Talk about an amazing ROI
 

Bought for $108 on CC http://www.myccsa.com/lot/242/lloyd-...-postcard.aspx

http://www.myccsa.com/pics/242/355397.jpg


Resold on Huggins & Scott for $3,000

http://s01.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...id=270&lotno=0

Holy cow someone did good lol

So I have a question... I was just looking at the Coach's Corner website, and they seem to have a lot of very rare items up for auction that are in very good condition. Does anybody find this a bit questionable?

It's not questionable. It's all fake.

Um, yeah... ;)

Odds are they trip over a good one every once in awhile.

Does Coach's Corner occasionally have real stuff sprinkled in with all the fakes or is this a fake that got past JSA and Huggins and Scott? Who would consign a real Lloyd Waner signed Perez postcard to CC knowing you would get less than 10 percent of its value?

I would answer yes to both. Just my opinion.

i also believe CC would consign any good item(s) they have to a legit AH.

Agreed. Everything on their site is assumed to be fake, and prices reflect that attitude. They realize that as well as anyone.

So someone got a real thing for cheap and made $$$ or someone paid a lot for a fake. I am not too familiar with this item.

EDIT: Ok, I think I will answer my own question. The guy seems to buy it then got it authenticated at jsa and made bank. Good for him.

I think in this case JSA was an unknowing conduit for allowing a fake autograph to officially enter the market. Kinda like money laundering. JSA didn't even know they were partaking in this little activity. Somebody should contact JSA and Huggins to let them know and hopefully they will take the item back and destroy it. Somebody just paid 3k for something that is most likely fake.

Remember, we are talking about JSA here.

If they were aware of the place it came from what is the percentage of chance it would have passed JSA?

answer - you know the answer. That's why it's hardly considered an authentication vs. the old saw "where did you get it?"



imagine at a show:

authenticator: where did you get it?

collector - "coaches corner"

authenticator: ________________





now what is the authenticator going to say?
we know what he is going to say.

JimStinson
 

Reminds me of the great Harry Houdini ! Turn a rabbit into an elephant and then turn the elephant back into a rabbit again. So convincing that you have to remind yourself it didn't really happen , it was just an illusion
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JimStinson
 

In this case it appears the Elephant is patiently waiting to be turned back into a rabbit again
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I would not be a buyer of that card at $100.

I am confuse. That card is fake, but jsa put their sticker on it?

Third Party Authenticators make mistakes ......

Yea, you can make a mistake but there are only about three Waner'sknown to exist this become's a really really big one. :rolleyes:

JimStinson
 

+1 or...don't attempt to drive a Ferrari with a "learner permit" :D
Requires a second more experienced driver in the car at all times
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JimStinson
 

When Ricky gets home Lucy is gonna have some "SPLAININ" to do
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consignor got their money, H&S got their commission, JSA got their fees...everyone happy. poor winner hope he finds this thread in time.

I brought one of my items into JSA and was told that it needed further review since not all of the authenticators were present. Apparently, 7 people needed to look at the item and 5 had to say it was good. I wonder how many thought this Waner was authentic.

The 5th guy is back, and he says it is good.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-auh8-omG14...1600/pic_2.jpg

7 people have to look at it? They got 7 people at shows? they run three shows simulataneously, they got 21 people out on the shows at any given time?

What would the winner do? They bid on a signed card that JSA certed. I'm sure H&S will deliver exactly that upon payment. Others can give opinions all day long, but JSA has given theirs and H&S will stand behind that.

The winner could certainly refuse to pay. All H&S could do is ban said winner from future auctions, no?

if the winner knows the history of the item i don't think he would pay. easy choice whether to be banned from an auction or save 3k.

I'm not going to get into if it is authentic or not. I was reading a thread on here about rare Petez Steeles and decided to google Waner to see images. Low and behold I found it at the two websites. I thought the hammer price was crazy until I saw one sold for over $5,000 at a Legendary Auction!

That is probably why this one got "signed"

wow

It's like GAI. There are alot of autos out there that aren't Williams, Mantle, or DiMaggio which are real with their cert on them. You just need to be able to pick between the good and the bad.

No, it's not like GAI. GAI had it's problems, but it wasn't an operation that was set up to knowingly move fake autographs.

Sorry, at the end that is exactly what they did.:mad:

As he stated, it wasn't set up for that, but in the end, someone's actions tainted a lot of good signatures merely because they have a GAI cert, not because they are not authentic.

I couldn't have put it any better myself.

If you rely on TPA's, then you admittedly have a better chance of buying something real if you go with JSA or PSA/DNA, as opposed to GAI. Is someone showed me a GAI-authenticated item that I was interested in, I would look, since there is a chance it could be real. If they showed me a CC item, I would laugh. If they were serious, I would lose respect for them.

I'm not a TPA guy, so my viewpoint is probably different from most peoples' in this forum.

The good signatures are still good. If you spot a GAI autograph that you are certain is good, you should be able to get it cheaper because the GAI cert lessens the value.

You are unlikely to ever see a CC autograph that you will feel is good - that's the difference.

I am wondering if the subject line of this topic could be slightly edited to say something like, "Very questionable Lloyd Waner" so the buyer would have a better chance of seeing this thread? Just a suggestion...

if you make the perez postcard into one of those stupid 1 of 1 limited editions, they go for 6000 apiece.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...0-%221-of-1%22

Coaches corner used to go to spence according to this article by ted taylor.

http://articles.philly.com/1998-04-3...ctors-collages

Travis, that's disturbing. The comment about Malack seems out of place in that article, but it makes since that the author would check out other autograph sellers in the same state as Spence, and maybe he didn't realize that CC was crooked. Also, it would have been in CC's best interest to try to tie themselves to someone legitimate.

Consider who you are quoting here.

I was relieved to see this was the entire item slabbed as a 1-of-1. When I first read your post my heart shipped a beat thinking someone may have actually made a cut out of a Waner PS.

My first thought too, along with "when" you are quoting. I don't know exactly where everybody in the story was when it was written, but it's not like that was written yesterday.

On a related note, how long has CC been around, anyway?

was cc set up to move fakes from the BEGINNING? if so why use spence. that is my observation.

Either it was a long time ago that they wanted to use spence and they didnt peddle fakes back then, or they did, but then why use spence? anyone?

I used to get SCD as a kid in the 80's and Coaches Corner has been around for as long as I can remember. I even won a few non-sport items from them, before I knew any better.

CC has always peppered their auctions with a few JSA and PSA authenticated items to try a legitimize the rest of their wares.

Whether they are items they were consigned from unaware collectors / estate managers or it was bad stuff they got by the TPA's, I don't know.

I know they have been around long enough and used to dominate SCD so thoroughly, they must have gotten SOME good items in from consignors who didn't know any better.

I believe we have a much higher percentage of knowledgeable collectors in this forum, than exists outside of this forum. Given that we still have a lot of people who read this forum and get duped anyway, you can extrapolate how much greater this problem must be elsewhere. CC is still in business for a reason.

JimStinson
 

Back to initial topic consider this ....Lloyd Waner was part of the 4th series in the Perez/Steele set which was issued in 1981 , the set was NOT popular at that time nor was collecting baseball autographs and its likely most of the cards did not end up in collectors hands until LATE 1981, Waner was dying of emphysema a slow death, finally passing away July 22nd 1982. So while its possible he COULD have signed a few of the cards its extremely unlikely, Maybe one or two slipped through , But the window of opportunity was SO small. From a human point of view a sick dying man would probably not have "answering fan mail" real high on his "Things to do" list.IMHO
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Absolutely. 1500+ lot auctions every month or so, even more in their SCD heyday. Casino gift shops and silent auctions on Cruise ships to fill up with material. Web sites full of bogus material popping up all the time. Local auction houses to bombard with "estate finds".

Impulse buyers everywhere. :(

A quick google shows three additional copies of this card signed by Waner. Maybe they are all bogus?

I received a reply from someone at Huggins and Scott that said they would look into it and take appropriate actions. I hope they reply to this thread to give an update, because actions speak louder than words.

It takes a lot more time and effort to do the right thing and refund the buyer the $3K and destroy this item then to just let a forged autograph enter the marketplace. If they don't do anything, I think somebody should contact a news outlet...

don't worry, haulsofshame is ready with the breaking news noise i'm sure.

Why should a news outlet be told? This is what you are supposed to do. If they don't do it. Then you tell the news. This should have been taken care of the minute they heard of it.
"We are looking in to it ". What a bunch of crap. What do they need to look into a crystal ball.:(

That's what he said.

This Waner is just another example of the state of this hobby - we rely on TPA's to do our thinking for us, assuming they have more skills than we do. First of all, they don't have the incentive we have to get it right - they can screw up and it's no big deal - very few repercussions, if any. Second, in many cases they actually do NOT have the skills that the prospective purchaser has - too many times we've seen examples of someone buying a forgery with a COA, then coming on this forum with it, already realizing that he's bought a forgery - you need to come to that realization before you buy the thing.

Enough people are still buying the COA rather than the autograph, to make it a profitable business to rush through authentications, attaching COA's to pure crap.

At some point I would like to see one of the respected auction houses like H&S say, "We are dropping xxxx - the quality of their authentication service does not fit well with the high quality product we are committed to delivering."

It will never happen. To many people have there money invested on the word of the big boys. If they get droped what do you think it would do to all the inventory that is out there. 1929 :eek:

I don't think TPA's will ever go away, and I regrettably feel that the quality of their work will remain at it's current low standard; however, I wouldn't be surprised if all the negative publicity regarding TPAs will someday result in some of the major AH's splitting from them. I think the first one to do it would immediately gain a lot of respect in the hobby. If enough of them did it, it might force the TPAs to re-think the quality of the work they provide.

it's the system in use right now and the tpa's are suppose to be impartial third party. I don't think we will see any of them dropped, the system is too lucrative right now, the customer demands it or so we think. There is an auction house owner as a member of psa, and that auciton house employs PSA services, so how does that work?

Things won't change because the general public sees or hears the words COA (it doesn't matter who issued it) and they think that it makes the item authentic.

The sad part about it is that there is a two party system abc, and xyz co. issuing certs for the auction houses and anybody else basically gets shut out no matter how good they are.

Good post. I'm not sure if it is yet worth it to an auction house to do this.

The big two get the prices. The other guys who are far and above them get crap.:mad: I know that even if Jim, Richard and others say it is good they still will send it to you know who. So the can sell it for a higner price.That is what is really sad.

I sold technology, hardware- software and services for over 20 yrs until last year. Ten or so years ago Dell always commanded a premium. Why? They didn't even build their computers and barely designed them. The answer- marketing. That is why, many times, things command a higher price when they are inferior or the same quality as other things in the same category.

Yes! This is a service just like any other. If you find a TPA's service to be substandard, don't use them.

Do these guys issue third-party TPAs?

They get to maintain their integrity and deal with knowledgeable buyers, but there is certainly a cost to them. I'm sure they can live with it.

I'm sure they can too and I'm not calling on anyone to do anything. But if someone comes on here and asks for opinions, gets a thumbs up from a respected member, what should they do when/if they want to sell, especially when a TPA has proven to raise the selling price? One thing that TPAs provide is a transferable opinion, even if that opinion is sometimes wrong. (See also numerical card grading for the same thing).

I am all for peace of mind for collectors, and there are many great ways to get this outside of lazily paying a TPA. But many posts, like the one I quoted, don't take all perspectives into view.

I was only answering the question as to why the TPA's get the money they do, it's because of marketing, imo.

Yes

I was refering to my quoting of shelly, not of you. You and I are in total agreement about this as marketing of a service. I think that many around here are very emotional about this hobby (which is generally a good thing and why we are here), which occasionally leads them to attach a greater importance to things than is rationally due.

The fact is that the alphabets render a service that people want, which is a transferable and marketable third party opinion.

Really? I honestly didn't know that, which surprises me as a longtime collector of high end autos. Do you have a scan or photo of such an authentication?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAMES-BUSTER...item19d114f1f1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stunning-Bab...-/300863191480

Wow, nice. Thanks for the links. The second one is clearly a TPA letter. The first one appears to be a witnessed signing? Not the same thing, but interesting nonetheless.

its just what came up when i googled "jim stinson coa" and "richard simon coa"

JimStinson
 

In answer to the above regarding my COA, My bill of sale IS a COA on everything I sell as its sold with a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. I used to issue formal COA's on all of the private signings I did back in the 1980's and 1990's only to document and prove the fact that the item/items were signed in person.

When I buy collections I NEVER ask for COA's but many times I ask the seller to reference a bill of sale to find out initial origin.

I've never offered a formal authentication service because well ....there are only 24 hours in a day and I stay pretty busy as it is AND I never felt comfortable charging money for an OPINION which in most cases is no more difficult to do than telling you what time it is if I had a wristwatch and you didn't.

But in the course of redesigning my new web site which is still being worked on I was encouraged to offer a quick opinion link which I'll be incorporating into the site soon. Since I'll be working from scans its not designed to be the last word and won't be able identify photo copies or laser copies but I think where collectors might find it helpful is in weighing a Jim Stinson quick opinion PRIOR to a purchase. And avoid having to chase the seller after the fact or better still if certain TPA's of your choice are part of your collecting format it will help save money in that it will eliminate having to pay top dollar for an item that is going to come back as fake or secretarial anyway.

More on this later regarding specifics when all systems are go. In the meantime questions and suggestions are welcome.
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Jim
 

I don't know you at all but I like the way you think. Wristwatch quote pretty good too..............

Wayne, I didn't really understand the post where you quoted me - I sincerely hope you don't think I was questioning what you said. I actually agree with everything you've stated, and was just adding to it when I said that the "Non Big 2" could live with the results that their integrity has 'cost' them (although I don't really think it has cost them much).

I completely agree that the 2 largest TPA's exist in their less-than-desirable form due to marketing (and I would add customer 'greed' in some cases) and the fact that they provide a service that a lot of people believe is accurate, but that is desirable to some, even if it is not accurate.

I would not compare them to card-grading. They aren't grading the items, they are authenticating them. There is a huge difference. Card authentication should really be close to 100% success rate, while grades are somewhat subjective. Autograph authenticity should not be subjective. If a TPA 'thinks' an autograph is 'probably' authentic, but their certainty is less than say 99%, then their COA should say so. For instance, the ones that we have stated here are definitely bad (like the Sonny Liston Travis recently posted) - there is no way in hell that the TPA could have been even 50% certain on that one. They should say as much in their COA. For instance: "autograph exhibits characteristics consistent with known exemplars, but appears to be signed rather than drawn, and Liston is known to have drawn rather than signed."

Call me emotional, but if I'm collecting something and have a lot of money tied up in it, and key players in my hobby are demonstrating the level of professional skill demonstrated by JSA and PSA/DNA, then you are damned right I am going to be emotional. They either need to clean up their act or go work at McDonalds.

Edited to change 'Louis' to 'Liston' - my bad

Jim is a professional in the truest sense of the word, as opposed to someone who is paid to do something that they are not qualified to do.

It's all good. My quoting of you contained responses pointed at others as well.

I only compare authenticators to graders in the sense that they provide a service that is marketable, meaning that in an massive marketplace like the Internet, they serve as a (ostensibly) disinterested third party to give opinions about merchandise, and these opinions stay with the item even as it changes ownership multiple times. That's all.

I also think that emotion is good, but the seemingly rising tide of incompetence displayed by these TPAs just really doesn't bother me that much. I don't send stuff to them. I won't buy anything with their sticker affixed, and I'm ready to trash certs or crack slabs if they fall away a la GAI. Short of that, I don't get all fired up about it. To some that apparently makes me a "supporter."

Nothing about what you wrote makes you look like a "supporter".

As a collector, I can't imagine sending anything to a TPA. If it wasn't real, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

JimStinson
 

Hey Guys Take it easy ! I have a parakeet and nothing fits the bottom of her cage better than a notarized COA
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