Toughest 1940's & 1950's Baseball Autographs
 

I get asked this question alot, So figured I'd put it out there for anyone thats interested.
Obviously a subject for debate here but what I did is put together the collector "want lists" I have accumulated over the years and found the names that intersected the most.
Probably not the most "expensive" autographs from the 1940's & 1950's but certainly the toughest to find.
The names noted with a (*) ARE expensive in some cases VERY expensive and would easily eclipse many Hall of Fame autographs in terms of what they would cost IF you could find one. Have listed by debut year
1941) WIMPY QUINN
1943) CONNIE CREEDEN (*)
1944) JOHN FICK (*), CLANCY SMYRES (*)
1945) WOODY CROWSON (*)
1946) JOHN CARDEN
1949) JULIO GONZALES (*)
1951) EDDIE GAEDEL (*)
1955) WEBBO CLARKE (*), WENC GONZALES (*)
1956) CHARLIE PEETE
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Great list Jim, thanks for the info.

Jim, just curious but how hard is it to find an Eddie Gaedel autograph and if you could find one what ballpark range would it be as far a price?

JimStinson
 

Gaedel is near impossible, mostly because no one really considered him a ball player so he didn't get many autograph requests, plus he died young. The last ones that I remembered seeing sold brought in the $4,000-$6,000 price range on 3x5's. Likely he'd be more on a photo or something substantial

JimStinson
 

I looked up recent sales and a postcard photo of EG sold at auction a few years ago for almost $7,000 in very , very poor condition. This was part of the description that accompanied it
Gaedel was notorious for his surly disposition and was rarely interested in even talking to fans, let alone signing for them. This may explain why Gaedel signatures are virtually nonexistent, with literally fewer than ten examples known. Gaedel worked at the locally famous Midget Club on Chicago's Southside. He was mugged and murdered in 1961

I am trying to collect an auotgraph of every player who has debuted from 1946 to present. I only need 1948 Cubs Danny "Dummy" Lynch, 1949 Browns Ed Albrecht, and 1955 Senators Wence Gonzalez. So in my opinion those are the toughest. Other really tough ones not mentioned by Jim are Dizzy Sutherland and Bill Froats. Below are scans of my Eddie Gaedel Album page, John Carden on 1946 New York Giants team signed ball and Enrique Gonzalez on 1949 Washington Senators team signed ball. The thrill of finding one of these hard to find graphs is what makes this hobby so great.

JimStinson
 

NICE ! Thats the first Carden I can remember seeing ! Also thanks for pointing out BILL FROATS is extremely tough too !!!

Here's my Wimpy Quinn on a WWII Service team BB.

Ken

Elmer Gedeon or Bob Neighbors?

Gedeon, Neighbors, and Harry O'Neill all played in 1939.

Ken

JimStinson
 

yes....Harry O'Neill is SUPER tough ...but we are talking 40's and 50's ,,,(smile) O'Neill had his debut in 1939

Ergh. Sorry about that. I got my Gedeon and Neighbors cuts back from JSA today so I guess I'm just too excited.

I'll throw in another half-dozen real toughies -

Bob Katz - 1944 Reds - for a guy who played 12 seasons in the minors, he is incredibly tough to find. His 1962 death went unnoticed for years, and evidently his whereabouts after leaving baseball were unknown.

John Phillips - 1945 NY Giants - died in 1956; signature is virtually never seen, sometimes confused with Jack Dorn Phillips, who came later.

Howard "Dizzy" Sutherland - 1949 Senators - a DC cab driver given a chance by the Nats. Disappeared after leaving baseball. In the late 1970s, a Washington Post writer I knew did a small article on my search for him. A fellow who had dated Diz's daughter called me and told me where to find him - tending bar on the eastern shore of Maryland. I talked with Diz on the phone several times, he promised to sign for me, but never answered my several letters. I never got the chance to visit him, then I moved to Georgia, and Diz died shortly thereafter. Furman Bisher, who knew Diz when he pitched for Charlotte, told me that he (Dizzy) got his name naturally.

Herb Gorman - 1952 Cardinals - died of a heart attack during a game while playing with San Diego in 1953, less than a year after his one major league game.

Lino Donoso - 1955-56 Pirates - a Cuban, signed for Pittsburgh by scout Howie Haak in a Mexican whorehouse in 1953. After his Pirates stint, he only played one minor league season in the US, then went back to Mexico, where he died. He lived another 30+ years, but was never located by collectors.

Marcelino Solis - was with the 1958 Cubs for two months, which got him onto a 1959 Topps card. He didn't pitch in the US after 1960, returned to Mexico and disappeared. Good luck to any Cubs fan looking for the '59 Topps signed!

Attached is a Dizzy Sutherland and Herb Gorman from my collection. The Gorman is on the cover of a 1951 Hollywood Stars game program. The program is in perfect condition. The Gorman is a double, as I also have him on a GPC, so I would be willing to trade the autograph for other tough signers. I also have a full JSA letter with the program.

Other than the ones who died early, would you mind giving a quick blurb about why some of these guys are so tough? I think that'd be very interesting.

Thanks, Ken

JimStinson
 

Don't know how I missed HERB GORMAN (Thanks Tom), yes he should be on the list also and with an (*).
Lino Dinoso WAS tough for a long time and to a degree still is. I bought and sold about a dozen signed Dinoso documents a few years back so I may have single handedly removed him from the list (smile) at least for awhile.
Ken ...with regards to the reasons they are tough see Tom's post above which applies to most I've listed here. They either died young, or vanished after their short stint in the major leagues or BOTH. The exception being CLANCY SMYRES who just absolutely REFUSED to sign ANYTHING
1941) WIMPY QUINN
1943) CONNIE CREEDEN (*)
1944) JOHN FICK (*), CLANCY SMYRES (*)
1945) WOODY CROWSON (*)
1946) JOHN CARDEN
1949) JULIO GONZALES (*)
1951) EDDIE GAEDEL (*)
1955) WEBBO CLARKE (*), WENC GONZALES (*)
1956) CHARLIE PEETE

How do Harry Agganis autographs rate in scarcity?

Agganis autographs are rare but not as rare as the others. Even though he died young, he was a a college superstar at Boston University in both football and baseball, so he signed alot in college. So even though he had a short period to sign, he was a willing signer both in person and through the mail.

JimStinson
 

Particularly sad ending to Charlie Peete

The reigning 1956 batting average champion of the Triple-A American Association who received a one-month, 23-game trial with the 1956 St. Louis Cardinals of Major League Baseball, Peete was projected by some as the leading candidate to be the Cardinals' 1957 starting center fielder.[1] But he was killed in a commercial airplane crash near the Caracas, Venezuela, airport while flying to his winter-league baseball team in late November 1956; his wife, Nettie, and their three young children were also among the 25 victims of the crash

JimStinson
 

Also a few I will admit responsiblity for destroying the demand for
Chico Hernandez (1942 Cubs) Died Cuba 1986
Tommy Dela Cruz (1944 Reds) Died Cuba 1958
Tony "Mosquito" Ordenana (1943 Pirates) Died-Cuba
for buying and selling a collection that included DOZENS of autographs of each , and another all time toughie RAMON GARCIA (debut 1948) Bill C. actually did a private signing with him so .....Toughies no more

Jim,

are people who want these tough, short lived major league career players, are they collecting them to try to finish a team set from a certain year, or do they just want to collect the toughest players- period, or do they want to collect every player who played? I'm trying to figure out the demand out of curiosity because it doesnt seem to translate into other sports autograph collecting as much.

JimStinson
 

In answer to your question many collectors collect ever player who ever played in the ML

JimStinson
 

Also teams 1919 Reds, 1919 White Sox, 1927 Yankees, 1955 Dodgers or ALL players that ever played for the Yankees, or Dodgers etc. Your correct it does not translate into other fields of collecting. Except maybe the entire cast of "The Wizard of OZ" or "Casablana" or "Gone with the Wind" or "The Godfather"

JimStinson
 

Also using BOXING as an example I was the guy that did over 200 private signings with boxing champions and impossible to find non-baseball autographs including the legendary (and now deceased) middleweight champ CARLOS MONZON in Argentina , JOHN TATE (when he was in prison), TREVOR BERBICK (shortly before his head was split open with a machette), OSCAR DE LA HOYA (Right after the Gold Medal in Barcelona), etc etc and the response was luke warm at best.

Exactly, i collect boxing and other than collecting all of the opponents of muhammad ali, there isnt much of demand to collect all boxers who fought joe louis, frazier etc. (Even though i collected all the championship opponents of Louis and got many of them from you.)

I think i have the only manuel ramos autograph around but he fought frazier for the title and not Muhammad Ali, so it is almost worthless even though he was mexican heavyweight champion and the only mexican national to fight for the heavyweight crown. Had he fought Muhammad Ali it would be worth a lot. Had he been a baseball player it would be a brick of gold.

I just never hear of people looking for an autograph of someone of little note other than playing in the league who played three games for the boston celtics back in 1948. but baseball has its allure I guess.

JimStinson
 

Yes you are correct , other fields of collecting trend toward specific areas of collecting, With boxing its tipically the heavyweight champs, or guys who fought Ali. Or Louis but here is the KINK , there might be only 2 or 3 guys that collect in that arena so ....even though the autograph is SUPER tough , even tougher than some of the "cup of coffee baseball players" there does not exist a "market" and market determines value ....at the MOMENT , which changes always

you are right, there is only a few, only 6 i know that collect ali opponents, and they have most of them on the list now. so no real market, you have to know someone who knows the guys who might have one and the price is whatever the two people agree upon. I get inquiries sometimes about how much this tough ali opponent autograph is worth and many times I say "I don't know" they don't trade hands enough to put a concrete price on it.

Ali opponents herb siler, sonny banks, tony esperti, and alejandro lavorante are the toughest outside of jim robinson, where no known autographs exist.

there are 50 opponents and someone has 49, so he's done, a few have in the 40's.

In space you have collectors who collect every astronaut. Then you get into flown versus everyone who ever attained astronaut status, which is difficult, but not impossible.

if you throw cosmonauts into the mix, it becomes nearly impossible.

I'm curious Steve.
How many people in each of those categories?
Moonwalkers, Flew into space, just plain ole astronauts, and cosmonauts.
How many of them would be considered difficult?
Am I correct in thinking the Armstrong is the most expensive? Is he the most difficult to get?
I know little about the astronaut field, but, like most, was fascinated with them as a kid. One of my goals is to eventually get an Armstrong.

Thanks,
Mark

Flown astronauts are a little over 350. Unflown are a few dozen.

Cosmonauts and taikonauts are a little over 150.

Like anything else, it's the 10% that are really tough for one reason or another.

Unflown guys like Ted Freeman, Charlie Basset, CC Williams and Elliott See are rare because they died early in the program. There are also a few shuttle astros you've never heard of before who sell for huge money because they died prematurely soon after they earned their wings.

Grissom, White and Chaffee (Apollo 1) are not super rare, but in very high demand. Then there is Bill anders (Apollo 8) who hates signing and is uncommon and in high demand. To make it even more fun, Anders intentionally changes how he signs (when he rarely signs) just to mess with collectors.

Armstrong is common, but demand is so high, signed cards sell for $1000. Photos $1500 and up.

Russian tradition was cosmonauts should not sign until after their flight... A superstition they all followed. So, the cosmonauts who died on their first flight are extremely rare. For example, Dobrovolsky and Patseyev who died on Soyuz 11 only exist on a handful of official documents that reside in Russian museums. A few signed items have appeared on the collector market, however many collectors have serious doubts about these items.

There are various subsets such as all 12 moonwalkers on white spacesuit photos, but there is always a catch. For instance, Jim Irwin hated his space suit portrait and almost never signed it. An Irwin WSS unpersonalized would probably sell for $10,000+.

A single item with all 12 moonwalkers would be huge. Only a handful exist. A baseball with 10 (or was it 11) of the 12 just sold at heritage for $21,000 plus.

WOW.
I had no idea there were that many. Fascinating stuff.
Thanks for the education. I really do appreciate it.

Now I have to plan the money for an Armstrong. Hmmm.

Best,
Mark

JimStinson
 

If you included Michael Jackson that would be 13 "moonwalkers"

Dave Hoskins?
 

How does Dave Hoskins rate for toughness? I always thought he was pretty hard, I consider myself lucky to have a single-signed ball of his. I'm about to post a team-signed ball with him, but don't want to mislead.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Are the guys from the recently discovered CIA gemini project known? I'd imagine those would be tough.

Steve B

JimStinson
 

Dave Hoskins is VERY tough even though he died in 1970. Most collectors however that collect everyone would want him on a single flat , maybe not a team ball but he would absolutely add value to the ball. I would expect a flat item, cut from album page etc to sell in the $150.00-$200 price range.
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Vintage autographs offered Daily
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Speaking of Herb Gorman...
 

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/y...herbgorman.jpg

Just picked up this Herb Gorman 1952 Cardinals team signed sheet. If anyone is looking for Gorman, let me know....

Tom C

Gorman
 

Guess he's not the toughest on multi-signed items, here's a baseball with him.

Ken

Thanks for ressurecting this thread. I must've missed it the first time around and it was a great read. I always love Jim's stories and insight.

JimStinson
 

Thanks guys I had forgotten all about this thread myself. Since it started I picked up (and sold) a Dizzy Sutherland pictured here
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Toughest 1940's & 1950's Baseball Autographs
 

.

. . . but more like one of the toughest 1930's baseball debut autographs; Orlin Collier.

.

This is a great topic. Here's a question - Who is the toughest autograph for each ML franchise post 1920? That should generate some debate.

I have read a couple different articles about collectors trying to collect all the Ali opponents. Is a Jim Robinson autograph still considered to be non-existant?

I have also read in the past about a collector trying to collect every man who ever fought for the heavyweight title, so I was familiar with how tough Ramos is. I saw a Ramos autograph on eBay a few months ago. Obviously, eBay is loaded with fakes and frauds. But Ramos seems like he would be a pretty obscure guy to fake. I don't even think it ever sold. From what I remember, the seller claimed it came from Ramos' military discharge papers. I thought that was kinda weird, beause isn't that where the one known legit Ramos autograph originated from?

I know baseball will always be king as far as autograph values go, but it always amazes me how cheap boxing autographs from the early 20th century are for everyone other than the heavyweight champions.

Who were the toughest Louis opponents to collect?

Picked up a tough 1955 debut Webbo Clarke on Washington Senator Team Ball. I already have his but figured it can't hurt to have another as it is only the fourth I have seen. The ball is also signed by a 19 year old Harmon Killebrew.

Solis is a really really though one. He was the last one I got to finish my Mexicans in MLB autograph project:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...elinoSolis.jpg

I was learning about many of the tough obscure Dodgers when i decided to collect all of the players i could find and afford. I have not gotten around to completing lists of anyone debuting in the 40s or back though, so i am sure there are plenty of difficult to downright impossible names as i get further back from the present. I had actually seen a story (Yours I see now) about Clancy Smyres and figured that is one i will skip!

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...han-babe-ruth/

JimStinson
 

If you are going to collect you can't just "SKIP" someone because they are tough....:):):) Got to play by the rules Curt you're either a Collector or a Dabbler can't be both ;) BTW another 1944 Dodger, Charles Osgood who was a tough non-signer but not as tough as Clancy just passed away
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Vintage Autographs For Sale on My Website
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I'd love an Armstrong - who wouldn't? - but I'll settle for my Buzz Aldrin check.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5343/...50e3b91f_c.jpg

I just listed my Charlie Osgood single signed baseball on eBay with a $14.99 starting bid: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Charles...:L:LCA:US:1123

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NFgxMD...S5sTw/$_57.JPG

Nice. Back in the late 80s/90s, Aldrin donated a a bunch of these checks to the Space Unit in Queens NY. The Space Unit sold them for the princely sum of $40 and they lasted years.

Wish I bought more than one at that time!

Yep, missing Osgood as well. I guess I have to admit that I am a dabbler. Actually I started it all by making a list of players from 1950-present and it got me so involved that I lost the will to do the 1949 and back list…yet. I figure most of those guys are gone already, so no harm in waiting a little longer to find them.

It is fascinating to find these pockets of toughies for what must seem like no good reason. i mean why would a guy who plays a handful of games be so reluctant to sign, especially if a few bucks could be made…but there are enough of them.

I know this is an older range thread, but I am still looking for reasonably priced autos of Robert Giallombardo and Noe Munoz (cards preferred for both, but I think both only have 1-2 cards to choose from), both still living, but obviously not prolific signers.

noe munoz
 

There's a 3x5 on e-bay right now, item #231154579278. Not a card but still.

40's and 50's baseball autographs
 

Hey guys.....Just joined the group and have been collecting for 40 years. Been working on 1940's - 1970's for several years. Still need 24 from the 40's but "only" 11 from the 50's. If anyone can help, please let me know! We'll hit the '60's another time. Still need 32 there! Thanks! Adam

1940 - Charlie Frye, Morris "Red" Jones, Max Wilson
1942 - Dick Adkins
1943 - Connie Creeden
1944 - Steve Biras, John Fick, Bob Katz, Leon Riley, Clancy Smyres
1945 - Bill DeKoning, Ty LaForest, Ray Medieros, John Phillips, Lefty Scott
1946 - John Carden, Jim Hopper, Ted Pawelek
1947 - Sal Madrid
1948 - Dummy Lynch, Jerry McCarthy, Earl Turner
1949 - Ed Albrecht, Julio "Enrique" Gonzalez

1950 - Andy Varga
1951 - Eddie Gaedel
1952 - Bill Bell
1954 - Eric Rodin
1955 - Webbo Clarke, Bill Froats, Wence Gonzalez
1956 - Charlie Peete
1957 - Carl Powis
1958 - Gene "Lefty" Hayden, Marcelino Solis

Welcome! Nice to finally have you on the board, Adam!

Thank you. I have seen that one. That seller has had a few listed over time. I guess despite the apparent scarcity (or lack of interest) for Munoz, I am not ready to pay that for his signature, at least not on a 3x5..

Thought I would revive this as it is always an interesting subject. I ended up getting both Giallombardo and Munoz, but never did get Osgood.

Thanks! This is a great thread. Does anyone know how tough of an autograph Herb Crompton is (1945 Yankees)?

I discovered that I have a Wimpy Quinn autograph. He played in the 1945 Navy All-Star game which is where this ball is from. Here's a pic if anyone is interested and thanks to the OP for putting together the list.

who are the toughest from the 60's?

Woody Crowson Signature
 

Sorry for reviving such an old thread, however I'm interested in getting some sort of estimated value for a Woody Crowson signature.

The signature is on a 4x6 index card with a typed title “Philadelphia Athletics of 1945” and includes the signature of Woody Crowson, who played 1 game in the big leagues and passed away at the age of 28.

This card was obtained by my father who was an autograph collector from the early 1940’s until is death in 1994. He was a member of the press in the 1940’s & 1950’s in the Seattle area, and one of the original contributors to “Sports Condensed News”, which I believe is one of the first publications to feature articles on memorabilia collecting.

This card has never been sold, owned by another dealer, or offered for sale.

My father was good friends with fellow Seattle area autograph collector Ralph Winnie. As a kid in the early 1980’s I remember Ralph pestering my dad for one particular autograph, I can’t remember if this was the item of interest.

There are total of 31 signatures on the card. Some of the other signatures of interest are:
Frankie Hayes – 6 time all star who died in 1955 at age 40
Russ Christopher – an All Star who died in 1954 at age 37
Don Black – an All Star who died in 1959 at age 42
Connie Mack – manager, deceased 1956
Al Simmons – coach, deceased 1956

Appreciate any help, Dave

Time to bring this one back. Is anyone familiar with Al McLean? I just got a huge grouping from the Winnie collection, and he was in it on a postal receipt, so I figure he must be tough.

If you base this on the number of people wanting his signature I'd say Willard Brown.

Thanks for bringing back this great topic. I've been seeking autographs of players from the Negro Leagues who played in the minors in the 40s and 50s, and I'm guessing some of these are quite rare. I typically find them on programs. Recently, I've picked up Buster McDaniel and Buster Clarkson (twice), who both played for the Angels in the PCL. I googled each and couldn't find an example.

I'd love to pick up a Willard Brown ...

Who is Buster McDaniel? I have Bus Clarkson on a contract, I can dig it out and post it if you want to check his auto.

I'm guessing he meant to type BOOKER McDaniel, played for the KC Monarchs in the 1940s and then with the PCL LA Angels.

Yes, I meant Booker. He's pitching for the Angels.

This is the first time I'm reading this interesting thread....Being an Orioles autograph collector, I never realized that Carl Powis was that difficult:

https://i.imgur.com/3a5vJZB.jpg

Anyone know Jim Manning's story? Pitched for the Twins briefly as a teen in 1962, just passed recently. Appears to be quite tough.

Checked SCN and this was in the comments section for a TTM attempt in 2012..

"Got a note from his wife: "Jim is blind and has major health problems."

Being partial to the Dodgers and fascination with the Smyres story, I would check periodically for one, just to see.

Somewhere in the early stages of the Covid shutdown someone listed 2 Smyres autographs. both were steeply priced, I want to say over $1000, maybe more. I can't recall now. Neither appear to have sold on ebay, not that a backdoor deal didn't likely happen for one or both.

While I appreciate a certain value due to scarcity, there also has to be some demand as well. Sometimes it appears the demand is only in the sellers inflated pricing.

I grabbed scans while they were available, along with a ball that was listed at some point.

I recently picked up this signed team photo from the 1955 Mariano Baseball team from the Cuban league. The really tough auto is the Wenceslao Gonzales who played one game in 1955 for the Washington Senators. This is only the second I have ever seen.

Just picked up this John Carden on a 1948 Spring Training Program, it is the first time I have seen Carden on a flat.

I only need 1949 Washington Senators Enrique Gonzalez on a flat, I have him on 2 balls, if anyone has any leads, I would appreciate it.

In have enjoyed rereading this thread as it pops up from time to time. I salute those tracking down every MLB player. It is hard enough to track down players from one team, let alone ALL teams. I just don't have the passion (or the willingness to pay huge $ for commons) just to complete the run.

I ended up buying a large lot of Dodger autographs and both Smyres and Nick Polly were included, but neither were mentioned (and the price didn't reflect their inclusion) and both turned out to be reproduction cuts from a magazine.

I have let the older Dodger autograph chase die for now, other than a single obscure guy that catches my attention somehow from time to time, as I try to keep up with the newest members of the team each year and never did make a list of 40s and early guys. Its on my to do list someday. Mookie Betts is making it very hard to finish the LA list (at a price I am willing to pay), although a few other obscurities are still on my wantlist as well. Anyone have any cheap spare Darien Nunez or Justin Bruihl autographs to spare?

I don't think Brown is as scarce as some of the others. As a HOF, there's a lot more demand for his autographs. Brown as still alive into the 1990's and you can sometimes find him on Negro League reunion ball.

I have a couple of Puerto Rico contracts of his with his autograph. Here is one from 1941-1942.

Just picked up this 1949 Washington Senators Enrique Gonzalez. Its the first signature of his on a flat item I have ever seen. Its in a team signed notebook of the 1949 - 1950 Marianao Baseball team from the Cuban Winter League.

Attachment 574010

That is a sweet pickup. Congrats!

A few years back, I picked up an old Pirates batting helmet that reportedly belonged to Lino Donoso. After finding his name listed in this thread as a tough autograph, and reading that Pirates' super scout Howie Hack signed him to a contract in a Mexican brothel, I began my search for his signature. I found it on this Hollywood Stars ball.

Harry O’Neill on a 1939 Philadelphia Athletics ball

Signed at the bottom of the panel

I figured I would revive this thread and hope someone out there can help me

I just need the following autos to complete my 1940 to present autograph collection, any help would be greatly appreciated.

1942
Bert Hodges 01 Phillies

1944
JOHN FICK 58 PHLLIES
BARNEY KOCH 87 DODGERS
CLANCY SMYRES 07 DODGERS

1945
JACK PHILLIPS 58 GIANTS