Helmar Boston Garter Cobb and others...
 

I see this Cobb and think how great looking these cards are. I really like them for exactly what they are. I know some others don't care for them. However I would like to see the boards approval or disapproval as I am curious. When voting just keep in mind what they are intended to be, I believe, which is fine, modern creations of some great players and cards. They certainly aren't meant to deceive. Anything that adds value, in a legitimate way, to our hobby is a good thing (to me).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/H813-4-Bosto...item1c2d4909f7



.

What's the history with these? I've seen a few in the past, but don't know the back story. Please elaborate- who produces Helmar, what year, how many produced, etc

I like them.I haven't purchased any but I placed a bid or two on some nice Virginia League ones.I would rather buy a Prewar card but some of these have really cool images.

I really wish they weren't listed as "Pre-WWII (Pre-1942)" era, since they are being made right now. I wouldn't totally say that "they certainly aren't meant to deceive" when they are listed in this manner.

I like them but have no desire to collect them. Hence, I had to vote "I don't care". :confused:

Yeah, no matter how the question was phrased I knew confusion would exist so I tried to take the Keep-it-Simple method. The question doesn't pertain to if you want to collect them only if you like them. Otherwise it would have said "do you want to, or do you, collect them" ......thanks for everyone's thoughts so far.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I almost wish they were more mass-produced. I could see myself collecting them if they were priced closer to modern cards. I suppose the fact that they aren't mass-produced is what has created the niche market.

History/info, please....

Michael- Everything is posted in the link at the bottom of the auction.....and the creator has been on the board before too. Best regards

I think they're great. I agree that they expand the vintage market to a certain degree. They are clearly marked as well. I have picked up a couple of the L1 like leathers that they have made. Just looking at them on the internet, you don't really get the full effect of the craftsmanship of them. They are well made items.............

I voted that I like them, but that is for what they are.

I hate that when I am searching PreWWII I have to put "-helmar" in my search otherwise it gets saturated by these things. Ebay has a policy against this in their "Seach and Browse manipulation policy". Yet we know they don't enforce their own policies. If they did then any one that has "SGC 4 (Not PSA)" would also be breaking the rules yet the site is saturated with these listings.

Ebay really needs to enforce their own policies if they want to make it a better site.

Leon, as someone who has created his own card sets, yes, I like them - they are wonderfully done, capture 'vintage', and what's not to like?

But while I like the actual physical cards, I don't get the prices. I commend the creators for getting the most $$$ possible from their idea, but I selfishly would like to see an undistressed affordable 'set' of their fantasy Boston Garters or '33 Goudeys. If the price were right, I would buy some.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/H813-4-Bosto...ht_1142wt_1184

thanks guys, i've been brought up to speed now...they're stunning. love this Rube Foster!

Here's a previous thread with some good info, as well as a few posts from a Helmar representative, Charles.

I agree with some of the sentiments already stated:

I think they are very cool
I would never buy them due to the crazy prices
I have less of an issue with them being in the pre War category than topps/modern mass produced issues/pokemon crap

This is the one I purchased. I like them to a point, I wanted something a little different and looks vintage. Some I'm not impressed. I have no plans to collect more than a 3-4 tops, maybe a wagner, matty young etc...but as a modern card I won't pay very much, I think I paid $40 for this one, adds a little to my collection.

Pre-WWII does deceive a little and when the dealer throws in the past "sold" price, it bothered me a tiny bit. But I got my card. I do think they should list it in a modern era.

Helmar, sporting life etc
 

I'm kind of surprised at how well these cards are received. I would much rather have a 1975 Topps Jose Cruz in PSA 2 MC or a Paul Pierce 2nd year refractor in SGC 82. I'd rather that ebay list them with other modern cards.

I thought these things were going to be trashed on the board, but am pleasantly surprised at how many folks like them.

I voted that I like them. I think a lot of them look really nice and would be a great compliment to a prewar collection, especially displayed on a shelf alongside authentic prewar cards.

The prices keep me from buying any of them. Like others have said, I would rather spend the money on an actual vintage card. If I could pick up a nice Matty or Cobb Boston Garter Helmar for $10.00 I might do it, but the bigger stars always seem to go much higher.

Strictly looking at the card as artwork, these have appeal to me. I have attempted to pick up the Matty version, but the three sold have sold for significantly more than I would be willing to pay for them ($205, $255, $350). While I would never collect many of these art cards, select ones do appeal to me.

I have seen more than a couple that I found quite well done. If I stumbled on one in a lot purchase or some such, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. However, I agree 100% that they shouldn't be listed in the Pre-War listings on eBay. I don't filter them out but sometimes they are a pain in the butt.:D

I like them but they don't belong in the Pre-WW2 section of eBay. I understand why they're there (to appeal to us). But I think they shouldn't be.

I have to agree - I like them for the looks and style, but I would never pay more than $5 or $10 for one. Just because they will only make a max of 4 per year doesn't mean that they are rare.

Thats actually pretty rare...

I like them, but don't like the price.:(

Joe

I sure do like them after seeing a lot of them this evening, on the bay. I don't think I like them enough to pay the amount they go for but.... they sure are purty...(sic) Maybe they will mass produce some in the future and the prices will come down a little.

I think these things are great, love looking at them, just won't pay the price. I tried to get the Pirates version of the "die-cut" as they're referred to. It's basically six t206 photos on a nice background. I think I gave up around $25 though, my highest price I'd pay for that one.

I have a feeling the Jim Thorpe Boston Garter just listed will fetch a small fortune. I also have no problem with them being in vintage because they are interesting items.

I voted that I like them. I don't own any and haven't bid on any only because I feel that owning one or a few modern remakes is not worth it to me. Same reason that I would not buy a T206 reprint card. I would however purchase a complete set of T206 reprints or a Helmar set if one was ever made. I know that the single cards are limited but hopefully when no more new ones are produced, that a special limited edition set of all cards would be made with a slight difference on the back such as a serial number to tell the limited first prints from the limits sets. I would then purchase a set.

I think they are great, just too pricey.

This one might involve just a tad of 'deception', but if I were collecting the '33 Goudey set, it would make a good filler:

1933 Goudey Lajoie

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/R319-Helmar-B...,,!~~60_12.JPG

I think they're nice looking items and as long as no one purchasing them thinks they are rare or old or an investment, there is no harm. To me, they occupy the same niche as the 1950-56 Callahan, 1960-61 Fleer, 1961 Golden Press, and 1974 Laughlin Old Time Black Stars cards. That said, I cannot see buying one since there are so many actual vintage cards I want to buy given the prices of the ones I would be interested in owning. For example I saw a Clemente went for over $100--I could buy a genuine vintage Clemente in similar condition for less than that. I might consider a purchase of one of a living player if I was interested in getting it signed. I also like the Negro Leaguers issued as vintage cards of those players are basically so rare and so pricey that it is not realistic for most collectors to collect anything except a tribute type card anyway.

The thing I don't quite get is why most unlicensed collector-issues are pretty much completely ignored, while these are treated like gold. I get the artwork, limited runs, vintage players, artificially aged thing. But still, we're talking about cards that in terms of the standard catalog, (I assume)by rule, wouldn't be included. Or if listed, should technically be listed as having "no value", just like every other collector issue or modern fantasy piece..

I think the answer lies in design, quality, player selection and a direct tie to classic sets of the past. Also the fact that the seller knows what he is doing in terms of selecting key Negro League figures with no cardboard (or limited) history. These are more than a reprint like issue, to me they are a quasi-card/artwork/etc.

To me there are a lot of things in the hobby that boggle, it just depends on what you like. Print freaks, scrap, backs as opposed to fronts, it's a big tent. I don't find the prices being paid hard to believe at all.

At that extent(aside from print runs), what "really" separates them from the Klector/Miller Press/Monarch Corona or the modern Zeenut things? Or even those crayon drawings that have been discussed in the forums?

I have never held one of those issues in my hand bf so this is a guess but I would say quality. Also they have now developed an "inertia" based on past sales.

that's a good point.. I guess the track record as far as demand speaks volumes about how they should be viewed..

If the Helmar guys had simply created a set of Boston Garter cards, no distressing them, and sold that way, they might perform sale-wise, similarly to other vintage-wanabe issues. However, as Adam pointed out, they do fill in some missing niches. Could be that the Helmar guys read our board about fantasy cards we'd like to see, and gave them to us.

I sure would love to get an Old Judge Hugh "One Arm" Daily card in case anyone is listening. Maybe an Ed Beecher OJ, so I have all the 1887 Pittsburgh Alleghenys players in the same set. I have his Buchner card but I know it gets shunned when I'm not around

I voted, "like," with the following caveat:

If I were at a show, saw one that appealed to me, and the price was an amount I was willing to part with...I would buy it.

For reasons already mentioned in this thread, I am not entirely comfortable with the manner in which they have been listed for sale. Please pardon my pet peeve on this; however, I do appreciate accuracy throughout the entire listing.

As an aside...I occasionally think back to a similar situation from many years ago. I was at a show and a dealer had something in his case that I had only ever seen in a movie. It was the fantasy card of Roy Hobbs which was depicted in the movie, "The Natural."

Unless I am much mistaken, that card has little or no value; however, I do wish I had picked it up....just for its appeal to me.

Best Regards,

Eric

Buy a whole sheet (not mine)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baseball-car...item2577bba0fe

I sincerely appreciate the link; however, at that price, I would rather pick up vintage material. Now, if I saw one of the Roy Hobbs single cards at a show for $5-$10, I would grab it.

So, to further answer the Helmar question...and sorry to stray from that topic in the first place...yes, I like them; however, would not pay very much for them.

Best,

Eric

Sorry to reply to my own post; however, this particular Helmar piqued my interest quite a bit. It is priced just a bit too high for me to seriously consider purchasing...all things considered...although it is a nice contrast to the modern offerings being sold under the same name.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-L4-Leat...item51a41cf679

I love the images, but I don't like the way they are marketed and sold. And really, who knows how many of each card gets printed? The wording is vague. It's really a shame that more people can't enjoy these fantastic images. I would definitely collect these if they were printed in larger quantities and sold at a reasonable price. Until then, I'll pass and stick to vintage cards ...

Some interesting opinions here...
 

Thank you for all the input and thanks, Leon, for starting the thread. A few of the things I've read have really astonished me!

As I'm prone to tell anyone that talks to me for more than five minutes, I think that I have the best job in the world. Every day feels like I am eleven years old again, waking up on a late June morning, grabbing my mitt and badgering the first kid walking by my door to play a little catch. I'm pretty sure that even if 0% of the people liked the cards I make, I would still make them. It is very addictive and satisfying to be building a body of modest work. I've made many great friends through this experience and hope, over time, to make more.

I would find it hard to believe that what I do detracts from the hobby in any way. If anything, I believe that it brings a little vibrancy, a little fresh air to our collecting. Just because I make an art card of Eddie Grant, for example, the value or importance of other collections are not threatened or degraded. This is not a zero sum game; when I make a new card it does not mean that other cards are somehow less desirable. That is my opinion, at least.

A question has occurred to me a few times over the past couple of years: if there was some fellow, like me, who had been making cards like this back in the 1940's, for example, what would modern collectors think of them? I tend to think that they would be valued, perhaps quite highly. Well, the only difference between me and that hypothetical 1940's creator is a few decades. While I may be able to artificially age my creations, I can't make them genuinely old. Nature, however, will eventually take care of even that.

At the beginning of this post I mentioned that I was genuinely astonished at some of the comments. What surprised me was the idea that some of my cards should be more mass produced! My impression for the last twenty-five years is that they make too much of everything! Indeed, my idea of making just four cards a year and very publicly auctioning them (while spacing them out, at that) was my attempt at finding a reliable antidote to the problem that people could count on. In any event, I can't imagine doing much in the way of increased production. Certainly, in fact, for any series that I've made thus far. I think that it would disappoint the winning bidders of the "originals".

Thanks again for all your considered opinions, Charles from Helmar Brewing

I voted that I like them, because I do like the artwork. I like them in the same way that I like some of the TCMA stuff from the 70's (of the 60's :D),,,but I have to agree with the others about how much they go for. I wouldn't pay that much for any modern card (but to each their own, and more power to the seller).

The artwork is beautiful, and if these cards attract modern card collectors to the pre war side, that is a definite plus !!!

Sincerely, Clayton

I like 'em a lot. Have five or six. Best modern tribute cards going in my opinionated opinion. Too expensive? Charles starts the cards out at a few bucks. The marketplace determines the price. It's an expensive hobby in the first place. Manufactured scarcity? Perhaps, but the guy is entitled to make a living by selling limited editions, and at least he's not peddling some hotshot's hyped-up 1 of 1 junk refractor. Some of the artwork resonates with me the same way as old tobacco cards or Goudeys. Shouldn't be in the vintage category? Lots of stuff shouldn't be in vintage - those weird "Zeenuts" and silly wheat penny whatevers, not to mention the absurd BIN's and the regular inventory dumps of cards you've seen a million times. Must Charles "voluntarily deport" himself from vintage, or should eBay just put their house in order? Collect what you like? Okie-dokie.
I hope Charles keeps right on doing what he's doing which is helping the hobby stay vital. Those ersatz Boston Garters are pretty darn nice and about as close to a BG as most of us will ever get. Besides, how can you not love cards like these?

ETA: John Q. Public is my nom du internet. My real name is David McDonald.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...lon%20Cobb.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...ar%20Matty.jpg

i like them alot but i think they sell for way to much money in opinion

A couple more thoughts-

Charles- I certainly understand about not being able to mass produce at this point because you have committed them to being limited. Your first customers would be messed up price-wise if that were to happen. I totally agree. (love the artistic work my friend) Thanks for coming on the board and giving some more details and thoughts. Not everyone would come into the line of fire the way you have. That is commendable.

David McDonald- Well said. I love those cards. They look fabulous.

Most folks will never own the real things but since we are here.....

Personally, I like the way the cards are artificially aged. This is not done to deceive, but rather to shift the focus away from getting that "gem mint" card with razor sharp corners. It's puts the focus back on the artwork -- the colors, the poses, the players, the colorful backgrounds -- and presents a card that appears "well loved", so to speak.

I found it curious that no one had any concerns over the '33 Goudey Lajoie. It looks, well, kind of a whole lot like the real card, except for the back.

Am I missing something?

Charles, it's the nature of the internet to bash everything that you don't personally collect. If you read some of the other threads, you'll find that E97 collectors bash T206 collectors, pre-war memorabilia collectors bash modern game-used collectors, everyone bashes the Cowboys and the Yankees, old established members bash newbies, etc., etc..

Thanks for the explanation - makes perfect sense to keep putting them out slowly, and the baseball artwork is probably the best I've seen anywhere. Still, not paying those prices.

Charles,

I don't believe your cards detract from the hobby at all. Like Greg's paintings, they represent some of the best baseball art I've ever seen, and they do a remarkable job of recreating in color an era we typically see only in black and white. I'm quite familiar with your images because I very much enjoy looking at them ...

But I don't understand creating such limited prints runs — and with such vague language about the numbers: "No more than just 6 of this card will be made and sold during a 12 month period. Most likely the number will be only 3-4."

As for mass-production, I recall when Helmar cards first came out, they were printed in fairly large numbers and were very affordable. The images were great, but the production was poor. It seemed like cards were made from styrofoam.

Keep in mind, this is a hobby that's been hit card by many scandals (see grading companies, auction houses, fake cards, fake rarities, altered cards, etc.), so collectors — including myself — are bound to be wary of something that was produced yesterday and sells for a pretty penny.

Attachment 79153


Charles Sirraffles,

I like the artwork and would be a buyer if the medium were s/n lithograph in mint condition. I am not really a big fan of professionally distressed cards because they remind me of cards like this Lone Jack reprint. When I look at it I almost think I'm looking at a vintage card. I think you've obviously done well as getting 61% of people to approve of something is quite an accomplishment.

Uh, here's one of mine...
 

del...(bad idea)

I could see many people buying these with the intent of reselling to novice collectors as vintage items. Why would they be listed on ebay in any catagory but modern ? That is also deceiving the public listing them in "pre-WWII" listings. I don't think they should be printed, that's my vote.

To me, a reprint by any other name is still a reprint, and manufactured scarcity doesn't do much for me either. But if people like them, that's great, everyone's mileage varies.

What has the maker of these cards have to say as to why they are listed in the "pre WWII" listings on eBay ? They are not "pre war " cards. This only misrepresents the product. Makes collectors think they are old. Bad for the hobby.

I disagree, if I was the maker I would list them where the people who would most likely be interested in buying them browse, the prewar section. I see no intent to deceive.

I've bought a few, had absolutely no doubt they were new fantasy-type pieces and most likely would not have seen them initially if he listed them anywhere else.

I pretty much agree with Peter's assessment. Although I voted don't like, they really are kind of nice looking. But I don't like the manufactured scarcity angle. If you want to reprint something have a print run of 500 or so and sell them for say $19.95 each. That's the whole point of a reprint- to make what might otherwise be a very expensive piece affordable to anyone who wants one. To make a reprint and have it as scarce as some of the originals it copies seems kind of phony to me. But I have no problem with the artwork, there is a definite skill level there.

Edited to add they are technically not a reprint of any known card, but one of a familiar design.

I think that some people "get it" and others don't. Rather than rehash aspects covered in old threads, I'll leave it at that. Thank you, everyone, for weighing in. Every opinion has been valuable! Charles

Barry I agree that they are nice looking and of high quality, but to me that's beside the point. Perhaps modern-produced might be a better term than reprint, but either way they are not of the period and therefore, in my opinion, no better than a reprint and in a way even more gimmicky. Pseudo-vintage, one might call it. Just my opinion and not looking to convince anyone. As Hal Lewis used to say, buy what you like, but this thread invited opinions.

Not true Barry. The '33 Lajoie is a reprint. I'm guessing there are others, but I don't really follow the Helmars that closely.

No, that Lajoie is not a reprint. It is from a painting that we did where the customer specifically asked for a painting of that card. Looks pretty good, eh?

+1

Yes, almost exactly like the card. Not comparing it closely to an authentic one, it certainly fooled me.

I'm surprised how many others also have sleep issues :)

The 1933G Lajoie was available to anyone who mailed in requesting one. The only reason it is so scarce is that only a limited number of people cared enough to ask. If more collectors wanted them, they would have made enough to satisfy the demand.

In the case of these Helmar cards, if only four or so of each is made, there are nowhere enough to fill the demand. Thus an artifical scarcity has been created. There's a distinction.

I love the look of the Helmar cards, but i consider them modern cards and would never pay the price for what they are going for. If they were $9.99 i would collect the Yankees in Helmar, but not at the insane prices people are bidding them up to.

Barry, I wasn't referring to scarcity - I was referring to the actual Helmar copy of the '33 Lajoie, which we've been told is made from a painting of a real card (which is also basically a 'painting', but of a photo).

Oh, the Helmar one. Sorry about that.:o

I had decided that this card WOULD make a good filler in my progressing 33 goudey set and was in the process of psyching myself up for a last second bid tonight, when it dawned on me that I should check the size.
These are 3"x3.6" inches according to the helmar website. "real" R319's are 2-3/8" x 2-7/8".

Just thought I'd post that as a warning in case anyone else had decided to use this card in their 33 set.

Just my inexperienced and very humble opinion here...the Helmar version lacks something which appeared on the original and should be fairly easy to spot...unless I am much mistaken. No confusing their version with the Goudey Lajoie.

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/...ajoie_0001.jpg

(I do not work for Helmar, know anyone from Helmar, own stock in the company, plan to enter into any position regarding equitable securities offered by the company, if any, within the next 72 hours, etc., etc., etc.)

Oh, additionally, the card pictured is (clearly) not mine.

Best,

Eric

Eric, you are right, and perhaps that's enough for some people.

I don't know if you were around for the huge fuss I created when I tried to create a set of Old Judge reprints. Even having them larger with stamps on the back AND an added identifying mark on the front, was not enough for some board members.

This Lajoie is damned close to the original, the same size, AND distressed.

Scott check out the post above by tonyo, the Lajoie isn't the same size as the original

Edited - thinking about this, I have no idea why I even posted on the subject. I have no plans to buy a Helmar, no concerns over any confusion anyone else may have over these, and the artwork is very impressive. I think it's kind of weird that Helmar would create a painting of a miniaturized painting, then miniaturize their own into a similar-sized card, but there are weirder things occurring in our hobby.

So....carry on.

I voted yes, I like them, because I do think they are nice artwork. However, like alot of others, I'd rather put larger money into cards that were actually made in the period they depict. I do have some reprint sets (52 topps, t206, CJ, T3, goodwin) but I paid less for all of those than the Lajoie finished last night.

Regardless, since I do like the cards, I thought the helmar Lajoie would be a nice replacement for a card I will never own as opposed to your run-of-the-mill reprint. (despite the missing lines in the background - thanks Eric, I didn't notice that, and a different # on the back)

I wouldn't have won it anyway since I had decided to bid $50 max and it ended at $56.........

BG Shoeless Joe
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/H813-4-Bosto...item1c2df73880

And only 6 days to go!
YIKES!

The premise that these cards, in some cases, command high premiums is due to their alleged scarcity. I have not collected any of these cards, so my question would be how hard would these cards be to duplicated by someone other than the original producer, in effect reducing their scarcity and diluting the value, and offering the reproductions in a secondary market or even ebay?

that's in insane hammer price on that one!!!

I've always thought whoever is making these is very smart...they are beautiful...well made...as advertised...BUT...i can't believe the prices people are paying for them...people are paying vintage prices...which in my opinion is stupid! over time it is my opinion they will depreciate in value!

The creator of these cards has mimicked the business model of the us govt...it's like printing money!!!!

Besides the legality issues those are some very nice fantasy cards and I am not sure how good a reprint would look. Almost $400 for a fantasy card is a lot but it really is a great looking card. They aren't for me but there seems to be a very strong market for these particular ones. Kudos to the maker of them.

......................
 

While some are very cool, i also see them as simply art. I do not think they should be listed (catagorized) the way they are. They have however created a nice little niche for themselves.

Insane prices, and check out the insane bidding patterns in his auctions. Hilarious in some cases !