Black Swamp Find?
 

What is the Black Swamp Find?

???
 

I live in Northeast Indiana, and Northwest Ohio (about 30 minutes away) is known as the Great Black Swamp area from the time of the pioneers of our country when Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan were first settled. I haven't heard of a great find around here, but it would be pretty cool if there was one! Except for the fact that I didn't find it!:(

See the link below for the item that mentions the "Black Swamp Find".

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotIdNo=68001

Only a PSA 10 E98 Wagner. No big thing;)

OMG! Wow, what a find. I wonder how many other cards are in this "Find???"

Ummm wow!

The only reason that Wagner survived in "10" condition was that it was in a plastic holder when retrieved from the Black Swamp. Nice holder, but smells like swamp gas.

So if the staining on the back looks like a wet sheet transfer it isn't considered a stain? And what's the bit that looks like paper loss next to his knee?

Huh...nice card but psa 10? Looks like another psa inside job/blunder!?!?

It seems that psa's guidelines have changed...just discover the nicest known specimen of a card and it gets a gem mint 10. What nonsense.

I remember this find, I think. Wasn't there a bunch of other super high grade e98s? I believe this card already sold before, for a bit over 100k. I can't remember which auction it was.

While this card is so high end it's almost breathtaking, I'd have to agree that the surface issues (front & back) should prevent it from being a "10".

It's difficult to tell from the scan, but I believe the appearance of paper loss next to his knee is a flaw in the holder, not the card.

As to the original question, I have no idea what the Black Swamp find is.

Yeah assuming it is not altered, nice card but not a 10 for the reasons pointed out...maybe not even an 8, technically. But it says 10 so it shall bring 10 money.

Just blew up the scan and it appears 3 corners have wear. One of the spots maybe the holder but there are two other spots missing red ink. Not a 10. Nice card but not a 10.

Why is it graded a 10- a grade that is literally off the charts for a caramel card- when it clearly isn't a 10? And as mentioned, of course it will achieve a 10 price which is likely to be well into six figures. Don't get it. What does it take to assign the proper grade to a card?

Edited to add it's a beautiful card with huge well centered borders, but it has other technical issues.

Agreed BOTN, the upper left corner alone put it at an 8. Just one man's opinion...

You are thinking of an E93 find where a PSA 9 Wagner sold for over 230k.
JimB

Thanks Jim, my memory was wayy off :o

It's funny how many times a month PSA is getting bashed for being the idiots they are, yet we still have big supporters here that are PSA all the way. I guess their collection is valued in plastic and not in cards:( Whats the difference between them and GAI. Mike was just not big enough to survive the ordeal is all.

I think the Wagner should be bought and then graded by SGC and then have those dipsh!ts at PSA pay the hefty sum of the difference for their ignorance and stupidity. I think if thats a spot of paper loss on the front its a 1-3 at best. Far cry shy of a 10 in any matter though:eek:

Andrew you think that card my be in poor condition? Eek.

Lionel Carter collection is fine. Dmitri Young collection is pushing it. Black Swamp Find is over the edge. If noone on this forum has heard of it there's no way it should be listed on a PSA Label.

I think he means technically, if there was paper loss, then it should technically be graded 1-3.

Regardless of the # on the holder, if a person buys the card (and not the holder - whether its a 1 or a 10) it will fetch big bucks IMO. Beautiful card!

Rob
:)

I looked at the huge scans. If you haven't looked at those you should.

The white spot near his knee looks more like some lint in the holder.
The corners do show just the slightest wear. I only figured two, but won't argue if someone else sees three.
The marking on the back is an offset transfer, both red and brown. (And if it's from storage there might be another wagner just as nice!)
What looks like a scratch on the knee at the right I think is on the holder.
The white dot at the lower right and the one at the top center are too small to tell even from the huge scan. They're probably just print defects. If they're paper loss then things are very different.
The red is off register slightly low and left.

I don't think I'd be as harsh as calling it a 1-3, even if the two tiny spots are missing paper. Maybe a 4.

If they're just print defects, I'd be thinking more like 9-9.5, far from perfect with 4-5 trivial defects, but still extremely nice.

And still way more than I could afford, probably more than my house:(
Steve B

Say what you will about HA but the best scans in the biz.

Great card....not a 10...but amazing card. Scott M is still king of the E98's IMO.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...lfCA6XSMBX.jpg

Yea...at least 2 corners touched...those areas on l and r towards bottom concern me. A super sharp card. Anyone have e98 wags's to compare those bottom defects to?

8.5, and no problem if they want to call it a 9.

It's better then mint IMO. It's beautiful

Call me crazy...the card is STUNNING, but the bottom left corner (reverse) keeps this thing out of the 8 range. We now at 7? I'll go away now :)

I'd say 7.

I have scan envy.

It looks like he has a 'C' on his cap :confused:

Maybe it's Joe Jackson

Sorry,
Matt

This E93 Wagner in SGC 88/8 went for a "mere" 16.5K in the recently concluded Goodwin auction: Link

Funny thing is that if you look at the PSA pop report for the E98 Wagner from Heritage, the cert #19871751 is still not viewable. Also, the PSA pop report currently doesn't show any 10's for the E98's. Of course, it's very possible that PSA has not yet updated it's pop database yet.

Ok so looking at the bottom left corner by the knee is a bad spot. Is that a print defect or paper loss?

Also the 1-3 grade range falls correctly based on their scale not mine. We have seen some sharp cards with minor loss take a 1 grade. It's because it's Wagner on the card is the only reason that card graded that and PSA is a joke anyways. If this was a common do you think it would have gotten a 10? This is a joke and anyone that puts value in their grading is an idiot. Come on guys look at their track record. Just about every high end, high graded card that gets posted on this board by PSA is under speculation for over grading and alterations. I have more trust in Global than PSA. JMO

E98 Wagner
 

That card is stunning. But, not a 10. In looking at a couple of corners(back bottom left in particular), I'd knock it down a notch, but not much. I'd give it an 8.5 if not a 9. Registration is off marginally as well, but I'm splitting hairs. Being an E card guy I can't think of one I've seen any nicer. Beauty!

I think the area you're mentioning is actually lint or something inside the slab. If it's not then you've got an excellent point.

I don't think it's worthy of a 10, but I'd have a tough time giving it a 1.

Steve B

There's no reason to blanketly call collectors idiots for using a grading service. Andrew, I've had fun with the TPG acronym (or is it acrostic?) game myself - mine was Please Stop Authenticating Somebody Got Cheated By Valuing Grading, but I collect baseball cards in PSA and SGC holders, and wouldn't consider myself an idiot for collecting either.

This card is gorgeous no matter what the flip says. I'm sure that the hammer price will reflect that.

Does anyone know the answer to my original question?

Daryl I was referring to the idiots that put the value in the plastic container and not the card itself. I also buy slabbed cards but steer away from PSA as much as possible due to their reputation. Buy the card and not the holder.

E98 Wags
 

Just a quick question....is there much difference between "The Swamp Find" and this one?? Both look superb but with much different grades.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19614

If NO ONE knows about the "Black Swamp Find", was there REALLY a FIND at all? ;)

Pete I think they are 2 different cards. It's just that one TPG got it right and the other didnt.

8 or 9
 

there is no way in hell this card should be any less than 8. The PSA card is a hell of a lot nicer then the SGC. Hey Andrew I think you just have the wrong guy submit your cards, to your favorite graders,for you or you'd think about them the same you do PSA. That SGC card is not close to as nice as the PSA your bias is clearly showing. BTW not defending PSA I think they all have major problems with their staffs abilities and qualifications. That being said I would trust and/or agree with Scott at SGC's opinion on a card submitted by a regular guy off the street probably 95 out of 100 times.

those high res scans are incredible...it's so cool to see the waviness and inconsistencies in the printing borders which disappear when viewing with the naked eye!!!!

Glyn no one here believes that the PSA card should be a 10. At most the average consensus I would say is an 8 at best. The SGC card is accurately graded is it not? A 5.5 is worthy of that SGC example. The difference is SGC gets it right 95/100 times where PSA is constantly being bashed for their own mistakes over and over and never try to fix the issues. Yes I prefer SGC over anyone because I can trust their opinion where as PSA is worthless IMO. So I am not being bias by any means I am just stating the facts.

Perhaps the only reason it is a 10 is because the owner hasn't submitted it for the 10.5 half grade upgrade.

Seriously, if givin a choice between "one" high grade card (by virtue that PSA says it's that nice) or a l"ot of other" nice cards, which choice would you make?

Andrew, I think you're right, SGC gets it right 95% of the time. But having mint looking cards in the same 10 holder as cards that look run over by truck seems like another worthless service. PSA cards have the highest resale value. Third party grading was ment to be a THIRD party between buyer and seller. I don't use any service for second party collecting, but if I had high dollar cards for sale it would have to be PSA.

Doesn't the database get updated immediately when the grade is entered?
I would think in that environment, a real time update is likely with their software.

95%
 

yeah right not on a big time submitters invoice, they have a large submitter that would NEVER use them if he received the same grades you or i do. Not to mention the fact that hey let their friends go right into the grading room and argue over grades with them. Obviously they know who's card it is then. Just sit in front of their booth at the national and you will see some of their friends blatantly walk right into the grading room. I have not seen this at PSA, again I feel their are plenty of PSA screw ups I JUST DONT SEE THE PERCENTAGE AS ANY DIFFERENT FROM sgc TO psa. Remeber PSA has graded many many multiples of cards compared to SGC. So of course in sheer numbers there are more PSA screw ups than SGC. I just feel the majority of pSA screw ups are due to incompetence I wish I felt the same about the other guys.

I think Andrew enjoys the "We open up your slab, let you fix flaws, then we reslab at a higher grade while you wait" service that SGC provides. ;)

Well Daryl if you can provide proof of this accusation I would be more than happy to consider it against the many altered high grade PSA cards out there.

So what you are saying Glyn is that SGC is just like PSA. They cater to their high end dealers and cards, and assign false grades to the cards for those submitters to increase their profits but not SGC's. So they do the same thing as the Young collection, the McNall Wagner, the now graded PSA 10 Wagner, as well as an extremely high number of others.


I would love to start my own service:cool:

Andrew, there's a card slabber on eBay right now, only 3k :)

I think Daryl is referring to this post on the board here where a mark was erased in front of SGC graders, and the card went from SGC 20 to SGC 40: Link

Sgc/psa
 

That was my card and we beat this thing to death recently. Almost 90% had no problem and didn't consider that altering a card. As far as The Black Swamp Find, I think a PSA 10 for that card is a joke. SGC wouldn't grade that over an 8. 8.5 at best. It's a beautiful card, but no way a 10. I can tell you I have equally as many SGC as PSA cards, and there are some PSA 5's I have that would be SGC 40's. As it relates to my caramel collection, SGC is unquestionably more accurate and would love to see how they'd grade this "Find".

Removing a faint pencil mark is just like soaking paper off a card. Sounds like your argument is validated by a 90% margin saying it wasn't altering. That's was great customer service IMO.

I don't think erasing is a big deal
 

that said SGC should not have done that. Plus they lay down corners in the grading room for many submitters at SGC and I do think that is altering.

Grading
 

Glyn, I sat with Earl Johnson out in their lobby, not Bob Luce or Scott in their grading room, who are their graders removing that pencil mark. Not sure about them putting corners in the grading room for submitters. Either way, a card is a card and I trust SGC more than PSA. I'm sure the Swamp Find will bring "10" money, but IMO it's not accurately graded. Whoever submitted that card and all the other "Swamp Find" E98's(which are now showing up on the PSA Pop Report), took a lot off the table for themselves diluting the market with all these new "high" grades. I would've gotten one at a time graded/sold and dripped them on the market instead of getting them all graded at once. 9 Red Chief Meyers PSA 9's???

Sounds like an amazing find!

9 Red Chief Meyers PSA 9's???

That's nuts! What a way to dilute the value!

Yeah but at this point I could use that towards the software program for the damn scanner I have been messing with for the last 5+ yrs(has been longer:() for grading cards. The slab is another story. I wouldn't be able to use that machine anyways because they vibrate and can cause damage. Some day I will be able to have all the cards I want. Then I have to give them back to the guys that sent them to me:(

From the Heritage catalog (thanks to "mountaingirl" who notified me of this via PM):

"1910 E98 "Set of 30" Baseball Near Set (27/30) - The Best of the Black Swamp Find! Like the Phoenix rising from the flame fueled with new life, so too from an area in Ohio known as the Black Swamp arose a virtually pristine and untouched collection of century old E98 caramel baseball cards. The Black Swamp Find is a discovery that will never be equaled or surpassed in the hobby. This is the ultimate "attic find" we all dream of coming across. For 100 years, the cards were nestled under a treasured doll house, we thankfully say completely forgotten about. There have been and will always finds of old baseball cards that which have the same roster of baseball greats contained here but what will make the "Black Swamp" pedigree so famous is the condition. This is the "Mile High" collection in baseball card form. They are virtually untouched and by all account came directly from the printer to the meat market run by the grandparents of our consignor. If every portrait was cut to precision, this would be an entirely near-mint to gem-mint array. Of the 30 players from the E98 series the collection offered 25 players in duplicate, a trio represented by a single example and two players (Lajoie and Walsh) mysteriously not represented. Names found include the greatest of the game including Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Chief Bender, Christy Mathewson, and Connie Mack plus Chance, Jennings, Evers, Bresnahan, Young plus others. Ironically, the unknowns have proven to be harder to find than the greats. Player after player, card after card, each a precious relic that takes you back in time. Currently, the finest E98 set known on any registry has an impressive GPA equal to 5.75. Factoring the lone qualified card as a "4", this presentation earns an unheard of GPA of 7.9! It would be so easy to go on but we will allow the next thousand words to be the image presented to your right."

Being that Heritage's website is unsearchable and the worst in the hobby, can anyone provide a link. I just spent ten minutes trying to find it on their website and came up blank.
Thanks,
JimB

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. Jim and I have about 9 degrees between us -- if only we had that 10th we'd be able to use Heritage's damn site. Unreal. What is with Heritage?

Do the pop reports numbers listed in the lot description include all the cards from the find? It was my impression that there were a couple of dozen extremely high grade examples each for most of the cards in the set. In my opinion, it would be extremely disingenuous on Heritage's part if the figures did not include all the cards from the find.

Thanks for posting that.

Looking at those cards... wow! It's like going back in time....

Thanks for posting the link that is the first time I saw all of those cards together amazing! What strikes me as odd obviously is the vast majority of cards that are red? So if all of these cards came from a store that was supposed to give them away... it would make sense that the colors were printed at different times and it just so happens that this store got almost all reds... very interesting!

Sheesh, I just got blinded by the white boarders! I'm guessing the Tinker and Jennings were part of the group represented by a single example...

Nothing against Heritage but it's funny how some auction descriptions will go on for days while this one somewhat leaves us in the dark.

Those cards are mind-boggling! I am speechless!
JimB

Jay:
 

Here is the PSA pop. report for the E98 set.

It does appear as if there may be a [small] number of additional cards out there, but the auction description does mention that there are two PSA 10 Kling's for example.

Notably, the Pop. report has many examples of a few cards:

Twelve Chief Meyers graded PSA 9 (and two graded PSA 10)
Eighteen Johnny Kling cards graded PSA 9
FIFTEEN TY COBB cards graded PSA 9.

Those numbers for those three players are even more extreme than the Toleteros Gibson. At this point, only a fool would pay up significant coin for one of the Cobbs.

M

If you want some more color variations, here are some greens: Linky

What's interesting is high grade E98's, once considered quite rare, are now going to be relatively easy to find. You'll see some in every upcoming major auction. This group will continue to circulate for years to come. Nevertheless, an extraordinary group of cards.

Barry, to me this seems like a Mello Mints type of situation. Yes, there are three cards that will be profoundly easy to find in high grade. But, like the Mello Mint find, there is a huge skew of population here.

15 Ty Cobb PSA 9s? But no Bresnahan's, with the highest graded copy there a PSA 7 Lots of Johnny Klings, but no Miner Browns.

What I envision happening is that these high grade examples will most likely fall into type collectors runs. It will be interesting to see how these are filtered into the hobby, as surely this Heritage grouping is only round one, though it might represent the best and most complete run of the find.

I usually don't like to get involved in the grading arguments but I did just have one observation. As easlier in the thread people were pointing out the Wagner card's flaws as to why it should not be graded a 10 and while they are valid arguments my only question would be why do some issues get a pass on certain blemishes or conditions and yet we just accept them as the norm.

The glaring example that comes to mind for me are T205s and their gold borders. If you saw some of the boarder loss on other issues that you see on T205s the grades would be significantly lower, yet it seems we just accept them with the T205s. Just my two cents.

Its nice to see how big the borders on E cards should be...

I can see how this would drive down the $ received for a PSA9 Cobb for this issue, but how much do you think it will depress the price? After all, it's still Cobb in a very high grade. What do you think is a realistic price for this card?

Yes, 8 + 1 does equal 9.

Who's to say these E98s are real?
 

Look everyone, before you kill me with responses...I'M NOT SAYING THESE E98s ARE FAKE....but no one has brought up the obvious question: Are these things really real. As much as some people hate TPG and PSA, I'm surprised no one has actually wondered in writing in this thread if they are indeed real. I've never posted in one of the many TPG or PSA bashing threads before (You can look it up!) so I have no grudge at all against PSA. I'm just simply finding all of these numerous 8s, 9s, and 10s hard to believe from E98s all of a sudden coming out of the woodwork. I would be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts just how old these E98s really are, even though I have absolutely no evidence to back up my suspicions other than TPG do make mistakes.
Tim Kindler

I don't know Tim...but looking at that hi res scan of Wags...the card sure looks real!!!!! If these have been hidden away, untouched for all these years...I believe it!!!! They sure look real to me?!

Tim,

I am not going to get into the TPG discussion or whether these cards are authentic or not. The first question I had was concerning the brief description. I read that these cards were found under a doll house in an attic and look like they just came from the printer.

So, my question is, were they found under the doll house in a box already cut OR were they found in uncut sheets and then cut at a later date?

Think about it; from the looks of it, these cards have mostly red backgrounds. If they were in uncut sheets up in the attic all of these years, then the top sheet would have taken most of the abuse from the doll house while the sheets underneath would have been protected.

Now, obviously the cards could have been cut at the printer and sent to the meat market where the owner put them in a box and then in an attic where they stayed all of these years. I don't know and would like to hear the whole story about how these cards were found.

David