Increcible prices for PWCC auctions
 

Two people apparently would. This is higher than the two 88s reported by VCP, and more than double what the last 7 sold for. Guess the moral of the story is consign to PWCC?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-...p2047675.l2557

Any fishy bidding?

I shipped 7 cards to PWCC this afternoon. :D

Here's another odd comparison (although not preWWII...)

This PSA 8 Red Heart Mickey Mantle sold for $1252.

This PSA 7 example, with similar centering, sold for $1331.

As I guy who buys cards, I would.

If I was a guy who liked to buy slabs, I probably would not.

Doug

I wouldn't pay more for a 7 then an 8, and vice versa. :)

Maybe that's why I've never had an 8.

It all depends on the two particular cards.

If an undergraded 7 is nicer than an overgraded 8, then sure...I would pay more for it. After all, the grade is just an opinion.

Two different graders can have vastly different criteria when grading cards. It shouldn't be this way...but it does happen. Cards can also be damaged after grading.

In short, buy the card, not the holder.

I'd buy a 2-4 and put the money saved towards something more useful!

The cut on the top of the card looks suspicious, especially on the back side. It almost appears to be jagged. How in the world can this card bring $8200?

Me too. I made that decision right out of the gate when I first started collecting to go for cards that are decent but not usually high grade. More power to those that have so much faith in pointy corners.

Good question. Even as a killer 84 history would say it is worth half what it sold for. PWCC in general seems to get exceptional prices but this one struck me as particularly out of line.

The red heart mantle chuck posted makes no sense either, on a smaller scale.

Aaron RC 8
 

Not particularly well centered, but nevertheless a new world record for PWCC at least for reported VCP sales, besting the old record by over $1300 unless I missed something.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-H...p2047675.l2557

Time to consign it all?

Nobody cares apparently, but here's a major record-setter, at 1225 and not even closed yet with VCP average 500.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400448814894...84.m1438.l2649

Why are these prices going berserk? Is there that much to be said about PWCC that their prices realized are double VCP?. I'm having a hard time understanding all of this.

Dunno. Apparently whenever anyone tries to discuss this at CU it gets poofed.

Here is a good one. $2500 card. Sold for $5101.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

Probably safety bids that aren't really happening. My feeling has always been that ebay is a safe haven for people bidding on their own stuff that is consigned. And when the big sellers get told about it they sort of deal with it. (when forced) Just my opinion. I don't see a seller adding double the value to a fairly common card...but maybe I don't know the value they provide. :eek:

If these are true bids I'm going to send him a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 3 soon:)

The two highest bidders on the 1975 Brett have a decent percentage of their bids with PWCC and both have multiple retractions to their credit.

shill bidding, unrealistic bid levels
 

I don't think it is a wild shot in the dark to strongly believe some consignors are running up bids on their cards, either by themselves or by "friends"...many of these cards garnering outrageous bids are nothing "special" for the grade, and are often available for considerably less as a BIN on Ebay...I have been told in years past by auctions houses (who wanted my consignments) that they would "make sure" that the bids on my cards would reach a "safe" level. Bidders have to be careful, not get involved emotionally in the bidding process, and stick with their own ceiling, and understand these "practices" are rampant....but "overlooked" for the most part....Bruce Perry

Bruce, we could have a whole other discussion about the identity of some of those consignors, couldn't we? What a world.

Couldn't have said it better, I almost never go after "super high grade" examples of any card I want. Call me crazy but I actually prefer a little "aging" to my vintage cards ;)

By coincidence, I just won a couple lots from PWCC on eBay. Prices were good and well under my snipe bids (which were based on VCP records of recent past auctions).

Also, I spoke with Brent there on the telephone regarding shipping and he was very, very good to deal with - responsive and service-oriented.

Count me as a happy customer (and no other affiliation).

Cheers,
Blair

Blair, there is no doubt he is a good seller and gives great customer service. There is also no doubt that the majority of his auctions probably don't have consignors or friends of consignors bidding on their own items. It's hard to explain some of the other things we have seen though. And I will even add that my few experiences with his company have been the same as yours.

I concur. PWCC is one of the best. Always has great consignments and spectacular service. A credit to the hobby. Dave.

Prices going up
 

I have a run of Aaron's in PSA 8 and always keep an eye out for them.

I did bid on a handful of vintage Aaron's, with healthy bids, and won none.

The prices seem to have really jumped. Even with other ebay sellers, Aaron's and early Nolan Ryan's have have hit a new higher price level.

And a while back I posted about some T206's also going for more than expected prices.

Good signs for the hobby. After all, they aren't making any more of this stuff (supply) and demand seems to be high.

Would it concern you if (hypothetically) some of those consignments were from, shall we say, less than reputable sources? Just curious.

I don't think so, unless I suspected cards had been doctored.

LOLOLOLOLOL

As for these astronomical final bids on those auctions pointed out on the thread, assuming they are shilled or protected by the consignor can someone explain who on earth would shill or protect an auction to 50%, or more, over the last highest recorded sale on cards which are readily available? Not like consignors or those placing those bids know the ceiling bids or the bids that will be made by the eventual winner. Seems ridiculously risky to bid up something that high not knowing how high you can go. If these items are actually being won by real bidders then it is a real head scratcher.

As it is often hard to tell doctoring from scans, I personally am suspicious of cards from people widely thought to be card doctors whether or not I can spot obvious evidence of alteration. But whatever, that's just my personal preference.

Have a look at the bidding on this essentially worthless card . . .

This nonsense really needs to be cleaned up. Hopefully market forces will eventually trump ethics.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Topps-R...item20d0de2d00

With ebay turning a blind eye to bidding practices, nothing is going to happen. And with ebay sellers (not to mention auction houses) gladly taking major consignments from card doctors, nothing is going to happen on that front either. One has to just exercise one's judgment the best one can. Unless one prefers to see no evil hear no evil, which is fine too.

Another new world record (by a lot)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Topps-W...vip=true&rt=nc

response to scotgreb
 

Do you really think that someone with 1000 or so lots in an auction is going to screw around with shill bidding a $26 card? Perhaps a friend of the consignor did so at the consignor's request but why would he risk winning his own card and have to pay approx $8 in fees?? regards Bill

Bill-
I'm not sure I fully understand your comment. What makes you think the consignor has 1000 lots out there? -- this might be his/her only one (but probably 36 - see below). I'm not suggesting the consignee is doing anything other than turning a blind eye (as others have here and in other venues). This is simply the item that I stumbled on (as a Clemente collector) that is a perfect example of this becoming-all-too-common activity. I'm not certain of anything ... but those certainly do not look like bona fide bids. A 0-Feedback bidder who decides to make 85 bids on 36 unique items offered by the same consignee over a short period of time?

..and a card that typically sells for $10 all of the sudden sells for $26??
I guess I just don't understand how people can bypass numerous cheaper BINs just to bid something to a stupid high level. And if these items ARE INDEED being shilled, isn't there some fear of the consignor actually being stuck with the item and a huge bill? Does a consignor actually want to pay $5,000 for a card that might only bring $2,500 every single other time it goes up for sale??

PS - you forget this card. Went for double the average selling price. A new record high. I can see if the card was severly undergraded, maybe a '5' in a '3' holder. But this card is HIDEOUS. The centering is horrible on it. To be the record setting '3' that sold for DOUBLE Vcp average (VCP avg=$17. This card sold for $35)....I just don't see it...

http://host.jwcinc.net/712533/brent/2013_3/115_13_2.jpg

I agree with you Robert. Anyone could find a nicer Clemente for the same amount paid for that 3. That Clemente is rough.

That Clemente SHOULD NOT be the record setter!! You can get better looking cards TWO grades higher for less money!

On a side note, let me share my experiences buying and selling with PWCC. He is great! Never a problem. Now my consignments - some have been great, most have been average, some have set record lows. I have NEVER sold a card for double VCP average. Never had a head scratcher. Here is one of the creams of my last consignment.

Bobby Jones PSA 5. It looked like a 7/8. Obviously the best card in that grade. It sold for $787. All Star Cards paying $750 for that particular card in that particular grade. Ended up losing a couple hondo on it. I could have saved myself a hefty consignment fee just by selling the card to them. If ANY card should have been a record breaker, it should have been that one - not a fugly Clemente PSA 3.

http://host.jwcinc.net/712533/brent/2012_10/134_5_3.jpg

I don't get the surge on some of the cards. As a collector myself, I don't look at PWCC auctions anymore, as I feel there are no deals to be had there anymore. Apparently I am in a minority though, as he is obviously setting record prices. Are they real prices or is this MastoNet all over again? I don't know. Alot of people are taking notice, as there are MULTIPLE threads on the subject matter this very day.

I just got a holmes on holmes sgc10 chance for $130 from pwcc. I thoght that was a very good deal and pwcc was very quick on shipping. I think he has a lot of high enders following him and thus he gets pretty high prices on the high end stuff.

A $17 card sells for $35? I weep for our future.

VCP 475, recent sales in the low 400s. PWC 991. Must be that great service!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Topps-O...item5d3c9c02f4

New world record by a huge margin; if you take out PWCC's reported sales, only one of these ever went over ONE thousand. What's the secret?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

My opinion only and I've said this in the past. The sum of:

Card doctoring that gets by grader who are not very good + repeated submissions of cards until a dealer gets the grade they want + suspiciously high grades given to higher volume dealers + shill bidding in actions + buying the slab instead of the card = a huge bubble for high grade cards.

When this bubble eventually bursts, there's going to be a lot of unhappy collectors of PSA 8, 9, 10s. Don't be one of them.

jeff

Love PWCC auctions! Won this one the other night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140956616869

The underbidder bid $178 more than the bidder below -- and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions!

safety bid successful!

I know certain things sometimes go on in the hobby. But I have to say I've had some cards in the last B & L Auction with good results. I also had some cards in the last two PWCC Auctions. So far good results. A few cards went higher then I expected, but no shill bids by me or my friends. Many of the cards were mine from when I was a kid and later graded with no doctoring.
They were not PWCC cards. I'm sure I have high % with a few sellers as they seem to have cards that I'm interested and I keep returning to buy.
I know everything is not perfect as we would like it to be, but I felt I needed
to at least stick up for PWCC, so far, in my little corner of experience with them.

Charlie

I was lucky to purchase high grade Cobb cards in the 1980's.. I would not be able to afford such cards today.

Joe

I'm confused. Yes a 3 second shill is possible, but isn't this what happens when two people snipe bid in the same auction with a "gotta have it" mentality? Both bids within 6 seconds of the hammer. If the price is too high, aren't both parties equally guilty? Clearly the 3 second bidder, didn't know that a 6 second bidder was out there. Just a thought.

I agree Jeff. I do believe that high grades are given to higher volume dealers and I have my own experience to draw from in that respect. About two years ago I purchased a PSA 10 from an ebayer who deals in highly graded PSA cards. This dealer turns lots of PSA's in selling. This was a one of one, and I actually believe the price on the card was a mistake by the seller since the price was extremely less than the other one of's they were selling. The card I bought was an icon of the game. I checked PSA for the population and it was a one of. I had owned the card for about six months and checked the population report again, and to my surprise ANOTHER PSA 10 had been granted. This card was over 40 years old and out of the blue another 10? Sure enough the same seller had the same card again in a PSA 10. Three months ago I unloaded mine. That is why I always try to buy raw cards.

Do I smell class action?

Frank, I don't have a problem with two people putting a high snipe in -- it just seems bizarre that the underbidder only bids on PWCC auctions. And this isn't the first time such a thing has has happened in a PWCC auction. Or the second time. Or the third time.

Edited to add: this is not to say this is the auctioneer's fault -- it could be the consignor.

T206 Cobb
 

Did y'all see the Cobb that was tore in half and glued back together bring $415?

and he bid on just 5 auctions in the past 30 days, all in PWCC auctions! . . .

If you do any amount of research you'll find this is very common with PWCC auctions (and maybe other consignment sellers for all I know).

Some people care -- some people don't

http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/c...psd44f73f8.jpg

Some people know -- most people don't

Pwcc
 

I will NOT use them again as I don't bid on my consignments.

I'd like to hear from the consignors who DO bid on their own consignments.

Surely we have someone on this board who's brazen enough to speak up?

+1....

PWCC posted on CU recently in response to charges of scan manipulation.

"In particular, we are writing in response to baseless claims that we somehow are manipulating our scans. Such accusations are ridiculous and I ask that folks please remain substantive in their accusations of any company (not just PWCC). We are not altering our scans, in fact we go to great length to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible. Obviously, if we were altering images we'd have plenty of upset buyers... right? Aside from the obvious moral objection associated with this level of misrepresentation, the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagging. So even if you don't trust us personally, perhaps you can trust the practical impossibility of such an accusation."

I can't speak to intent, but PWCC's scans do not look realistic to me, they look thermonuclear.

Kind of hard to take a guy seriously who has so many obviously shilled auctions and claims a 'moral' objection to any fraud.

How the Hell do you "go to great lengths to make images as close to life-like as possible"?????? just do the scan and leave it alone!

This was my consignment, and I can promise that I did not shill or safety bid this card or have any of my friends do the same. Note that I also consigned this same card but in a different tint in a recent Goodwin auction, and I was also the consignor of the Wajos if this same issue that went in both this one and Goodwin.

Well, at least we can narrow down the guilty party to the auction house.

When a PSA 6 sells for as much, if not more than a PSA 8, it is mind boggling to me as well. Just a shred of research and a little common sense will tell you what a fair market price for a particular item is. When the above scenario happens though, it definitely smells fishy to me. This hobby has so many scenarios and sub-scenarios though - it would blow your mind if you knew everything that went on. I blame the almighty dollar....

You "blame the almighty dollar?" How about blaming the guy who was responsible for shill bidding?

For the card that I saw, the shill bid stopped at $33. There were still two other "sensible" bidders who bid it up past the PSA 8 level, totally ignoring the big coke spill stain on the back of the card.

And CalvinDog....not to be flippant or anything, but what do you think the shill bidder's motivation is? World peace??

Bobby, I'm more about blaming the shooter, not the gun. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

.....

Careful Jeffrey you will get yourself banned!!

Which is it? Manipulating scans to "to ensure the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible." or "the shear workload associated with having to manipulate scans would be stagg(er)ing."?

Intentional or not, the scans are hot. They sure don't look like factory default settings. And if someones job is ensuring "the images we provide are as close to life-like as humanly possible.", they aren't manipulating them properly.

Jim, you forget to mention the moral issues attendant to such manipulations.

Hmmm .... which scan probably looks more like the card?

I would think the auction house would have a lot more to lose should they win the item themselves and then have to relist it, than they would have to gain from a few extra dollars commission by bidding an item up to $400.

Also, if the auction house were doing the actual shill bidding here, and they have a habit of doing so, wouldn't they have specific accounts that don't have 100% bid activity with PWCC, so that this wouldn't seem like such "obvious" shill bidding?

I am not naive enough to think shill bidding and scan manipulations do not occur with regularity in this hobby. I just feel that now we've learned that the consignor (Gary) did not do the shill bidding on the postcard w/ Ty Cobb, this may just be a case of another collector driving the price up with a snipe.

Morality tells me the one on the left.

Not necessarily... if ebay isn't going to do anything about it, why bother trying to make it look less obvious

Again, the issue is not with the snipe -- it is with the fact that the underbidder (and many underbidders in PWCC auctions) is only bidding in PWCC auctions.

Bill Mastro's priest says the one on the left too.

I agree with Chuck. It would be hard to believe that AH's would be dumb enough to leave such an obvious trail if they were indeed shilling their own auctions. But then again, "dumber" things have happened.

Sigh.

Vcp
 

I wonder how much VCP has to do with these prices. Now I like VCP, and use it once in awhile. But once, when I was thinking about buying a SGC W511 Babe Ruth card, I checked VCP and the average price was around $300, and the card was going for about this. So I normally don't do this, but I checked the last sale of the card, and guess what - it was being sold by the same exact seller with matching sgc# for $331, which artificially pushed the price up (according to VCP) due to this previous "auction". So I am not sure if someone returned the cards or what, but the data was still registering on VCP, hence the higher price (I don't use VCP currently so I'm not sure what it would have been if this card did not "sell" previously for $300+).

Since then, this same seller has sold 2 more of the same card/different numbers. So if sellers knew how to play the game right, you simply drive up the "sold" price and make sure it registers with VCP, and then after that, the other cards you have in the same grade are worth that much. With out this bump, let's say that the VCP card is only worth $175, then all the rest of these cards will sell around that price since the last one sold was 2006 or so -

Just my two-cent conspiracy theory -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item589ba08f19

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item589d73a32e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-Bl...item589ecddd1c


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-W511-1-...item53f7c76390

Ask Mastro and Allen about leaving an obvious trail of evidence on their fraud....