OT: No One Elected to the Hall?
 

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/

It seems the voting committee has turned into Washington.:D

So will there even be any event held at the hall this july?

The HOF voting will be announced tomorrow 1/9/2013. That is Keith writing an article tongue in cheek. This year could be the largest inducted in a long time.

Joe

These were linked to the article.

http://baseballpastandpresent.com/20...tion-forecast/

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...llecting_gizmo

"I am not casting stones from inside the glass house. I’m guilty, too. It was the day they gave the 1986 A.L. Rookie of the Year award to Canseco (whose moral standing in this mess has gradually gone from last place to about 4th from the top because he alone was utterly, if mercenarily, honest). One of the runners-up told me off-the-record “you do know that Canseco uses those drugs they give to the East German Women Swimmers, right?”

He didn’t even know they were called steroids.

I did what digging I could, and kept an ear to the ground, but how many sources were enough to tell that story?But in 1988, just after Ben Johnson was thrown out of the Seoul Olympics for a positive steroid test, I got a series of four sources – including some of her opponents – who told me that Florence Griffith-Joyner was just as steeped in scandal as was Johnson. I promptly went out and butchered the story. I was trying to write a revelation that should have sounded like “other Olympic runners say this” and included a recitation of the math that she was now breaking records so profoundly and so quickly that if the pace continued, by the year 2188, a runner would actually finish a race before she started it. Instead, I turned it into something that sounded like “I think she’s on them drug things.” She and her crew threatened suit, I retracted the story, and not long after Thomas Boswell of The Washington Post had the same experience with his “Canseco Cocktail” story. As well-meaning as we each were in trying to expose the putrid mess, we both set back its revelation by some (presumably small) degree. I’m sorry."

Olberman always has great stories to tell you about what he had first-hand knowledge of, after he's been scooped. Way too whiny, and now he tries to throw a legitimate writer under the bus. I think Tom Boswell can speak for himself, and he's probably thinking that right about now.

most of them did it some were cought some werent, the coaches, owners and MLB didnt care. So ..... I would of done it to if no one cared and I would get payed more money.

you cant watch your kid eat a bag of cookies before dinner and then as hes eating the last one yell at him.

They're the ones who decided they needed to cheat to compete. Now they are just paying the piper.

I'm considering heading to the HOF this summer to see Deacon White's enshrinement. I think it would be fantastic if no one were elected by the BB Writer's Association of America. It would seem fitting that Deacon joins with Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert, and no one else. Sharing the day with Bonds or Clemens, for example, wouldn't set as well with me. A shutout by the BBWAA would serve the steriod era players right (hopefully first of many shutouts). Perhaps the HOF will make a bigger deal over the Veterans Committee vote if that is all they have this year. Lastly, the town may not be as crazy for my visit this July. So here's to hoping for a BBWAA shutout :)

Don't forget the wild crowds that the Ford C Frink and Spinks award winners bring into town.

Nothing against you Joe because everyone does it, but I'd like to see one person positively identify a clean player during the "steroid era". You can't, I can't and no one here can name one person that was 100% without a doubt clean, so why even bother naming names. As soon as one player from the era was voted in, you opened the door for them all as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying there is at least one PED user in the Hall already and I don't even have to venture a guess, it's just very highly likely by now.

I'm going to go on a limb and say, Tim Wakefield.

"most of them did it some were cought some werent, the coaches, owners and MLB didnt care.".

EK, this is where you and a lot of other people are wrong.

Back then, (1991) the Commissioner knew things were going on and even had rules in place that banned steroids and PEDs. The problem was, the Players Association DID NOT want those rules, accept those rules or have their players vote on those rules. Why, because the players KNEW if they performed better that they would get paid more. So why would they vote against their own self interest?

So, the players didn't want to vote for banning steroids and other PEDs and to implement testing. On the other side, the owners didn't want to make a fuss about steroids because they KNEW the players didn't want testing and would probably go on strike if such a ban and testing were put in place. So, to keep the peace, the owners went along with the players.

So, in my opinion, ANY player who took steroids shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame and that is because they have already been rewarded with higher pay than they should have gotten and maybe even a longer life in baseball. For those who say that steroids didn't help everybody. I say false.

That is because compensation for Free Agents and for Salary Arbitration went up and THOSE numbers are based on the performance of your peers. So, for instance, if a player like Barry Bonds uses and gets paid more then people who perform just below his level will get a pay raise when they are Free Agents. Or, if a young guy puts up numbers like somebody just below Bonds then the agent for that player will submit his salary request to the Arbitrators and will use the stats of the other player/s as comparables and put in a high number for his salary request.

Nope, if I were in charge of MLB, I would consider EVERYBODY who played from 1991 (when Fay Vincent wrote the seven page set of rules) to 2004 (when the actual rules, testing and penalties were finally adopted) guilty and I would BAN THEM ALL. When I say ban, I mean not only from the Hall of Fame but also from ANY job in MLB or the Minors. I would also make them have to get special permission to even show up at a Major League stadium (like Pete Rose does now).

After I did this, I would say the ONLY way they would be allowed back in is if they submit to not only lie detector tests but actual brain scans. This way, if a person were lying about taking steroids or PEDs (I think a lot of guys would) then even if they passed a lie detector test (sociopaths often can) they probably couldn't pass a brain scan.

Brain scans have been able to show changes in a persons brain when they are lying even if the lie detector test doesn't. By doing this, we could weed out the people lying from those telling the truth and get a better idea of who put up numbers they wouldn't otherwise have if they hadn't used steroids.

Now, I know some guys who have a lot of money and/or who are sociopaths wont take the tests and wont care if they are banned. But a LOT of other former players will want to take these tests. A) because they either want to show they were clean and they don't want their names to be forever darkened with the idea that they MIGHT have used or B) because they actually want to get into the HOF or they actually want to work in MLB and be around the teams and players.

By doing this, a lot of guesswork would be taken out of who did and didn't cheat. Then the writers would have an easier time of deciding who deserves to be in the HOF and who doesn't and they can have a foot to stand on, at least for arguments sake, if they vote for a guy who admitted to using steroids.

David

Awesome

It was against the rules
 

However at the time most of these guys are accused of taking them there was no penalty. I think instituting a penalty after the fact is not right. I have very little disdain for these guys that did something in an attempt to make them better as opposed to the myriad of 1980's players that used drugs that made them worse ballplayers. If they were the best of their era they deserve to be in. The Hall is there to tell the history of the game and this IS part of the games history. Let the 'roiders in as well as Rose and Joe Jax.

sometimes you can be sure by looking at a player
 

I'll go with Juan Pierre.

It will be curious to see how things turn out. To me, Biggio and Piazza should be locks to get in, while Clemens and Bonds should be denied with a vengence. I suppose we'll know later today. Regardless of who gets in or is denied, I won't loose any sleep over it. The Hall has lost its luster in my view.

A straw poll taken about a month ago gave Bonds less than 40% of the vote, and Clemens even less than that. So their chances are virtually zero.

Excluding the announcers, with the three most recent inducties, we'll have an even 300 HOFers. It would be nice to lock it in there at 300 and add no more. Seriously, adding more will simply make me broke (see my collection focus). That said, I 100% agree that Biggio and Piazza will be enshrined this summer bringing the total to 302. I'm hoping the others on the ballot get at least one year to wallow in self-mysery, like time-out for a toddler.

It feels like the "REAL" HOF is comprised of those that made it into the Hall the first year they were eligible via BBWA, well, at least in the last few decades. Clemens and others, if they get in, will have to be "second-ballot" HOFers, which is like a lower class HOF.

The American way of "innocent until proven guilty" makes this whole process very difficult, since most players have never been proven guilty of taking PEDs, there have only been rumors of guilt. Since we'll never "know" who took PED's during the era, do we actually assign a "guilty until proven innocent" mantra? I doubt it. Suspicion of PED-use cannot dictate whether or not a player gets in, in my opinion. Then again, it's the BBWA that decides, so I'm guessing that I'd be a minority if I were a voter.

How many players in the Hall used amphetamines in the "Ball Four" days?

LOL, pretty much all of them, including Mays, Aaron and Mantle.

I know it's a long shot, but I would love to see Dale Murphy get in. Yes, his stats are not as good as others, but his character and integrity are second to none.

I suppose they only enabled performance, not enhanced it. I get it.

I would think that any drug that enables performance, pretty much by definition, also enhances said performance. I'm glad you get it because I sure don't. :confused:

+1

Maybe the writers can explain?

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think there's too much money to be lost by NOT electing anyone new.. And the Hall of Fame IS a business. I think if everybody falls short, that the numbers may be fudged to make sure at least 1 BBWAA player is elected. I also suspect that this also may have happened before. I think that a case could be made for Dawson, Gossage, and Sutter possibly fitting this category. They were all VERY borderline and questionable inductions, who coincidentally were inducted in years in which the BBWAA would've otherwise elected no one..

Unless, they're willing to let a statement be made, and force change in the voting process.

Whether it be legitimately, or conspiratively, I think at least Biggio gets in this year..

PED's
 

If Bonds and Clemens get in then you need to get Pete Rose, and Shoeless in there since what they did in my opinion is no where as damaging then what Bonds, Clemens...did to the game. It's one thing to go from hitting a home run once every 17 at bats to one every 7 at bats and looking like did. As someone said last night on the MLB network, PED's are the nuclear weapons of all the drugs ever used in baseball.
I think Aaron's record along with Marris should still be the records that count.
Happy collecting :D

i don't think it's a conspiracy but I agree there is clearly a tendency to relax standards with a weak field. I think Biggio's 3000 hits get him in, first ballot.

I didn't know steroids improved your eyesight and eye-hand coordination. You still have to hit the ball. Besides, it wasn't ever against any rules back then. Nothing was in place. I'm not saying it was right , but it wasn't against the rules. The best of that era should still get into the HOF.

Gaylord Perry actually cheated against the rules and he is in !
Players use Ritalin to concentrate better, and eye surgery to see better. Didn't Tiger Woods have lasik to improve to 20/10 eyesight. Doesn't this give these players an advantage making contact with the ball ! Why is it OK to improve by these means and not others ?

I bet these numbers are low because some guys didn't respond truthfully. But it's football, so we don't care.

"In a survey that guaranteed confidentiality, 2,552 former pro football players answered questions on their use of performance-enhancing steroids and the musculoskeletal injuries they suffered during their playing years.

Among the ex-players, 9.1 percent said they had used steroids, with certain categories of players more likely to report using the drugs. For example, 16.3 percent of offensive linemen admitted using steroids, as did 14.8 percent of defensive lineman.

The high-water mark for steroid use occurred in the 1980s, when about one in every five players, 20.3 percent, said they had tried the drugs. Use declined in the 1990s and beyond to 12.7 percent of players, the researchers reported."

Nate Silver weighs in on the issue.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...a-out-of-hall/

I think they need to get rid of the 10 player minimum. And probably change the votes. I think once you give a player your vote, it should stick throughout their entire candidacy. This isn't about comparing players that are on the same ballot, it's about who deserves to be in the HOF..

I've seen WAY too many articles from these voters, where they've mentioned how they voted for someone in the past, but not this year(sometimes, for no reason whatsoever). In the cases where damaging evidence comes out won't matter, because they still won't be gaining votes to get in(although I could see the possibility of petitioning to be allowed to remove someone) Once you cast your vote that you think that someone IS a HOFer, it should stick.. Removing the limits could eliminate this problem on it's own though....

Also, if a voter turns in a ballot with NO names, then it shouldn't count towards the total. The guys that don't turn theirs in, don't count towards the totals, so why should an empty one? My feeling is that the guys who turn in empty ballots are mostly just doing so to be D1CKS...

Insidethewrapper,

1) Supposedly there are some steroids that do help with vision. I think it is some sort of steroid given to horses.

2) Even if they don't help your vision they DO help prolong a career. Look at baseball players BEFORE the Steroid Era and what you will find is that most of them have a similar arc; they put up their best stats when they were in their late 20's, had their performance drop some over the next few years and then started to really tail off after the age of 35. Now look at the Steroid Era.

Like Keith Olbermann said in his blog article (which was posted earlier). In the Steroid Era you had big guys hitting Home Runs MUCH farther than they had before. You had smaller middle infield - typo players hitting more Home Runs than they ever had and also hitting opposite field Home Runs where they had hardly ever done that. Most telling of all, you had guys over the age or 35 putting up better stats than they had at the age of 25. That just does not happen in normal baseball.

Johhny Bench and Yogi Berra were retired by the age of 35. Jimmie Foxx was pretty much done by the age of 32. Yet there Barry Bonds was putting up numbers NO ONE had ever put up before.

If you look at the research, baseball players' peaks usually come between the ages of 26 to 29. This is because their bodies have matured and they have played enough games that their experience helps them. After the age of 30, most mens metabolism starts to slow down (so gaining weight is easier and losing it is harder). A little later in their 30's, the testosterone production starts to fall. So these things added to the fact that reflexes also start to slow accounts for why baseball players stats drop over time as they get older.

Then there are cases like Barry Bonds.

During Bonds first 11 years in MLB, he had a high of 46 Home Runs and had hit 40+ Home Runs in three different seasons. During what most player's peak years would be (26 - 29) Bonds hit 25, 34, 46 and 37 Home Runs, respectively. Notice that the 46 Home Runs were his high to that point of his career and came in his age 28 season.

Now look what happens later.

Ages 30 -34, Bonds hits 33, 42, 40, 37 and 34 Home Runs, respectively.

Ages 35 - 39, Bonds hits 49, 73, 46, 45 and 45.

So, he hti at or above his career high in HR's every year while ALSO getting fewer pitches to hit (because pitchers were walking him so much).

This isn't to even mention the increase in the actual size of his head and feet. I don't know how old you are but I am in my mid - 40's and the size of my head and feet hasn't increased since I was a teenager. Yet a guy on the Giants said that Bonds hat and shoe size increased in his later years. Years when MOST people's bones have already matured and fused together so that growth CAN"T happen.

Finally, people say that there weren't rules against steroids before 2004. WRONG. Google Fay Vincent and steroids and see what you come up with. There are a couple of interesting articles, one of which talks about Bud Selig when he was the owner of the Brewers.

David

According to ESPN today, Dale Murphy will not get enough votes to even stay on the ballot for next year, much less ever make it in to the Hall. Hard to imagine Billy Williams in the Hall and Dale Murphy not.
I predict Biggio and Piazza get in with Jack Morris close. That's it. No Raines, Walker, Palmeiro, Clemens,Trammell, Bonds, Sosa, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez or Schilling.

One of the big benefits of steroids is to help in the healing process or to mask minor injuries. I was prescribed steroids for 3 months last Feb/March/April hoping to heal my ankle, which ultimately did not work as I eventually tore the tendon on the outside in half.

But what did happen is after that shot in the tendon, within 6-8 hours, I felt completely healthy, with no limitations on activity.

So if you were a ball player with a slight injury you could take a steroid shot, perhaps at first legally prescribed by a doctor, and then later illegally and you feel 100%. This would be a huge benefit somewhere around game 100 in July for a ball player.

You may have read that wrong. He won't be on next year's ballot because this year is his 15th and final year to be eligible on it...

I think they (the PED) all should get in, if they have the numbers to get in that is. They were the best of their time. We arent comparing bonds to ruth here, we are comparing bonds to those he played with.

Here is a letter i wrote to the HOF and some others - that I got some good feedback from.



I know this will have no influence over any voting as current members and writer’s only vote, but I felt I had to express my opinion and observations not for myself but for my son who is 3 years old.

I’m 38 years old and live in New York, I grew up a big Mets fan and I got to see the Mets win the World Series when I was a kid. God I loved watching baseball and that was some team to watch. A lot of those players drank and did drugs, cocaine specifically. I also watched players cork their bats and fill their bats with batteries to give them an advantage at the plate. It was baseball and fun to watch. Players always did and always will do what they have to do to get an advantage.

I have seen Mike Scott scuff balls and of course there was the Joe Niekro incident when he was suspended for having a nail file in his pocket and scuffing the ball. Kevin Gross was caught with sandpaper, Gaylord Perry was famous for his spit ball as well.

I have heard stories from my grand father of how Mickey Mantle was a big drinker and Speed user and how Ty Cobb would sharpen his cleats so to give him an advantage sliding into second base. Many players back then did a lot of Amphetamines, this is not a secret and Amphetamines are also a PED.

Clarence Faber, Stan Covelski, and Burleigh Grimes are among the 17 pitchers who were allowed to keep throwing the spitball under a "grandfather" clause when the spitball was banned.

These players got caught, im sure this wasn’t the 1st time they cheated and im sure its wasn’t the last. I am also sure that there are others that have done the same and gotten away with it. Everyone who cheats dosnt always get caught. There was that “list” with 100 players on it who were caught doing PED’s, but how many players werent caught? 200? 300? More? We will never know.

I can continue but I know you get the jist of this. Corking bats, stuffing bats with batteries, throwing spit balls and scuffing balls is cheating. And yes so is PED’s.

I now see players drinking “Protein drinks” to get an edge. I see players on the bench drinking cans of red bull to get them selves UP for their next at bat. Is this also performance enhancing?

A player has always done and will always do whatever they can to have an advantage. This will never change. Weather its, sharpening his cleets, corking bats, popping speed, snorting cocaine, doing steroids, or HGH and whatever is the next thing that comes around that can enhance a player’s performance. And make no mistake there will be more PED down the road.

Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Piazza, Griffy, Biggio, Bagwell, Clemens, Maddux, Smolts, Glavin, Arod, Shefield, Manny, etc – Some were caught some were not, Some did it some maybe didn’t, they were all great and a part of the history of the game and were some of the best players in baseball history.

I hope when my son is old enough I can take him to the Baseball Hall of fame and not only show him Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, but also the amazing players that played when I was a kid.

But Like I said I know this letter will have no impact, so if some of the greatest players of all time never get voted into the Hall Of Fame, when I bring my son I will also have to bring my old news paper clippings and baseball cards of players who I watched and who put up some amazing numbers. I will have to teach him on my own what players were dominant during their time. Or maybe there will be another Baseball Museum I can go to with all the great players.

I want my Son to know the history of baseball, just like I was told about “The Mick” Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and all the others. I will tell him about Bonds and Mcgwire and the rest of the 1990’s players who also put up amazing numbers. He will know how great and dominant they were and also what they did, just like I know how great Cobb and Mantle were but also what they did.

Hopefully the HOF will continue to have all the best players that have played the game to be on display. A history and showcase of the greatest players ever. …That’s the whole concept isn’t it? If not I hope there will be a place I can take my son to show him all these players in baseball history who were the elite of their time. Weather they sharpened their cleets, scuffed balls, threw spitters, corked bats, popped speed, snorting cocaine, drank Red Bull, took caffeine pills, used caffeine inhalants, did steroids, or HGH. And what ever comes next.

They are all the greatest players to ever play this game.

Isn’t the Halls Motto "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

Yours truly,
A Huge Baseball Fan

Steve from Massapequa


PS – Banning Pete Rose from Baseball makes sense, keeping him from working for a team and out of the actual game is his sentence for betting on baseball BUT keeping him out of the HOF makes no sense at all – again the HOF is a history of the games best.

when sosa and mcgwire were chasing the HR record and the baseball interest was OFF the chart, EVERYONE looked the other way and enjoyed the money comming in.

+1

SHUTOUT, only the Eighth Time. First since 1996.

Biggio got 68 percent.

biggo 68.2, Bonds 36.2 , Clemens 37.6 , Mike Piazza 57.8, Curt Schilling 38.8

Jack Morris 67+ percent. Has 1 more year left

Joe

I think we're gonna see a big induction next year. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas all go in 1st ballot. Biggio and Piazza get in next year as well(I think they were both 1st ballot sanbagged), Bagwell may go in(so that he and Biggio go in together).. I think Morris has pretty much peaked. I don't think he gets in next year.

Mussina and Kent will probably be the only 1st timers for next year, to stay on the ballot.

I'm against PED use, but I still find it weird Biggio ends up with almost twice the vote as Bonds. Just my two cents.

Just another reason to never step foot in the Baseball HOF!

I think the best of each era should get in. The best 1% of each era. You can't compare 19th Century players with current players or Deadball era vs live ball era.
The ballpark you play in is also a "big" factor. Jack Morris in Tiger Stadium, Babe Ruth or any left hand hitting Yankee at the short right field fence. I think under 300 feet ! Even now Granderson hitting over 40 in New York.

How about players with "Tommy John Surgery ". Do they have an unfair advantage over players without the surgery ? Will they be banned in the future ? After the surgery, many are much better pitchers and throw with greater velocity because they physically changed their body.

Guess 3000 hit's isn't the first ballot barometer......or are there questions about Biggio and PED's? Surprised at the low number for all the PED guys. Gonna be a long time (if ever) for them...........

yea im feeling the same way - this is a joke. The Best PLAYERS of the era are supposed to be in. Its History. Not suposed to be a popularity contest. Damn cobb would never get in today i guess.

The sign in Cooperstown states :" The Birthplace of Baseball ". We know that is a lie. Also Abner Doubleday is not the inventor of baseball. another lie which Cooperstown is based. So you can lie, but not gamble or take steroids. I think that is interesting.

I think that there should be a "new HOF" run by someone else who understands baseball and how history needs to be written.

Clemens and Schilling get more votes than Bonds?He will never get in.

It is not under 300 feet.

Not everyone. Some people thought they were legit - an anomaly of TWO superhuman hitters appearing at the same time. Stuff like that happens in sports and the rarity makes it that much more interesting. Hindsight is 20-20, but at the point where it was ONLY McGwire and Sosa, we, as baseball fans, enjoyed it - how could you not? Then Bonds one-up'd them. That's when my eyebrows raised a bit. I would argue that if no HR records were broken by the steroid guys, we would forgive the pitchers such as Clemens, and he would get voted in, simply because he didn't invalidate any power numbers.

As far as Bonds, McGwire and Sosa not getting in the hall - the big difference between their brand of cheating and what guys in the past did (amphetamines, booze, gambling, etc.) is that they invalidated some sacred numbers, and numbers are what baseball is all about: 714, 61 - if you give one of those two numbers to someone my age, they respond with 'Ruth' and 'Maris'. Impossible to think of anything else.

Message needed to be sent
 

This day was needed to help send a message to all of America's youth and currently pro athletes - "Don't do it, its not right, and it will not be tolerated."

Had Clemens and Bonds got in, it would have sent a terribly wrong message to all our kids of today.

Now that the message has been sent, perhaps they will get into the Hall in another year. We'll see.

p.s. I will always toot my horn for Roger Maris and Bo Jackson - I can give many reasons they should be in the Hall. Fewer reasons they should not.

I figured Morris would at least jump up to 70-72% range, then get in next year. Now I'm not 100% sure with Glavine, Maddux and Thomas on the ballot. There may be too many names on the ballot for him to get in next year. Morris might finish just short in his last season, even with the usual push and while I disagree with him not being in, I could definitely see it happening due to a crowded ballot.

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Biggio has some questionable seasons in there too, a huge jump in homers at age 27 in 1993, then a career high in HR's at age 39? plus being teammates with the accused by some Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez and Ken Caminiti all in 1993? Also with the 93 Astros, Chris Donnells, named in Mitchell report.

Some voters are just blind to their own reasoning, not voting for players accused but assuming others are clean just because a half-assed report didn't name them, as if there were only two people dealing steroids in the 90's and if they didn't know you, you couldn't get them. Apparently baseball writers are also judges and the jury(not talking about stats here either)

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say, that they would be viewed in a better light had they not broken those records? If Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa finished with 60 in those seasons, or if Bonds finished his career with 713, then steroids wouldn't have been that big of a deal? That their actions would somehow have been less of an embarassment to the game?

I'm just busting your balls. To an extent. I don't think the final numbers really have to do much with anything. Maris hit 61 without steroids, albeit in more games than it took Ruth to hit 60. Mac, Sosa and Bonds each passed that record with them. Same for the all time records. Ruth set it against a bunch of white guys. Aaron against a more diverse, yet more watered down field, with more games in a season.. Bonds against and even more diverse(yet even more watered down) field, and even more games in a season, while on steroids. Point is, we know all the facts behind these numbers and that won't change. Neither set of numbers, diminishes the others.. Personally, I think it would've been worse had they NOT passed those numbers..

if the "HOF" thinks current players arent doing HGH now (since there is no test) and once there is a test for HGH they wont find another PED to improve their game, then they arent paying attention.

Its about being the best and doing everything to get an advantage. Jeter faking getting hit by a pitch, trying to get a little more pine tar on your bat, spitting on your next pitch, downing a can of red bull before your next at bat.

Its time to judge the players numbers - if you want to go back into the HOF and pick at players for doing drugs, or "cheeting" and kicking guys out for it , there will be not many left in your museum

David, you've read things into my post that weren't there. Busting my balls is okay, but bust them over something I said.

Yes, the power numbers are sacred. You mentioned the problems surrounding Maris' breaking of Ruth's record, which resulted in an '*' in the record books - just another illustration of how important these numbers are to baseball fans.

No, if the numbers had been lower, it would NOT have made steroids acceptable. Many (most?) board members think Bonds should be in the HOF anyway. If he had not broken the two HR records, I think even more people would be in favor of allowing him (and the others) in. It's just my opinion, but I'm sticking with it.

Just stop and think how great baseball really is - have you ever, EVER heard of or read a discussion - or criticism - of who was or wasn't elected to the FOOTBALL or BASKETBALL Halls of Fame?

For the most part. That's exactly what I thought you meant the first time. The wording in my response may have been a bit sarcastically extreme, but at it's core, what you just said, is exactly what I meant.. Maybe I was wrong in wording it that steroids would've been more acceptable, but you pretty much just backed up that the PLAYERS who used them would be..

ESPN just posted a great article.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_...b-hall-fame-be

Am I the only one that thinks Frank Thomas was a "monster" hitter?

Certainly for the first half of his career. He was headed for truly elite status, but his second half was not nearly as productive, I believe he missed a year due to injuries and while he still had some good seasons after that, it wasn't at the same level.

I'm one of the keep 'em all out people. I equate amphetamine / greenies more like a stronger form of coffee. I've never seen any kind of stat where after amphetamines were banned, some kind of baseball statistic such as strikeouts, home runs, batting average suddenly went down. So that tells me that the effect of these on the "numbers" in baseball was negligible. (If someone does have some stats on these, please correct me.) However, steroids was completely different. All of the numbers went up, way, way up, and since they have been banned, no one has approached 60 home runs again. That shows that the effect of steroids on the game was huge, and if you used it, you shouldn't get rewarded for it by being inducted into the Hall of Fame. This is not about being a likeable person or not (e.g., Cobb), but just that if you were on 'roids, your numbers were not genuine.

I really thought Biggio would get in. I didn't think he was associated w/ steroids or had that kind of body type. Maybe next year. I am also hoping that Morris is able to get in next year although it looks tough. I think next year Maddux and Glavine make it in, but the Big Hurt is left off.

Okay, so crucify me.

Well, at least I don't have to devote any financial resources toward a Jack Morris or Mike Piazza card. I can now apply all those HUGE savings toward my upcoming Deacon White purchase!!! ;)

How is Frank Thomas going to get in next year if Mike Piazza didn't?

Well, at least I received four votes,.

It also sent a message saying that the best players aren't good enough to get in. How does a 3k hitter not get in for example...Hall is a joke. They need to change the balloting system.

That's 3 more than Aaron Sele got. :)

Hof
 

This article sums it up for me...I agree with Stark.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_...b-hall-fame-be

Hank

The HOF had a contingency plan in place in case of the shutout. I personally like the idea. It will be a fun weekend for this pre-war guy.

"As part of the Induction Weekend ceremony Sunday, July 28, at the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, N.Y., in which three Pre-Integration Committee electees – umpire Hank O’Day, New York Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert and 19th-century player Deacon White – will be inducted, the Hall of Fame will recognize 12 individuals previously counted among its roster of members who never had a formal induction due to wartime restrictions. They are BBWAA electees Lou Gehrig (1939) and Rogers Hornsby (1942), along with the entire class of 1945 selected by the Committee on Old Timers: Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Hughie Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O’Rourke and Wilbert Robinson."

Piazza didn't get in because he has always been surrounded with PED speculation. Frank Thomas has never been associated with PEDs and he continues to be one of the criminally overlooked players of all time. The guy was a monster. Back to back MVPs with 3 additional top 3 finishes. He hit 40 homers 5 times, drove in 100 runs 8 years in a row and 11 times in his career.

Absolutely a HOFer.

Too good to be true
 

I think the voters thought (wrongly) that if a player has amazing stats like the Big Hurt or mr. Piazza, then it's simply too good to be true, so they must have used steroids!

Ridiculous that Biggio didn't get in. He did get caught drinking and driving once. Perhaps that's why he was snubbed! The ESPN article nailed it.

It was the first ballot thing. He'll get in next year. I think Piazza's low numbers were due to first ballot as well. I think he'll get over 70% next year(and possibly get in)

Not one shred of evidence against either. Speculation can easily be started about most players from their era...how do you draw that imaginary line?

Positionally, Piazza is so much better than Frank Thomas. Piazza is arguably the greatest hitting catcher of all time.

The HOF voters obviously sent a message with Piazza's case, a big guy, why would Thomas not go through the same thing?

Completely agree, Piazza seems very suspicious.

Regarding Bonds, he was the only 400 400 man in baseball history before season's end 1998. He had also won 8 GG and 3 MVPs, all prior to when Game of Shadows (which should not be taken as fact) alleged he started using. I'm not a Bonds lover, but think it will be absurd if he and Clemens do not eventually make the Hall.

How do you really know when Bonds took his first steroid? Maybe he started in the late 80's...maybe early 90's? The fact that he took at all brings his whole career into question.

You could go the other way and say how do you know if he took any. Remember people tend to forget that he never got "caught."

Without a doubt you are right...you would be in the extreme vast minority becasue of the overhwleming circumstantial evidence, but you are right.

True lol