder and inserted a fake flip and fake card. Where's the cover-up? If anything, PSA has been very proactive in designing a new, more secure holder that effectively puts the Craigslist scammers and their ilk out of business.

And that is a great thing....Putting scammers out of business is the next best thing to putting them in jail.

The real villains here are the scammers making the fakes; the thread's title seems to vilify and besmirch the TPG. Of course TPG's can be proactive in terms of educating their customers as to what to look for, and where to buy, and working with authorities-- and PSA does some of that right on its website...

PSA on fake slabs

At least to me, the stance taken on that link doesn't seem like a coverup.

I've also spoken with PSA and SGC reps about fake or breached holders in the past, and both companies were friendly and educational; so they are forthcoming when a customer calls or visits and asks about the issue.

But it is also incumbent upon the collector to be selective in terms of where and from whom he buys. For example, if you go to a Rolex store, odds are pretty good you're getting a real Rolex. If you buy from an REA, a Goodwin, a Tony Arnold, a 707, a trusted collector, and too many others to mention, one is much more likely to be pleased with their purchase than if they bought from a dude selling used mattresses on Craig's List or eBay.

PSA might consider expanding the webpage Matt posted to include information about fake flips, examples of what to look for in terms of fonts and spacing, etc. When this first became an issue it was relatively easy to spot fakes by their crappy looking fonts but it seems the scammers are getting better. And with the many generations of PSA flips, with varying fonts and alignments, the fakes are not always immediately obvious, to me anyhow.

Peter that is a great idea; would be very good on their part.

There have been 7 font, space, barcode changes over the years. They even now don't all line up..
I agree the card is too light overall..I think too thin also..The front not as defined..Still without the obvious, white bat ect..

I agree with you Peter..I called SCG about a Ruth I had..He said the reason they didn't put cert numbers out there was fraud. You won't see this with Beckett holder, too strong...I want my 52 high commons raw. So, I broke a PSA Bob Chipman out. it was easy..The case still looks perfect..

I'm seriously considering going completely raw on my 52 highs..So I may be selling a few PSA 3's 4's and 5's..Ones I don't want to crack out and put in an album..
The only other way is to cross everyhthing to Beckett..I'm done with PSA..

The flip on this card matches zero of the previous or current PSA labels. The published PSA guidelines would be a good place to start when being offered this type of bogus card. Even for those collectors who cannot discriminate between a real and fake PSA flip, there are too many other problems with cards like this one to even consider a purchase.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e237/xxogxx/014.jpg
The guy behind all of these fake Mantles has evolved his game.

He can make the slabs and the flips identical to PSA's right before they released this most recent version. All serial numbers and barcodes will match as well. He will take clean looking cards and TRIM them to look sharp. To protect yourself from this scam, measure your cards and see if you can find the same serial number sold in the past on VCP to compare images.

This guy is tucked away down in Mexico, doesn't come to the states, and uses unsuspecting pawns to deal his creations. I obtained a lot of information about him through e-mail and phone calls in the past but he cut me off when I shared some of the info to protect people from being scammed.

Look at all of the following pictures. Every single one of these is a fake slab and flip with a trimmed card inside. The source of these is same source of the PSA 9 55 Clemente that was headlining the most recent Clean Sweep auction.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img003.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img006.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img785.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img824.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img783.jpg

Be careful who you buy from and do your homework.

Looks like all of those PSA holders have been cracked/opened on at least one side.

These are reproductions, not original holders. There would be much more frosting if they were opened.

No. They're not. Those are real PSA holders that have been opened and resealed.

All those fake Mantles have the "crisp" focused Yankee logo. And preternaturally white borders. As was just said, gotta be VERY careful and picky with where we buy.

WOW! If those are all fakes, then I guess I am fooled.....some good looking cards, and I dont see the frosting at all...

Are there examples of compromised Beckett slabs? I know their thick holders aren't as elegant as PSA/SGC, but they seem to excel at card protection and tamper resistance.

Why are you so adamant about this?

Matty, regarding the Mantles, those are all reprints. He printed up a bunch of them the same way he printed up 1000 Jordans. The font on the Jordans are a little off as well as the borders being too smooth, see below.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...gxx/img835.jpg

There are specific security details present on an authentic PSA holder that a scammer would not likely spend the money to duplicate. I've read your previous threads both here and on CU and you're guessing that he's making his own holders or having them manufactured according to spec. He's not. Those are legitimate PSA holders. The bottom line is this: If someone offers you a PSA 10 1986-87 Fleer Jordan for 60% of retail, there's a 99% chance it's not real.

Look at the right edge of the 1986 Topps Jerry Rice. That's the most obvious one.

I'm not guessing. I've spent countless hours on the phone with this guy. He enjoyed bragging about all of the money he has made scamming people. He gave me all the info he could minus his name. Leon can verify this. It's not very hard to replicate a simple piece of plastic. This is just one of the many scams this guy has run. All are equally brilliant and evil. If you think these are all original slabs, do you know how to break one open and reseal it without frosting?

What would you do if you were offered the following cards at market value then?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...40401-0016.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...40401-0008.jpg

how do you remove frosting from the head lights on your car?

some slabs even open without any frosting occurring if not sealed properly.

exhibit number 1

kevin

Exhibit number 1 would be admissible if scanned with the lid up and showing the entire slab. Dismissed.

I don't think we are on the same page here. Tell me what you think this might cost. Also, it's two distinct pieces not one. The front and back are not identical.

A $300 pair of Beats by Dre headphones can be easily replicated in China for pennies on the dollar. A guy who has scammed the hobby for easily a few million dollars could find a way to replicate two distinct pieces of plastic in Mexico.

Why would I purchase a 1986 Topps Steve Young or an o/c "PSA 9" 1960 Topps Yastrzemski at market value?

Why don't you post a few known fakes intermixed with legit cards/holder and see how well people do picking them out. I for one am pretty sure these holders would dupe me, especially when the cards inside are legit but well trimmed (not that I ever go for PSA10s, but if he can do 10s, he can do any card or grade he wants).

So the guy from Mexico is having his Chinese contact fabricate identical PSA holders for pennies on the dollar? Your proof?

Fair enough. For argument's sake, say you are in the market for an 86 Topps Steve Young.

This is a good idea. I'll try to find some more scans in my old e-mails.

Mexican scammer guy, if you read this in the meantime, e-mail me 20 scans of your fabrications.

The Young looks very trimmed and narrow. The Yaz is not square so I'd pass on that one for fear of trimming there, too, though it's not as obvious. At least this scammer either trims or prints fakes that have an "off" look to them. His slabs and flips are scary good at first blush.

Let's be reasonable here. Some guy in Mexico is not going to spend the money necessary to make identical PSA holders and then put 1986 Topps Steve Young cards inside.

You really have no idea what it costs a company like Beckett, PSA, or SGC to have its holders fabricated, do you?

I humbly submit that whether the slabs are real or fake is kind of moot in the face of how good they look at first glance.

An 86 Topps Steve Young 10 is a POP 4 and the Jerry Rice in 10 is a POP 49. It's a substantial card and would be well worth the scam.

Maybe you know the answer and can provide that to us. but let's assume that the cost of a holder is equal to the price of having a card reholdered. Hell, let's assume that it costs $50 to have a holder made. It would still be worth it for "some guy in mexico" to spend the money necessary when he is selling his cards for 5, 10, 20+ thousand. I'm bewildered why you feel so strongly about the holders being original. I'm merely sharing information that I have. These fakes are out there, they are good, and whether or not they are original, they have very little to NO frosting at all.

You're going to have both halves of a PSA holder fabricated for $50 per unit? Try a starting cost of $50,000 just to have the molds created and a basic prototype made. If you want it exact, it would be more. Much more. And none of this takes into account what an initial minimum order might cost.

If that's the cost in America, I'm sure it's a fraction of that in Mexico and China. Even at 50k he could afford it, he's made that in a days worth of scamming.
I'll end this here, there's really no point in arguing where these slabs came from. The fakes are good and that's that.

Thanks for posting this Evan, I hope you haven't been dissuaded from sharing any more info you may have. The above is the key point to me. I can't tell the difference between these slabs.

It's been pointed out in this thread that there are obvious signs these flips have been compromised, if so I'd love to know what they are.

No. The $50,000 is to have it done in China, per your example/claim. Further refinements of the prototype, manufacturing, plus the initial order could easily run $250k if you wanted an exact holder. And even then, it might not be the same.

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.

What may seem like a very basic approach is the importance of knowing the seller. It is not uncommon for collectibles to be valued at five, six or even seven-figure levels in some cases. If you were buying a watch for $5,000, would you purchase it from a company or someone you didn't recognize or know? If not, the first prudent step would be asking for good references. The same approach should be used in the collectibles market. It is imperative that you find a reputable dealer or auction house to buy from. Remember, it is your money.

If you are directly solicited by a person or company with whom you have no prior dealings or relationship, you should approach the offer with caution, particularly if such an offer is coupled with a deal that seems too good to be true. These are warning signs. Ironically, the lure of a quick profit often overrides one's common sense. Don't let this happen to you.

ignorance is bliss. good luck.

kevin

Mike- I assume you have spoken to the Secret Service and the Dept of Homeland Security about this scammer allegedly in Mexico? I am sure you know there has been an investigation going on for years now. Whether he is cracking and resealing slabs or having them fabricated, I am not sure, but he is good. Hopefully the new holders from PSA and SGC will prevent him from doing his trade.

its about 50k or a 100k to have them tooled and get a sample run.

one or two 50k cards pays for that cost.

kevin

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

I'll check when I get home, but I think many if not a majority of my PSA holders show signs of frosting.. some even have little micro-cracks. I think the many of these are legit beyond a doubt, but presumably have picked up these traits due to wear and tear.

I've never cracked a PSA holder, so don't know if the frosting on a compromised holder is so much different than the frosting I've seen on mine. Would love to see all these holders side by side and in hand at some point (real, real with frosting, poorly cracked lots of frosting, well cracked minimal frosting, fake, etc).

Agree. I am not seeing any major red flags on the slabs. Lots of ones i knqw are legit because i submitted myself have little stuff on the edges or spots of frosting. Mike may have a trained eye the rest of us dont but they sure as heck dont look like obvious reseals to me. Ps where did wiwag get its slabs i forget now.

Also curious, do all parties involved (original owner/seller, buyer, AH) in the Mantle CSA sale (referred to in an earlier post) know about this? And if so, have they confirmed the card to be fake?

If true, this is really bothersome, and more or less invalidates PSA's bullet about buying from known/reputable sellers. The last thing I want to worry about when bidding a reputable AH is whether the card and holder are compromised and/or fake. If this scam is legit, and these are good enough to get past trained eyes and several days at public auction, maybe it's time to start worrying?

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...zLM59m0_12.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Hqsnrg0_12.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...mu1WQ-1_12.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...DN2Sg60_57.jpg

Evan,

You bring up an important point here that should not be understated. Whenever you are spending money on graded sports cards--especially if that sum is an excess of $1000--it pays to know who the seller is. If you don't know, ask for some references or explore that seller's online sales history. There is a huge difference between purchasing graded cards from a knowledgeable dealer who has been in business for 25 or more years and a upstart seller on eBay whose source for inventory is craigslist. Know your source. And know that if you try to buy 1986 Fleer Michael Jordans or 1952 Topps Mickey Mantles for a mere fraction of their value, that there's a very good chance they're not legitimate, the holder and flip notwithstanding.

Definitely concerning to see the crook is perfecting his art.

Look at this example of the fake Bird/Johnson rookie

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps0e2f6789.jpg

Here is the scan of the legitimate example. Notice the perforation alignment between the two cards:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...psbd364988.jpg

It looks like the fake example was recently sold via an eBay auction. Here is the scan from the auction. The seller either purposely or accidentally didn't include the full holder in the scan. Notice how the perforation alignment matches the fake:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps784b3beb.jpg

Example number 2 - Here is a scan of the fake Gary Carter rookie

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...psa1822a42.jpg

Here is a scan of the legitimate version, notice the spot or break in the black line under the word Giants:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps8aba9607.jpg

Here is a Probstein auction scan of the legitimate version:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps57f59001.jpg

Here is another Probstein auction scan of the fake version:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...psa46ab2ac.jpg

Regardless of whether the crook is fabricating his own cases or reusing PSA cases, the vast majority of collectors are unable to spot these. Buying from reputable dealers and avoiding cards at 60% value is good advice, but definitely not error-proof, as these cards are making their way into legitimate venues.

bbcemporium,

Thank you for posting the comparisons. It seems obvious to me that the small security tabs or "nubs" are popped/cloudy on the holders that have been cracked and clear on the holders that are legitimately sealed by PSA. I hope others can see this.

Yes, you can see this clearly on the nubs directly under the flip.

Just wanted to add, as someone above mentioned, that one or two patches of frosting and even stress cracks at slab corners and by the circular posts of a slab are all pretty common right off the press at PSA. But those circular posts should be clear, not cloudy, as noted above. I've been handed re-holdered cards in their customer lobby that exhibit frosting, stress cracks, and even a rough nub on the side that could be misconstrued as an area where someone tried to force open the holder (this latter attribute is not the case with the new holder). Just things for people to keep in mind so as not to wind up passing on a good card; their cust service people said it's when frosting runs the length of one side that it's a no-no, as opposed to a random inch-long area in one isolated place.

Don't know if the slab has been compromised but that is a awesome 1952 Bowman Bill Werle missing the W error. I have one only not that nice.

those are some scary modern fakes!

On the carter yes not so much on others like schmidt 10.

Thanks Ben. Evan was being a wiseguy in his post. I submitted the Werle myself. It's legitimate.

Look at the top of the holder. I wonder if the Schmidt isn't a legitimate 8 with a different (PSA 10) flip slid in along the top edge.

Who says they are fakes? They could very well be legitimate cards that are either 8s or trimmed.

For reference, here are Schmidt and Robinson comparisons.

Fake:
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps35536820.jpg

Authentic (I think):
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...psf1f3d837.jpg

Fake:
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps4466ee36.jpg

Authentic (I think):
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps86ab8b7b.jpg

why is this?

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

I'm pretty sure he also "makes" t206 Cobbs and 33 Goudey Ruths and Gehrigs.

The scammer, in my many conversations with him, told me he didn't do pre-war as the other high end cards that are post war are much easier to pass off.

He might make T206 Cobbs or Ruth Goudeys but that isn't the majority of what he does. Also, it seems his favorite, or one of his favorite playgrounds, is Craigslist...

I find it a little odd this guy is having multiple conversations with people within the hobby discussing the fraud he is perpetrating. Maybe he just wants to brag about his work.

I've seen it mentioned several times now, but how does buying from a reputable dealer solve the problem? What’s to stop a reputable dealer from unknowingly buying one of these fakes for re-sell thinking it's legit?

Edited to add: Are reputable dealers immune to scams or something?

I'd say for two reasons...

Reputable dealers and PSA Authorized dealers tend to have a better eye at spotting fakes than the average collector. One must be armed with considerable knowledge and experience to spot these fakes and veteran reputable dealers of PSA cards stand to have that knowledge and experience moreso than a random seller on Craigslist or eBay. Is it possible one can slip by the goalie, so to speak, sure, but then...

A reputable dealer stands to care more about his reputation and longterm business than a one-time score; a no-hassle return policy goes a long way when we are talking about these fake slabs.

I don't think anyone is asserting veteran reputable dealers are 100% inoculated against this scam, but in the interest of mitigation before and after a scam they are a prudent choice.

PS: like the sig line, very funny!

Hey, Matt. I can see your point, but I think most collectors (well, at least I do) get a card in the mail, look at it, possibly scan it, and then it goes into their safe or vault (or wherever) and they rarely look at it again. My point is, if it got past the dealer and the purchaser, it probably won't be realized that it's a fake for a long time to come (and it sounds like a lot of these are getting by). If you realized it immediately after purchase, sure they would have to take it back. And if it's an eBay purchase, they wouldn't have a choice - reputable dealer or not. But even any reputable dealer isn't going to guarantee a card past a certain time period, are they?

I agree. I don't know how many people he reached out to but I know Evan and I had a lot of conversations with him. He uses one of those phone jack devices that can't be traced. One time when he called me I tried to conference in the Secret Service covertly and it didn't work. I tried though....Yes, I believe he is somewhat of a braggart.

He uses pawns to sell his stuff and never lets anyone too close. Buying from a very known and trusted source is a good way (not foolproof) to avoid his fraud.

He preys on the greedy and inexperienced. As has been said, when you see a high end card being sold for less than half it's value, be very, very wary.

David,

Good question-- there are a lot of high dollar card sellers who are definitely the stand-up type to honor a return at any point down the line, if it was discovered they missed a fake. Those are the guys I like to deal with. They highly value a loyal customer who pays promptly, who could be worth so much over the years of a relationship; if it became known they passed along a high-dollar fake even a year down the line, they would remember the sale and want to maintain that relationship. I've been told this directly by a few of my favorite sellers.

Personally, because I am rather risk averse on the subject, in addition to buying from known trusted sources, I will always take a high dollar card into PSA for a quick look-- I live close enough to drive the card down and it gives me peace of mind. This way I know for sure upon receipt of the card. I couldn't just put it away without that final check by the TPG itself. Might be overkill but it lets me sleep easy.

Best,

Matt

Have there been any fakes detected in the new PSA holders?

This is just one of the many reasons
 

to justify Levi asking more than the average dealer. He is not going anywhere and he and Jimmy will know the card is fake and it would never get offered for sale. There are others that fall into this category as well.

yes with Levi you know you are getting the real thing.

...

This makes sense, aging a forgery of a pre-war card would take some extra work that he would not need to do in the post war card world. Guys, thanks so much for sharing this information, it's scary stuff & the knowledge shared helps a lot.

Just curious do the bar codes scan on the fake flips? Nobody mentioned this.

goldbullion2012@gmail.com

Ha I remember that braggert guy...I remember people getting locked up because of him. He finds people on ebay and CL to list items for him. Preys on the greedy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I have seen a 33 Gehrig in 8 that is fake also had other cards in the purchase 69 Reggie 9 and a few others... In fact I had purchased it and needed to get a refund. Had to get the FBI involved.

The flips under a LOUPE look different. They have laser dots that normal flips don;'t have. This was probably 10 or 11 months ago. Not sure what they have done now.

...