T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?
 

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere.

As a bit of a T206 nut and guy who tends to stray down the path of the crazy T206 errors and back hype. Heck I even tried to buy the "Blue" Old Mill so I'm one to talk. :)

I just find this more than a bit silly….and a real stretch. If not Huggins making the leap what consignor spun this hope and dream story? Makes you wonder.

With no real true sheet this is nothing more than a purchase of faith IMO. Sometimes we deserve to be made fun of as T206 guys. :D

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=63340

Cheers,

John

P.S. I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around. :rolleyes:

Ridiculous!
JimB

It was discussed but the thread had a very cryptic title so it would have been easily overlooked:

"Strech"

x 2

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread. :o

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

not just you john.

Make the most out of nothing... it think like you.

The market will decide.

I believe that the card should be listed as the card not what it could possibly be. If the cosignor requests the extra info be added it should be added within the description and clearly stated that it is added at the request of the cosignor that way the auction house isn't the one who looks like they are pulling one over on the collecting community. It is the title of the Auction that bothers me more than giving the extra bit of info. (Of course the price is a bit crazy to)

Personally...I think things like this reflect poorly on the auction site...and if I owned one...I would never partake in such nonsense.

Leon, I disagree with you on this one, well half disagree. :)

While I agree the market will decide to a point. I think some accountability should be with the purveyors of the merchandise also. With a hobby that has newcomers who may not be aware of the nuances of certain issues and why something like the above isn’t a stretch but an almost total leap of blind faith for a myriad of reasons.

I think the first line of defense should be auctions houses looking to protect the hobby they benefit from. Not just playing a blind role and letting some sucker swallow a pill with the “hey we did our part or it’s not for us to decide” attitude. Bottom line if this was a guy on eBay or the BST we would be laughing and poking fun. For me there’s enough hobby knowledge around that most of us would never make such a claim about this card.

In the end for me personally I see these types of things as price tag in someone’s integrity and I see that H&S price starts at 5k opening bid. That’s just my view and respect others who may disagree with me.

Cheers,

John

Worth a fifty cent premium.

Nothing more than two snake oil salesmen(AH and consignor) trying to lure someone into buying their venom.

It's possible
 

How embarrassing!!

I love this line...try to make sense of this nonsense: "But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

Yeah, we'll anything's possible, possibly!!

A sound, reasonable suggestion
 

The back is off-center, so ideally this should reflect negatively upon its ending price when compared to a similiar, well-centered back example. Perhaps the auctioneer should emphasize this defect more in their lot description so as to minimize the consigner's and auction house's take on this card.

Brian

Derek, agree funny stuff.

If anyone would like to buy this card for 5k it may be possible it was next to Wagner and it may be possible that it has a partial Wagner back. My integrity is also for sale today and my integrity includes free shipping PayPal is ok. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...50miscut_1.jpg

PM sent, will you accept PayPal gift/friends?

Look at you guys, still trying to save a buck on the sale of Wonka's integrity. Tsk, tsk. You realize that leaves you no buyer protection right Chris? ;)

b i n g o !!

A $30-$50 card with a $5,000 opening bid!! Unbeleivable!! Something tells me the cosignor might have some affiliation with the auction house!

If a newcomer spends 5k on this type of card then they should be able to handle whatever comes their way. If a used car salesman says the car was only driven by a little ole lady on Sundays...then the engine falls out going out of the used car parking lot, whose fault is that? It's called puffery and is part of sales. Caveat Emptor. And just because it's not on our BST is it really getting a free pass?

That's BS!!! Is the world of BB card auctions becoming the wild wild west...it always has to be caveat emptor. Puffery is utilized in sales to sell things that can't stand alone...just like in this situation!

I should rephrase...Goodwins ridiculous writeups are puffery...neverending spewage not related to the item for sale...but this example is desception...and is not the same as puffery!

True Leon. We are ripping that auction to shreds. However, some PT Barnum subject will surely bid on it. We are talking about the same pool of people that bid on a 1952 Toops Mantle #311 rookie card (SGC 9)!!!

Sorry Chris moved to our Fall Auction.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ant/5552-1.jpg

Also for you fans of T206 will be a rare “Blank Piedmont miscut Wagner partial back” this rare card was just recently discovered. Having missed its printing of it’s soon to be miscut Piedmont back which naturally would have been Wagner. It may very well be the only blank miscut partial Wagner back card in the hobby. Stay tuned.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...e/Bowerman.jpg

Catalogs and reminder emails go out next week.

Lolol

funny Wonka :)

After carefully checking my duplicate Old Judges I would like to announce to the world that I have what might be, not one, but several cards with partial Anson in Uniform backs. This is difficult to confirm, since all Old Judge backs are blank, but I just have a good feeling on these. My local palm reader felt a spirit confirmation from Cap that these cards may be his. Please send all bids quickly--they will not last long! LOL what a joke!

No Leon saying the wine has hints of oak and caramel with subtle traces and after tones of tobacco is puffery. Claiming the bottle of wine may have been served at the last supper and may have been used to fill Jesus’s glass is called misleading fabrication storytelling and not sales. :)

While I agree there has to be some responsibility with the buyer. The purveyor has a responsibility in this transaction as well. As an owner of an auction house and collector I would hope you would agree appears not.

The above car analogy also outlines more of a fraud than puffery. If a car dealer is telling folks the car is gem as the engine falls out when you drive away he or she was hiding something from the seller. Telling you the chicks dig the 89 Buick Regal is a puffery although mine never got me laid can I sue?

It’s clear you and I have different views on what is considered salesmanship and misleading information to take advantage of someone. You know many of us gave Goldin some serious crap myself included for his Shop At Home days how is this Huggins lot any different I wonder?

Cheers,

John

Jay can I get one? :D

Sorry, the first tranche has already moved. Woops, you are in luck, I just found another.

On another baseball related board I belong to, such a thread (or post) is known as a "Molina".

A "Molina" is any post that is made or thread that is started that turns out to have been made "too slow" because a prior thread or post says the same exact thing. "Molina", of course, in honor of the group of brothers, some of whom are the slowest men in baseball.

Perhaps on this board we could call it something else. A Lombardi perhaps...although that could get confused with a certain Packer head coach. A "Schnozz" maybe?

Tom C

That has to be the post of the year!!! Thanks for brighting up what was a dreary Monday, John :D

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

It sounds to me like some people are upset at the price that the card may bring. Collectors tend to get upset when prices go up, and they do not have the item in question. Are you telling me, that if you owned this card, you would simply sell it for whatever amount a T-206 common sells for? I find this hard to believe. I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

I agree with Leon. The market will decide.

Complete BS. It is a fabricated premium. You might as well say ALL T206's are worth $5,000 minimum because they came from the same set as the Honus Wagner.

brock...are you looking at the same card here?

Brock you nailed it, just sour grapes plain and simple. Good catch.

Sweet
 

My collection just took a huge upswing in price. I also have a pied 150 Brown, and if you look closely, his eyes are actually looking towards Honus (Three finger knew what was up!) so I'd be willing to let this one go for $2750....

LOL, Tony.

Honestly,this just seems like the evolution of T206 collecting to me. What with premiums for scraps, ghosts, missing colors, added colors, stray dots, missing dots, overprints, underprints, brown backs, brownish/blackish backs.

Always looking for the next big what if, or variation. Seems as if it was only a matter of time before somebody came up with something like this.

Any other set it would just be a miscut or off-center curiousity. Looks like you T206 guys just got what you were asking for. :D

.........and I'd wager whoever this "consignor" is, is most likely one of these advanced "collectors" you all know and love.

Damnation
 

Damn, Wonka -

I just took him out of my safe to polish him up for my big pay day and he's changed a little - I'll still let him go for $2750, any takers? He was still next to Honus...

Dave,

I wouldn’t make this just a T206 thing as it’s a hobby thing with one of ones and highest graded ever ever ever etc. But agree 100% some of us T206 folks are guilty of this stuff and have added fuel to the fire.

Really though most serious collectors of T206 wouldn’t make this leap…this is not a stretch it’s comical. In fact comical enough for another reputable auction house to pass on this card and story when offered.

I think much of this hype is what it is hype.....

My point is there should be some accountability with the sellers also. We as collectors should expect that from the folks who ask for our money. Auction houses need to make sure if one is going to sell off of these wild claims there should be some form of due diligence performed beyond…well I can’t disprove it….so let it ride not my problem. That’s a really dangerous slope that needs to be corrected IMO for the good of the hobby.

Cheers,

John

HoC
 

is huggins and scott still associated with House of Cards in Maryland for tax benefits?

In my opinion, this is just as bad as those black gentlemen trying to pass of that fake Wagner rookie card as real. OK - we get it, this card is situated beside the Wagner on the sheet. And I can see a case if it was the front of the card, and you saw proof that the Wagner card was there (ie - half of Honus's face). But there is nothing here. Someone is trying to turn a $30 card into a $5,000 card, plain and simple. Next thing you know, Bob Cerv's rookie cards will be worth $50,000 because he was Mantle's roomate.

I don't know John. I think henceforth the T-206 set should not be considered "complete" without the famed Bowerman "Honus Wagner back".

:D



Yes, it's ridiculous, but I'm not exactly surprised an auction house ran with it to test the waters with the oddball T-206 crowd.

If that card gets a bid and sells, I will be SHOCKED!!

"black gentlemen"
 

As I asked the last time someone else used similar terminology to describe Edwards and Cobb, if they were white, would you have called them "white gentlemen"? Presumably not. So why identify them as such? No accusations here, I am genuinely interested in why their race is relevant.

I have to ask:

Did John Voight own it?

I already decided to never bid with these guys again, after the debacle where they came on here justifying their shill bidding, then backing down and claiming they wouldn't do it anymore.

This kind of nonsense just proves my decision right.

I hope they realize that by doing this sort of stuff, they lose the respect of a lot of potential bidders.

I apologize. I did not know their names. If women had owned it, I would say, those two women. I guess I should just say those TWO PEOPLE to be politically correct.

I would think two guys is PC enough.

There used to be a time when people embraced their heritage. Would Jim Thorpe be ashamed if I called him an American Indian? This world has gotten too PC. I blame Jesse and Al for most of this....

What if (instead of the back) this card was O/C on the front? What if there was a hint of Wags on the front?

I have a Honus Wagner Sweet Caporal with a blank front that was accidently printed with the portrait of Bowerman.

Brian

Like I said in an earlier post...there is a case for that....a sliver of yellow...the letter "G"....SOMETHING....that card has NOTHING going for it....someone trying to turn $30 into $5,000. That is it.

Beat me to it.:(

There is a line in the sand between puffery and dishonesty. This one crosses that line. Not the worst transgression I've ever seen, but still not cool.

I don't think it's a matter of embracing one's heritage or not, more a question whether it's appropriate to initially identify someone by reference to racial/ethnic background.

My black friends referred to me as "the white guy who drove the black honda". I had no problem with that. I am not going to talk race anymore on this thread. I will talk about a Bowerman card trying to pass himself off as being worth $5,000 due to being Wagner's neigbor on the sheet. What will the next craze be - all yellow background T206's because they share the same color as the Wagner???

Now this would be worth 5k.

http://i.imgur.com/ErIrg5W.jpg

Ask the scrap men, I am sure they will come up with something? :D

Omg....
 

I just read this thread and I'm still peeing my pants!! this is soooooooo funny....:):o

Has anyone been able to find a single other example – of a miscut or misprinted – Bowerman - or Brown (portrait) – that contains a part of the card that could be Wagner?

38 days until the auction. Long time to look.

Hysterical leap IMO and at a minimum puffery.
Tells me what they think about the average T206 "oddity" collector.
But OTOH I am rarely surprised at anything in any AH description anymore, way past that.

Reminds me of an ad I saw in SCD many moons ago; "1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Error card - Blank Front and Back

+1 Agree!!

Brock, is this your consignment. You seem to be the only one defending this pos.

HAha! Nice one, Chris!

Man, if that card actually existed I'd imagine Johnny's head would literally explode from the excitement. :D :D :D

No.
I just don’t understand what all the hubbub is about, with the exception of the very funny and witty commentary.
I think the description is straight forward.
Actually I think it shows the strength and intelligence of the house to present the card in the manner in which they have. Straight forward and carefully worded, qualified, explained.
If you do not want to spend the money, then don’t bid.
I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card – than some academic variation, that is of little historical value - and may even consist of a dot on a common player card.
But everyone is entitled to spend their money how they wish!

LMFAO!!!!! What?!?!?! I have a 1952 Topps Jake Pitler card!! It could have possibly been in the same pack as a Mickey Mantle card!!!! I shall auction it off - starting bid of $25,000.

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

Earlier I thought who would buy into this yarn anyway....behold Net54 has once again come thru and delivered my answer. :)

Brock on the off chance you care or perhaps just don't know. Let us know I and others would be happy to explain why this is so off....way off.

Cheers,

John

Well said Jim agree.

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

+1

Crazy.

Hi John,

I understand very well the arguments relating to the percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.

I will say though – that in now a dozen posts in this one thread – you have restated in different words that the offering is “way off”.

In your 13th post in this thread, why don’t you clearly state – why – you - feel it is “way off”.

This is just stupid that they would do this. They have totally lost my respect.
The back of any Wagner has nothing to do with the value and it clearly does not show any of the front.

I think this is a fair opinion pertaining to the card...... All of the other rhetoric being spewed makes for good reading :).

John,

I just re-read your statement: “I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around.”



I want to point out one important fact that escaped you – and that has great import with regard to assigning a percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.



It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED.



So it is Not that only 50-100 Wagners were printed. Indeed Wagners may have been printed for weeks/months. There may have been thousands or tens of thousands. Given the speed of communication at that time, this may in fact be likely.

It appears that to avoid legal action, the company ordered that the Wagners be “destroyed”.

But the Bowermans, that may have been printed next to Wagner, were not destroyed.

T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?
 

Source?

Even if that small % of ink was meant for the back of a Wagner, which it was not, it is in no way any % a Wagner.

I've found this thread really amusing, hopefully it won't devolve like a few others have. Johns ad is one of the funniest things I've seen on her in a long time.

I've also given it a lot of thought, and I'm a bit more ambivalent about the auction than most.

I think describing the card as maybe a partial Wagner is a long stretch right now. .
Perhaps in a few years with more research it will be less of a stretch. Maybe even provable someday. But that day is years if not decades away.

Brock has some good points.
We don't know how many were printed
Or what method was used to stop production and destroy any remaining.

But.......
We can make a few good guesses.
There are very few Piedmont Wagners. I can only find references to two, I'd assume maybe another 2-3.
SC Wagners come with both factory 25 and 30 backs. And there are quite a few of them compared to Piedmonts.
The sales figures are approximately known for both brands.
So it's possible to estimate the total number of 150 series cards.

It's likely that SC production of the sheet including Wagner was stopped, probably quicker than weeks or months later. Communication between major cities wasn't all that slow. And there are a number of 150 series cards that show production was either stopped early (Magie) Or stopped and plates redone. (Tinker hands on knees, maybe a couple others)
The numbers lead me to believe no set of plates was run much longer than 3-4 weeks,
I think the Piedmont Wagners are most likely printers scrap, finished fronts used as setup sheets.

The sheet layouts aren't known, not even the overall size. There are some good theories, but nothing proven yet.

It is possible to group each card by small differences in the fronts.
It might be possible to also do that for the backs, but aside from a few major consistent flaws like the plate scratches it's not certain.

So, perhaps someday it will be possible to know what both cards of a miscut back are, but not now. And I doubt there are enough Piedmont Wagners to ever make something like this provable.


I'll leave the value of something like that up to each individual, many of us wouldn't care, some would. Just as some of us would care about a minor caption problem, and some don't. Either view is just fine.

Steve B
PS - Can we all just stop valuing brand differences like Drum and Uzit ? At least until I have one of each? ......didn't think so...

"It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED."
:eek::eek::eek:WHAT!!??? This is important!! Please indicate where this information came from. I'm calling "Bull$hit"!

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

The bottom line is - is anyone here going to bid $5,000 for this $30 card!?!?!?!?!?! I can't wait to see the outcome of this auction!