Bill Mastro denies widespread fraud in his auctions -- yesterday.
 

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=2454...comment-308922

Mastro seems to think that because his customers have not written to his judge already about his fraud that somehow he is absolved from the mountain of evidence of shill bidding against him -- and his own admissions of shill bidding in court yesterday. He also blames me apparently for his problems.

Bill, I know that you're aware that the people on this board do not have access to the records which show your years of shill bidding then. Had they seen these clear records they would be more outraged. Just because your customers have not written to the judge does not mean you did not rip them off. As your lawyers have all of these records, I'd invite you to publicly post them so that the bidders will know exactly what you did to them.

And blaming me for your problems is despicable and clearly shows you have not accepted full responsibility for your crimes. Just because I haven't met you doesn't mean I can't dislike you and what you did. I've seen the evidence of your guilt, I've read your allocution in court and I've also litigated against you -- and won. You're a disgrace and I hope that the members of this board finally get off their asses and do what you basically dared them to do: tell the judge what you really are.

haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Mastro-responds.jpg

how would I even know if I was the victim of shill bidding in one of Bills auctions?

+1....

According to Bill, if you didn't write a letter to his judge decrying how he shilled you -- then you apparently weren't shilled.

From Hauls of Shame, probably not worth much....

Sources indicate that the government’s biggest target could be authentication giant Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA), the company that graded the Wagner card for Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky after they purchased it at Sotheby’s in 1991. The Wagner was the first card ever graded by the company and its founder David Hall.

Even though I have considered Bill a hobby friend, and understand I was shill bid, I didn't have the amount of disrespect towards him which I do now, until I read his statement. That statement accepts no responsibility of his misdeeds. He caused his own problems, no one else. He really needs to accept responsibility for his actions. I find his statement disgusting. There were 2 letters? I can guarantee there will be at least 3 by the end of the day today. Nice work Jeff.

According to the information to which Mastro apparently pleaded guilty, after the Code of Conduct was published in 2007 by Doug, Mastro Auctions "caused restoration work to be done on trading cards sold by Mastro Auctions, and knowingly failed to disclose that restoration work to bidders." I wonder if we will ever know which cards were involved? Likely not.

Too bad the judge does not have an email address...he would get tons of emails from collectors.

Joshua

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604

The case name is U.S. v. Mastro, 1:12-cr-00567.

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

Will the actual fact in this case be public at some point?
So, we can all read as to exactly what went on in detail.

Yeah.....bid on hundreds of items over the years and don't doubt that SOMETHING happened. Just wondering how we know what particular item and how much the shilling was. Kind of difficult to write a nebulous letter assuming you were shilled. Doesn't sound good for the other plaintiffs given Mastro's statements. Assuming he will tell all to minimize his 2-1/2 years if possible. As for altered items, I remember a thread about a cabinet card that Jay Miller consigned that had had substantial work done on it that we discussed. Not sure it was disclosed till we discussed it.

Threatening is a far different offense than shill bidding. Not better or worse but a little more obvious than being bumped $100 on a $1000 card unnecessarily.......

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

By design and intention, much shilling is covert, hidden. The victims are not supposed to know they are being shilled. An auction house or consignor never sends you an email notice that they are bidding against you on lot #256. Many bidders never know their win price was artificially inflated.

On a side note, my guess/opinion is that these days it's more likely a consignor (or associates) places a shill bid than an auction house. Even where there are suspiciously high prices, if an auction house denies they shilled, they may be telling the truth.

Agree completely on a consignor......I would love to see substantive proof of me being shilled. I need to look back through the items I'd won......

Classic scumbaggery. Let's gloss over the fact that I cheated people and lied my arse off and let's instead focus on the fact that only 2 people wrote to the judge...

Maybe Nash can give Mastro lessons on proper prisoner deportment. Which gang shot caller does one fellate first? How much in canteen payments will it cost not to be beaten up each day? When purchasing a shank does one have to pay cash or is credit offered?

Letter I am planning to send to the court:

I am writing to you in connection with the above-referenced matter not as an attorney but as a collector and researcher in the sports card hobby, to provide some assessment of the impact of Mr. Mastro’s acts on the hobby. I am a contributor to The Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards as well as the author of America’s Great Boxing Cards, an encyclopedia devoted to the subject. I have also written articles for periodicals such as Vintage and Classic Baseball Collector and Old Cardboard. I do not know if my purchases from his company were fraudulent. In my opinion Mr. Mastro’s actions have caused damage far beyond merely the immediate victims of his fraudulent acts. Researchers like me rely on results of sales published by auction houses to establish values for the cards sold when preparing our books and articles. To the extent that there were fraudulent sales reported as actual sales resulting from bid manipulation on the part of Mr. Mastro and the others involved in his scam, it resulted in the dissemination of inaccurate card pricing data into the researching community. Sorting the fake data from the real data is going to take years and is probably impossible to correct until items are resold and new price points emerge. Card prices are like the prices for any other investment: accuracy is key. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Mastro’s actions undermined the accuracy of the prices reported for cards that his company allegedly sold, which hurts all collectors.

Letter
 

Good one Adam

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies:confused:

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

At this point, letters speaking to the man's character would be as good as letters regarding shill bidding. The idea is to move the judge closer to the five-year maximum sentence. To that end, I submit the following encounter I had with Mastro, long before the criminal enterprise formerly known as MastroNet existed. It was small potatoes, but captures the essence of a shyster. Originally posted on this forum in May 2007, in response to "Worst Collecting Experience":

---------
Early 90s…I buy a Babe Ruth signature watch via mail from a dealer in Rhode Island, not the common 40s character, but the rarer late 20s-early 30s art deco watch with Ruth’s facsimile autograph on the face. I showed the watch to my dad, an antique timepiece collector, who popped open the watch and said to me, “you just paid $500 (or $300?) for a dial.” What I bought was a watch face placed onto a movement too small for what may or not have been the original case so the movement had to be built out with a waxy substance so that it would fit into the case. I returned the watch and had my money returned, no questions asked.

Fast forward to a major Sotheby’s auction, the Copeland Collection, I believe, but certainly a sale with William Mastro consulting for the great New York house. There’s a Babe Ruth signature watch lot. It looks familiar. Very familiar. I go to the viewing. I get to meet the legendary Bill Mastro. I ask to see the inside of the watch. He says they can’t do that. I say it’s Sotheby’s and they have someone there who surely can open a watch. They open the watch and it is, of course, the very same watch I owned briefly: same scratch on the crystal, same waxy substance, same watch. I point out the problems to Mastro. He says, “So?” I tell him I owned the watch, bla, bla, bla…he says, “Impossible. It’s been part of the same collection for years.” Oh well, maybe someone had been mass-producing these things for years.

The watch sold for 900 bucks. I learned a very valuable lesson in expertise.

Joe, good story.

Greg, it sounds like you don't have a problem with Bill so you might not be the correct person to write to the judge. Maybe you can write to him about JP Cohen? :)

In all seriousness, defendants send scores of so-called character letters to sentencing judges in an effort to convince the judge that the defendant is a better person than the crime he committed would indicate, that there is another side of the defendant. Rarely, however, do victims of the defendant write in and provide a human face to the ramifications of the crimes. I can tell you that such letters make a difference. I'm not suggesting for a second I want Mastro to get maximum jail time, I just want the sentencing judge to know the truth about what Mastro is which, at least yesterday, made clear he still refuses to accept responsibility for his crimes and continues to blame others for what he and only he did.

Now I wish I saved the email thread that I had with Bill!

I was Selling an SGC 60/5 E90-1 Ty Cobb. In the end... I decided not to sell it to him... at ALL, For any amount! (I decided not to sell it to him because he began to become frustrated & abusive during our email negotiations) He then delivered "A Most threating speech", that would of made you, have Jeff's Desire, to see Bill get what he deserves!

After about a year went by, I read that Good ole' Bill found religion to help save his neck! I knew from our email conversation's that he must of went through a "Quicking" in his conversion.

I eventually sold the card through REA and received a Fair price, $3,000 more than the Belligerent Bill swore It wasn't worth!

This is All I Know About Bill... And I don't Care if he Trimmed the "The Card"!

As Always...

Adam's point is well taken. I don't know if I was a victim or not. Nevertheless,the damage done to the hobby as a whole is tremendous and the Judge should be made aware of that.
I know that Peter Nash would accuse Rob Lifson of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby if not for the fact that that happened decades before Rob was born. Nevertheless, as to his assertion on the Hauls of Shame website that Lifson knew the Wagner was trimmed when he sold it in 2000, I would like to know whether this can be proven or whether it is just another pot shot at REA that Nash likes to take at every opportunity.

+1

I guess the current owner of the highest graded Wagner is happy with the item irregardless of whether it was trimmed or not...or that it's thus graded and priced inaccurately... his quote from Yahoo Sports states.."As a collector of rare cards and a fan who enjoys the history of the game of baseball, today's news does not change my pride in owning the Honus Wagner T-206 card. In fact, I've been advised that the notoriety of this turn of events has actually increased the value of the card and I will continue to enjoy having it as part of the 'Diamondbacks collection.' "

Well he should heed Adam's words...if he's truly in it for the "fun of collceting" he should be saddened by this turn of events like all of us are...

Ricky Y

We should put together a petition with as many signatures we can get. Someone should write a letter describing the state of the hobby and the corruption and fraud and how much we support a strict penalty for Mastro. I would certainly sign that!

partner
 

who was Bill's partner at the time? wasn't someone else his equal in that AH?

didn't the company continue, just with a name change?

who is to say the shenanigans stopped just because they changed a name?

....that would be Uncle Jeff's old buddy Dougie Allen. :)

It wasn't called Smith auctions...it was Mastro Auctions..Bill owned it, or the majority of it. The company sold to Legendary Auctions and the executives at Mastro are the executives at Legendary, plus or minus one or two....
...No one said anything about anything stopping. As of yesterday the investigation was ongoing. I heard that from a reliable source.

with all this talk of shill bidding, I'm so glad I don't provide auction houses my max bid. It's like leaving a stranger a key to your house.

Oh Jeff, you know big brother is watching me so I have to be nice to everyone--especially JP Cohen otherwise I will not be able to post here and what would you and others do without my valuable posts? Actually hoping JP will become an advertiser soon.

Thanks for the info on the character letters. Assume you wrote yours? If not, I guess you can just cut and paste comments you made here to save time having to retype everything. :D

I think you're thinking of Don Steinbach. I've got Mastro & Steinbach catalogs from about '97-'99.

Here's to hoping he is the first of many. This hobby needs an enema.

Dude, you stole my line!! Maybe that was the other thread. :D

Sorry Peter.
In any event most all of my friends (3) will write you a letter letting you know I am not a plagirist (sp?). I did not see your post but going to look for it now.

plagiarist

The 'marm

I agree Jay, I won many items from Mastro Auctions and never put in a Maximum bid. I won all the items I wanted without a maximum bid. Certainly this does not address any fake items or items not describe accurately. I see that there are some members on a witch hunt. This happens all the time with celebrities, sports stars etc. But, I know Bill Mastro has admitted some wrong doings in the court, the Wagner being the big one. I don't see shill bidding anywhere. This will certainly get some feedback. Let's see the proof of shilling, name the items.

Joe

Jeff Lichtman is either in possession of or has seen the bidder records many times as he has alluded to it over and over. He has also said hundreds if not thousands of bidders were shilled. How do we get to see bidder records to see if we are victims?

Mastro/Max bids
 

If you've ever made any significant number of maximum bids with Mastro, you can be fairly certain you've been the victim of shill bidding if the following sequence of events transpired: (1) the auction is in the wee hours and winding down; (2) you are the high bidder at a price level significantly lower than your max bid; and (3) all of a sudden there is an incredible flurry of bids oh-how-so-coincidentally right up to but not over your max bid. You've just been "cha-chinged" up to your max by the master of the trade! Caveat Emptor--be aware that Mastro was not the only prominent auction house employing such slimy measures.

Regards to all, and to Jeff: Don't hold back--tell us how you really feel!

Larry

PS: Great letter, Adam.

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise. :eek:

Maybe it is pure coincidence, but I wonder if this is why Don Spence is retiring his sets and selling?

Mark

Maybe some do, but let's not lump them all together.

During SCP Auctions famous Dr. J Auction where rings and other items sold for historic highs, I bid on some of his trophies, and against my better judgement, entered maximum bids and went to sleep.

The next day, after the auction had ended, much to my amazement, I had won some awards and trophies at my last bid, and nowhere near my max bids.

Somehow the auction Gods helped me, and the crazy prices realized for Dr. J's rings and other items did not include the items I won.

My idle observation is that some people on Net54 don't have or use common sense (wishful thinking?), and/or fear being sued themselves by posting their true thoughts and insights on a public chatboard.

In a holder by complicity or poorly done work???

I am sorry to repeat this over and over again. I was there when the card was graded. So was Bill Heitman. Bill Huges came out and admited at that time the card was trimmed. For Psa to bury there heads in the sand and say they had no idea is total BS.
What amazed me the most is that the card guys belived Mastro and not there own eys.

Shelly you were there at PSA when (according to legend) Bill Hughes graded it? Who else was there and what were the discussions at the time?

It would take to long to write what took place. I would suggest reading the card I think it has all the info you will need. I can also tell you that I called Bruce on a bet after he bought the card. He said he knew it was trimmed but they where going to make a fortune just on the publicity.

Hey, Bruce ended up in prison -- where Bill Mastro will soon be as well. Circle of Life for fraudsters.

I've read it but it doesn't go into details such as who was there and what was said and only has Hughes' account, and people have cast doubts on Hughes' credibility. So your perspective would be very informative should you have the time to convey it.

Well, not all card trimmers, eh?

Yeah I am a bit confused too. I had never heard by anyone's account that Shelly was there. Yesterday I learned about character letters and today learned that there were a whole lot of people at PSA when the T206 Wagner was graded an 8.

Just think, if Hanky (Joe) Panky had handled the card it would have come back a "9".

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

Bill isn't biting the bullet for anyone. On the very day he was indicted in this case, his lawyer indicated he was cooperating with the feds. Bill Mastro is for one person: Bill Mastro. He's clearly pissed that he's receiving any grief for his crimes because, after all, this has been a tough time for him and his family.

I thought that in Catholicism, lying was considered a sin.

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

I also want to say I do not think that all of mastro employees were doing criminal activity . I have friends at legendary that worked for mastro for years, they get the benefit of the doubt from me until I see what and if anything ever unfolds.

What? A Bill Mastro thread without some information gleaned from Michael O'Keeffe? This forum is really starting to slip. ;)

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1482098

Quote from the article:

Prosecutors believe the scheme conducted by Mastro and his associates between 2002 and 2009 cost collectors between $400,000 and $1 million. Monico, who declined comment after the hearing, has said the scheme cost collectors between $30,000 and $70,000.

Are you not aware that two others were indicted?

Here is the thread that talks about it on the CU Forum.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...eyword1=spence

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

Very interesting Jeff, can you give us a hint without names? Let's say post number(s) :)

Tom, you got me...Bill and I made a killing on the Beanie Baby craze haha

So what's gonna happen to those people? That information should be released so we can all view it. Will that ever happen or will it be seals for some reason? I don't doubt that cons ignore shill their own items.

Richard....I'm thinking post 62.....

Probably people who bid in Mastro's auctions should consider hiring a lawyer (not me) to contact the court and see if these records can be released so that a determination of whether they were defrauded can be made. Or else a lawsuit against Mastro should be brought and the records subpoenaed. I'm not getting involved of any of it and honestly all I would like to see is for the crooks to disgorge their ill-gotten gains.

PS definitely poster #63.

I am shocked such things go on. :cool:

I have a question -

Did the Mastro auctions bidding system allow them (Bill and his crew) access to who was bidding and how much they were bidding, including information regarding what the bidder top bids were?

I can remember a time where you had to either phone in a bid and no computers were used. I suppose that would give the auction house the ability to really hose over their bidders.

Perhaps I'm a bit naive and I always believed that most of the top auctions were always on the level.

The shill bidding bugs me but the one thing that I've been finally waiting to hear is what everybody seems to have known about for a long time - the trimmed Wagner.

Maybe Bill will have some time to reflect when he's in his cell and maybe he'll come to terms with what he did and own up to what he did.

Answer: YES

That may be true for some posters, but I'm positive it's not true for others. It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you. Plus, you have only 5 years from the time to file a suit or you're out of luck.

This hobby is drenched with fraudsters, but I won't give up on collecting. Screw them for their awful behavior. I'll outlast them.

Bill

That the Wagner was rumored/alleged/accused of being trimmed was the about worst kept secret in the hobby for years. It ranked up there with 'ESPN chatboard talk Barry Bonds might have used PEDs.' It was openly talked about, even joked about, on this board and even the PSA board. Keith O. made snide remarks. To now say that this hobby bigwig or that hobby bigwig didn't know about these allegations is silly. That's why I posted my 'lack of common sense post.' If a 17 year old collector in small town Oklahoma heard stories the card was trimmed, it's hard to believe an industry insider was ignorant of the stories. Or, some might suggest, that they buyers didn't know.

The card was, at least for some, a commodity. Like hog bellies. If it brought a return, it brought a return.

PSA exists today as service for resellers and investors. That's what they are, that's how the describe themselves. They overtly advertise the financial benefits of getting your collectibles holdered by them. Average Joe eBay sellers on the CU board ponder aloud if it's worth their financial/resale investment to get such and such card graded-- or perhaps that issue is better to be graded by Beckett.

If you asked me what is the #1 thing I dislike about the art and collectibles industry, it's easy for me to answer: This money stuff. I'm no socialist, I understand collectibles have financial value, I've resold collectibles, if someone wants $10,000 for his baseball bat that's fine by me, if an auction house wants a 15% profit return in the next year I understand that. But turning the hobby into Money magazine, NYSE, investing clubs, is an entire turnoff. It's Donald Trump tacky. It's QVC. It's bad ESPN programming. There's a reason I don't own a television.

That is what makes you a socialist in my book! :D

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

Just for the record, I watched a 1930s Laurel and Hardy comedy on my laptop last night.

My vote for best/favorite Laurel and Hardy short (sitcom length) is 1931's 'Chickens Come Home.' Hardy is a married big cty politician and businessman running for mayor, when his past, in the form of an old gold digging girlfriend, enters his office. Blackmail, high society chaos and even gunfire follows. Co-stars vintage comic greats James Finlayson (butler), Thelma Todd (Hardy's blonde wife) and Mae Bush (the brunette femme fatale-- below). Available for free on youtube.

http://www.silentfilmstillarchive.co...me_home012.jpg

How do we know that this is not going on today?? We see it on ebay with bidders that have numerous bid retractions, and i am sure it is happening in other auctions as well.
Guess the big question is how do we assure that the consumer/bidder is protected in these auctions??
Should there be an independent council that monitors the big auctions?
Should the duration of bidding be shortened to 2-3 days max not 5 weeks?

Looking forward to other suggestions??
Maybe some auction houses can even suggest how do we make sure that our bids are not being shilled.

How do we know that this is not going on today??

If you suspect it, stop participating.
Why would they stop if we don't.
Therein lies the problem.

Hi Jeff,
Yes, i have for one stop bidding on items that are being sold by some sellers on ebay. It is easier to at least see the bidding trend or the bidders on ebay. However we have no clue in the auctions that are off ebay.

Big +1

The trimmed Wagner
 

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

The trimmed Wagner
 

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.