Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST
 

What do ya'll think about cut outs from magazines being sold on our BST? Also, what about the fringe grading companies that actually grade them? Any thoughts? I see some being sold and have mixed feelings. My initial thoughts are if they are advertised honestly, as cut outs from magazines, it's ok. But other opinions will be appreciated. And I am not accusing anyone of anything :)......Thanks in advance for the feedback....

Others may disagree, but I would vote not to allow this junk to be sold here. Or at the very least, require that it be advertised in the Everything Else section.

I voted "Yes, but with caveat" because I collect wood cuts from 1800' Harpers, Leslie's, etc. and early magazine covers. I would hate to see them excluded.

Let them be sold as long as they are properly described.

Reach and Spaulding cutouts
 

I have sold several Spalding/ reach cutouts on the board... Prior to selling them I have them framed and matted... The items are represented as cutouts, and offer the consumer a cheap and presentable way to get ahold of a period piece of a big name on a shoestring...

I have not had a single complaint to date on an item purchased by a fellow member...

Fwiw-i don't believe that these pieces should be professionally graded by any company..

As long as they are described correctly and placed in the memorabilia section I don't mind.

Frankly, I am against anything that promotes destroying what I consider to be a legitimate collectible such as a Spalding or Reach guide by selling pieces of it. For the same reason, I stopped buying modern cards when companies like Upper Deck, etc. started cutting up game-used jerseys, bats and the like.

+1

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

i voted yes, but with caveat saying what it is and made clearly.
As a buyer/seller of a item: I had bought the Nolan Ryan pre-rookie from GregB Auction. I was unaware at the time what it really was until days after the bid i was told so. Later on, i sold the slab/card, not here, but on Ebay and 'clearly' stated it as such throughout the listing as a magazine cut-out and where it came from. Clearly underlined and enlarged and surround by parenthesis. The TPG PSA that graded the piece made it apart of their registry, so someone probably bought it due to become #1. But only based on speculation. Here is my sale to prove and follow as a example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201012634337...84.m1561.l2649

I voted "no" here for a couple of reasons...

I don't want to see things that I've grown accustomed to seeing cluttering up Ebay, to now be cluttering up our BST. I'd probably throw Reprints into that catagory as well.

Also, I agree with what others have said, I don't like the destruction of original collectibles in order to make new ones. I feel that as long as a market continues to exist for these "second-hand collectibles", other valuable relics will continue to be hacked apart. By allowing them to be sold on BST, we only provide another source for that market to grow - and I'd prefer that it didn't...heh.

You directed this to Tom and I am not Tom, but here is my answer anyways :D

I think this is the gray area for me. If only a couple of pages can be salvaged from these books then I can see why. On the other hand what happens is that people see that those individual pages bring more money when you add all the pages together than the whole book, so it prompts others to start cutting up books to get the most monetary value out of it.

Then the person cutting up a full good book can say that it wasn't a good book and they are just preserving a few pages, but there is no way for the rest of us to know that is true.

It is a tough call and it is for that reason I say they can be sold with the info disclosed, but I don't ever want to buy one.

Thanks for bringing this up, Leon. I'm completely against it for reasons well-documented.

I'm about to sell a run of Reach Guides from the 1880's-1930's and I will not sell any of them to anyone who I know has sold cut-outs in the past. These items are all out of print and can not be replaced.

I can't believe someone sold that without describing what it was. I really cat believe PSA graded it.

I voted yes but with a proper description.However after reading other responses it does seem like a shame to take a perfectly intact issue and cut it up.I have purchased a few Virginia League cutouts that were described as coming from a damaged copy but who knows if it was it not.

The more I think about it I am willing to change my initial vote to no from yes with the correct info.

The poll won't let me change, but I am voicing it here.

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles. I do think these objects should not be graded. If PSA is now grading this stuff, then I am done with PSA.

Provided they are described accurately, I figure people should be allowed to collect what they want. But that's from a guy whose focus is oddball and offbeat cards and related materials including some items cut from publications or other media:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...x%20Snider.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...etin%20Fox.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Ashburn.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...box%20back.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...box%20flap.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...20DiMaggio.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...iana%20Sam.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...e%20ad%204.jpg



I am not sure where a "no cuts" ban would fall on the spectrum of things like the ones depicted above.

I think they can form a nice adjunct to a player or team or other themed collection as long as the buyer knows exactly what is being sold.

no vote
 

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

They wouldn't be on the same spectrum - some of the items you show actually have scissor tracks, but I'm guessing most or all of them were intended to be 'collected' or cut out as items separate from whatever they were published with.

Reach and Spalding team photos, along with the textual information, were meant to support each other as part of a book. Once they are cut out, the book loses most of it's historical and monetary value. I asked Dave if you could get the rest of the book with the cut-outs he sells, and he said "sadly, no", which I don't think can be interpreted any way other than he cuts out the parts he likes, and throws the rest in the trash.

Barry, one way that the BST cut-outs has helped me, is that now I know which books need to have their prices raised to a level that would make cutting them up prohibitive. If I end up sitting on them forever, sobeit.

And that is exactly what is happening, with the perpetrators claiming that they only buy destroyed books. There was a guy on ebay who was making this same claim, but we were able to tie his i.d. back to purchases of good reading copies of Reach and Spalding Guides.

This is really formulaic: is the selling price of the sum total of individual photos that can be cut out of a book greater than what the book costs? If so, people who don't really respect these items as historical pieces are going to buy them and then cut them up and sell the pieces.

To me it's similar to cutting up bats, jerseys or anything else of historical value, in order to cash in on its pieces - it then just becomes a matter of personal aesthetics. I'm sure there are those on this board who thinks a game-used bat card of Babe Ruth is a horror, but that a page out of a Reach Guide is a beautiful collectible. Or who don't care about the bat-piece card but think it's terrible that the bat was destroyed, but who could care less about a book being destroyed. I like bats, you like books - just a matter of taste.

While there is nothing illegal or even unethical in selling these cutouts, I voted "no" simply because I hate the fact that people destroy hundred year old artifacts just to line their pockets. I find that detestable.

I absolutely HATE the way these "cut-outs" are being produced and marketed as standalone collectibles. I'm sick of them coming up in my eBay searches, and I am disgusted by the wanton destruction a few individuals are wrecking on these old guides.

If you could guarantee that every one of these things came from a guide that was already falling apart and incomplete, I might feel differently, but that's not the case. To a man, if you ask the regular sellers of these things why they are carving up 100-year-old books, they will tell you they were already damaged, coming apart, etc. But you can look at their buying history, and clearly see that is not the case. Allowing and encouraging the selling of these individual pages is tantamount to allowing and encouraging the destruction of the guides. If a few sales of pages that legitimately fell out of a deteriorating guide are blocked, that is a small price to pay in my opinion.

Heaven help the Reach and Spalding guides if any of the major TPG's start grading these things. We'll have knuckleheads with exacto knives falling over each other to see who can cut the straightest line, and these guides will go the way of the dodo.

Lance, can I print out your post above, and include it as an insert with each Guide I sell?

That was great - thanks.

vote no
 

I have long been drawn to this hobby because of its uncanny ability to
rejuvenate my memories of baseball at its best---whether it be the perfect crystalline focus of the Big Train or the exquisite languor of the methodical,
mechanical Gehringer. Somehow, this great hobby allows me to retouch the
playing days of my own youth, much like the tea-dunked madeleines of old:
"No sooner had the warm liquid mixed with the crumbs touched my palate
that a shiver ran through me."(RoTPast)
I always choose a shiver over a cringe, viz. the artifacts and hagiographa
over the defaced.

all the best,
barry

While I'm ranting, let me add that I also hate the fact that these silly things are being slabbed. Shame on TPG (I know, they have no shame) for agreeing to slab them. All that does is encourage more people to tear up more books. Everyone knows that when you slab something it sells for far more than when it's raw. We may not like it, and it may not make much sense, but that's the truth about it. TPG's should JUST SAY NO. These are just worthless pages from a book and there is no reason to turn them into instant collectibles.

I don't see the difference between owning an individual guide page and owning a rare signature cut from a larger piece or album page. The history of the item is no more being destroyed as it is being altered for another purpose. Either way, as long as the recipient of the item is pleased with and enjoys it I don't see the issue or how it hurts the hobby.

For example I own this and other pages like it:
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images...eeler-jennings





I picked it up here on the B/S/T a few years ago. It's on a shelf next to my desk. I appreciate the history of this team and wanted something to display that depicted it and that was from the period. I'm also a father in college with a mortgage and wife with a credit card so I'm realistic and sensible with my purchases. Hell, I'll probably take a pay cut when I enter teaching next year. I'll likely never own anything that graces the first 20 pages of an REA catalog, but I still want to collect the game's entire history. It's still a hundred year old artifact, its still historic, and it is still being appreciated. If someone here has a period cabinet or composite that depicts this team to replace mine for what I paid for this tell me where to send the check.

Steve, if you could afford to buy that page from a book, you could afford to buy the entire book. You could then make a hi-res scan of the photo, put it behind glass, and it would be as aesthetically-pleasing (actually, moreso) as the real cut-out page is in a slab. Having the book nearby should satisfy your need to have a piece of history, but if the copy would suffice, you could then sell the book and use the money to help pay your mortgage.

I voted no but it made me think about chopping my Benz .

While this concept is appalling to me...similar to cutting a cobb bat or ruth jersey into a million pieces.. I answered the survey based on the premise that this practice cannot be stopped.


but in retrospect I'd like to change my answer to no so as not to promote the buying or selling of this "Stuff."

I voted yes, as long as they are marketed as so, but the more I think of it I'm not comfortable about it. I think destroying a 100+ year old piece of memorabilia is a shame.

Guess I'm kinda disappointed that there is a market for this stuff among our members.

Sigh

Pete, Bob - If I saw these pages matted and framed, before I ever handled any of these historical books, I would probably consider buying them. I think it's natural, as they display very nicely. But you could also cut up the Book of Kells into individual pages, or even cut the illuminated areas out of some of the text pages, and they would each be incredible display pieces.

scott f
 

very well said.
The Book of Kells was just the right choice for showing the import
of keeping hagiography in its original form. What a beautiful wonder this
seminal Irish masterpiece is.
In its own way, the hobby literature we often refer to has its own
sacrosanct place in the halls of scholarship.

all the best,
barry

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

Barry, sadly, ancient illuminated texts ARE being treated the same way as the Reach and Spalding Guides. You can find illuminated pages cut from prayer books, etc., in many auctions these days. The rationale is that a single page is affordable, whereas an entire book would not be. Fortunately that's not the case with Reach and Spalding Guides.

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

I voted to allow it as long as they're described correctly.

I also dislike cutting up books or magazines for the plates or other images, but I've handled enough old paper to know there's a lot of it that's already been removed.

I've bought lots of old magazines, mainly two larger batches.

One was a smallish batch of magazines from about 1915-20, Most were national geographics. All of them were worn and missing the covers. They also had a lot of car ads and others which were selling well at the time. The old national geographics in nice condition sell for anywhere from 2-10 dollars now, but at the time they were maybe .50 to a dollar.

The other batch was huge, and came from a person who published a nostalgia magazine. Probably thousands of them ranging from the 1860's to 1940's. Some in excellent condition, some really not. A lot of them had had articles cut out to be used in the magazine or in a book about old fashioned Christmas he put out. There were also boxes full of the cutouts. Unfortunately for me they were almost all womens titles or general interest with nearly no sports at all unless it was by accident. Some of them are valuable, and even some cheap ones aren't common. But titles like "needlework" are under $10 in good condition, less in lots of a few magazines. The ones with covers and articles missing aren't worth much at all. But the back covers are all cream of wheat ads that sell, and one issue has an early ad directed at women for the 1920 presidential election. That one was like finding money in the trash.

Even some good titles like Godeys commonly have the color fashion plate removed. Sometimes for use in something more interesting. One thing I got my wife for Christmas was a Godeys print that had had needlework done over the images so it was a little 3-d ish, done probably in the late 1800's and framed at the time.

Steve B

Hi-
I do like how the individual pages display from a guide, but I have never bought one nor will I sell one. I am especially against grading them.
However, I struggle with the display factor regarding old magazines that have nothing relevant to baseball on the cover, but have fascinating pictures inside. I have a flea market dealer who regularly provides me with a pile of old magazines for 1-3.00 each, and each one has a nice baseball article and photos. All are pre 1940, and most that I buy are pre 1920. I have never removed the baseball content, and do not plan to, but storing/displaying the entire publications is much more difficult than if I had pages.
Sometimes, I get completely separated baseball ads and other pages from this dealer. I know he does not separate them, and I know some folks will prefer them that way, and sometimes, I do too. I buy them this way. I feel there is a difference buying like this than the cutouts that started this thread.
Collectors have been cutting up old books at least since the late 1800s. There will always be collectors who prefer the whole, and others who want a piece, whether for display or affordability.
Please note that in regards to the specific pages from old guides selling for any price beyond 5-10.00 is ridiculous in my opinion, unless the item is well matted and framed (like some that were on the BST a few weeks ago).

Alan Elefson

Apparently there's a market for them and the description looks honest.. Let him sell.

Albert

Me too, but the genie is out of the bottle...I'm not so sure the market is our BST with the attitude towards the practice that most here have, but if we are going to allow it don't clog up the card forums with it, keep it in the Memorabilia BST.

Leon,

Thanks for bringing this topic up. A couple of years ago I inherited a good number of early Spalding, Reach and other guides in various conditions. I have had the pleasure of reading a few of them. Lately, I have been considering selling them, but this discussion has made me think twice. I would hate if someone bought them and in turn rather them enjoying them, cut them up and sold them piecemeal.

I have no problem in folks buying and turning around and selling items, but to destroy something even if it was in poor to fair condition like this one shown really gives me heartburn.

Well, for now I am going to keep them, continue to read and enjoy them. Maybe sometime in the future I will consider selling them, but this discussion will remain in the back of my mind.

Marty

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/...ps879cc113.jpg

Love that Lajoie book!

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

Thanks Steve - that's good to know. As Dan said, the genie is out of the bottle. I am very glad, though, that Leon got this discussion going - at the risk of upsetting a few people, we've at least gotten all of the relevant points on the table.

I agree with those who posit that anything encouraging people to carve up 100 year old books should be frowned upon. I voted, "no."

Best regards,

Eric

I vote that someone can do what ever they want with what they own as long as it is described properly when they sell it.

This thread is ridiculous at this point and some are losing focus of the original question as it was asked. It wasn’t “Do you think cutting up 100 year old pieces of memorabilia is a bad practice or not?” The question was “Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?”

I voted yes, with caveat (as long as they’re describing them accurately). People should leave their personal opinions out of it. I don’t like trimmed cards, but I would never interfere with someone’s right to sell them (as long as they’re describing them accurately) just because of my personal opinion.

The question was not, "Do they have a RIGHT to sell them?" It was "Should they be allowed to be sold on the BST" of Net54, a site that generally fosters the preservation of baseball antiquities. I voted "no" because I don't think that anything that encourages the destruction of vintage publications has any place in a forum that otherwise encourages their preservation. There are plenty of other venues where they can exercise their right to destroy whole collectibles and sell them off piecemeal.

The ultimate decision of whether they have the right to sell them HERE falls to Leon, and I appreciate him soliciting the opinions of the board members before making that decision.

It's more ridiculous when someone tells us how we should discuss things in a discussion forum. Next time you post and it's not a direct, clear and concise response to the exact question the OP posted, I'll be sure to let you know that you are ridiculous.

What's even more ridiculous is when one doesn't know the difference between a discussion and a poll.

In other words, vote and move on. No need to impose your views on everybody else (especially 11 times in the same thread).

Cutting up magazines gets me amped!!! :D

I can see why people wouldn't like others cutting up old magazines and would rather see them preserved, but it's okay if they want to do so. Just like it's okay if someone chooses to trim a baseball card...it's theirs to do so! Do I like it, absolutely not, but that's not my decision.

I do believe they should be allowed to sell it here if they wish...there is obviously a market for them and they look great. I love the looks of these magazines and don't believe I would ever cut them out unless the mag was falling apart. I don't blame anyone if they decide to frame a page or cut anything out in it because unless you reprint the page, how else are you going to display some of these wonderful pics? I think there are much bigger issues in this hobby than worrying about some magazines getting cut up.

How about cutting up T202's and selling them as 3 pieces ?

David, I enjoy your discussions, but you are not moderator material.

A Walter Johnson did this past week. Sorry you missed it :(

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=182501

I believe this is both a discussion AND a poll (or a discussion WITH a poll, if you prefer). Yes, there is a poll at the top of the page, but Leon also asked for "Any thoughts?" in the initial post. I believe all of the subsequent posts qualify as thoughts, whether they agree with my own thoughts on the subject or not.

I voted no, and agree with the comments of those who find it distressing that books and periodicals are hacked so that pics may be harvested. I would very much prefer that such monstrosities be kept off the B/S/T and that those who wish to collect them be required to look elsewhere.

Actually, I've had a few of them over the years. Ditto a 4-on-1 exhibit cut. If I can get a major HOFer end piece from a T202 for a few bucks I'd pick it up just for the novelty of it.

The items we are discussing are not singular works of art; despite their often aesthetically pleasing graphics, they are essentially mass-produced low cost items. Treating a Reach guide that can be had for well under fifty bucks with the same reverence as a 1,300 year old hand-illuminated manuscript is a false equivalence. There is a hierarchy of preservation-worthiness to everything in the art and collectibles sphere. An old magazine falls pretty low down that spectrum.

I find the idea that refusing to allow these items somehow strikes a blow for preservation of baseball history to be rather silly. Even assuming for the sake of discussion that a beater Reach guide is worth preserving, whether or not cuts from them are sold here will not 'save' one item from the cutting shears. As is the case with many other things [like paper conservation techniques], I think our hobby is once again debating whether to try to close the barn door as the horse runs down the road. People have been cutting up books and magazines for a very long time; illustration sales are a normal and accepted part of every vintage paper fair I've ever attended. Designers and decorators have been framing and using them for years. Cut materials are found throughout the National as well; just take a look around at the Harper's woodcuts.

I am not comfortable banning items solely based on origin as long as they were accurately described. It is too difficult to do without making judgment calls that simply are not appropriate for an ostensibly free market. Is it OK to sell a Harper's woodcut? How about a page from a Police Gazette? If so, why is that "better" than an illustration from a Reach guide? All were removed from publications they were intended to be part of. I really don't want N54 to make that judgment call for me. I am also confident that if the market is allowed to work, it will work. If you believe that the customers will dictate whether an item is worth buying, then let the items be sold with proper disclosures. If no one buys the items here, the sellers will go away.

Finally, I am not a fan of dictating to other collectors what they can collect. Everyone has their own style and desire and budget for collecting. I am not comfortable telling those collectors who value a cut item for whatever reason that they are not welcome here, that their collection sucks, etc. I collect plates removed from old books. It is often the only way to get a career-contemporary [or close to it] item depicting an athlete. I'd hate to think that someone would tell me 'sorry, you can't buy or sell a Tom Molineaux print for your HOF collection because it was once in a book'.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Molineaux.JPG

I would guess in the past kids would cut up T202's or exhibit 4 in 1's for whatever reasons...but it would be counterintuitive from a value standpoint to do so today.

I used to be very turned off by T202 end panels from a collecting standpoint...but these days I see it is a more reasonable way to collect some really beautiful vintage cards.

Discussion allows people to know why the believe the things they do to support their answers. Including myself there are at least two people that changed their opinion because of this discussion:

Discussion within a poll is expected and promoted as pointed out:

I have probably about 10-15 of these Spalding/Reach guide cutouts..all of the Lincoln team or the Nebraska Indians team. It was a cheap way (99 cents + shipping) to get team portraits of the teams I collect without having to buy each Spalding/Reach guide. I hope they came from damaged books, but I doubt it.

I bought this one as a companion piece for the postcard and cabinet photos I have because it named the players.

After reading the discussion and some thinking, my "No" vote really was an easy one to make. And it doesn't even conflict with my beliefs, that...

I abhor cutting up or otherwise destroying almost anything, whether it is 2 years old or 200 years old. Yet...

I totally believe that if you own something you can do with it what you please. And...

What is permissible to cut up and what is not? I have less qualms about cutting up a "1990s magazine where the interior full-page picture of Clemente would look great framed" than a 100 year old guide, though that's not my decision to make for others. But at the same time...

We don't have to allow (or as some would say, promote) that on B/S/T.

Hence my "No" vote.

I would like to hear from any of the 7 people that voted the straight out "yes" without voting for the yes with caveat. Were these just quick votes without reading all the options? Or are there actually people on here that believe it is OK to sell these without full disclosure of what they actually are?

I may not personally like this
 

BUT, if the item is legitimate, the seller has a right to do whatever he or she wants to do. I know one dealer (who has passed on) who did nothing but cutting out things from magazines/papers. I know other people do this as well.

We can choose to buy or not buy these, but it is the seller's right. And if you are so upset about this, pay more then they do on EBay and buy the items yourself. If you complain and don't bid to own these, then you really have no say.

And on a modern example -- how about the 1954-55 Sports Illustrated Cards im the 1st 2 issues and then in an 155 issue. Now these are probably more expensive when still in a full magazine;but, if you have a damaged magazine, then taking out these cards are fine. Do you have to disclose these are cutout -- well most collectors know,... My point is no one complains about those items. I think the biggest issue is the TPG but as long as legit and described properly, it *is* a legt collectible.

Someone posted a while back about what TPG's would not grade, yet here is another borderline case.

Rich

Not really....This is not a democracy. Jury is still out....

Who is on the jury? :)

me


and as you know Adam, 99% of the time I fall into your line of thinking. All that rhetoric being regurgitated, I can't imagine the board overwhelmingly not wanting, or wanting, something and us not doing what the vast majority would want. So far it looks like they will be allowed in the correct section and with full disclosure.

I was actually referring more to outside the BST realm. However, once you allow them with a caveat, everyone is going to say they were cutout from old falling apart publications. Thus, the realist in me says, if you allow them with the caveat, then just allow them period.

I am 100% against the cutting out and chopping up of vintage pieces. Having said that, I don't see why there should be any issue with them being sold on the BST, providing they are described accurately. VERY accurately. Where it gets sketchy is when pieces are chopped up and then those pieces are slabbed and sold as something being presented just like a card, even if they are not outright described as a "card." That seems very misleading to me and a novice collector could easily get burned.

-Ryan

The same way a show promoter is allowed to tell a dealer that only vintage material can be displayed and not shiny stuff, or to say no beanie babies are allowed at the show, Leon is free to prohibit these cutouts from the BST. It has nothing to do with ethics or anyone's right to cut them up, it's how he wants the board to look. It's his board, so he decides. He is simply taking input to help come up with a decision.

The discussion has been great - you couldn't pick a more appropriate group of collectors to discuss such an issue, unless you were able to get Libertyforall and a couple of old book dealers to join in. I'm surprised that the majority of our group supports this practice, but I do realize that the goal of most is to get their item for their collection, and will do any rationalizing necessary.

My suspicion is that now that this practice is 'Net 54'-approved, we'll see more people purchasing these books with the idea of cutting out pictures for their collections, or for re-sell.

I hope we aren't assisting the support of this practice, but sadly, I agree, that I think we are.. Having said that, I do own a few of these. One is an older woodcut, that I greatly trust was from a "damaged" book. Mostly, I purchased a handful for framing and display, which I'm fairly confident were taken from good books.. Although, I will admit there are a few that I cherish as collectibles(although, I probably shouldn't). The 1893 Cleveland team, with Cy and others, plus a few that are probably the only career contemporary items that my collection will ever see of Sockalexis, Moonlight Graham, and a few negro leaguers.. Another small handful act as placeholders in(or supplemental to) my HOF rookie(pre-rookie) collection(only if they pre-date anything else released of a player).

But like I said, I'm fairly confident that all but 2 or 3 of the dozen or so that I own came from good books, which does make me sad, and perhaps a bit angry.. And it is fairly easy to tell if they came from badly damaged books or not..

David, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Based on these discussions, I actually feel that maybe I'm overemphasizing the historical value of these books. As Adam says, they are not priceless illuminated books, and on the other end of the spectrum they aren't modern magazines. They are somewhere in-between. Perhaps the best you can do, if it's important to you, is to build your own library of original books. They haven't gone up in price over the last ten years, despite the cut-outs, so it's possible that there are so many of them available that we have an endless supply ;)

It's not a simple topic. My usual rule is 'as long as it is described accurately.' However, I'm against the destruction of books and similar. However, many cutouts pictures and such are found in old albums and on old autographed index cards, and I don't think should ban the sale of those things cut out 100 years ago. If you look at a kid's Victorian album you'll see all sorts of cutouts and long ago handmade 'diecuts' mixed in with the trade cards and scraps.

So I'll say they can be sold as long as they are accurately described. But I'll voice my opinion (I said opinion not rule) that books shouldn't be destroyed in modern times.

And, realize, that if you ban book and magazine cutout pictures, you'd have to ban the sale of cutout Harper's Woodcuts to be consistent. I'm pretty sure even the purists don't mean to ban the sale of Harper's Woodcuts and have even sold them. As I said, it's not a black and white topic. Some Police Gazette 'supplements' are full page pictures from the magazine with article text on the back, though I suspect the publisher half expected, or even intended, that many would cut them out. Likely, most on the market were removed from the magazine when the magazine came out.

Though the woodcuts can be removed as part of the whole pages without scissors, as the magazine pages were loose and folded like the standard newspaper. No staples or binding involved. On the other hand, some might argue that removing loose pages from the rest of the magazine is still a sort of destruction. The famous Leslie's Illustrated James Creighton woodcut is a middle two page spread with a fold line down the middle. It's not cut out, but was removed from the publication.

For the record, I'm not against the selling of Harper's Woodcuts.

David, I don't understand this logic at all. Reach Guides were sold with photos as support for the text. Harper's woodcuts were sold with full-page woodcuts that were sometimes even hand-painted at the time, the publishers creating a product that was more appealing because it had pages that images that could be removed. Plus, it was a newspaper, not a book. I frequently tear articles, etc., out of my daily newspaper without thinking twice about it.

That's sort of what I'm thinking.

If they're banned outright, then there's a whole list of stuff that also could be or should be.
The "cards" published in newspapers.
1910 orange borders
70's Hostess card singles.
The 6 card panels from Dynamite magazine, either cut or just removed.
partial Topps AD panels

All of those were intended to be cut out, which makes a bit of a difference.


And on the opposite end of things......
One of the things in the huge magazine and book batch was a book that would actually be pretty valuable in good condition. A book with a little text, and I think 12 or so plates of women done by one of the famous artists like Christy or Gibson(I forget exactly who) What I got was a water damaged copy with none of the plates. :( But since the plates are available from other people that remove them, I could eventually reassemble the book. I haven't pursued it because the cost of plates while less than a nice copy is more than a crummy one.

Steve B

I agree that the Harper's publisher may have assumed many of the woodcuts would be removed and may have even printed the full page spreads for people to put on their walls. Irrelevant to publisher's intent (which I don't know), it was reader fashion to remove the woodcuts. I also agree that cutting up a hardbound book is commonly perceived differently than cutting out clippings from yesterday's newspaper. But many would say taking a scissors today to a complete Harper's Weekly is destruction and the magazine should be left in whole-- irrelevant to what the original publisher intended or subscribers thought.

It's not a black and white topic and things can be viewed from different angles and sentiments.

They still make those? :p

I add that I also understand that the Reach and other guides are thick information and statistical sources for historians and researchers, such as Scott, and cutting them apart hinders research. If I bought a Reach guide for research and found 20 pages removed, I'd be pissed-- irrelevant to how the destruction effects the market value of the book. Same as if I got Catcher in the Rye and discovered halfway through that pages 115 and 210-12 are missing. That copy would be a waste of money if I got it for free.

Absolutely no. Cutouts should not be allowed to be sold either her or on eBay for two compelling reasons:

1. A "cut out" picture is an alteration of the original page it come from. Like an altered sports card, it should not be given a numerical grade, much less encapsulated at all (see below).

2. "Cut outs" are typically produced on thin paper and usually involve rudimentary printing methods. As such, they would be much easier to counterfeit or duplicate than actual sports cards. Allowing these types of items to be sold is like opening Pandora's box. If there's a legitimate demand for such things, collectors would be better off buying the publication and doing the cutting themselves. Sports cards that were produced to be collected and traded are an entirely different entity than paper cut-outs. It's like the difference between a studio portrait and a polaroid.

Edited to add:

I have one other thought on this subject. Many of the cut-outs, particularly those from Spalding and other similar baseball guides, are usually seen in graded holders of some kind. If cut-outs were a legitimate, stand-alone collectible, you would see similar quantities available for sale that were "raw" or ungraded. But you don't. That, to me, is clear evidence that there is an effort on the part of sellers to deceive and that cut-outs themselves, are a contrived collectible.