PSA vs SGC...the definitive Debate!!!
 

Yes...this topic has been beaten to death...shall we come to a definitive conclusion to put it to rest?

Who sucks the least...PSA or SGC...please feel free to post evidence to support your arguments!!!!!

Peter, i think you know where i stand. They both make plenty of mistakes. But when it comes to resale value on your investment, psa cards bring alot more money, especially t206s.......

Bust 'em all out...

I love them both (and BVG too). Now please give me good grades on my submissions!!

I'm a cracker, but if I had to choose, SGC has a more appealing holder.

Am I the only one that thinks the PSA holder is cooler looking? :o

+1. Put them back in when it's time to sell

I like SGC for consistency, customer service and value, but can't argue that PSA brings more $$. Not sure that will change . . .

I prefer sgc but i also love psa cards but in my collection i have 1.5x more sgc cards.
I love the look of the SGC holder

I like SGC for consistency, customer service and value, but can't argue that PSA brings more $$. Not sure that will change . . .


+1!

+2 not sure too that will not change, many time when we talk about grading mistake etc, psa is almost everytime involve, so i am not sure this will not change

Probably this has been done here already, but would be interesting for folks to make two lists (subjective):

What PSA tends to go easy on (very forgiving) in grading--and where it is very tough

Same for SGC.

Couldn't agree more, red and white over green and white.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure PSA grades more cards which could explain more mistakes.

I agree with Zach and Jake. PSA offers a better case, easier to read grading, and tracking that can easily be accessed on their website.

Rich

Definitive makes me laugh on this subject. It is a religious debate with financial overtones.

The PSA case is slimer so more of them fit into my bin. SGC cases are too bulky looking.

You misspelled slimier.

Sgc/psa
 

I like SGC for accuracy, but because of collectors affinity for the PSA Registry, they bring higher prices IMO. Also, I love how my cards stand out in the SGC holder. Drives me nuts in some of the PSA holders when the cards move all around.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by zljones
The PSA case is slimer so more of them fit into my bin. SGC cases are too bulky looking.

You misspelled slimier.

+1 lol

I agree. I'd almost rather discuss religion and/or politics before taking a side in this debate!:p

Beating A Dead Horse
 

Vintage Style

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...DeadHorse1.gif

Current score sgc 53, psa 11....i just simply don't get it. If we all are collectors and at some point want to sell, why would you not go with the grading company that brings the most money?

For the most part...I don't buy/collect cards with the intent to sell!

My primary reason for collecting is the enjoyment I derive from the hobby and owning the cards themselves...not the satisfaction I may receive from getting top dollar for my cards if and when I decide to sell them.

I am more a man or morals...of ethics...and of esthetics...and SGC does a better job for what my needs and desires are.

Peter, i agree to some point, but i know i am not going to collect cards for the rest of my life. So what do you do with them at that point when you are either looking to retire or no longer collect? Most collectors sell. That's all i'm saying.

+1 Well said, Peter.

Sgc/psa
 

+2

Somebody who collects PSA 5s is going to have to tell me how they live with the regular occurrence of PSA 5s with creases. I have owned hundreds of SGC 60s and PSA 5s over the past decade. The PSA 5 with creases is a plague. I have NEVER -- really NEVER -- seen an SGC 60 with a crease or wrinkle.

Plus, I have no idea who is grading PSA cards. SGC makes its graders available for discussions at shows. I have had half a dozen conversations with Bob Luce at SGC about grading T206s of all conditions.

PSA has no customer service and inconsistent grading. The reasons they may get more money for their cards is unrelated to the quality of their product.

Agreed. Besides, I'm not convinced that they do overall. Sure, some PSA cards sell for more than their SGC equivalency, but there are also many SGC cards that sell for more than their PSA equivalency.

On sets of which the Registry is competitive PSA cards bring more money upon resale; but on postcards and type cards SGC does just as well.

So you say, but the laws of market economics say otherwise.

The market rewards PSA for its registry, proliferation and price-realization-expectation. The quality of their product -- consistent grading -- is seriously lacking, and cannot possibly be driving the value of a PSA holder.

Now on day 24 of my 5 day submission to PSA. SGC has never been late and even worked with me on a better price on some of my submission cards

if submitted by an average person
 

I'll take SGC, If submitted by a major submitter I'll take they both SUCK.

My nutshell
 

I have never submitted a card for grading, and dislike what the whole grading subculture has wrought upon the hobby...but on a rare occasion I have purchased graded cards (nowadays raw can only get you so far). I have seen a greater percentage of mistakes and inaccurate grading in PSA cards, while the black inserts in the SGC cases make the cards stand out. In my perspective PSA does top SGC in one way...their slimmer cases take up less room.

Brian

PSA, SGC, and BVG all have the same flaw: they hire human beings. Human beings lack the ability to be completely impartial. Computers are impartial however and I believe in the not-too-distant future that image processing technology will lead to automated grading.

Yes, software architects and developers are human beings, but a programming flaw (for example, an improper angle calculation for off-center/miscut/diamond-cut detection) would impartially affect all cards, regardless of whether the subject was an E98 Wagner or a 1950 Callahan Wagner.

Peter you left out PRO up there I love those guys.

I guess it's finally settled, PSA is better

True, but the humans at work at SGC include certain graders who have been there since the beginning of the company. Like I said, Bob Luce at SGC is terrific and is one of the people on this planet who actually should be grading T206 cards. When you submit a T206 to SGC, he is one of the guys there who will look at it.

In my experience, those who say PSA and SGC both make human mistakes tend to be PSA collectors who think the inconsistent grading they have in their collections would have been the same if they had SGC grade their cards. It wouldn't be the same. SGC is much more consistent.

Finally, what's up with the "baggie" on oversized T206s, PSA? Yuck!

I wouldn't say that. I can show you around 50 Mutoscope cases that I had to crack out because SGC blew the grades on every single one of them. And I think BigDaddyBowman has a pic of all the SGC cases he had to break out because they blew his grades too.

I've always favored the SGC slab, customer service etc. In the mid '90s, my first SGC card was the '59 Mantle. Red on Black is amazing. Post war card in a SGC holder was rare. Still is, but I was hooked. Sent in 25 more '59s to get them graded. More for the look than the number on the label.

I too believe PSA (usually) brings more in resale - but I'm not collecting for resale. My heirs will be left a note saying "consider sending everything to PSA for more $$".

BGS slabs are too big - but are hurricane proof. PSAs are too easy (IMO) to fake or reseal.

OT: I can't stand those registries. I've seen too many 9s that look better than 10s - but are 'worth' 90% less because to the label. I even own a 10 with a wax stain on the back.

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades. I would definitely like to see scans of what you are talking about. Mutoscope is non-sports? 1940s?

WOW! I actually voted for PSA considering the problems and the volume. I was shocked to see that I am in the minority. Interesting.

I found that after awhile, I started giving the card my own grades, probably like many of you do. It may say it's a 4, I may say it's a 3 as example. I guess I'm saying I look at the card first anyways, their grades are only a reference point-you make the final decision. I can see though, how it would matter more to someone from the selling point of view.

SGC
BVG
PSA

Sincerely, Clayton

Psa-sgc
 

I have to go with PSA. In my opinion there grading is much more consistent.
I think they grade differently. SGC seem to grade their cards 1/2 to 1 grade higher than PSA. I have seen many SGC 60 that would be a PSA 4 and SGC 50 that would be a PSA 3 OR 3 1/2. That is why some people prefer SGC because their grades come back higher. A lot of people also buy grade PSA with Qualifiers and crack them and send to SCG and get a nice grade with no qualifier. They both make some mistakes but who doesnt. We all like to think that are cards should grade higher regardless of which company grades them and whoever does not give us the grade we think that we deserve sucks more .
I prefer PSA.

John P

I like applesauce

John p...while i respect your opinion...you could not be more wrong!!!

I'm 100% with Clayton on this. Learn to grade your own cards. All of us go through a learning process when we get into vintage cards and memorabilia, so why not make grading your own cards as part of the process.

TPG does the hobby a great service by examining cards and weeding out the ones that are trimmed and altered. I'm sure that has saved collectors thousands of dollars. Assigning grades, on the other hand, is really not a useful service. First off, it's too subjective and the grade can be changed on a resubmission. Second, the various companies use different standards so cards will not always receive the same grades when crossed over. Finally, many collectors disagree with the grades anyway. Just too many variables for it to make any sense.

Collectors should grade their own cards, and the TPG's should just stick to authenticating and that's it. That has always been my position and I know you've seen me repeat it more than a few times.

Barry... I would venture to guess that grading has made people many many millions of dollars more... then it has saved them?!

Peter- I could spend a long time giving you my response to what you said, but I'll leave it for now. Sure, if you resubmit an 8 and it comes back a 9, you will make a lot of money. But......

T206 vs sgc
 

Peter,
I am glad that you respect my opinion as I respect yours and everyone elses. That is all that I gave was my opinion based on my experience with both parties .You can disagree with me because Its only my opinion and it does not mean anything. I am sure you have your reasons for liking SGC. I usually dont get involved in these debates because its like discussing politics. Collecting T206 is only a Hobby for me and I dont get to wrapped up in all the debates on whos a better grader or anything else. I just enjoy the hobby. If we all had the same experience we would not be having this debate. If I am unhappy with a service I just dont use that service any more. A lot of collectors complain about the service but keep using it.
I am not advocating using either or any grading company. I just have had a better experience with PSA and so thats who I prefer. I wouldnt mind going back to the old days with no graders but those days are long gone. I used to prefer to buy ungraded cards but it is hard to get an honest accessment on the cards grades from some dealers and these cards are expensive so I only buy graded ones now, so that I dont get ripped off. I dont think any of the grading companys are out to screw any of us. I just think that it is an unperfect service and that the grades will always be debatable.

Happpy Collecting
Regards
John P

Slab Wars......
 

If PSA cards sell for more when sold, aren't you paying more for them when bought? Not sure how this might be advantageous?

Best,

Andy

c'mon, Barry! I'd love to hear it!!!!

Well, as Jeff Daniels says in the opening of "Newsroom" when pressed repeatedly about whether he is a Republican or a Democrat: "I am...a New York Jets fan."

I don't want to start rambling Peter, it's bad form. But when an 8 becomes a 9 the grading company is minting money. It's like the treasury printing hundred dollar bills. Nothing has been produced, it's just monopoly money. Is that good for the hobby? It's debatable.

But the money angle aside, grading is far too subjective and undefined for me. I would be a big supporter of it if it were really consistent among the major companies, and if it were done so precisely that one could rarely ever expect the grade to change upon resubmission. Then I would feel we've got something good. But how many times have you heard of people sending a card in three times and getting three different grades? Sorry, but it's not a system I have all that much faith in. But if I'm selling cards, which I don't do anymore, I'd get every one of them graded because the market dictates it. As a collector I wouldn't care one way or the other.

well...so far this poll is turning out the way i would have expected. as this site is more of a "hard core collector" site...I'd expect SGC to be preferred...as they are more accurate, more consistent...and have nicer holders.

If this were a vintage bb card "investment" forum...dominated by mainly collectors of the "popular" sets(T206, 33 goudey, 52 topps)...I'd expect PSA to dominate!

I agree w/Barry's sentiment...I just wished there was more uniformity... and more anonymity with the 3PGServices.

According to your statement Peter:

SGC collector= hard core

PSA collector= investor

Raw collector= ?

Matthew...I wouldn't say it is absolute...of course...but if the main reason to have PSA graded cards is for resale...make your own judgments!!!!

Raw collector = smartest collector as he/she can handle his/her cards and really learn about them!

This is just based on my own experience....PSA grading is more all over the map...I like SGC holders better in terms of aesthetics and also the cards don't float around loosely (I can't understand why PSA still can't fix that on some issues). I have had positive experiences with both in terms of customer service and PSA has done a better job of labeling the cards (I had to resubmit a few back to SGC for errors). SGC is also easier to make submissions to...without having to join a club and without having to label the cards etc...

If I had to choose between one or the other I guess I prefer SGC, but I don't dislike PSA.

Ricky Y

I say SGC.They havent let me down yet and they have great customer service in regards to submitting cards.Jason

PSA has graded over 19 million cards. It would be crazy to say that they are all in the hands of investors or registry people.
I like both PSA & SGC to collect (I'm on both registries) and for re-sale, I've had very few problems with either & I'm glad both are in the hobby.

I cast my vote for GAI. And also for Mrs. Howell.

(if you are under 50 you probably don't get it).

My vote goes to PRO. With PRO you know what kind of cards their grading. With SGC & PSA, it's like buying a box of Cracker Jack. You never know what your going to get.

Couple of questions from a rookie:

1. Is it widely believed to be true that the name of the submitter can influence the grade?!

2. Are there any studies (reputable or otherwise) that have tested the popular claim that these companies grade inconsistently? It seems like it would be a great way to objectively identify which of the two is most consistent.

3. Is the experience and anticipation of waiting for a submitted card an enjoyable or scary one? In other words, do they tend to be too generous or picky? I'm not sure which way they lean, or if they're really all over the board.

Thanks in advance.

SGC was consistent. Consistently bad. Mutoscopes are 1940's pin-up girls. I won a box of vending from one of the major auction houses. These cards looked brand new. I called Michael Goldberg and asked him about grading the entire set. I wanted to pay extra for the "My Divers Liscense" card as that is the money card and they had to custom make a gasket. The gaskets that they normally use don't fit the cards, and they just float around. I told Michael, that any 8's and above that I got, I wanted to pay extra for the custom gasket. When they were graded, and I asked Micahel how much extra I owed him, he laughed and said "nothing - none of your cards graded that high". I got mostly 4's-6's. The Diver's liscense card graded a '7' and looked more like and '8' or '9'.
When I got the cards back in hand, I looked them over and showed them to my girlfriend, who tolerates the hobby even though she is into other things. I showed her some of the 4's, and she laughed "How did this get a '4'? This looks brand new!?!?!" I stated, "My thoughts exactly" and proceeded to crack them all out of the cases. If I had left them in the cases with the incorrect grades, buyers woulda focused on the grades and not the cards, and I would've received peanuts for the cards. Instead, I sold them raw, got a decent amount, and the bidder who bought the majority of the cards shipped them off to PSA, where he proceeded to get 7's and 8's. I did call SGC for clarification and was told that there must have been "minute cracking/crazing" that can't be seen with the naked eye, and can only be seen with extreme magnification! WTF!?!?! That whole lesson cost me around $400-$500.

PS - I saved the scan of the "money card"
http://img2.sellersourcebook.com/use...1270772479.jpg

Thanks Barry- I was hoping my post made sense ;)

I also agree with everything you said. I think people's priorities will determine who likes what TPG better.....people who mostly only collect want consistency......people who mainly sell want whoever will give the highest grade *in some cases, even if it's not accurate.

My collection is like a big salad....SGC,BVG,PSA,and raw (sorry, no PRO :p). I just want the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

sorry but
 

looks like an 84 to me. maybe an 86.

+1 and to add it sounds as though you sent them to SGC because you trusted that they would grade the cards accuratly, which they did using their grading scale, but are pissed they don't grade like PSA where they have a grading scale but is rarely used properly, if at all.

I sent to SGC because I thought they knew the issue and had a special going on. Apparently they were unfamiliar with the issue, because when you grade cards that look brand new as '4's, then something is wrong with that picture. PSA grading the same card as an '8' affirms that one of the two doesn't really know what they are doing. That is too wide of a swing. Me being a consumer, I tend to side with the company grading the card an '8'. If a vending card comes back a '4', there better be a surface wrinkle, white on all 4 corners, SOMETHING. Not an excuse like microscopic surface cracking that can only be seen under extreme magnificaton.

I agree with this. Bobby, you may not have like the grades, but they were consistent. The Diver's License card does look better than the assigned grade. I agree with you there. However, none of us had the privilege to have the cards in hand so we really can't tell. SGC did and they saw something they didn't like.

Let me ask you this, Bobby. Would you rather have a card that, IN YOUR OPINION, was undergraded or would you rather have a card like this that is FOR A FACT overgraded?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...l/Bigchief.jpg

David, PSA has something called a "Grade Guarantee". They are humans, same as the SGC graders grading mint vending box cards as 4's. The card you show was turned in for their "Grade Guarantee", reassigned the proper grade, and a check was cut for the monetary difference. Your disdain for PSA shows constantly, however, I can show you problems with BOTH graders. Let Big Chief rest.

Amen
 

Agree 100%. SGC has made similar errors. In fact Id bet on percentage of cards graded the numbers are extremelly accurate.

sgc vs psa
 

Regardless of who you like better. I think that both grading companys probably make a mistake on less than 1 out of every 100 cards. Both companys use humans to grade their cards . Sometimes I get a card graded and feel that it should have graded higher but other times I feel I got a better grade than the card deserves. But 99% of the time the grade is accurate. That happens with both graders. If you dont like the service dont use it. But grading is here to stay. So lets just move on to another subject.

John P

+1

I like them both. In the Internet sales age, TPG companies a the best hedge we have in the hobby to guard against forgeries.

They both make mistakes, at a pretty similar rate, but on the whole they both do pretty good jobs. And they both do their best to rectify their problems when they have them.

You may agree 100%, but you couldn't be any more wrong. Show me one SGC card with paper loss that is graded a 4 or higher. I can show you many PSA cards with paper loss that are graded a 4 or higher.

Isnt this just a case of personal preference and to argue this issue is a moot point?

I dont understand the need to have this type of thread once a year when in the end it is only a personal choice of which TPG we all like and use (or dont use as the case may be).

DO NOT DIMINISH THE VALUE OF THIS POLL...the results will be definitive and FINAL!!!!! After the poll is over...and the results tabulated...there will be no reason to ever...ever discuss 3PG'raders!!!!!

Please Cooperate!

Why does it have to be paper loss?
 

Listen I worked there I saw buybacks come in all the time. You have no clue. particularly from the Joe Merkel era, they have many bad graded cards. I have seen the results you're just being a fanboy. There are many cards outside the centering standards, cards with writing, poorly trimmed cards with number grades, and yes they have even missed paper loss. I don't make it a point to collect scans so i don't have any, i collect cards. Trust me I personally like the guys at SGC much more than PSA but I don't think as a whole they've done any better than PSA despite the wishes and beliefs of some on this board. Just because Michael for years offered hand holding customer service, which many of you appreciated for good reason, does not make the graders any better. I have no more faith in Bob's abilities than anyones at PSA. I do think Scott is a better grader than anyone at PSA, including Reza, on a regular persons submission.

I agree with Bobby on this one, I've purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders... Seller beware, I guess. Maybe you forgot to buddy up wih the graders. Next time bring pizza and beer.

I think SGC is too carefull with grades sometimes. The seller ends up losing our in these situations.