Auction Houses and blind bidding
 

IMO, auction houses and their blind bidding structure create and the perdect environment for shillers and cheats who would bid up their own cards, or someone else's, for whatever reason.

I think ebay provides a safer system for bidding, albeit not ideal.

Total transparency is the only thing that I believe has any chance of legitimizing the realized prices that many pay for high profile items.

I've seen many times an item sell for X amount at an AH and then the same item nosedives on ebay. Why? Well because on ebay you've got a chance to research what happens during bidding. Most recently a member on CU was outed for shilling and item he consigned to an ebay seller, this would be impossible with the current structure of AHs.

Then you have the "no financial recourse" aspect of AHs ... which is a separate, but very significant, issue as well.

I hope we see some government regulation for these AHs as I fear they falsly inflate the prices of many high profile items, thereby hurting the legitimacy of our hobby.

As I've said before, and many have agrees, a little transparency goes a long way.

Gotta disagree here...

eBAY has become much less transparent over time, each initiative they come up with is fuel for more malfeasance.

eBay isn't reputation based ..at least not in whole. They are only a vehicle for millions of individual sellers...believe it or not, there are millions of users and sellers who have no interest in Sports Cards:eek:

As far as Auction Houses that specialize in Sports Cards...they have a pretty finite audience. Obviously, the way they conduct their business directly affects their limited client base. Auction houses have long been the topic of heated discussion on this board. (Maybe even on the CU board) I don't need to remind most of our readers here.

Accusations and shady dealings surely must have hurt those AH that you see in the headlines, but an honest, reputable AH big or small seems to be doing well in this marketplace.
I qualify that statement in that I cannot afford to bid in the bigger AH auctions anyway, but based on what I have seen, I won't be doing so even if I have a windfall.

Reputation that is deserved by the actual customer-focused business practices... not by shiniest catalog/biggest website, that's what wins out for my dollar.

eBay is my least favorite place to acquire cards for my collection. I'm not being hypocritical, because I use eBay due to Sports Card addiction.:o

I disagree as well.......seems like I've heard this same argument before.......

Paul and I have agreed to disagree on this subject for ...well, forever (which is only a few months since we virtually met :)) But what do I know anyway?

I agree and this is my whole point. The whole hiding in the shadows bit.

Ebay took a turn for the worse, heading more towards how AHs do things, by making their bidding more anonymous. But at least it's still possible to track activity with a little research. With AHs it's impossible.

Bottom-line is that with AHs you put yourself in a much more vulnerable position, and we've all seen how premium cards go for crazy amounts at an AH only to take a nosedive on ebay.

Is this always the case? Of course not, but you'll almost never see a premium card go for less in an AH than on ebay.

And many people will only sell their premium cards through consignment (onbay or off), so that they can artificially inflate the cards value. The worst scenario is this one, since people get the impression, through VCP, that a card is worth something since all of it's recorded data came from AH sales.

Unfortunately this racket will continue until the law steps in, as when money is involved, some people won't stop until they get caught. Total transparency is the only real weapon against this, albeit far from perfect.

Ultimately, these kind of blind dealings hurt this hobby, and that's what I take issue with.

Paul, no offense, but can I ask you why your username is "bubblebathgirl"? Just curious.

Also, FWIW, I won an auction on goodwin the other night and my max bid was 1 notch nigher than I won the item for. So, the auction house could have "behind my back" looked at my max bid and bumped the price up to that level, but they did not do that. I agree with what the others have said - the main, larger auction houses in the hobby have a limited customer base, and need to be really really careful. One public mess up and it could do big damage to their reputation.

To be clear I'm not necessarily saying the proprietors are shilling the bids (though that's been known to happen) but rather those who consign to them. The same definitely happens on ebay, and in a CU thread a member was exposed for shilling his own auction that was consigned to a well know ebay seller.

But at least on ebay there is some evidence, so that's how this person was exposed. Whereas the offbay AHs provide no info on the bidders, and therefore shillers can run rampant if they choose.

I think consignors bidding or getting associates/friends/family to bid is a legitimate concern. I don't know what you mean by transparent bidding, but if that means bidders' identities are public I'd be against it. I don't have a plan of my own to offer.

I understand the point you are making, but I think at least some of that phenomenon is because eBay is lot more dicey than dealing with an auction house. I am certainly not a big fish, but if I was buying a real premium card, I would feel much more secure buying from an auction house than off of eBay. The chance of receiving an empty box or a reprint that was depicted as a real card in the listing is pretty much zero with an auction house.

The auction houses are not perfect by any means, but they also weed out the blatant scammers and rip off artists that are so common on eBay. How much of what you cited is people paying for peace of mind and not having to deal with the riff raff of sellers on eBay?

Auction House Transparency: All bidder names and/or ID's will be available and noted on each active auction item up to and including closing of the auction.

PRO: Identifies the bidder on the lot, provides a record of the bidder's purchase(s), allows bidders to see who they are bidding against or lost to, provides peace of mind to proponents that suggest such transparency will stem the tide of shill or false bids

CON: Provides purchase history and price point of attached to bidder, allows others to run up selected bidders, allows auction houses to create bidders/identities to use as shills which defeats the purpose of intended transparency

Scenario 1: High profile bidder, known to many in the hobby, is identified by his bidder name/ID and others, knowing high profile bidder will not be outbid, run up the item (in essence, shill bidding)

Scenario 2: Bidder wins lot or group of cards to break up and sells them. Bidding patterns and bidding strategy can then be identified and copied.

Scenario 3: Major dealer or another auction house bids and wins and resells item. The AH Investigative Team springs into action and calls out a conspiracy.

Scenario 4: A bidder wins a lot(s) and another bidder takes exception and makes a point to harass through eBay/message boards or outbid against the winner in the next auction.

Scenario 5: A bidder wins and no one cares.

Scenario 6: A bidder (fictitious auction house shill account) wins the auction after multiple shill bids and the auction house eventually offers the item to the under bidder or runs it again in the next auction while the "realized" price stands as a point of record.

I'm sure there are many other scenarios, but I really don't see how such transparency would cut down on shilling or false prices as all the auction house has to do is create false accounts (they could even utilize consignor names or addresses to camouflage this in the event of inquiry).

The attempt to create true transparency by use of actual bidder names would only cause some bidder NOT to engage in such auctions. There are times that I have no interest in others knowing what I am bidding on or purchasing. And I'm quite certain that there are some high profile bidders that enjoy and insist upon their anonymity...

In a perfect world an auction house would be completely transparent. In this world the closest we will get is an auction house that keep anonymity for the bidder but adds transparency in other areas for bidding (while still keeping the buyers anonymous if they want), descriptions, fees, etc.

The only solution is for all of you to stop bidding in online auctions.

That'll show 'em!

I think there will be conspiracy theorists (such as yourself .... no mal intent) in any aspect of life. The JFK assassination was rigged .... so was 9/11.

I wonder what your thoughts on Barrett-Jackson's multi-billion dollar yearly national televised auto auctions are? Are there people sitting in the crowd that are friends of the car's owner pumping the bids as it rolls across the auction block??

Paul, if you have legitimate concerns on AH's bidding policies then simply continue to use eBay. I have purchased items from both AH and eBay and have always been comfortable with what I paid for an item. You put up your max bid and hope that you're the high bidder...if not then someone else wanted it more than you.

Yes, there are instances where people may bid up their own auctions or have others do it for them but I truly believe that those instances are rare. More transparency doesn't necessarily help here and I don't think this is isolated to baseball cards and memorabilia.

Bottom line imho is to bid where you feel comfortable.

Lots of good points in this thread, I do think because of ebays actions (no longer able to see bidder id's) and the rise of ebay consignment companies, far more shilling is going on in ebay than the AH's today. That said "buyer beware" because it's happening in both.

+1. And I sense with the good guys in the FBI handing out subpoena's and watching the AH industry there is a bit less shenanigans than there used to be. And I do think there is more than ever going on on ebay. Sounds like Paul (hi Paul) isn't quite getting the consensus he wanted?

There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Even if AHs make all bidding transparent, that does not preclude people from creating and managing multiple accounts to shill their own consignments. Maybe it makes it slightly more challenging to do, but it certainly would not be difficult to do. And it would be even easier for those AHs that are nefarious themselves, to create a never ending supply of fake users to shill auctions for their own benefit.

It does create an environment to do this. But what if the consignor wins back his card? The bid is $1,000, with BP it's $1,180. Less consignment fees he gets $850. Basically he paid $330 to get his card back. Very risky.

Also, don't forget 'mature seller shill i.d.'s'. Ten years ago we complained about possible shilling and at that time we could easily spot 'low feedback' i.d.'s, and even track them back to sellers. Now we can't track them, PLUS those same i.d.'s would be ten years older now and much more difficult to spot because of their higher feedback numbers.

I will take the auction houses over ebay sellers any day.

And there are those who have admitted to this not thinking they had done something wrong (and one person is a member here :eek: ) They are lucky that the thread on CU was poofed, unless someone was quick enough to screen capture.

So no matter what everyone has for a moral compass, there will always be more people (or so it seems) who will take the low road for a few bucks. Money and greed often go hand in hand with the collectibles industries whether it be cards, coins, comics, cars, etc

Transparency will never "cure" problems with auction houses or ebay. It wont even lessen it. It will only make the scammers more ingenious how they do it.

I agree there are definitely scam and rip off artists on ebay, but at least you have buyer (and seller) protection if something goes wrong. With AHs you have no buyer protection at all. I've read stories of people receiving items NAD from AHs and then having to go through hell just to get a response.

Personally, I don't find any peace of mind bidding blindly and having no financial recourse if something goes wrong.


As for those who suggest just bid what you feel comfortable with, well, where do you get that comfort level from? Is it from research into what things have sold for recently in the past? If that research came from AH hammer prices then your own feeling of comfort might be coming from a shilled auction where you have no way of knowing what happened. Just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so.


Like I have said before, transparency is the only way to make it more difficult for people to cheat and scam. As long as humans exist there will always be those trying to take advantage through immoral means, but that doesn't mean you give up and say there is nothing you can do. It means you evolve, and if you don't, you get left in the dust. Adaptability is why humans have prevailed as the dominant species on this planet, and change is a good thing.

IMO, if you're afraid of people knowing what you're bidding on or buying, then you shouldn't be buying it. And I think the whole extended bidding system is nonsense. The system on ebay where it ends at an exact time and you drop in your bid at the last second to protect against any shill bidders works very well.

It's always better to have more information, that's how you get to the truth of situations by making informed decisions, it's how credibility is built and it's really the only way to get the closest to everyone winning.

You want auction houses to be completely transparent when you don't even allow your 79T baseball set to be transparent on the PSA registry?

I am an auctioneer and I will never publish any bidder list. The thought of that is ridiculous. The bidders have a right to their privacy and I am not in business to share my contacts with anyone. My advice Paul is that if you do not trust auction houses than vote with your wallet and stay away from them. Paul have you ever been cheated by am AH? Do you understand how valuable a bidder list is to an auction company and how much money was spent to generate those bidders. As an auctioneer, there are certain people who will not trust me know matter how much I can prove that I am trustworthy that is part of the business.

I agree with bidder privacy. Some people spend incredible amounts of money and some may not want others to know who they are or what they spend because they do not want to become targets. You might not see such high bids if people dont get privacy. Ask some of the big spenders if they would want people knowing how much they spend. I would bet most of them choose to enjoy their privacy. Transparency would never prevent shilling in any way. To think so is naive even if it seems like a good idea.

I have had to use a 'proxy bidder' in a live auction because another bidder had his panties in a wad because I won an item he wanted. He was running up every item I bid on, all the while turning and glaring at me. My proxy won every bid without interference.

Can you imagine the shenanigans if (Lelands, Heritage, etc) showed who the bidders were?

Like I said before, the ebay system works best. With a fixed end time you can bid in the last few seconds and no one can run you up.

If people run up other people during the rest of bidding time they can be caught and handled. With AHs you have no chance and no clue what is happening to you at any point during the auction.

The problem with AHs is that they inflate prices causing a bubble that will eventually burst just like it did for the real estate market. I've seen it happen before, and have actually benefited from it by picking up premium cards on ebay when that exact same card (same cert) didn't go for close what it did with the offbay auction houses.

If you believe that for some reason AH bidding is all pure because it is blind, then you are the exact target that they and shillers are looking for. The more prices go up, the more the AHs make, so it is clearly to their advantage to do whatever it takes to keep those prices high ... and that's what they've created the arena that they have.

This?


bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 12:30 PM (NEW!)



I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Or how about this scenario. I consign a card, and don't realize that All Star Cards is paying $850 for a particular card in a particular grade. I see the card in question for $300 less than what ASC is paying. Is that wrong to try to win the card to ship it off to ASC for a profit, even though it is my card?

Just wanted some thoughts and ideas.......



bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 5:47 PM (NEW!)





<< You did bid it UP. You can't bid on your own item, and it makes no difference whether you originally bought it for $1 or $1000. >>




If I paid $1,000 for a card one month ago, do you think I am going to absolutely hate it at $500??? I bid on alot of cards. I use ONE CLICK BID. Alot of times I don't even look at the seller. I accidentally bid on the card. I see a card that I think is an absolute steal, and I bid on it. I am a VCP member and I see what the current average is on the card. The winning bidder got it for darn near $150 under the average selling price. It was an accident. I would have LOVED to have that card for $600. At $710 the winning bidder absolute stole the card.

It didn't get poofed, just locked. It's on page 11 right now.

And he got caught because of semi-transparent bidding. It's a deterrent.

Others have been caught and blocked as a result. Yes there are always workarounds but the point is to keep evolving ways to keep things fair.

I don't expect people who run AHs (known or unknown) or those who have their minds made up to change. My POV is to offer some food for thought to those who haven't considered this yet, and who just don't know any better.

Federal Indictments and subpoenas are a deterrent too. Paul, you really epitomize something I repeat quite often. If everyone else is wrong, you might want to look in the mirror.

No one has ever said AH bidding is perfect. No one. Yet you go on and on about thinking people say that. They don't. You are just obstinate and quite wrong and will never ever get it. I bet if you made an F in school you would tell the teacher the test was wrong. (even though everyone else made good grades on it). There is no doubt there are problems with AH bidding but to argue it's worse than ebay is just ignorant, at best, and stupid at worst. Pick one.

Leon, I think you now see what many of us experienced at the CU boards. It is like arguing with a wall as he just doesnt get it.. This really is a "beating a dead horse" situation but BBG continues to hit the deceased horse with a baseball bat trying to make his/her point.

I hear ya Andrew. Unless there is something else I can't resist saying I am done with this subject. The poor horse is dead.

Ebay has evolved to a nearly risk free playground for miscreants whether they use a consignment seller or list the items themselves and use a friend or alt ID to run items up. I am distrustful to a much lesser extent of AHs and figure that most less than honest consignors can figure a way to affect the outcome of a lot if they want to. That is more a reflection of the overall hobby I am in engaged in than anything else.

There's fraud on ebay and there's fraud in auction houses. This is a fact.

If the auction house isn't run by crooks then their consignors will shill up their lots without direct involvement of the auction house. Either way is fraud.

Consider the value of your collections and subtract 20-25% for 'fraud tax.' That's what your collection is worth.

Oh and by the way, make sure you submit a letter on behalf of Bill Mastro for his upcoming sentencing for fraud in connection with his Mastro Auctions -- you may have been defrauded by him but he still considers you a friend.

Paul I am guessing that your 79 topps baseball set registry on psa isn't public because you don't want people seeing what cards you need and then running the price up on you when they become available. How is that any different than if there is a well known collector trying to buy a card from an AH and having the price driven up on them if there name is "transparent" as you want? Pretty much seems like you are for privacy when it benefits you, but against it when it doesn't.

The horse has been dead for so long that it looks more like Tito Fuentes tapping his bat on homeplate. There just ain't nothing left of the ol' mule...

The only thing to do from here is that BBG should start her own AH (Im meaning auction house :p) with COMPLETE transparency and see how well she does. Dont think that would do well but hey, prove everyone wrong instead of insisting being right and everyone else wrong.

Wait, are you actually trying to make that argument that a seller would have shill bidding on his auction if he knew the buyer was someone in particular? And that the seller otherwise wouldn't shill bid the auction?

Wat?

If I am a shill bidder, I am one of the worst ones in history, because I lost almost $400 on the card. I had a $800 offer for the card that I had turned down. I saw the card at $500. I accidentally bid on it, thinking of the $800 offer. To call me a shill bidder is ludicrous. How many people in here have lost $400 on a card in just one months time? Not many, I care to wager.....

Bottom line...isn't a shill bidder supposed to bid his items UP, past the point of what he paid for an item?? I am not a shill bidder. I bid nowhere near what I paid. As I stated, I lost $400 on the card. To call me a shill bidder, you might as well call all of you collectos with your nylons, Q-tips and your 'card soaking' as card doctors......

I have lost more than that a number of times and never shill bid. And I didn't have the cards very long either. I am probably one of the exceptions but I am sure there are a number of other board members in the same position. If you made a mistake, so be it, but from the sound of your tone it doesn't really sound like it. Just my observation. Like I say, if it was a mistake, say so and admit it, don't do it again, and move on.

I was making a point Leon. Do you consider yourself a 'card doctor' because you use a Q-tip and water on a card?? Alot of people like to throw around phrases and 'conspiracy theories' when there is really nothing to see. Take Bill Holler. He liked to talk junk, when what he did is a federal crime. I am surprised the feds aren't after him for all the money he conned. I just don't like the double standards and hypocrisy that runs rampant.

I accidentally bid on a card. I bid $600, thinking of selling it to a collector who offered me $800 earlier that I had turned down. The card eventually sold for $710, so technically, I still could have made $90 (not counting the $1,000 I paid the previous month - that is a separate transaction). If the winning bidder wants to sell it to me for $800, I would love to buy it back from him. But to say I am a shill biddder, when I placed one bid that was nowhere close to what I paid is ludicrous. A true shill bidder bids, and bids, and bids, and usually has no intentions of paying.

A shill bidder bids on his own cards. Once is a shill bid. Any more than that is just more shill bidding.

Also, trying to justify a mistake is kind of silly.

I don't understand how you can "accidentally" bid on a card?

Bidding on your own item is shilling. Whether you intend to win or "buy back" at a "safe" price or just increase the final price of the eventual winner, it is still shilling.

Polishing a turd may make it shiny, but it is still a turd... And it will still stink!

Leon, what you seem to say is that AH bidding, which is completely invisible, is better than ebay bidding, which allows people to actually have clues into who does what.

You clearly have a bias here as you run your own auction house that functions in such a "hiding" way. Granted, you are still entitled to your opinion, but the only reason why any auction house would allow blind bidding is because it affords them the opportunity to make more money.

What I say threatens your livelihood, as it does many of those who read these and don't respond, but function auction houses that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars ... if not more. Because it is a thin sheet of ice that many of you operate upon. Again, this concerns mainly the highly profile/value items.

I understand why you wouldn't even consider what I am saying ... as it is far from in your interest to do so ... and many who have already bought into the AH system (spending already thousands above what the items they purchase are actually worth or would be sold at elsewhere) are set in their ways and won't even consider otherwise.

Like I've said before, what I say is for others who are open-minded, or are new to sportscards, to consider when they bidding in a system that is setup to simply leave them extremely vulnerable to mischievous behavior.

IMO, AHs weaken this industry with their unverifiable hammer prices and questionable bidding practices.

There is no shill control whatsoever with ebay, and no accountability to customers. We have no idea who 'the man behind the curtain' is, and ebay intends for it to stay that way.

The fact that Leon runs an auction house does not mean that he isn't entitled to an opinion - on the contrary, I'm sure he has a helluva lot more idea as to how an auction house works than you do.

There's no blanket label for auction houses. There are good ones and bad ones.

In my opinion, ebay is worse than the best auction houses, and the reasons are more than because of shilling. A bunch of eBay sellers are dishonest and another bunch are incompetent-- not even considering shilling.

Shill bidding is wrong, unethical, illegal, etc., but my biggest problem is I'm addicted to the auctions and bidding and buying cards, the only way to stop shill bidding is if no one would overbid for cards and let the shillers get stuck for the cards.

As a non-card collector, I say authenticity, description of condition and getting the item are more important than lack of shilling to me. The best Auction Houses can far outshine eBay in the first three. And I don't know that there is less shilling on eBay.

And, before someone picks on my ordering of offenses, I note that I think shilling is a bad thing. And often illegal.

(no message) was trying to be sarcastic/funny.

Since we are talking about eBay vs. auction houses, this PWCC auction for a 1913 Shoeless Joe National Game card is, um, interesting. The current high bidder has 77 total bids in the last 30 days, and all 77 of those bids have been with PWCC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350703421457...=p5197.c0.m619

I was told by a member that they were bidding up their own item that was listed in a "major" auction house auction. I was a bit flabbergasted to hear the admission and then I came to the realization that all auctions are probably rigged. :(

Paul:

You've held this one-minded opinion for quite some time. You've espoused it over and over and over and over and no matter what logical rationale anyone presents, you insist that your opinion is the RIGHT ANSWER.

You've been challenged to present an alternative. Identify how to run an auction house with transparency that still manages to protect the privacy of the bidder.

You come off as the self-professed answer to all that is wrong with the hobby and shout out endlessly about how important it is for collectors to have knowledge so that they don't overspend and in the same breath, you spent thousands to buy flips just for improving your Registry GPA without knowing or caring about the source of the product you are buying. Once you were enlightened, you've still denied it or spin-doctored it to your benefit.

To suggest that those spending hundred of thousands at auction for rare items via auction houses haven't done their homework or are unaware of the opportunity to be manipulated is a slap in the face to those that have forgotten more about the hobby and how it transacts than you will ever know.

To point a finger and accuse others while hiding behind your own selfishness just reinforces the cowardice and delusional importance you have placed upon yourself.

Entitled to your opinion? Certainly.

Being able to make blanket assumptions and throw around damning accusations without cause for being accountable. Absolutely not!

The is no CU moderator here to complain to and protect you and you'll find that your attitude, stubbornness and general ignorance won't fly too long.

Good luck...

Why
 

Why do you think you have a right to know what someone else is purchasing for their collection? I do not think you have this right nor should you.

My question is what is meant by 'transparency.' I'm against bidder's names being published, but perhaps what is meant is ebay-like nicknames or numbers.

I wouldn't bid at a place where my name is published. And I can understand why someone who won $300,000 worth of stuff and has a publicly available home address wouldn't want his name published. Publishing on the internet the name and address where $300,000 worth of stuff will soon be delivered-- now there's a smart idea.

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

I am not sure I have ever seen eye to eye with you but I wholeheartedly agree with this entire statement ... I learned a while ago otw knows what he is talking about...

What can an auction house do to retain folks trust? I am not talking about publishing bidder names that is ridiculous. We spend so much effort with conspiracies, but could there ever be trust? I believe that AH's are tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and they were not even invited to defend themselves. I saw a post about an admission where a consignor admitted shilling his own item. The OP jumps to an immediate conclusion that all AH's are rigged. No logical steps in between just pure conjecture. There is no way for an AH to know the activity of consignors. They may make up fake names, allow friends and family to bid, etc. I know I council every consignor on not bidding on their items and they sign a contract stating that they will not bid on such items. If I were to learn they bid on their own items they would no longer consign with me. What else can I do?

I thought Josh Evans had the only dog with opposable thumbs in the hobby. I stand corrected.

Sure the nickname solution is a good compromise, and the one that ebay went with. It still allows savvy shoppers to track bidding patterns and expose some of those who try and cheat.

Like I said there will be those who simply contradict what I say because they are too entrenched in their own beliefs that they cannot even consider another. This will always be the case, and is of no real concern as they are the small, but vocal, minority.

I've pointed out the major danger of dealing with AHs, and you would be wise to avoid them for big ticket items until they change how they work to a way that is safer for the buyer ... the above mentioned nickname strategy is a reasonable starting point.

You m'am, are a dimwit!

So you have beaten this campaign into the ground on other boards and now you are trying to take it here all the while accusing the board moderator of not having an open mind on this subject? Is it because he and many others refuse to believe as you do on this idea? Just freaking give it up and talk about cards and let this thing go. Or perhaps continue beating the drum over on the CU boards where you have the ear of the Mods who can poof any thread you deem to be not in agreement with your position. Go cry to Joe Orlando that the Net54 boards refuse to see it your way.

Geez this crap gets old very fast. Give it up woman!!

Paul:

Do you have any concept of the people that you're talking down to and trying to "educate" about auction houses? Some of these guys' single bid increments are more than your entire collection is worth. If you honestly think that they are so naive and unaware, then perhaps you are the one that needs to open your mind and look at this from another angle.

Dismissing those that challenge you as a "vocal minority" only reinforces your general disconnect with reality. Just because you believe something to be so, doesn't mean that it is right.

Again, rather than throw accusations and embellish your assumptions, lay out a legitimate plan of action that would protect the identity of the bidder AND eliminate the possibility of shilling by either the auction house or owner/bidders. Since you obviously have it all figured out, this shouldn't be too difficult -- albeit, a request that you continually ignore.

Definitely. And this is really the only current way that things are kept from flying apart at the seems as they currently are.

Only issue is, again for high profile cards, what is an "overbid"?

People get their concept of fair prices from previous sales. But if all of the previous sales came from the same suspicious forum, well then you have a problem. This is precisely why many high profile cards never make it to ebay, because sellers know they would take a dive ... or when they do make it to ebay, they consign the card so that they can bid on it. Now at least on ebay some detective work can be done when this happens.

You're gonna see some people lash out at me personally here, and that's because I'm challenging something that is probably near and dear to their hearts ... something they've based a lot of their collection on and now is being questioned ... and they simply can't handle it. It's just what happens ... and is fine. Thankfully this board has a nice ignore function :)

It's always clear to me when someone has a weak argument because they result to personal attacks, name calling and general immature behavior. This is the kind of stuff that got a lot of the same bad seeds either kicked off CU or reprimanded there. I'm glad PSA instituted their forum rules and have found posting their a lot more enjoyable since.

But yeah, as for overbidding, thankfully there are a lot of resources to use to come up with a comfortable price ... and it's easy enough to filter out the obvious balloons. A good example is the 1978 Topps #707 Rookie Shortstops PSA 10 card:

http://bubblebathgirl.com/images/cu/...78/707_vcp.jpg

You can clearly see how this card took a dive after coming back to reality on ebay after a stint at 2 of the AHs. Now it's reasonable for the card to have a certain increase in value as unopened material has dried up a lot, but this kind of pattern of buy high at AHs and sell low on ebay isn't uncommon for premium cards ... and there's certainly a reason for this.

The unfortunate thing is some online publications will take this latest hammer price and use that as an indicator of the new "value" of the card, when in this case, it's most likely just another balloon waiting to pop.

I see a lot of beating on the keyboard by BBG but yet there are no solutions offered. Maybe an axe to grind with AH cuz of lost auctions? Maybe sold something and didnt get the priced expected?

Im getting a headache from all the banging but who has the Motrin?

I still say that all the transparency in the world will not do anything to stop shilling.

All anyone can do is be smart with their money. If they believe they are being shilled, be smart enough to step away from the auction. If you are bidding the price you are happy to pay, keep bidding, shilling or not.

An opinion doesnt mean squat unless you have a solution to go with it.

This most definitely isn't true. Talk about incredible leaps in logic.

What is true is that most of the posts in this thread carry an hyper defensive tone. That is often a result of postings that hit too close to home.

Interesting thread.

I think this (and you) are now laughable.

A bit about me.......

I have NEVER placed a bid in an auction house auction. I honestly do not have the money to do so due to my spouse's illness.

I rarely bid in Ebay auctions and when I do it is usually a 10 dollar item so shill bidding is normally not an issue with me. My collection comes directly from what I have in my possession over my 40 years of collecting and face to face transactions at card shows.

Since I DO NOT bid in any auction house auctions and I rarely bid on Ebay I honestly dont give a crap about this issue. I am even more happy about the way I purchase anything for my collection after seeing the various Probstein threads on many boards and seeing how Mastro and others have treated bidders in their auctions. My beef with you is how you continue to beat the drum on this issue and REFUSE to even listen to anyone else's opinion and your continued resolve to show everyone else how freaking right you are.

You have made your point now move on. You have now posted your crap on two sections of the Net54 boards and all over the CU boards. Whats next? Blowout? FCB?

As for the ignore button on these boards....you dont need it because it seems your brain has everyone who doesnt buy into your way of thinking on ignore anyway!!

I recommend some other method for determining the strength of opposing arguments. Sometimes people 'result' to such tactics because they simply don't like you very much.

It may not be true in all cases but it fits here. But the fact is, what is an opinion without solution? It's called complaining or whining.

People can have their opinions and express them and that is always encouraged. Maybe they are looking for solutions. But when you have so much to say about it over and over again and offer nothing, its beating that dead horse and that doesnt appear to be so encouraged.

Well said John.

Thanks for posting the Munson cards as an example and looking at those they do look very suspect and I would refrain from bidding when I see things like that.

As I stated above, shilling and other crap happens everywhere but imo much more so on ebay. He is an example of a card I am currently watching that the pattern brings up a lot of red flags. Heck the card is for sale the 3rd time in less than 30 days, check out the bidders on the past auctions, also that many bidders with less than 100 feedback is more red flags, current bidding on new listing even more red flags, etc. You can find this daily on ebay and if not for services like VCP that can help point out these listing, I would be getting burned like I did in the past. I just wonder how many other collectors out there are getting taken in deals sales like this.

Here you go-
1911 Sporting Life TY COBB M116 (Pastel)

Current listing-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...item1c2fb6c057

VCP-
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...pricescopy.jpg

Link to last two sales-
1/24/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

1/13/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

Funny how all three auctions have the exact same titles.....

Interested to see what others think about this as its not clear cut shilling but imo looks more like possible manipulation of pricing/value.

Paul, serious question here. Unless you already have me on ignore, perhaps you'll answer.

What is an acceptable response to your stance? "Paul, all this time I have been blind to what AHs are doing, but you have opened my eyes. I, too, call on all AHs to have a truly transparent bidding process." (or some variation of, "you are right").

There is zero wiggle room in your position. It's either your way, or no way. Saying people are too entrenched in their beliefs and will not consider another is a bit like a pot/kettle situation. I sincerely think you have considered other positions and believe you are right. However, isn't it possible that others have actually considered your position and believe you are wrong? Sure seems that in your view, since others don't agree, they obviously must not have taken time to consider... 'cause if they did, my goodness, the heavens would open and the birds would sing.

Paul,

When you consign something to an auction house they promote it, take it to shows and mail out catalogs. The prospective buyer sometimes has months to prepare. Listing on eBay is like dropping a needle in a haystack and hoping someone notices it within 7 days. Whoever notices it also needs to have the cash ready. You can't really compare the two as a level playing field.

agreed. What if I'm a big whale on a particular item and I'm on vacation for a week. If it was an auction, I would have received the catalog and had time to look at the preview. Discussions on message boards would have taken place and in the end I would know exactly when it was ending (date and time). Hard to compare that to someone listing an item on ebay on Tuesday at 8PM amongst their garden tools and tube socks.

As a side note the state of New York has begun the process to require that SELLERS be identified in auctions. Now this stems from art auctions and may or may not have any bearing on smaller auctions, but I am willing to bet if they infact enact it, ALL auctions in that state will be required to list the indentity of who the seller is. That would be a major headache for the auction lot with hundreds or thousands of lots, many by different consignors.

Did anyone else hear of this?

Or maybe it's a case of once the buyer with the most money bought his copy, he didn't need to bid on the second one. Then when the buyer with the second most money got his, he didn't need to bid on the third one.

Ignore is a convenient excuse to avoid answering.

Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they are resorting to insults or can't handle your assessment.

Knowledge is key. In many instances, there isn't enough recent information to extrapolate price points from "recent" sales. Sure, traveling in the modern circle presents a myriad of sales, but a majority on this board consider modern to be anything manufactured after WWII, not 1990...

Almost five racks for a Paul Molitor RC :eek:

The market is literally begging for card doctoring.

Well stated Matthew. Millions of bidders, but your auction only gets 100 views.

And it is often a different set of bidders - ebayers frequently lack knowledge about more esoteric items. Example:

Item I purchased from Hunt: Hunt - Ted Williams pool cue

The ebay sell last night: Ebay - Ted Williams pool cue

I am still trying to figure out why this issue is so important to Paul? There are probably only a couple of cards from the 78 and 79 topps baseball sets that are even worth sending to an AH and those are the only cards he collects anyways. I just don't get it......