Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but
 

First the bid history

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=380705786534

Then the bidder



Bid History: Details



Bidding Details


Bidder Information
Bidder: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1965 Topps #350 Mickey Mantle HOF New York Yankees PSA 8 NM-MT CENTERED
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 34
Items bid on: 12
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 79% Help
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 23


But I am sure Rick will clean it all up.

LOL also looks to have been bid up to $995 by another "real" bidder-

s***o ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 22
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Forward this information to the winning bidder...

In no way is shill bidding acceptable or should be condoned.
I just wonder how Rick is supposed to:
a-know about everyone that happens
b-stop it
when
c-he is running, per an email I recently had with him, 1 million worth of auctions a month

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

Stop now, you're making too much sense.

Then explain how someone who runs the enormous amount of auctions he does can combat shill bidding?
Ill wait for a while because I'm not sure you nor anyone else can figure out how he can.

Agreed, and if he's pulling in that much $$$, he damn sure can afford to pay people to come up with solutions.

these numbers get sillier and sillier every time they get communicated.

so now he does 12 million dollars a year on ebay?

kevin

Again
How would you begin to combat the issue?
And I would dare say its an issue with any large consignment seller or auction house.

Has 1milliom in sales a month. Gross. Not net.

I'll tell you one thing he can do. He can block shill bidders when the evidence is pointed out to him. He can also block them as consignors. I guess money trumps that though, right?

Besides, it's not anybody's responsibility to explain to Rick how to stop shill bidding on his auctions. He's the owner, it's his responsibility. And the excuse of time constraints, ignorance or anything else for that matter is not valid.

Last PSA 8 sold for $1125 by PWCC. We all know how strong his prices bring....Our do we??

5 retractions on the card now.

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,136.00
Bid: Aug-27-13 16:42:18 PDT
Retracted: Aug-27-13 17:05:33 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,221.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:04:21 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:05:55 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,219.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:07:17 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:23:41 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,211.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 16:22:45 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 16:24:08 PDT
Member Id: m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

I agree he can block it when brought to his attention. Hopefully he will, is, and does so in the future.

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

I think it is all of our jobs to help clean up and preserve this hobby of ours.

Please don't take my comments as being accusatory or combative. They are neither. I haven't posted here much because I'm newer to cards. But this topic and the one you and others were discussing earlier last week is very much like a topic that was of enormous importance in comics starting about 8 years ago when such things as trimming, pressing, CPR (crack press and resub) online sellers shenanigans etc came to light. I was on the front lines then and so I have some knowledge of what is appearing to be brought to the front via this board.

Then someone needs to bring it to Ricks attention.
And eBay as well. Although with eBay Im not sure if they would ban that ID.

No need to wait. You ask consigners to sign an agreement that says if the shill the auction that he will refund the bidders money past the first bid from the consigner and charge them full commission on the auction. Then they will be banned from bidding or consigneing to his future auctions. And yes he is large enough and this is important enough that he or one of his employees should look at each auctions results.
If enough shill bidding could be proved to EBAY they would have no alternative but to ban him from their site. Then everybody loses. But he has to run a fair site if he cant then ultimatly he will lose the ability to run his business on EBAY.
Based on the information posted here I would never consign or bid on any of his auctions and I am not happy saying that because I have things to sell and he gets decent prices, and many times he posts items that I would like to own.

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

Fair enough points and well explained.
I don't think Rock is involved in the shilling. I do hope it can be addressed.

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

Sarcasm, correct?

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Of course.

At the risk of arguments, I don't know how in the hell this card can sell for close to $1500. There has got to be some ideas among the many, brilliant minds on this board. What exactly is going on, and why?? Why cant more coarse consequences take place?

I disagree. Talking about it let's others know about Rick's character and they can make up their own mind if they want to do business with him or not.

Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. Arex, what does that tell you about Rick's character?

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,436.00
Sep-02-13 18:13:34 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,411.00
Sep-02-13 18:48:23 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,361.00
Sep-02-13 18:46:28 PDT

Member Id: e***7( 1291Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $1,311.00
Sep-02-13 18:45:30 PDT

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,295.95
Sep-02-13 17:32:25 PDT

2 feeback guy ran him up as high as he could go, then retracted his bid at 1461. Nice.

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

I do not think he is involved either but he runs a business that has the potential to hide problems created by others. First someone who is banned from Ebay can consign with him they do not have to go in front of the rest of Ebay with their Feedback score. They go in front of the Ebay world with His feedback score. Second is the problem being discussed sellers or friends of sellers can run up bids. There are ways to track this by using stats to look at bid patterns for bidders who bid on specific peoples consignments etc. etc. But like another member said not my business to solve his problem..But have no doubt there are ways to solve it. He has 12 million reasons to solve this quickly.

Why are you defending Rick? You're right, nobody realistically expects him to have the resources to research each and every auction. But he does nothing when it's pointed out to him. How can you defend that???

Again, Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. I'll ask you the same question, What does that tell you about Rick's character?

Because it's been called to his attention time and again here and on CU. And what is he, the CEO of Microsoft that his business is so big he can't possibly know what's going on? Please.

Why would they ever try to fix something that generates more $$$ for them at no risk?

Way too much smoke with this guy; it's really impossible to believe he's not either involved or purposely looking the other way. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

A recent sighting?

http://lamarzulli.files.wordpress.co...the-sand1.jpeg

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

Shills...
 

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Not when you can retract, Al. Then you can see how high the top guy is and push him up as high as he will go. That is not the same as a reserve.

Yeah I would not hold your breath...If eBay received enough complaints about the bid retraction history I am sure they would look into it and would apply pressure to sellers who are using or allowing this to take place.

Question for the lawyers...eBay earns a fee based on the final sale's price so if they look the other way on this type of shill bidding, if one were to sue could they be named in the suit? I figure for selfish reason they might want to step in and attempt to prevent this type of bidding activity.

.

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.


Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r ( 2026Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 405
Items bid on: 84
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 17% Help
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 22

Sure...but see my last sentence.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

I might have retracted one or two bids in fourteen years but I don't ever remember doing it.

The simple solution is that Ebay limits bid retractions. The answer is plain as day.

Ebay logic however, is not.

As a regular card buyer the only thing these "shill" threads has taught me is I will now NEVER buy from a consigner. I have in the past bought from Probstien, PWCC, ect...and now I just won't do it and have blocked all ebay accounts that take consignments. I do know what I want to spend on any given card as I do my homework, but why mess with this BS. So if those that take consignments continue to ignore these issues...the only reason I am even posting is to let them know there are folks out there that read this...and stop buying. Address the issue...or continue to let good customers simply go away.

Here again - "Buy the card not the slab". I have seen tons of cards from Rick that look absolutely spot on for the grade (along with some that make you scratch your head). When I bid in an auction - 9 times out of 10 I will bid the max amount that I am willing to pay for the card - as my 1st bid. If I win then great - if not I don't normally get caught up in any bidding wars. To make a "blanket" statement that you won't buy from this or that person - is pretty much throwing in the towel. If a graded card looks like the grade to me - then I am good to go. Just my .02 worth..............

My point is: where did these numbers come from? if they come from him, i would seriously start doubting the validity of the math.

Kevin

Unfortunately, with the invention of "photoshopping", the old theory of "buy the card not the slab" doesn't always work anymore. Sellers are manipulating the scans and most sellers will not accept returns on graded cards...

I also don't ever recall retracting a bid in my 14 years of eBay activity.

Consign some cards, it's never too late.

If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

I’ve never understood that mentality either. If the item is shilled, but doesn’t go above the maximum that someone is willing to spend, they don’t care? I don’t buy that. The mindset “As long as it doesn’t exceed my maximum” is not logical. It’s basic human nature to try to get things as cheaply as possible.

If you go to the car dealership with your mind made up that you’re not going to spend over $30K and the car you pick out has a sticker price of $29,995, do you still not haggle and try to get them to come down from the sticker price? Sure you do.

Normally sellers shill in order to make sure they get every last penny that you are willing to pay. If they try to get more, they end up selling to their own shill i.d.

But in the case of a few famous/infamous ebay auctioneers, I believe the shilling actually creates a feeding frenzy, resulting in prices that are sometimes higher than market value. Over time a feeling grows in the collector community (among some, but not all) that the auctioneer in question has superior goods, which only exacerbates the 'problem'.

Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. Given that ebay gets a cut, I would not expect it to ever stop;if anything, ebay will simply implement additional policies to cover up our ability to prove that anything illegal is going on.

I think there are a few people who thought it was an effective model that wish they hadn't. Hopefully there will be more that wish they hadn't also.

David and David, everyone cares about getting cheated out of money, but since we are certain it occurs with many/most auction houses, then we have two choices: we put in the bid that we are willing to pay, and if we pay less, that's great, and if we suspect there are issues, we let them know. Or we refuse to bid with any auction house that we suspect shills.

I have elected to put my bid in and not worry too much about it unless I see evidence of a problem. There is only one auction house where I have recently been paying my high bid for every single item. Because of this, I might very well quit doing business with them. I contacted them about the issue and did not get a straight-forward answer, but I really didn't expect to. I just wanted to let them know that I felt I was possibly getting screwed. I will probably throw a few bids in for odd items in their next auction, and then report the problem here on this forum if the evidence is compelling. If either of you have a better idea, please let me know - I'm all for helping wiping out auction corruption.

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

That's a rational thought, but often times a collector's emotions will dropkick his rationale and leave it for dead during the auction process.

My post was only a response to those who on occasion post "I have no problem with with me being shilled, because I got the card within my price range."

John, I do the same thing. This means it potentially takes me longer to find items I want, but I'd rather wait than even deal with this BS.

2 retractions in 10+ years each retraction was because of my clumsy typing i.e. entered 1000.00 vs. 100.00 or something. After each retraction I reentered my bid on the item….

But Al, it may mean little to you as a buyer from a practical standpoint, but potentially a lot from a monetary standpoint.

I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list.

That tendency is an epidemic in this hobby (me included).

shilling
 

This is a good reason to disregard VCP prices. They are a joke. Pay what you think the card is worth and that's all!!!!

None for me in 13 years, but I did once bid $900 instead of $90. Luckily no one else accidentally bid $800.

Another bidder with mistake prone fingers, I guess.

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: j***a( 203)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Dan-Dee Potato Chips Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 2
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 174
Items bid on: 41
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 45%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 13

Interesting that you will see more of these people with lot of bid retractions in the big auction going on eBay now. Just put a "Buy it now" & take offers rather then shill bidding.
It's frustrating with no real end in site.

1960 Clemente PSA 7
 

PSA 7 1960 Clemente - a $125-$150/card shilled up to $400+

http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/c...ps48740b4d.png

Intended or unintended, this is the pun of the day (well, the previous September 4th).

I think this one shattered a world record.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=141072272076

No bid retractions here
 

I mever nake mistakes.

LOL, PROBSTEIN strikes again ! why do legit bidders still bid on his auctions ?

this is exactly why he stays in "business". I put the word business in quotes , because he doesn't run it like a business should be run. If it was his primary source of income and he depended upon it he would make damn sure no shill bidding took place. there would be no need to question how he could possibly track all those bidders, because it would be part of his business plan. he would have employees and measures in place to track all auction activity ALL the time. has anyone ever contacted the prosecutor in the county where he does business ? I would be curious to hear about anything like that happening and any results of such conversations.
( this is assuming he is an honest businessman)