Babe Ruth?
 

I'm curious what the members here think of this Babe Ruth?


Attachment 94111

Once again, no expert whatsoever, BUT I don't like the "e", and it looks like the "u" was done twice (the second part of the "u"). Like it didn't come up high enough, and they added some ink to the top. And the "h" is obviously atypical (but could be that way because it was signed in a hurry). I'd say 80/20 it's not good. For whatever it's worth...

I think Chris already knows the answer :D

Of course I do.

More games.
(And before you comment, no, I'm not gonna play.)

When a Kurt Cobain thread on a primarily sports autograph forum is the most interesting one, you know we're in trouble.

This is my concern.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...scott-auction/

My concern about the above Babe Ruth was relayed to Huggins & Scott a week ago.

I didn't think you would.

Didn't you write "Nice pickup. The autograph book looks good" on the below thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162167

As for my "Glass Houses" thread, it was meant for one person. I knew I'd be criticized for it. But it's what I do.

Chris,

What was Huggins response? I'd be hard pressed to believe that the stub is even real..

well, if you dont like the ruth, you got sgc to blame. you know, that company with tons of autograph authentication experience, authentication and slabbing autographs for 8 dollars apiece and they won't tell you who authenticates their autographs.

Mr. Root is a member here, why don't you invite him on this thread to explain this authentication? for the record, i am not a ruth expert so i dont have an opinion on this, but i am sure he will come right on here and he can explain it to your satisfaction.

so i guess sgc autograph authentication gets instantly listed now on auction sites? nobody else can get in but sgc now joins psa and jsa because they have so much experience authenticating autographs, a whole 8 weeks now?

For all the guys fighting their little personal wars on here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tCfFEMqgmQ;)

The Ruth auto has been certified by JSA and SGC. I don't know either way on the autograph itself, but the condition that stub is in raises suspicions to me.

I went to some of the NCAA games the other night and I don't think the corners on my tickets were that sharp prior to the games even starting...:(

why pick on an sgc encapsulated item when a jsa encapsulated item wouldnt get shown here even though root worked for jsa? as soon as he jumps ship and goes to sgc, then show the sgc item and say its bad? it has jsa loa but its slabbed by sgc and thats what people see. if it was jsa alone, then it wouldnt be shown here, i guarantee it.

why isnt jsa under the same scrutiny by some? the authenticator is the same, just different company. i guess some companies get protection and can do no wrong. root got thrown under the bus now that he doesnt work for protected company east coast anymore?

i am for treating them all equally, if its bad psa, jsa , sgc so what? i have never seen chris show a bad jsa item before, and he starts with a sgc slabbed item? now that it has a jsa loa, let's break precedent and chris can now start showing bad jsa items now. it's okay, we don't mind.

what did they say? nothing? why not? ask to be their babe ruth guy.

Travis,

In Chris' defense, the article he posted from Sports Collectors Daily mentioned nothing about the JSA letter. You have to actually go out to the Huggin's and Scott site to see that it has a JSA letter. Get all the facts before you attempt to start another one of "those" threads....

michael root is a net54 member, why try to embarrass him with this thread, chris?

i have been told for years to contact the companies and personnel behind the scenes and work with them to rectify any problem. why don't you just pm or contact Root and ask him about this autograph, instead of just trying to post it here and embarrass him and smear?

now that he is not jsa anymore, he is fair game now, like global? what's the deal? Why post this autograph as a setup and then knock a man down when Root is just trying to do the best he can. You could have contacted him privately and worked with him and huggins and scott and maybe come to a conclusion instead of airing out the dirty laundry here and try to embarrass the man.

And why don't you do that to Spence or Grad? Why just SGC?

James and all,
Interesting...

FWIW, I would not trust this to be a real Ruth 700th HR ticket.

I personally have not seen vintage Tigers tickets that have been stamped with a date. In fact, as a baseball ticket collector of over 40 years, I will tell you that I do not recall EVER seeing a Tigers stamped date ticket prior to 1969. I have, however, seen lots of emergency tickets like the one featured in this auction with designations like Game X, Game K, etc.

I do recall seeing a genuine printed date ticket to Ruth's 700th HR. At least one exists in the hobby. As I recall it has an uneven tear at the perforation, almost appearing to have a "fang" shaped tear....

Where did JSA cert that Ruth?

Go to the Huggins and Scott website and you will see the full LOA there from JSA. You can match the cert # with the JSA site and view the same picture you have posted at the beginning of this forum.

Here you go Chris...

Uh Oh!

Thank you, James.

I am disappointed that Spence certed that.

If I recall correctly, PSA rejected that Babe Ruth awhile back.

It's not authentic.

Very disappointing indeed. Someone is going to lose A LOT of money...:mad::(

i always thought it'd be easier to authenticate bigger names like ruth, mantle, gehrig, williams etc for people in the know because those get the most scrutiny, they have most examplars and authenticators study those sigs the most because they're the bread and butter, or am i wrong? maybe the forgers are getting so good....

like in cards you can look at a t206 or cracker jack and tell within 2 seconds if it's a fake...because you see them probably 100x more than some of the other obscure issues.

David, care to join me in sitting back and watching this unfold??

Ken

Sometimes you see an item (like the example here) that you just want to believe so bad that its real. I would love to know that a signed ticket stub from Babe Ruth's 700 home run game exists...

The truth is, I was hoping that Huggins & Scott would have pulled their listing by now.

Can we lock the thread before Travis sees it....:D:eek:

Count me in, Ken!

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but the unfolding is over.

I just hope that Huggins & Scott does the right thing.

Do you really think they're gonna pull a JSA-certed Ruth, Chris?
I got ten bucks that sez they won't.

Yeah, no way Huggins and Scott pulls that down. JSA has given their opinion, so someone is going to pay big bucks for it. H&S wants their cut and they will get it.

And the person who pays based on JSA's opinion only will get what they pay for.

I disagree. Huggins & Scott will do the right thing. They are stand up guys. Or they will come on and say why they disagree - which is their right.

I think that Huggins and Scott is as quality an auction house as there is. But JSA is who they use and they have given an opinion, one that will be profitable for the house. What reason do they have to believe a message board? Maybe they will listen to the more respected people here, but I would be surprised.

+1

Once an auction house has decided they will use JSA and/or PSA, that's that - they are paying them to be the experts. No matter how much they respect your opinion, the best you can hope for is for them to go re-confirm with the offending authenticator, and you know what the answer will be. I have already been through this process, and my opinion of the auction house in question dropped about 50%.

Well, we know they read these posts so we will see. I hope I'm right; it will disappointing if they do not do the right thing.

$3500 already :(

Well, we can only hope.

I am very disappointed with JSA.

What kind of beer do you guys like? :D

only now he gets disappointed with jsa?

i found that boat about 4 years ago.

Travis, it's all personal opinion. Someone will endorse something that most others are certain is a forgery, and support the TPA that authenticated it, but then when they disagree with the TPA, they are disappointed.

We all follow that model.

What I don't understand is people being disappointed in an auction house for not pulling a TPA-endorsed forgery. Once the house has decided to use a particular TPA, that TPA is their expert. You either support the TPA's decisions, or you stop using the TPA. Telling a supposed 'expert' that they are wrong, by pulling an item from your auction, isn't going to happen - it would be a bad precedent.

This may be hard for you to believe, but it is possible for some people to be disappointed in a decision someone else makes without completely condemning them, calling them incompetant at every turn, ranting like a lunatic ad nauseum, conjuring countless inane analogies, turning every thread into a hate-filled diatribe, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

Don't you think it is time just to make belive he is not there.:D

I completely get that all of these TPA's are fallible...even the big 2.

But what I don't understand as of yet (since I'm fairly new to the industry), is the poor quality of some of the forgeries that are being certed (particularly the high end autos). Some of these are so bad, that the company that issued the cert is the only one claiming them be authentic.

Is it the fact that so many Ruth's/Gehrig's/Cobb's are submitted to the big 2, that some very bad versions slip through the cracks? If that's the case, I would argue that I deserve much better service for my $200 authentication fee. I've submitted Ruth auto's at national events, and on average, I have an answer within 30 minutes....which would equate to $400 per hour. At that rate, bad versions shouldn't slip through (but I do understand a well executed forgery occasionally getting through).

And don't get me wrong, I have no problem with paying the fee...because as a little guy, I need the cert and can recoup that fee in the sale price.

Then again, maybe I'm completely off base, and the big 2 have exemplars of atypical Ruth's/Gehrig's/Cobb's that no one else is privy to.

The big two don't have anything that "no one else is privy to."

That's my point...:D

+1

Response
 

Fellas:
I just went through the thread and I apologize for not weighing in earlier. Here are some facts surrounding this:

There is a back story to this piece that also needs to be told. The ticket came from a gentleman in the Detroit, MI area who was gifted the ticket from a woman who attended the game with her father at Navin Field. Following that game, her and her father were at The Fisher Building in Detroit where Babe Ruth was doing a radio interview and the woman was sitting next to Ruth's wife. They got to talking and the woman asked if Ruth would sign the ticket stub from the game that she attended where he hit his 700th home run. He obliged the request. The woman held the ticket until 1992, where she gave it to our consignor, as a gift.

Both the ticket and the autograph were authenticated prior to it being encapsulated by JSA and SGC (independent of each other).

Today, James Spence was at our offices doing an authentication. I had Bill Huggins pull the ticket and show it to him again, for a second opinion, along with the concerns set forth. After a thorough examination with loop and his exemplar file, Jimmy was again 100% certain that his original opinion was correct - this is an authentic Ruth.

We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator again, who also was 100% sure of his original opinion of the authenticity of the ticket stub.

I also personally spoke to the consignor again today, just to verify the facts of the story. The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia - just a baseball fan who lived near this lady and prior to her passing, she gave it to him. He has also offered to speak to anyone who would like any more details of the story. If you would like his name and number, email me privately, and I will get you the contact information.

Thanks
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions
1-866-462-2273
josh@hugginsandscott.com

FWIW, I believe the signature is good, as well.

Here is a listing of other Tigers ticket stubs. You can see there are a couple of stamp-dated 1934 Tigers ticket stubs in this lot.

then again, maybe he is seeing the light.

but chris williams thinks it is bogus and is disappointed in jimmy.

i'm torn.

babe ruth autographs have been so mismanaged, so misauthenticated and so corrupted, with exemplar files that contain who knows what.

it's went around the bend, past the point of no return.

Only purging exemplar files and starting over with documented, or properly dated, or notarized, witnessed signatures of babe ruth from the beginning to the end can it hope to get back on track.

he signed the vast bulk of his signatures over just 20 years and its all screwed up.

some athletes have signed over 40, 50, 60 or 70 years and it's not screwed up like this. but a 20 year span he has dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different styles, slants, spacings, and sizes? why? we know why.

If they can authenticate it they can prove it. they don't so what are they hiding?

show us why this is good, or bad? we can do it for boxing, why can't they do it for baseball?

To much money to be made, and has been made, by friends and friends of friends.

Hi Josh,
Thanks for posting your responses!

Very interesting...
I'm curious where the photo of all the tickets came from?
I see that it says eBay on the screen shot, but I'm intrigued how this image shows a ticket issued only one day apart (wow!) from the alleged Ruth 700 HR ticket. That's an amazing coincidence! They obviously are stamped identically, at the same angle, yet the Emergency Tickets are "A" tickets one day, and "Z" the following day- in July, no less (half way through the season)!

FWIW, about 22,000 were in attendance for Ruth's 700th HR. Did this require that the Tigers issue emergency tickets? I looked at all the surrounding games at DET on the 1934 schedule and they all appear to have similar attendance, especially with the Yankees in town. I saw attendances ranging from 20,000-26,000 during this homestand. I would also note that at least 4 games at DET prior to the NY series that featured Ruth's HR drew at least as many fans. One of the games drew 30,000 fans and the game on July 4th drew 40,000 fans for a twinbill. Would Ruth's 700th HR be Emergency ticket "Z" if it was at a minimum the 6th high attended game in DET in 1934?
I don't know, and I'm quite certain that no one knows for sure. It just seems odd to me, FWIW...

I certainly can be wrong, but I stand by my assertion that I have not seen other earlier vintage Tigers tickets stamped in this fashion prior to the screen shot that you posted.

Please note that I am not attempting to make any comments about the authenticity of the Babe Ruth signature on the ticket as this is admittedly not my expertise.

Scott,
They were sold on eBay in March 2009 for $1482 for a lot of 90 1930's Detroit Tigers tickets (seems like a pretty good deal for any Tigers fan). The photo is from Worthpoint, a subscription website that indexes old eBay listings. Here's the rest of the description, just so nobody jumps to the conclusion that this Ruth ticket was in the lot.

Hi Lance,
Thanks for posting the description. I would have to agree with you that the buyer got an excellent deal on this vintage Tigers ticket lot. $15 a ticket- very nice!

Certainly this provides some support to the theory that the stamped Emergency Ticket could be an actual ticket from the game played on 7/13/34, Babe Ruth's 700th HR.

Looking at this from only the ticket portion of the equation, as a baseball ticket collector, I am still bothered by three things:

Would the game played on 7/13/34 (Ruth 700th HR) have been the 1st game in the Detroit Tiger's 1934 home schedule to have required the issuance of an Emergency Ticket? I know that I am repeating a portion of my previous post here, but we know that very few games in 1934 have "high" reported attendance according to retrosheet.org.

Of the home games that did have reported attendance, the Ruth 700 HR game was the 6th game with enough attendance to require an Emergency ticket. Wouldn't it make plausible sense that the 1st big attendance game would be the Emergency "A" ticket and not the 5th game?
I don't know...

Secondly, does it make plausible sense that the next game in the home schedule to require an emergency ticket (the 6th reported high attendance game in the DET home schedule) would be Emergency Ticket Z? That's interesting (odd). Extremely random, but possible....

Thirdly, both sets of Emergency tickets appear to be stamped by precisely the same hand. The same stamp appears to be used, as well as the same angle of stamp applied, in the same location on the ticket. No randomness to this at all, FWIW.

All this, in of itself, does not prove or disprove that this ticket is legit. Unless we were a fly on the ticket office wall, we will never know.

Now, back to the real question: does the Babe Ruth signature hold up as far as being a legitimate example of his 1930's signature? I will leave this up to the experts to figure out. I have no horse in this race...

For sure, this is an interesting puzzle to ponder over.... ;)

I have sent Josh a message requesting the contact info of the consignor.

+1 and more......

I have responded to your email with the consignors name and contact phone number.

WHOA! May I ask why you'd give out a consignor's name and number? If I'm the consignor, I'd want YOU to reach out to me, not to get a call from someone else, no matter who he is!

Ken

+!

Couldn't agree more. If you believe that Chris' expertise trumps that of the expert you've employed, then hire Chris. 'Till then, he's no more entitled to consignor information than any stranger on the street.

Guys, he's not just handing consignor contact info out willy nilly. As he said, the consignor offered to speak to anyone who wants more details. Whether anyone else thinks opening that door is a bad idea is irrelevent if the consignor made the offer. And I'm sure that Josh has the good sense not to give his info to certain troublemaking bloggers who would misuse the info to hound the consignor to death.

That's different.

Never mind.

EXACTLY! C'mon guys - you don't really think I'd just give out a consignor's name without consent and lengthy conversations regarding this situation, do you?
The consignor told me that he would be more than willing to relay the back story of this ticket to anyone who wanted to know what it was. I relayed it in the description and on this board, but for some reason, that didn't seem to be enough information for Christopher to make him feel ok about this piece, so he asked for the contact information and I obliged (again, with the consignor's consent).

Why do we need Christopher to feel okay about this piece?

great question Travis! We don't ... and since he isn't even registered to bid with us, I felt I was going way above and beyond what I needed to do.
I pride myself on making sure we are one of the most "customer friendly" auction companies out there, so if I can do a little bit to make anyone who comes into a public forum and questions our items, I don't mind answering them and trying to make them feel comfortable with the items we run.

Here's another Babe Ruth. It is a forgery.


Attachment 94684



It was penned by the same person who penned the "Ruth" on the ticket up for auction on Huggins & Scott.

The person who penned both of those Babe Ruth sigs (this one and the one on the ticket) resides in Michigan.

I guess we will never know for certain. What I can tell you is I signed my name 50+ times today at work (typical Friday's in my world) and I assure you the following:

1. My signature was a lot clearer in the AM then when I signed the last
2. There were no 2 that looked exact (similar but not exact)

Just my .02 cents ( no change required :D)

Greg

Can we see the whole piece, Chris--inscription, too?

Still waiting, Chris.

I don't understand the secrecy and the game playing on this board. Post what you know, ALL of what you know, and maybe some of these forgers will get out of the game. Instead it's all shrouded in secrecy and the scammers continue to scam. And if you can't post what you think you know because you're not 100% sure then don't post any of it. :rolleyes:

Oh, Chris is 100% sure, Dan. He's always 100% sure.

But he will never post more than he himself wants to--he is the high priest, after all. His voice is the word of God. Compared with that what matters the questioning of mere gnats?

i agree, it's always cloak and dagger. It passed 2 separate authentication services that collectors use. spence, and root, why not call up spence, chris, call up root, what's the problem? root is right on this board.

Yep....Chris is ridiculous to many times with his "Mystery Man" persona. If you know it, then show it....otherwise you just blow it.

The snide remarks will stop now......

Chris,

There are several people here that are interested in that ticket stub and any information you can provide would be helpful to the hobby. If you could share the full scan and any additional information, it would be appreciated...for instance, forger from Michigan's name, if consigner is from Michigan, etc.

Tell me, James, how is that going to help the "several people here that are interested in that ticket stub?"

"The great and powerful Oz has spoken!"

How is anything you have posted so far going to help those SAME people...ask yourself that question. Better yet, how is anything you have ever posted going to help...you fish for people rather than teaching people to fish. Knowledge is power my friend and if it can't be shared, then what importance does it have.