Opinion on Mantle Inscription
 

Hi -- I've been lurking here for a while but finally registered and would love to hear folks' opinions on this Mantle autograph. (I feel ashamed that I'm asking for an opinion with my very first post -- but I am relatively new to the hobby, so please forgive me.) Thanks.

That is a forgery.

Second, I know where it came from.

compare it to this inscription and I think you'll see the difference.

I will have more on this subject tonight.

That is hillarious!

Haha that Yogi ball is real?

Yes

I gotta say I've been impressed with Mantle's humor. He's got some funny inscriptions out there.

Gotta say, as the owner of the unfunny ball in this thread, I am dying to learn more from thetruthisoutthere. If it's a forgery, at least I hope there's a story to be told about it.

Not "if". It is for sure a forgery. Though it looks better than Greg Marino's.

Spiral--

Sorry, but your ball is not even close to authentic--a real poor attempt for sure!

I would be willing to guess that the person Chris is talking about is S.K.:eek:

The group that penned the Op's Commerce Comet Mantle also penned this one (forgery):

Attachment 118492

Shelly, I do not know if SK was involved or not.

American Memorabilia used to auction this type of Mantle many many years ago. All of them had inscriptions and came with a COA from Mike Frost if I remember correctly. Let me see if I can find some in the old auction archives.

Who was Mike Frost's partner?

You already said it ;)

These photos will say it all:

These are forgeries.


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I am sorry but with all do respect you are not correct. The baseball and 90% of all inscriptions on Mickey Mantle's items that have been credited to me never came from me. This was a common statement in the 1980's and 1990's. I would often hear or see listing stating from the collection of Michael Frost. I worked with Mickey Mantle for 13 years and honestly I would say in all that time I may have received 30-40 items with inscriptions. Most were sold in the 1980's, and I have only seen about a dozen or so authentic signed baseball's with curses on them. I was very close to Mickey Mantle and it was something he would rarely do. Most of the Mickey Mantle's with inscriptions other then personalization's sold in the market today are not authentic and surely did not come from me. As far as Stephen Koschal (SK) I was partners with him with autograph shows and briefly with autograph authentication. I have no idea of him having any involvement with Mickey Mantle nor have I ever supplied him or sold him any Mickey Mantle signed items.

Michael, how you do explain the above AMI listing that reads "This great display piece was signed in the presence of Mantle friend & associate Mike Frost, who had the foresight to let Mantle have fun with a pen, and do what he did best-namely be Mickey."

Please explain those two ads, Michael?

Did you call these auction houses to set them straight?? I'd make darn sure my name wasn't put into auction with fraudulent materials!

Ken

What you are showing is nothing new, this was from over 4 years ago and what consigners say or what auction companies write is not in my control.
I am sure you do not believe everything you read or what ever you hear. If so there are many things written about you on the Internet that I would not even think about asking you about.
Chris, I have been involved in this industry for over 30 years now and I have heard every known story, lie and theory about autographs a dozen times.
As you know I was very close to Mickey Mantle for many years, at one time I was one of the only sources for dealers to obtain authentic autographs directly from Mickey Mantle via private signings. I have personally had three autograph shows with Mickey Mantle and I have handled over 20 private signings for Mickey Mantle from 1985 - 1993. He was a good friend and there would be no reason at all that I would have ever had or sold forged Mickey Mantle signed items. This stories have been conjured up by forgeries, corrupt dealers, and mainly by jealous individuals who wish they had the privilege to be among the trusted friends and business associates that were able to work directly with Mickey Mantle.
You have done a nice job cleaning up many of the fake Mickey Mantle autographs that have been sold throughout the Interne,t but you have also made mistakes and false comments along the way. I have never got involved an corrected you nor challenged your opinions. I do thank you for your hard work and for the job you have done exposing many fake Jeter, Riviera, and Mickey Mantle autographs but here I must say you are very wrong and about 10 years to late.
The baseball that started this conversation I believe did not come from the same person that signed the 2 11x14 photographs. I have seen and discussed the 2 photos that you have posted from AMI years ago and I remember there was no COA and there was numbers and a signature on the back and they in no way were ever owned, consigned, or sold by me. The baseball on top I believe is something that is newer and I would like to see the type of baseball it has been signed on.
I also have no idea what Steve Koschal may or may not have to do with any of this? I have seen his name in the conversations and I surely will not stick up for him, but I know nothing of him and Mickey Mantle forgeries. I believe I would know were these New Jersey style Mickey Mantle autographs came from, but this was long before your time. I have files going back 20+ years on Mickey Mantle forgeries and exemplars and were they came from but I learned years ago , you can not fight the world.
Again I do thank you for your concerns and your hard work in keeping the autograph market authentic.

So, Michael, when those AMI catalog listings were produced in 2003, you didn't object to those item descriptions (the Mantle forgeries) reading "Signed in the presence of Mantle friend & associate Mike Frost......"

It was addressed years ago, the items were in their catalog 11 years ago during a time that I was not talking nor involved with American Memorabilia Auctions. It was brought to my attention about 6 months - a year after it was published. I do talk to Victor and Kieta regularly again and do consider them good friends. Contrary to what many say and what is all over the Internet they are good people and I believe them to be honest.
They are not the only auction house nor dealer that have used my name as an associate of Mickey Mantle it has happened many many times. There was and seem still are many jealous and envies people within the industry. There are not many that have been able to survive this industry for the length of time I have. The few remaining that come to mind would be Richard Simon, Jim Stinson, Mead Chasky, Josh Evans, Scott Goodman, Dick Gordon, B&E Collectibles and a hand full of others.

The ball is a Bobby Brown OALB.

Victor and Kieta good people?

I think the many people they have stolen from would disagree.

Who have they stolen from? That is hard to understand because they are still in business and doing well. They do not seem to be hiding from anyone, they have the same phone number and they always anser the phone. I have heard of some payment problem but many people have told me that they made payments and took care of their issues.

Is it Haiti or Costa Rica?

And what about this auction that was recently on Ebay, Michael?


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Mike, this is very well known and a little research will enlighten you.

No country stamp. (So post-1992?)

To be honest the signature does not look that bad via scan, I would need to physically examine the Mickey Mantle signature if you are interested in the authenticity. As for the COA, I can guarantee to you that is a forgery. Collectibles of the Stars was no longer open in 1997 and the signature on the COA is not mine nor my brothers. Where and who was this signed photograph purchased from?

In an unrelated question. I know your name's not on it, but I was wondering if you possibly know anything about the Cheetah the Chimp signatures that were discussed here a while back? Apparently they were signed in '97, with the COA using the names "collectibles of the stars" and Michael Wehrmann.

http://www.timelessautographauctions.com/lot-4319.aspx
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=176306

Mike, I could not just sit back a let you spew garbage. You brag about being friends with Mantle. If that is true why cant you authentic his signiture. It is just hard to belive a man who watched Mantle sign all those items cant tell a good one from a bad. I am sure not only Chris but many other people on this site have seen your PAAS letters that authenticated many forged Mantles.
If you where the only one handleing Mantle. Where was Tommy Catal and Gree Johnson at that time?

This was a actual private signing done by may partner Michael Wehrmann. I have never seen one authenticated by a 3rd party authentication company before. I do not understand how one can examine nor authenticate this signature without a library of exemplars. I would have to presume that this signature was authenticated based upon the credentials of Michael Wehrmann's name and reputation.
Each signed photograph was signed and numbered and was sold with a matching numbered certificate with the signature of the owner and the chimp. This private signing initially started out as a joke but it was very successful and did sell out. I believe the asking price in 1997 was $15.00 each and I am glad to see such a big increase. It would be something to start seeing forged Cheetah autographs in the market. :)

Thank You Michael... I know we all discussed it, mostly due to the 3rd party authentication, but I was still a little curious about the item in general.. So thank you for that response.

I figured I would help the group out and add a unique , authentic, inscription from Mickey Mantle to the exemplar pile.
This is November 1991, as it was waiting for me at my office when I came back from my honeymoon (1st wife. wedding 10/19/91). He didn't give my marriage long I guess....lasted 13 years

I'm curious about those stray dot's in the signature, Ken. Are his M's supposed to look like boobs when you turn the sig upside down?

[QUOTE=novakjr;1198065]I'm curious about those stray dot's in the signature, Ken. Are his M's supposed to look like boobs when you turn the sig upside down?[/QUOTE]

LOL!
maybe on that one, if so, it was a joke I didn't get till 22 years later

Really Mike, who had the first West Coast show with Mantle. I did two others with him as well in Vegas. You have authenticated more bad Mantles outside of the Donald and Morales and I don't keep examples of your crap. So stick the fifty cents where it belongs. I would be willing to bet that my opinion Mantle whould be much trusted on this site than yours hands down.
By the way you still selling hot dogs at Kiosc?

There are no examples just like the selling of Hot Dogs. 90% of what comes out of you mouth is a lie and the other 10% is questionable. You are not really the person that should be debating or even involved in any Mickey Mantle discussions. You are a small part of the reason that his autograph is worth about 25% of what it should be worth. You are also a reason that some authentication companies are using forgeries as their exemplars for authenticating Mickey's autographs. Your role even as a middleman and forger was also highly exaggerated and self promoted by youself. It would be best to go back to what you know best Strawberry and Mattingly Rookie cards.

Wow. Mike tell me something new. You forgot to mention it was authenticators like you that allowed us to sell that garbage.

Once
Once again a lie out of your mouth. I have never heard of you nor have I ever authenticated one item for you or your friends. Your crap was before I was authenticating for P.A.A.S. . You can thank a lot of the authentications of your crap on some of the major autograph authenticators and the lies and rumors you guys use to try to discredit the honest people in the industry.
You know nothing about P.A.A.S. , nothing about my involvement with Mickey Mantle and over 60 additional athletes that I had contracts and marketing agreement with.
Do not come out swinging your bull about me and my company when there are 100's of fakes being sold daily that you and your partner Chris do not even ever discuss nor dare to even show because of the stickers on them.

[QUOTE=kengoldin;1198069]I thought they were tears lol

Michael, it seems to me that every time I post a Mantle forgery with one of your COAs, you claim (like Mueller and Frangipani) that your COAs have been altered, modified, etc.

So what you're saying is that because your COAs (Collectables Of The Stars & PAAS) are so well-respected, that sellers are using them to sell their forgeries?

That seems to be the case, but do not make sound like it is everytime.
You have posted a hand full of stuff that has been around and discussed years ago. I have examined and authenticated over 400+ Mickey Mantle items it the past 3 years. where are all these fakes that you keep refering to? Look up PSA/DNA, JSA. GA, and maybe you may find some, but it would be rare to find a questionable P.A.A.S. authenticated Mickey Mantle item.
My certs and name has been used for years as an attempt by forgeries for credibility. As I said in the early post the jealousy in this industry is unmatched. My credentials will always speak for themselves, I have been attacked and lied about for years but unlike Spence, Grad, and Sipe whom I say nothing negative about, I am available to speak out, educate and correct the errors that so called "want to be experts" threw against the walls.
I have little time for the foolishness that you and Shelly are involved with.
I also feel you may be a key reason that some of the largest forgery groups in the industry are still in business. You are not taken seriously and you say many things out of your hat without proof and documentation.
Good Luck blogging.

Really, Michael.

Can you name one major auction house that utilizes you as an authenticator?

I am sure these where not your letters of authenticity.


PAAS Certified Autographs Removed From eBay
Posted by Steve Cyrkin on February 22, 2012 at 4:12pm in Autograph Authentication Services
View Discussions
Update: PAAS certified autographs with their new COAs and LOAs, which came out in May or June 2012 are now allowed on eBay again.

eBay has removed virtually all autograph listings with PAAS (Professional Autograph Authentication Service) COAs, apparently due to authenticity concerns.

It is estimated that approximately 800 listings were wiped out, and less than a dozen remained. eBay sellers reported that all of their PAAS autographs were removed except those also certified by other third-party authenticators. Sellers were told they would face possible suspension if they attempted to list them again.

While there has been no official statement by eBay, Michael Frost, PAAS's president and authenticator, acknowledged eBay's actions when I asked by email, but would not say why, suggesting we contact eBay. However he denied it was due to authenticity concerns.

However, emails from eBay provided to us by recipients contradict that.:

Why were the listings for my autographed items ended?
- We received reports regarding the authenticity of the autographs in your listings. Please be aware that we regularly receive such reports from rights owners, law enforcement officials and members of the eBay community. These reports were not the determining factor for why your listings were removed but they were taken into consideration.
In the past, blanket removal of a company's COA by eBay has been followed within a few months by an official listing on eBay's banned COA list. More on this situation as it develops.

[QUOTE=shelly;1198115]I am sure these where not your letters of authenticity.

Shelly, this is old news that has been straighted out a long time ago. It would be the same as me "saying that you are a two bit con man that was a rat and went to prison over selling fake autographs." I do not know what your issues with me may be but I am sure jealousy would have a lot to do with it. I never tried to correct any of yours or Christopher's mistakes and I am not looking to steal the spot like or have my name on TV and Blog sites. I am a successful leader in the autograph industry and I have all the proof and credentials need to prove my point. You and the other half ass experts and trouble makers can continue your games and have your fun. Just know that you and Chris are the reason nothing is being done about the fake autographs all over the Internet and throughout the industry. If you would have some credibility and use facts instead of making a fool out of yourself and talking rumors, and stories without facts, knowledge or evidence you maybe would be heard or taken seriously. What your fight is with me is still hard to understand but I can assure you can not play in the same game as me.

So Spiral Stairs, what is your favorite song from Wowee Zowee?

[QUOTE=Michael Frost;1198124]So you bringing up Shelly's past (14 years) isn't old news?

I also usually do not save stuff because much of it is so bad, but this
i had to save. when i was doing the hbo sports show I showed them a lot of bad mantles like this one. this comes from someone who did prvt signings and claimed to be a close friend of Mantle.

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[QUOTE=shelly;1198142]I also usually do not save stuff because much of it is so bad, but this
i had to save. when i was doing the hbo sports show I showed them a lot of bad mantles like this one. this comes from someone who did prvt signings and claimed to be a close friend of Mantle.


Shelly, you are a true joke as well as most of what you have to say. Can you 1st explain to our audience the issues with the autograph that you have just posted.

I have tried to avoid being involved in this thread but I do have to state that Shelly's opinion is held in high regard on this forum.
His accuracy is probably 90% or better on autographs he comments on.

I'm more of a Slanted and Enchanted man.

[QUOTE=Michael Frost;1198149]Seriously? Holy crap!!!

That Mantle is awful.

Both are great records. Love the name man!

Now that you are involved can you please give your expert opinion on the Mantle and Martin posted by Shelly.?

Wrong thread. Please post this elsewhere.

I do not like the fact that people are getting into personal attacks for stating their opinions.
I am also not getting into what appears to be childish name calling on this forum.

That being said, if I was presented with the photo and someone asked me what I thought, I would tell them I do not like the mantle, AND I do not like the Martin.
If I am asked "why" I will reply that I am not photo shop user. There used to be someone on these forums that would draw great charts showing incorrect formations and slants. I do not get scientific.
As all of you know, I rarely comment on signatures and when I do it is only with an athlete whom I have personally seen thousands of autographs from by way of a contract I had with them.
That being said, I do not believe Mickey Mantle or Billy Martin ever held that photograph or put a pen to it.

Mike, here is a bet. $1000 sent to Leon. We will send this to Psa or Jsa and see if it is authentic or not. Put up or shut up. Money is being sent to Leon via Pay Pal if you take the bet.:)

[QUOTE=Michael Frost;1198149]Michael, I'm not trying to pile on here. I'm no expert, but even I know that the one that Shelly posted is REALLY BAD...

The 2 guys talking about records need to quit. Other than that hopefully everyone will continue to remain professional in the debates. Interesting stuff...

Mike, have a great life. I think you have shown everyone on here just who and what you are.:rolleyes:

Does this mean you are running away from the bet you were talking about???
By the way do you feel that the same person or people that signed the Mickey Mantle / Billy Martin photo you posted also signed this these ones or are these ones authentic?

How do you like the 2 additional Mantle Martin images I have posted? Is that more like the ones you are use to seeing?

Those are awful, too.

Michael, I was wondering, in what capacity were you "Employed by the US Government?"

http://www.paasautographs.com/credentials.html

Michael, last Christmas a friend of mine in Arizona sent me a copy of the book "Operation Bullpen" and wrote the below note in the book.

Yes, that Tim.

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[QUOTE=Michael Frost;1198124]Thank you.

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;1198509]Way to reel them in...hook, line, and sinker :eek:

I stand by previous comments that both Mantle/Martin autograph pieces are not authentic.

If both pieces were submitted to PSA today, I believe they would be rejected.

Is that based on who submitted them or on the autograph??????

I'd be happy to answer your question, Michael; after you answer my above question.

Do you have a 1099 you can show us?

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;1198495]Michael, last Christmas a friend of mine in Arizona sent me a copy of the book "Operation Bullpen" and wrote the below note in the book.

Yes, that Tim.
I guess then you must be an autograph expert? Just wondering if you also received the secret decoder ring?
I have be asked many times and it has been requested that I do not discredit you.
As you know the criminals and frauds in the industry strive on dueling authenticators or experts. That is one reason I have been asked not to make a fool of you, but since you have stowed that honor upon yourself I have just answered a few of your questions.
I honestly do not have the time nor should I be involved in blogging, youtube, facebook, or your daily horseplay.
Since you are so knowledgeable, and have been professionally sharing your educational and scientific answers to the collectors and the members of the autograph industry for the past few years. I would love to see your analysis of these Mickey Mantle autographs.? In honor of the Holiday season.

Michael. Again, I'm no expert here, but I wouldn't buy either of those Mantle balls.. I'm a little unsure though... I wouldn't feel comfortable labeling them good or bad, based on my limited knowledge. But I have enough questions about it, that I wouldn't buy it..

Sorry, I not get back to you and your thousand dollar request. My bet was not that it was authenticated in in 2002 when authenticators like you had no idea what they where doing. My bet is that it be sent now.
The bet stands.
Since you dont have the original the only way we can do that to be fair to both of us is send it out for quick opinion. If that is good then I will proceed with sending the money to Leon. I am sure that you will win but I like to give money away:D
If you dont take the bet then it really is time for you to just shut up.
By the way the forgers dont care who fights they only care if they can get there garbage authenticated. If you belive that piece of garbage of yours I put up there is authentic, you should retire.
If anyone else wants to bet that it is an authentic piece please state how much you would like to bet. Mike has said only ten percent of you trust my opinion. Oh and Mike you can make it up to as much as you want.