PSA 10 E98 Wagner mistake
 

Since this is rather important, especially considering what was spoken about on the board, I want to start a new thread to make sure the issue gets addressed correctly. In the Black Swamp find there is a PSA 10 E98 Wagner. The one that was previously shown on the board was an operational mistake that PSA made. I had a fairly long chat with Chris Ivy about it today as well as Joe Orlando. Chris and Joe both said that when they looked at the card in the holder they knew immediately there was an issue. The PSA 10 card IS graded correctly but when it was to be put in it's holder the PSA operations folks DID in fact pick up one of the PSA 8.5s and put it in the PSA 10 holder by mistake. That being said the certification number was correct, only the card in the holder wasn't. The mistake has been corrected and the 8.5 is in it's correct holder and the 10 is in it's correct holder now. Joe made special mention that it is to Heritage Auctions credit that the mistake was brought to his attention very quickly (it has been in it's correct holder for days now), fixed and no one was hurt by it. It deserves being noted again that this was not a grading error but rather an operational one. He is upset with his company for making the mistake and is addressing the issue internally so it won't happen again. Say what you want to about PSA, but each of the few times I Have spoken with Joe O. I came away being impressed with his honesty, integrity and love of the hobby.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...No=68001#Photo


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You cant ask for more, seems fair. Kudos to PSA, and extra kudos to HA.

Cheers,

John

Thanks for posting that, Leon. Very interesting story and I'm obviously glad to hear PSA took care of the issue. All of my interactions with Joe have been along the same lines - he seems like a good, honest guy.

It's nice to hear they fixed their mistake. And kudos to all on the board who saw the overgraded card in the slab and spoke their minds regarding the inconsistency of the grade and the card. Well done everyone. And what good eyes you have. :)

Very cool. When I saw the green psa 9 in the near complete set I was thinking how it actually looks nicer then the 10... This makes more sense now; I still think the green one looks better in the scan though.

Thanks Leon for posting this, and good job Chris and Joe O!

Good to hear about respect for Heritage. I have not dealt with them on cards yet but they did a handle a rare book this year very well and now I have a bunch of more "literary" lots and rock and roll lots (including a John Lennon letter to me) coming this fall so glad to hear about their honesty and transparency.

Nice rectification!! Now the real 10...what a f'in blazer!!!! Can't wait to see the hammer on that one!

+1

I feel compelled to say it again...I've been in the hobby for 30 years and this really could be the best find I've ever seen. If there's a better one I don't remember it.

Still makes one wonder how many of these 'mistakes' happen. Such a big $$ card gets messed up??? Nice to see it resolved - but.....

Not a small mistake. But glad they fixed it. Just a crazy story.

That card is un-f'nbelievable!!!! Absolute stunner!!! Obviously a 6-figure card, just how high is high though??

This story is getting a little confusing.

So that means the PSA 10 Wagner card was put in either the PSA 8.5 Collins holder or the PSA 8.5 Harry Davis holder by mistake. Right or wrong?

Also, why were some put in the old style holders and some in the new style?

Yup, Joe Orlando is going to take action on this issue....

Joe (to his staff): Did someone put a card graded PSA10 in a PSA8.5 holder and a card graded PSA8.5 in a PSA10 holder?

Staff: Yes

Joe: How did this happen?

Staff: We couldn't tell the difference between the two cards.

Joe: Oh, ok.

Glad to see that this blatant error was fixed quickly and aggressively. I'm certain the issue of having to buy back a six-figure card was a non-factor in making an expedient resolution to the situation. :rolleyes:

Classic...

i think for the most part psa gets it right but there are times you scratch your head wonder what they are thinking but nice job catching the mistake befor someone paid alot more money for it than needed.

It is not confusing to most folks since the pop report clearly shows there are 2 PSA 8.5 Wagners and 1 PSA 10 Wagner. (Why are you looking at other players?) The ops folks picked up an 8.5 (which was correctly bashed on the board) and put it mistakenly in the 10 holder. I have no idea why different type holders were used, if they were, as I didn't look. And whomever said it was a BIG mistake is correct. Joe O. thought so too.

And btw Fred, on this mix up it was quite obvious the card in the 10 holder, and first shown on the board, didn't meet a 10 criteria with the bump to the back, bottom corner. Otherwise I have to agree with you on being able to tell the highest grade cards from each other.

My mistake, I was looking at the cards as being offered as the "Black Swamp Find" on the Heritage website. I had no idea there were 3 Wagners.

Not much information online or otherwise about this find other than they were found in the Black Swamp area of Ohio and found under a doll house in someones attic. Lots of online links to Auction house but the small amount of information that is there is copy and pasted from other websites.

Looking forward to seeing it in Baltimore

http://images.ha.com/lf?set=path%5B8...oduct.chain%5D

Not a bad looking card.

When I was speaking with Joe O he told me that what is almost as amazing as the PSA 10 of Wagner is the fact that many of the PSA 9 Cobbs would have been 10s if not for their centering. This find will make National news wires soon. I am excited about it for our whole hobby's sake. It will undoubtedly help raise awareness (in a positive light) for our hobby. All passionate collectors and hobbyists should be happy about that.

So I could see how Joe might have missed this since it is not his job to verify grades but Chris noticed there was an issue with the 10 but put up a picture of it anyway before contacting PSA to correct it?

Additionally, since the 10 is sandwiched between two 8s based on the sequential cert numbers (note to OP who thinks there are only 3 Wagners when there were 46 graded from this find) how did the 10 get switched with an 8.5? My understanding is that cards get assigned cert numbers upon receipt and for good reason are left in order in the boxes once graded. Flips are printed and cards are holdered in order.

Greg

I'd own it.

Maybe the cards got out of order and it was a mistake?

Once again praise praise praise for PSA making a mistake. This time enough attention had been brought to the card to warrant looking further into it. Heck it isn't tough to find a so called 8 or high to call it a 10 make the switch and say all is fine.

If these were modern cards they would be lucky to get an 8 with the registry being off and the color bleeding off the borders. So much attention is given to sharp corners and centering it is ridiculous. The 10 has obvious immediate visual defects I just don't get how the cards warrant the applied grades. The card in the first 10 holder that is know an 8.5 has so many obvious defects (the big one is the extra red color on the back plus the other defects mentioned in the 10 card.I don't know how it warrants anything more than a 6.

Great looking cards but not to the level of the grades. If you think so that is your and opinion and you are free to spend your money as such. To me I am not in this game, even if I could afford it.

Lee

Great looking cards but not to the level of the grades.
Lee[/QUOTE]

I agree, the first thing I noticed about this card is the imperfect registration. It is a beautiful card but not a 10. dave

To me, the whole concept of the 10 (or 98) grade is meaningless and rather arbitrary (although great marketing). If a card is Mint it should be essentially flawless, so the notion of an even higher grade makes no sense.

I'd own the sht out of it

I think the human eye can distinguish between PSA/SGC/Beckett Mint (9/96/9) and Gem Mint (10/98/9.5), but can anyone tell me how to distinguish Gem Mint from Pristine (??/100/10)? The fact that SGC and BGS even have a Pristine grade would lead us to believe that there are flaws in Gem Mint cards. Now that makes no sense Peter.

Do we know when and how they are going to start selling the Cobb PSA 9s? Sorry if its been told already. Would love to put some bids on a few.

I am just curious if the upper right corner has a ding in it. It looks a though it does on the blown up scans on HAs web site. Anyone else see it?

now if Joe could just do the same thing with autographs. gets some heads rolling over there joe!

I would bet that if you took, say 50 10s and 50 9s of a mass-produced modern card, cracked them all out, and resubmitted, many 10s would come back 9s and vice versa. And judging by scans of the Dmitri Young collection, I'm not so sure on somewhat older cards there is a meaningful difference between 9s and 10s either. I think it's mostly marketing and hype.

I just don't buy the incorrect slabbing excuse and surprised at how easily it was accepted. I wish my customers allowed do overs.....I'd win every bid ever quoted on.

I'm late to this story -- but how are the rest of the cards in the find going to be sold? I see that Heritage is selling one near-complete set. What about the rest of the cards?

Yes, do overs would be great if that is what this "grading" was. I think those are called "reviews". This was not a grading mistake or review though. The EXACT same cards are now just in each others holders, the way they should have been to start with. Nothing personal but I can't imagine, with the same cards in the same holders, just reversed, how anyone is coming up with some sort of conspiracy. I knew it would happen though :). It's ok, it happens every time. It's part of having a lot of folks on the board. Our board is actually very predictable, again, no worries there.

Greg- yeap, glasses could be needed :). I know I am blind without mine.

Jeff- I have not heard how the rest will be sold nor do I know of anyone or anywhere that has had that info. I hope to get a bit more news early this next week and might be able to help with a few answers.

I wonder how much more the set would have fetched had the extent of the discovery not been broadcast and made known through the change in the pop report. It may not be analagous, but when there was a massive find of high grade 52 Bowman high numbers it drove prices way down, as could have been expected.

Believe me Peter, that thought was taken into consideration (not putting them out out there at once to keep the prices down somewhat). However, I know this is going to be hard for a lot of people to accept, the auction house (I don't know about the consignor) didn't want to do it that way and hose people that bought the first cards. Shudder to think they would do something that helps hobbyists.

Prices for the very best cards will be strong. They'll have no trouble getting top dollar for the PSA 10 Wagner and all the PSA 9 Cobbs.

The PSA 7 commons, on the other hand, will probably be sold by the pound. Those are going to be cheap.

If you put a pair of those glasses in your next auction I am going to place a crazy top all! What is good for hobbyists, is ultimately good for those who sell to them, is it not? ;)

The lack of information on this "Swamp Find" find is incredible.

Usually when ever a rare painting or other rare item is found there is always a good story about it somewhere. Provenance is very important to buyers of high priced collectibles.

I thought somewhere online I would find a short story from a small town newspaper or collectibles site but found nothing.

If anyone has a link to a story such as "when" and exactly "where" please post.

Sorry... but I extracted the wrong tooth... do over!!!

They have been grading cards for over 20 years and this is the first time it has happened that cards have been accidentally switched?

what can joe o. do to make sure it doesnt happen again when their online video shows that each card gets assigned a number and double, triple checked all the way through and put in the correct holder that corresponds to the number assigned to the card?

Did the owner of the cards give both back to psa and collect the $$$ under their guaranteed grade program?

If one PSA 9 Cobb was made available and the market did not know there were 8 more behind it, it would sell for multiples more, that's just basic economics.

Rush,

I posted this on the original thread yesterday. It seems that the SMR will release a story of some sort.

PSA will be handing out thousands of free, special-edition SMRs at the 33rd National Sports Collectors Convention this summer in Baltimore, MD.

This year's HOF/National SMR issue poignantly manages to reminisce about the past without ever losing its firm grasp of the future. While one feature article celebrates the 50th anniversary of the 1962 Topps Baseball set, another unveils one of the most thrilling finds in recent hobby history – that of an astonishingly well-preserved collection of E98s. And with the turn of just a few pages, you will likewise discover one article commemorating the legendary Washington Senators pitcher Walter Johnson, and yet another introducing this year's HOF inductee, Barry Larkin.

Black and White Photography: A Timeless Remembrance This special SMR edition will also include an additional 16-page insert bound inside the magazine, between pages 104 and 105. A unique compilation of black and white original photographs and their corresponding cards, this insert will serve as a one-of-a-kind visual photo guide for both the new and veteran collector alike. By pairing the colorful sports cards we have grown to know and love with the black and white images that inspired their creation, PSA will endeavor to introduce hobbyists to a new segment of collecting.

No question Peter, having something like ten Cobbs available at the 9 level is a huge number. But it's a big hobby and they will all be absorbed and end up in major collections. However, a card that is a "1 of 1" or "1 of 2" is certainly worth more than a "1 of 10".

But the ten Cobbs aren't the problem. I think the 47 Wagners will be. There will be one or two high grade examples in every subsequent auction. An E98 Wagner in PSA 7 is going to be an affordable card.

So out of 700+ extractions every one will go flawlessly without so much as a minor complication? Or as a better analogy, 700+ extractions without a slipup in the billing department?

I've gone to the wrong dentists.("Do NOT put the hook in this tooth here it has a huge cavity" -Where's the first place she jabbed that hook? Yep, and she nearly lost a finger. Pain really shouldn't have smells and colors:( )

Steve B

+1 on dentistry :) I never gave the guy who stitched my gum to the side of my cheek a second chance!

Peter S, I personally can't see the difference between most 9s and 10s. I'm ok with that. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that can point out microscopic scan flaws. Check out the mint 9 Cobb in the set offering, can someone point out the difference between it and the 10 Wagner? I sure can't see it.

I've also had excellent dentists, including one who gave the novocaine shot and I didn't even feel it.

My point was more that in nearly every field there's stuff that goes wrong. Expecting PSA or anyone to be perfect is just as much a case of rose colored glasses as thinking none of those mistakes ever get brushed off.

Two cards out of 700+ got into each others holders. I can see that happening. And it did get fixed before serious money got spent.

Steve B

I have a good dentist, although he's a little long in the tooth....

Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about caramel cards. That said, to be a 10 doesn't the card need perfect registration? This card has white around Wagner's face, etc.

"Say what you want to about PSA, but each of the few times I Have spoken with Joe O. I came away being impressed with his honesty, integrity and love of the hobby." (Leon)



It takes one to know one ;);) aloha, dave pierson

joe o . doesnt comment on laser printed autographs, why it happened, how it happened, how he is going to make sure it doesnt happen again, how many could possible still be out there in encapsulated holders.

i have noticed when it comes to the TOUGH questions, he clams up and won't say anything. always no comment.

softballs he hits out of the park, however.

Hey Travis, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. (I just wonder what he's doing in that handbasket) dave.

Dentist
 

When my dentist graded my teeth he gave my molars "8"'s and I could have sworn they would grade out as 9's. Must have been off centered or maybe print marks.

Ive known Joe for 20 years
 

I have found him to be a good guy. You must remember he does have a job to do as President of PSA which includes protecting the brand and remember he comes from law school so he has that lawyer training. I do think he cares about the hobby, he was a collector long before he went to work at PSA. I've had some issues over the years, as every dealer does at some point in time, and I found Joe always handled them professionally and courteously. I know others did not fair so well, hi Dan, but I've never had an issue that they didn't at least attempt to help resolve.

Leon, while Joe was being honest and full of integrity and caring about the hobby, did you bother to ask him why he never paid me my legal fees after I won my lawsuit?

The back of PSA's submission form at the time stated that if you won a judgement against them, that they would pay your legal fees.

When I called Joe and asked for the fees, he screamed and hung up on me.

honest, integrity, caring for the hobby.

Dan Mckee

I could carve a better man out of a banana. dave

Dan I would do the same thing to you if you called me to simply say "Hello". :D At least Joe took your call. He will not take mine ever again.

Seriously though, in this thread Leon has already described or characterized Heritage and Joe as having integrity and caring about the hobby. I attempted to engage him in a discussion to no avail. Leon has spoken...or not.

Hope all is well.

Greg

I know one thing for sure. Will Rogers never met J. O. aloha, dave.

I happened to pick up my first E98, an orange SGC40 Wagner right around when the posts about this find began circulating. I'm definitely a collector first, but also do like to think I'm making good/wise purchases should I ever need the money back sometime down the road. Was it a really bad time to buy this card?? There were a couple condition issues that made me consider returning it, but I love its look and have decided to keep it.. for now at least.

But can you stick the banana where the sun don't shine? I am sure that would be a great place for it. Or you could stick it in your pie hole so stupid things quit coming out of it? aloha

Maybe if you didn't act like a freaking idiot he would speak with you too?

harsh.

It has been many years but if I remember correctly he was anxious to talk to me at the time because of something I posted on here about him in court.

He got the last dig in as he hung up on me.

You have to love our legal system though, I do nothing wrong, I have an item of mine lost by a company, I go through the proper channels to recoup my funds, and I still lose $1800 in legal fees and travel that I was not allowed to add to the lawsuit.

No wonder people get shot after court rulings.

If I just lost a court case to you I would probably hang up on you too. IF the law said the loser had to pay court and legal fees then they should have done it. If not, then I doubt his company would want to pony up. I understand your frustration. Joe never said he, or his company, was perfect. Actually, as a good friend of mine, I am glad you won Dan. That doesn't make me think Joe or PSA is evil though. It makes me think they lost your Magie card and had to pay for their error.

Lawsuits rarely end amicably! Some douche bag ran over my parked motorcycle a few years ago in front of 10 to 15 witnesses! he was so nice when it happened but when it came time to retribution he was a prick! People's true colors tend to reveal themselves in situations such as these.

Similarly I lost the use of my motorcycle for the whole summer and countless hours of my time trying to get this douche to pay never to be reimbursed!

uh ok, my point is:

PSA stated on the back of their forms at the time that if you won a judgement against them, they would cover your legal fees.

I agree it wasn't legally a responsibility for Joe to cover them but I spoke up in this thread about his integrity and honesty and to me, not paying me when the back of your form states that you will, is not a sign of integrity or honesty.

Also, I might add that after we won the judgemment, we were not paid until my council sent a letter thereatening to have a Sheriff watch PSA open their incoming mail and to collect my funds then.

A check was Fedex'd to me the next day.

integrity, honesty, cares about the hobby.

Dan Mckee


P.S. thanks for being glad I won, me too! It was a nightmare of an ordeal and one I do not wish on anyone to have to go through. It was very stressful.

Getting him to pay was like pulling teeth eh?

I will never be as good as you are at kissin' ass.

why did i take court for them to pay for the card, if they are so nice?

I believe all of the Black Swamp Wagners were of the Red variety. I don't think the oranges will be negatively impacted. In fact, one could make a case that the orange's will become more valuable due to their relative scarcity to the reds.

IF the form said they would pay those fees then they should have and that was a mistake on their part, agreed.

However, it would be nice to get back to the original topic of the thread. You are more than welcome to start a new thread concerning this legal issue if you want to. I have never told you not to start a thread or talk about anyone or any business. regards

pete...it was harder than pulling most teeth!!!!! C'mon, Dan...it's the same thing?!?!?!?!:)

Someone didn't charge you nearly enough!! :D

Never mind

back to the wagner card, if joe o. is so helpfulm please ask him to relay his findings on just how this mixup occurred and just what they are going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

consumer confidence in their ability to not mixup peoples cards and holders would rise if he gave details on how it happened and explained the safeguards that will be put in place to ensure it doesn't happen again. Not just some generic explanation with a wing and a prayer promise they won't do it again.