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-   -   Keith Olberman on Fred Merkle's boner, 105 years later (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=176218)

the 'stache 09-24-2013 03:54 AM

Keith Olberman on Fred Merkle's boner, 105 years later
 
Finally, I have a reason to watch ESPN again. Keith Olberman, long known as a passionate collector within our hobby, is back at it on ESPN with his hour-long show (10 PM Eastern on ESPN2). Last night, he led off the show with a look back at the circumstances surrounding the most infamous call in baseball history.

This is a must watch, unless you're a Cubs fan. Then you might want to avoid it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QVcGJwiO54

In honor of Fred Merkle, let's see those Merkle T202, T205, and T206s, etc! And ok, let's see those Johnny Evers cards, too. Maybe we can undo the curse, Cubbie fans!

h2oya311 09-24-2013 05:43 AM

I saw that last night too...cool story. I hadn't heard that story before.

I don't have any Merkle's, but here's my Evers Helmar Stamp to get things started:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...11%20Evers.jpg

t206blogcom 09-24-2013 06:04 AM

Good thing the title wasn't 'show your boners if you got 'em'
 
http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/u...-350-SGC-A.jpg

mattsey9 09-24-2013 06:45 AM

Great account. I love his new show.

Christy Mathewson wrote about the incident in detail in his book, Pitching in a Pinch. I got a Kindle copy free from Amazon and I'm sure it's still available there.

atx840 09-24-2013 06:52 AM

Sean, this is your moment :)

CMIZ5290 09-24-2013 07:17 AM

Merkle's boner doesn't compare to Lonnie Smith's in the 1991 World Series (Braves vs. Twins):mad:

the 'stache 09-24-2013 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311 (Post 1188273)
I saw that last night too...cool story. I hadn't heard that story before.

I don't have any Merkle's, but here's my Evers Helmar Stamp to get things started:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...11%20Evers.jpg

Very cool Evers, Derek. Now I need/want to learn about Helmar stamps. :p According to Jefferson Burdick, these are T332s.

I'd heard the Merkle story before, but I had not heard the part about the fan writing into the Chicago Tribune. Holy cow, either Olberman has some full time researchers chained up in his basement, or he's got a photographic memory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206blogcom (Post 1188277)

On any other forum, a thread titled "Fred Merkle's boner 105 years later" might necessitate an immediate edit by a mod. :D

Nice white border example. That's one of the T206s I need to add early on in my quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattsey9 (Post 1188283)
Great account. I love his new show.

Christy Mathewson wrote about the incident in detail in his book, Pitching in a Pinch. I got a Kindle copy free from Amazon and I'm sure it's still available there.

Hi Mike. I, too, love his show. I've set my DVR to record all his new shows going forward. I just hope Keith can behave. I don't want him getting kicked off the "mother ship" again. It's really the only thing on ESPN I look forward to. He talks about topics you won't find on any other sports talk show, and his semi-sardonic wit and love of the game makes for really interesting television.

I'll see if I can get that Matty book. If it's available in print, I'll buy it.

By the way, I just saw that Merkle was born in Watertown, Wisconsin, not far from where I grew up (Waukesha).

/wave good morning, Chris. :D

Zach Wheat 09-24-2013 07:44 AM

Merkle
 
You can also listen to Fred Snodgrass' account of the incident in the audiobook "The Glory of Their Times". Snodgrass sticks up for Merkle, stating that in those days, the umps opened the gates so spectators could get on the field immediately after the game. He states this was the reason Merkle ran to the dugout after McCormick crossed the plate.

Listening to the ball players relate stories in the 1st person, brings the accounts to another level. You really get a feel for what a joker Chief Myers was, how Hans ("Little Hans") Lobert was taken under the wing by Honus Wagner or how Rube Marquard hitched rides on rail road cars rode for 3 days for a shot at playing pro ball. One of my favorite stories was of Victory Faust and how he became the team mascot.

This is the only book I where I prefer the audio version over the printed version. You can hear the enthusiasm they had for early baseball.


Z Wheat

GoldenAge50s 09-24-2013 07:51 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Just wanted to add my raw Merkle Port into the mix. Didn't see the show.

sycks22 09-24-2013 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1188289)
Merkle's boner doesn't compare to Lonnie Smith's in the 1991 World Series (Braves vs. Twins):mad:

Knoby saved the series for us:)

Sean 09-24-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atx840 (Post 1188286)
Sean, this is your moment :)

Chris, I'm in San Diego. I'll post them tomorrow. :(
I saw the show. I loved it, even though Keith is wrong. Hank O'Day made the correct call. - Full disclosure: I'm a Cubs fan. :D
And their 105 years of bad baseball is not due to karma or curses, or anything but bad management. Okay, that Bartman thing could be curse-related.

By the way, how cool is it that Keith has the ball used to force out Merkle? :eek:

auggiedoggy 09-24-2013 10:37 AM

This isn't a sausage party!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1188289)
Merkle's boner doesn't compare to Lonnie Smith's in the 1991 World Series (Braves vs. Twins):mad:

Oh, so now we're comparing boners? :eek:

How about this Jose Conseco assisted home run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLs0pjWnzTY

Not an historic, game-changing boner but certainly one of the funniest.

T206Collector 09-24-2013 11:25 AM

I'd love a signed T206 of Fred Merkle. Gosh, who wouldn't?!

But until one is found, I will have to settle for my signed T206 of Al Bridwell, who later said he wished he never got that hit because it ruined poor Fred Merkle's life....

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jJLdZVuMALteZkQGCLxrHTiJm_Z5QsNdec5_I7WHZRE?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5Itmv8JlHkQ/UhAd7Asj34I/AAAAAAAATgs/5xPc-G8CZNQ/s800/Bridwell_No_Cap_SGC_Auth.jpg" height="648" width="800" /></a>

GasHouseGang 09-24-2013 11:39 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I thought it was interesting how Evers never would have gotten that call from the ump if the identical situation hadn't occurred earlier in the season setting the stage for the call to be made by Hank O'Day. Good excuse to show off the Evers I just picked up.

Exhibitman 09-24-2013 11:52 AM

"Keith Olberman on Fred Merkle's boner"

That is so wrong...As was this card:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...rd%20Boner.jpg

And yes, as my wife frequently observes, I do have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old.

Peter_Spaeth 09-24-2013 12:41 PM

There is an interesting write up of the incident in the great book "The Celebrant."

Runscott 09-24-2013 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1188289)
Merkle's boner doesn't compare to Lonnie Smith's in the 1991 World Series (Braves vs. Twins):mad:

That reminds me of my first visit to a nude beach, but Merkle's was more embarrassing...probably.

andy 09-24-2013 01:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
T206 Evers portrait from a Cubs fan.

MMarvelli 09-24-2013 01:14 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hank O'Day 1922 Press Photo (Sun and NY Herald Syndicate)

Attachment 115394

CardTarget 09-24-2013 01:39 PM

This just happened in the minors in July:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fr8mjRo544

Edwolf1963 09-24-2013 02:02 PM

1.5??
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang (Post 1188405)
I thought it was interesting how Evers never would have gotten that call from the ump if the identical situation hadn't occurred earlier in the season setting the stage for the call to be made by Hank O'Day. Good excuse to show off the Evers I just picked up.

How did that E98 Evers get a 1.5..? Beautiful front for sure!

mattsey9 09-24-2013 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang (Post 1188405)
I thought it was interesting how Evers never would have gotten that call from the ump if the identical situation hadn't occurred earlier in the season setting the stage for the call to be made by Hank O'Day. Good excuse to show off the Evers I just picked up.


And after Evers, who was a player/manager for the Cubs by that time, was shipped off to Boston guess who Chicago hired to be their new manager?

Hank O'Day

GasHouseGang 09-24-2013 02:28 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963 (Post 1188458)
How did that E98 Evers get a 1.5..? Beautiful front for sure!

You're right Ed, it's a beauty. Unfortunately just a bit of paper loss on the back makes the technical grade correct. Here's the back.

Big Ben 09-24-2013 03:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)
That was a great segment by Keith last night. My first T206 card was this Fred Merkle that I purchased at an antique shop years ago for $2. I had no idea who Merkle was at that time, but that purchase led me to do some research where I found the story about the "Merkle Boner". I wish that I had run across more T206's back then. I am also posting a T205 Evers with hopes that this Cubs fan can reverse the curse. (somehow) :)

Edwolf1963 09-24-2013 05:47 PM

Evers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang (Post 1188473)
You're right Ed, it's a beauty. Unfortunately just a bit of paper loss on the back makes the technical grade correct. Here's the back.

Wow, not a lot at all. David, that is one beautiful (and truly undergraded!) card!

xcgrammer 09-24-2013 06:23 PM

I am actually going to the Cubs game tomorrow with my Dad. We will probably go to Merkle's Bar which is a bar and grill in Wrigleyville. Great burgers on game day... 6 bucks comes with fries and the fries are awesome!!!

conor912 09-24-2013 06:36 PM

of course Keith would have the actual ball.....

t206blogcom 09-24-2013 07:13 PM

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/u...edmont-150.jpg

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/u...nt-350-460.jpg

the 'stache 09-24-2013 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1188289)
Merkle's boner doesn't compare to Lonnie Smith's in the 1991 World Series (Braves vs. Twins):mad:

Kevin, refresh my memory please. I watched the series, but don't remember that particular play. I could just look it up, but I'd rather hear it from a fan's perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat (Post 1188302)
You can also listen to Fred Snodgrass' account of the incident in the audiobook "The Glory of Their Times". Snodgrass sticks up for Merkle, stating that in those days, the umps opened the gates so spectators could get on the field immediately after the game. He states this was the reason Merkle ran to the dugout after McCormick crossed the plate.

Listening to the ball players relate stories in the 1st person, brings the accounts to another level. You really get a feel for what a joker Chief Myers was, how Hans ("Little Hans") Lobert was taken under the wing by Honus Wagner or how Rube Marquard hitched rides on rail road cars rode for 3 days for a shot at playing pro ball. One of my favorite stories was of Victory Faust and how he became the team mascot.

This is the only book I where I prefer the audio version over the printed version. You can hear the enthusiasm they had for early baseball.


Z Wheat

Keith touched on the fans rushing the field back then. I think Merkle got a bad rap. If I were a 19 year old kid in the Majors, and I knew thousands of rowdy fans were going to be running my direction, I'd get the hell out of there, too. It was the league's fault for allowing the fans to rush the field, not Fred's.

I'll have to check out that audio book. Good suggestion!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s (Post 1188306)
Just wanted to add my raw Merkle Port into the mix. Didn't see the show.

Beautiful card, Fred. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1188357)
Chris, I'm in San Diego. I'll post them tomorrow. :(
I saw the show. I loved it, even though Keith is wrong. Hank O'Day made the correct call. - Full disclosure: I'm a Cubs fan. :D
And their 105 years of bad baseball is not due to karma or curses, or anything but bad management. Okay, that Bartman thing could be curse-related.

By the way, how cool is it that Keith has the ball used to force out Merkle? :eek:

Sean, the call was right, absolutely. But like I said, I can't blame Merkle for getting the heck out of there.

We all need to go knocking on Mr. Olberman's front door. Maybe if we bad mouth ESPN enough, he'll let us in to see his collection. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy (Post 1188376)
Oh, so now we're comparing boners? :eek:

How about this Jose Conseco assisted home run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLs0pjWnzTY

Not an historic, game-changing boner but certainly one of the funniest.

Rob, I was watching that game when it happened. I was down in Houston at the time, watching it on the tube in my hotel room. I couldn't believe what I saw. I still can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang (Post 1188405)
I thought it was interesting how Evers never would have gotten that call from the ump if the identical situation hadn't occurred earlier in the season setting the stage for the call to be made by Hank O'Day. Good excuse to show off the Evers I just picked up.

That's a gorgeous card, and a perfect example of how a technical grade can be very misleading. There really should be a way of taking eye appeal into consideration when grading, but I suppose that's completely subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1188413)
"Keith Olberman on Fred Merkle's boner"

That is so wrong...As was this card:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...rd%20Boner.jpg

And yes, as my wife frequently observes, I do have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old.

It is wrong, Adam, lol. But I must admit, it is better than some of the alternatives I considered:

"Olberman revisits Merkle's boner 105 years later."
"Olberman waxes enthusiastically about Merkle's boner."

There's just no title I could come up with that wouldn't elicit a guffaw of some sort. As for the maturity level comment, I'm right there with you. :p


Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1188436)
There is an interesting write up of the incident in the great book "The Celebrant."

I'll seek that out, too, Peter. Thank you for the suggestion.

My reading list is becoming longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1188442)
That reminds me of my first visit to a nude beach, but Merkle's was more embarrassing...probably.

I guess it depends on your perspective, Scott. Were you a viewer, or a participant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy (Post 1188443)
T206 Evers portrait from a Cubs fan.

Great card, Andy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardTarget (Post 1188451)
This just happened in the minors in July:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fr8mjRo544

Wow, somebody on the other team was very quick thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Ben (Post 1188481)
That was a great segment by Keith last night. My first T206 card was this Fred Merkle that I purchased at an antique shop years ago for $2. I had no idea who Merkle was at that time, but that purchase led me to do some research where I found the story about the "Merkle Boner". I wish that I had run across more T206's back then. I am also posting a T205 Evers with hopes that this Cubs fan can reverse the curse. (somehow) :)

If you happen to have any old Milwaukee Brewer T206s, please post them as well. We're only at 43 years without a World Series title, but I'm getting up there in years, and I'd like to see the beer flow in Milwaukee before I croak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcgrammer (Post 1188549)
I am actually going to the Cubs game tomorrow with my Dad. We will probably go to Merkle's Bar which is a bar and grill in Wrigleyville. Great burgers on game day... 6 bucks comes with fries and the fries are awesome!!!

Jason, having never been to Wrigley unfortunately (hard to believe as I grew up in Milwaukee, and spent a lot of time in Chicago growing up), is the bar within the confines of the ball park, or just outside of it? Again, I could look it up, but it's always more fun to learn from somebody who has been there, and enjoys it. I hope you took some pictures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 1188551)
of course Keith would have the actual ball.....

As I said earlier in my post, Conor, I would kill to see his collection.

xcgrammer 09-24-2013 08:23 PM

Bill, it is actually just south of Wrigley about two blocks on Clark St. The logo is I believe from one of Merkle's card portraits, and they have several t206 cards framed on the wall and one larger one that is a blown up copy. I will see if I can get some pictures tomorrow and post them in this thread. Bill you really, really, should make it there to Wrigley, if you are a Brewers fan I bet you have been to old Comiskey from the Brew Crew's AL days, which I missed out on and kick myself over to this day although it was really out of my control since it was torn down when I was 10 years old. Two true cathedrals of baseball. Also the courthouse in my hometown Kankakee IL was designed by the architect who designed Wrigley and Comiskey, Zachary Taylor Davis who is known as the "Frank Lloyd Wright of Baseball."

the 'stache 09-24-2013 08:35 PM

That would be great, Jason, thank you.

If my back doc comes through for me, I'm going to take a trip back up north with my folks. I want to catch a ballgame at Miller Park with my dad. We'll also drive back down to Chicago, as we have family just outside the city. And I absolutely take in a ballgame at Wrigley (though I might just explode gorging myself on Chicago style hot dogs!). If I make it out of the ol' ballpark alive, then I'll check out Merkle's Bar.

There are three places I want to take in a game in my bucket list: Lambeau Field (I've flown over it, but have never seen the Packers there. I always saw them at the old County Stadium in Milwaukee when they played a few home games there each year). And then, of course, Fenway Park and Wrigley. In my opinion, those are the three Meccas in professional sports. Unfortunately, I never made it to old Yankee Stadium.

By the way, guys, I just wanted to say thank you. It's always interesting to me the direction discussions can go on Net 54, and this one is living up to expectations. In this case, the knowledge is just pouring out.

The suggested readings/listening are appreciated.

xcgrammer 09-24-2013 09:43 PM

Bill, you've gotta do it. Hope your back is fixed up soon. There is really nothing more American than baseball with your dad. Moments that you can't put a price on, worth whatever it takes to make it happen.

Mikehealer 09-24-2013 09:47 PM

Three Evers T cards.


http://photos.imageevent.com/mhgt/ho...-2%20Evers.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/mhgt/ho...-1%20Evers.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/mhgt/ho...20Portrait.jpg

slipk1068 09-24-2013 10:19 PM

History is not fair to Merkle
 
1 Attachment(s)
"The Unforgettable Season" is a book about the 1908 pennant race. It is written 100% from newspaper accounts of the day. Read that book and you will feel like you are living through the 1908 season.

Am I seriously the only person here who has read this book?

ZenPop 09-25-2013 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1188357)
Chris, I'm in San Diego. I'll post them tomorrow. :(
I saw the show. I loved it, even though Keith is wrong. Hank O'Day made the correct call. - Full disclosure: I'm a Cubs fan. :D
And their 105 years of bad baseball is not due to karma or curses, or anything but bad management. Okay, that Bartman thing could be curse-related.

By the way, how cool is it that Keith has the ball used to force out Merkle? :eek:

LOVE Keith's show and that clip was AWESOME! THANK YOU for posting, Bill!

Sean has generously provided me with an awesome book called "The Unforgettable Season" about that year and I'm just starting it now... (CHEERS, SEAN!!!)

Even though I'll probably disagree with Sean's O'Day call, I'm going to love this book! ...but remember... NO SPOILERS!!! ;)

ZenPop 09-25-2013 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipk1068 (Post 1188639)
"The Unforgettable Season" is a book about the 1908 pennant race. It is written 100% from newspaper accounts of the day. Read that book and you will feel like you are living through the 1908 season.

Am I seriously the only person here who has read this book?

Oops, Slip! Only read your post after posting that one! That book has been read by Sean... and is currently being read by yours truly!

slipk1068 09-25-2013 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenPop (Post 1188652)
Oops, Slip! Only read your post after posting that one! That book has been read by Sean... and is currently being read by yours truly!

Awesome John, you will love it. I found it somewhat tough to get started because of the florid language that was used back then but once I got into it, it was like going back in time.

Sean 09-25-2013 08:26 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I want to begin by saying: Mike, that Evers/ Hindu is one heck of a card.

Okay Bill, since you asked us to post Merkles, here they are:

Attachment 115452

Attachment 115453

Sean 09-25-2013 08:28 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Attachment 115455

Attachment 115456

Sean 09-25-2013 08:29 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Attachment 115457

Attachment 115458

Sean 09-25-2013 08:31 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Attachment 115459

Attachment 115460

Sean 09-25-2013 08:35 AM

Okay, so for the two or three members who haven't already seen them, I hope you like the set. :)

And for the rest of you: I'm still missing the T213 Type-3 and the Red Cross, so if anyone wants to sell them at an exhorbitant price, you know where to reach me. :D

ullmandds 09-25-2013 08:44 AM

Wow, Sean...can't be many runs out there that include t215 pirates...good luck on the last 2...they'll come someday.

the 'stache 09-25-2013 10:36 AM

Holy God, Sean. Count me as one of the three people that hadn't seen it yet.

What an incredible collection. Thank you for sharing. I'm glad I asked. :D

mattsey9 09-25-2013 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1188700)
Okay, so for the two or three members who haven't already seen them, I hope you like the set. :)

And for the rest of you: I'm still missing the T213 Type-3 and the Red Cross, so if anyone wants to sell them at an exhorbitant price, you know where to reach me. :D

Seen 'em before, but always enjoy looking at them. Thanks for posting them again, Sean.

mattsey9 09-25-2013 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenPop (Post 1188651)
LOVE Keith's show and that clip was AWESOME! THANK YOU for posting, Bill!

Sean has generously provided me with an awesome book called "The Unforgettable Season" about that year and I'm just starting it now... (CHEERS, SEAN!!!)

Even though I'll probably disagree with Sean's O'Day call, I'm going to love this book! ...but remember... NO SPOILERS!!! ;)

What struck me about the Giants outrage is that making the claim is something McGraw would have done in a heartbeat if the roles were reversed. He was an old Baltimore Oriole, and those guys used every trick in the book to win a game.

tbob 09-25-2013 01:38 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I love KO's new show, watch it every night.
Obviously Keith read Gordon Fleming's and Lawrence Ritter's book The Unforgettable Season which is THE best account of the 1908 season and thoroughly covers the Merkle Boner game through all the newspaper accounts of the day.
Interestingly, Christy Mathewson swore absolutely to anyone who would listen that he saw Merkle touch second base. The Christian Gentleman lied to support his teammate. Merkle never made it even close to the bag. On the flip side, the ball KO has may really be the ball Evers tagged the bag with while holding, but the original batted ball, according to many witnesses, was ultimately recovered by third base coach Joe MicGinnity who threw the ball in to the stands because he knew exactly what Evers was trying to do. The infield and outfield were a madhouse because of the many thousands of fans who poured on the field to celebrate the great win (they thought).
Fred Bridwell later said that he wished he had struck out (he singled in the winning run) and spared Merkle a life of infamy.

CaramelMan 09-25-2013 01:52 PM

...
 
no love for the T201?

Sean 09-25-2013 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattsey9 (Post 1188766)
What struck me about the Giants outrage is that making the claim is something McGraw would have done in a heartbeat if the roles were reversed. He was an old Baltimore Oriole, and those guys used every trick in the book to win a game.

It's true, McGraw is considered a great manager because he looked for, and in some cases created, any possible advantage for his team. But the one time the tables are turned the Giants never stopped complaining. Some like KO are still doing it to this day. :rolleyes:

tbob 09-25-2013 02:10 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Fred Merkle, a rookie, only started one game all year, this one. Regular first baseman Fred Tenney had lumbago and did not start this one game. It should be pointed out that Merkle years later ended up being the captain of the Giants and had a decent career. Merkle did nothing that other players didn't do at that time, but he was forever taunted by fans, media and others as "Bonehead" Merkle.
Fred Snodgrass in a Game 7 of the World Series years later, dropped an easy fly ball in the 9th inning against the Red Sox. Snodgrass was an excellent defensive outfielder and later that inning made a tremendous catch of a line over his head but when the Red Sox rallied to win, Snograss was the goat. In his obituary some 70 years later, it said "Fred Snodgrass dies, muffed fly ball in Series."
Both played for John McGraw who also witnessed the famous 9th inning foul pop which Chief Meyers muffed when he thought Matty was going to take it which resulted in Mathewson being denied a 7th Game win and a championship. The Giants were truly cursed....

slipk1068 09-25-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1188796)
It's true, McGraw is considered a great manager because he looked for, and in some cases created, any possible advantage for his team. But the one time the tables are turned the Giants never stopped complaining. Some like KO are still doing it to this day. :rolleyes:

Well lets be fair. Nobody touched 2nd base in those days when the game was over, and I mean NOBODY. Merkle suffered because the fans pour onto the field after every the game to exit the park in center field. Game was over, and it is VERY LIKELY the ball Evers touched 2nd base with wasn't the same ball.

Should have been a memo sent to every team beginning in 1909 that this rule will be enforced.

Sean 09-25-2013 02:33 PM

It is certainly fair that Merkle not be blamed for doing something that was common practice at the time.
My objection is toward the Giants and their fans who can't accept that they lost because Johhny Evers found a way within the rules to get an advantage on them. Evers was the first to think of this technicality, but that doesn't make it a new rule or even a new interpretation. The rule had never been enforce in a manner inconsistant with this result. No one had noticed that a run could be prevented in this manner prior to Evers figuring this out.
Evers simply came up with an idea within the rules. There is always someone who comes up with an idea for the first time. As an example, consider the double-switch. Someone was the first to use it. That doesn't make it unfair. That just makes this unknown (at least by me) manager very clever.I salute him the same way I salute Evers. They found a way to gain an advantage within the rules. Good for them. :)

slipk1068 09-25-2013 03:00 PM

I wish the grounds crew ran on the field and gathered the bases and put them in the equipment shed. Then, Merkle is supposed to go in the shed and figure out which base is second base? Maybe he would touch all the bases in the shed just to play it safe? Hope he got in there before Evers who would also have to touch all the bases in the equipment shed. When does the game end? When THOUSANDS of people are pouring onto the field to exit the ballpark?

Yes good for Evers. Smart play which no doubt, McGraw would have done in a second if he thought of it and had the opportunity. It is very unlikely though that Evers had the game ball when he touched 2nd base. So when does the game end? Everyone thought the game was over except Evers and O'Day.

If this technicality was going to be enforced, it shouldn't have been done in such an important game without informing both teams. Let them know when they present the lineup cards before the game. I believe the NL and umpire O'day had it in for McGraw and the Giants. McGraw was hated by umpires and league officials. They found a way to punish the Giants and used it.

AWESOME Merkle collection BTW :D

slipk1068 09-25-2013 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbob (Post 1188801)
Fred Snodgrass in a Game 7 of the World Series years later, dropped an easy fly ball in the 9th inning against the Red Sox. Snodgrass was an excellent defensive outfielder and later that inning made a tremendous catch of a line over his head but when the Red Sox rallied to win, Snograss was the goat. In his obituary some 70 years later, it said "Fred Snodgrass dies, muffed fly ball in Series."

Sun was in his eyes. I believe McGraw rewarded him with a raise :)

Sean 09-25-2013 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipk1068 (Post 1188822)

AWESOME Merkle collection BTW :D

Thanks. You would never guess from all those that I'm a Cubs fan. ;)

xcgrammer 09-25-2013 06:44 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Bill here you go as promised. Great day today for a game, was an awesome day. Merkle's Bar. One the right side of the bar photos you can see the T cards. Couldn't get close, as they were behind the bar. Looked like two T206 and a T205.

ZenPop 09-26-2013 02:49 AM

Awesome to see those again, Sean... so, so cool!

And, even as a Giants' die-hard, I can see both Sean AND Slip's argument...

I'd never wish what happened to Merkle on anyone, though... Great thread and interesting ideas AND visuals! Cheers! (and I'm loving that book!!!!)

the 'stache 09-26-2013 04:08 AM

Thank you very much, Jason. :) I am about to crash out for the night, but I will enjoy looking those over later when I get up.

Have a good morning, everybody.

tbob 09-26-2013 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipk1068 (Post 1188823)
Sun was in his eyes. I believe McGraw rewarded him with a raise :)


Slip- actually Snodgrass never mentioned the sun. He was a class character and admitted he just dropped the dang ball, a catch he made 99.9% of the time. McGraw felt so sorry for him that he gave him a raise, just like he eventually made Merkle the captain of the team to show his support. McGraw, to others, could be a rowdy and mean jerk but at times Muggsy had a heart of gold toward his players. Most of his players loved him.

bmarlowe1 09-26-2013 07:58 PM

While I agree with both the kudos and sympathy directed towards Merkle, I’m less than impressed with Olbermann’s hyperbolic rant.

With respect to the Sep. 4 Cubs-Pirates game, he says that Gil ran to the outfield clubhouse to get away from fans – as if he knows this for sure. It’s possible, but I don’t think we know that for sure. Considering the mere 3-4 seconds or so it takes to run from 1st base with a leadoff to second base, I’m not convinced. If fans were a problem, it seems like running back to the dugout would be a better choice than heading for the outfield clubhouse. Was this a factor for Merkle – who knows? Snodgrass much later claimed it was, but I wouldn’t call him an unbiased observer.

There was no mention of Pulliam’s decision on the Cubs official protest of the Sep 4 game (the Doc Gill game). Umpire O’Day said that in that game, he did not see Evers touch second while holding the ball, therefore the run counted. Pulliam’s decision on the protest supported the umpire stating that only O’Day could say whether or not there was a force out of Gill at second base – other witness evidence could not be considered. He went on, “The umpire in this case, by allowing the winning run, ruled that there was no force at second, because if there had been the run would not have scored.” Pulliam has been criticized for not further emphasizing this last critical point which is generally claimed to have been counter to usual practice – though I wonder how often it actually came up.

Oblermann drones on, “..changing the rules in the middle of the game – that’s what the Cubs did to Fred Merkle.” That’s just ludicrous. The Cubs did nothing to Fred Merkle. Evers made a smart play on Sep 4, and an even a smarter play on Sep 23.

In any case – even if Pulliam would have decided in favor of the Giants, that doesn’t mean the Giants would have won the pennant. Everyone’s mindset after that point would have been different, and all subsequent game results would be up for grabs. Though Merkle would have been spared decades of unjustified ridicule, the end result of the pennant race in that case is not knowable.
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slipk1068 09-26-2013 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbob (Post 1189186)
Slip- actually Snodgrass never mentioned the sun. He was a class character and admitted he just dropped the dang ball, a catch he made 99.9% of the time. McGraw felt so sorry for him that he gave him a raise, just like he eventually made Merkle the captain of the team to show his support. McGraw, to others, could be a rowdy and mean jerk but at times Muggsy had a heart of gold toward his players. Most of his players loved him.


Just reread the Fred Snodgrass chapter in, "The Glory of Their Times." You are correct no mention of the sun. I know I read it somewhere that the sun was involved in that play. I may have read it in John McGraws book, "My 30 years in Baseball," but gotta go with Fred's own words. I guess the sun wasn't a factor.

I always thought of Billy Martin as being a modern day John McGraw. Both were hated by umpires, league officials, opponents, short tempers, would fight with anyone, did anything to win. Both knew which players they needed to ride and which players to lay off of. TOTAL players managers, would stick up for their players unless they made mental mistakes.

the 'stache 09-26-2013 11:14 PM

Great pictures, Jason. Wow. They make me really want to get to Wrigley now.

Do you happen to know the significance of the dollar bills plastered to the wall at Merkle's Bar?

PolarBear 09-27-2013 01:05 AM

The Cubs were asking that an existing rule be enforced, as they had done earlier that season, and were not as KO says "changing rules in the middle of the game". A fact he should have been well aware of since he quoted the rule repeatedly (rule 59), earlier in his own monologue.

PolarBear 09-27-2013 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipk1068 (Post 1188639)
"The Unforgettable Season" is a book about the 1908 pennant race. It is written 100% from newspaper accounts of the day. Read that book and you will feel like you are living through the 1908 season.

Am I seriously the only person here who has read this book?


I've read it, and it's a solid effort. However, Cait Murphy's Crazy '08" is a far superior book about the 1908 pennant race. Her wit and irreverent humor make for a far more interesting account.

Tabe 09-27-2013 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolarBear (Post 1189332)
I've read it, and it's a solid effort. However, Cait Murphy's Crazy '08" is a far superior book about the 1908 pennant race. Her wit and irreverent humor make for a far more interesting account.

I second the love for Murphy's book. "Crazy '08" is fantastic, a really great read.


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