Was I Shilled??
 

i just won this auction, but do you think this is normal bidding? http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=350557171724

Maybe
 

The account has a 100% bid activity with that seller and has bid on 19 different auctions from that seller.

Yes. I have no doubt you were 100% shilled.

shilling is a strong word...the seller had a "hidden reserve" placed.

if the price is still good go through with it, if not complain to ebay.

+1

I have never cared about shilling because I have never paid a certain price for something that I wasn't comfortable paying. Shilling = hidden reserve. Sneaky and illegal and fraudulent? Yes. But I try to not get upset by it.

Based on the auctions they've had ended in the past week and the bidding history of that bidder. It looks like most of those other bids were for "Buy It Nows".

Seems odd to jump to the conclusion of shilling based on a single auction, just because it's a new bidder.

I always thought it strange the mentality that everybody who bids in Ebay auctions is going to evenly spread out their bids between multiple sellers, within a 30 day window.

:confused:

I don't think you were shilled. It looks like the auction was at less than $500 as it wound down and 5 or 6 bidders had snipe bids which all kicked in at once, within a second or two of each other, which drove the price up. I don't see the "shilling" pattern I have seen with other cards.

Babe Ruth
 

Sure looks funny to me---Underbidder has 0 feedback and if he didnt bid, you would have won the auction for under $1500 instead of $2175---I would watch the underbidder and see what he bids on next---but too late now on this auction---Still a nice piece. Don

The final 6 bids were snipes placed in the last 10 seconds of the auction by different bidders.

There's no telling how many snipes in that time span didn't even register because of the leap in bidding and the timing of the snipes.

Blatant shill, only an idiot can't see that. 0% bidder with 100% of the time bidding with just that seller. Blatant shill. No newbe registers and then bids 19 times with just one seller on different items.

I don't follow the logic at all. Seems pretty obvious to me the bidding pattern of the 0 feedback bidder constitutes a shill.

Well I guess I'm an idiot. Thanks man.

Looks like they were shilling "Buy It Now" auctions. Guess the shiller must be even stupider then me.

How can you see who the buyer was who won a Buy it Now auction? Obviously you can see it when they leave feedback, but until then there isn't any way of knowing, is there? I just checked the seller's feedback and he hasn't received any feedback from a zero level buyer all year.

Easier to "shill" BIN's because then the shiller/seller can just have one big Nonpayment case for stuff that wasn't selling anyway as opposed to auction items that were getting real bids.

Saying that, I believe the final price of the lot was very reasonable.

Seller has two actual auctions ended in the last 15 days.

New bidder has bid in exactly 1 actual auction in that time span, on the item indicated.

Every other bid, is a single bid on a different item spread out over the last week. Indicating they are all "Buy It Nows", because the seller did not have any auctions listed at the time those bids were placed.

I'm actually dumbfounded I'm the only one who sees this..............or is it everybody is so damn willing to shout "shill", they refuse to.

:confused:


I'm about as confused as I've ever been. Hell maybe I am just a F*#*n' idiot.

Really, you think this well known seller, created a new account..........shilled 18 Buy It Now" auctions to make a non-payment case on them, shielding them from suspicion so they can make a shill bid on this one auction item?

Wouldn't have been simpler to just create a new account, don't shill those "Buy It Nows!" Place the bids in that auction and say it's just a newbie customer of ours who signed up with Ebay to place this bid?

looking at it again i think dave makes alot of sense. seems like the seller gives feedback right away when buyers pay...OP can wait a few days to see who the underbidder is and if he's legit.

I agree with the shill bidding and the fact that it was a nice pick-up for the price anyway.

I don't buy into hidden reserves. You have an option to put a reserve on your item. If you don't, then you're agreeing to accept whatever the item sells for at auction.

Shill
 

Looks like a shill to me. A guy with 0 feedback bids on 19 different items in the last week, all from the same seller. Doesn't he want to buy from anybody else on ebay? I think you have reason to report this to ebay.

If it's reported to ebay, and they determine it's shilling, does anyone know what happens?

Does the buyer get to purchase the item at a lower price or do they just get to choose whether they still want to purchase the item or not?

Does the seller lose their seller account or just get some sort of "strike" against them?

-Alan

i would like to know also because i do not want to lose the lot

I'm actually leaning towards not shill... Why would someone snipe a shill bid? Doesn't really make sense..

Also I believe dave is right about all the BIN's, Why would he purchase his own BINs? That just adds suspicion I think.

His second bid of 461 is odd, what's the point of shilling $10 on a lot like this, $2150 is also a weird shill number. I'd be more suspicious if his final bid was 2k. $2150 seem more like a number from a guy that wants to pay a max of 2k but doesn't want to lose the lot over an extra hundred.

Thanks Dan, appreciate the kind words.... :rolleyes:

Sorry Tbob. this one seems obvious

A snipe on a shill ensures your minimum bid

easy call here, sorry

blatant shill!

Looks like a shill to me...I guess kudos to those of you that doesnt bother, but at this point Im tired of ANY dishonest activity including shilling in the hobby and shilling is dishonest. If you have a reserve then why not just do a BIN? Those other final bids in the last few seconds didnt get over $1415...thats an additional $700+ based on a single 0-feedback bidder w/ 100% activity with one guy. I know other snipes may have been washed away but smells like BS to me. - Steve Suckow

Blatant shill and morons who don't care are idiots in my opinion! It is fraudulent dealings and I don't care if you are lawyers or not!!!!

I'm in the minority here. I don't think it's a shill either.

Its obvious to me what has happened here. The bidder is using the wrong search bar and is accidentally only searching this one seller's items. He doesn't even realize there is a huge world of ebay out there to buy from. Poor guy, and he lost the auction to boot.

Morons who care are also idiots by definition.

A suspect pattern isn't always shilling.

I was the underbidder on a cycling jersey from the 48 olympics, but got a second chance offer about a half hour after it ended. The pattern looked like a clasic shill. Newish bidder, all activity with the one seller. (Sound familiar?)

I decided to let the second chance offer go till later, but not to report anything.

About a month and a half later a second jersey was offered by the same seller. The first one had stains from poor storage. The second one didn't.
I won the second one for a good deal less than the first sold for.

I checked the other bidder again just to see if the pattern held.
Nope, over the weeks in between they had bid on stuff from about 20 different sellers winning about 25% of the time.

The seller was the son of the rider in 48 and had raced himself in 64. And his grandfather raced in the 28 olympics. I've picked up some other great stuff from him, and I'm very glad I didn't accuse him of shilling.

Steve B

This particular seller is well known in England. They could have been a regular on their website or mailing list and registered with Ebay to make it easier to buy from them.

I've sent Ebay plenty of new bidders through my website through the years.

Is it an Ebay rule to "spread the wealth around" when you sign up with them?

How do you explain almost every single one of these supposed "shill bids" are "Buy It Nows"?

I don't even buy that much on Ebay anymore. But I've had plenty of months I've only bought from 1 or 2 sellers.

Seems people jumped the gun and are being stubborn here, and not paying attention to any actual facts.

Well, this idiot thinks you are being reactionary and stubborn. How do you explain almost every bid by this "shiller" is on a "Buy It Now" auction?

like and agree

I haven't bothered to read this whole thread because frankly I'm stunned that there could possibly be so many opinions on this one. If you cannot see a shill bidding scenario here, with all respect, you are a fu&$@g idiot.

One of my pet peeves about this community is its propensity to do just that.

I don't have a dog in this fight -- other than being called an idiot moron for not caring about shill bidding -- but I often pull my hair out by a lack of critical thinking here. Just because you are not getting engaged on your points doesn't make them invalid.

If I actually cared about "when auctions get shilled" I would have reviewed the facts here. But since I don't care a whit about being shilled myself, coming to the aid of other people who are concerned about getting shilled just isn't my cup of tea.

How about you read the whole thread then, before calling someone a fu&$@g idiot?

:confused:


What you guys are saying is one newbie bidder, placing a snipe bid in a single auction is a definite shill bidding account...........and if you don't believe this, you are a f*%&ng idiot?

Every other bid in their history is for a "Buy It Now"!

How does everyone conclude the guy w/ 0 feedback set a snipe? The bid was entered with 7 seconds left...that how I do it and dont belong to a snipe service. If it were a snipe is that relevant and how? Thanks to anyone for some help here...

I'm using snipe as a generic term for a last second bid. Not necessarily that he used a sniping service to put the bid in.

Dave, I don't need to read the whole thread. I understand that clucking hens like to see a conspiracy behind every shadow in order to make things more interesting for them on this forum. God forbid one just looks at the facts as laid out without trying to be counter-intuitive. It's a shill. The only way it could be more obvious would be if the underbidder's ebay name was BILL MASTRO. But I understand the reticence of some posters here to call a spade a spade -- many here think that shill bidding is ok as long as you don't pay more than what you wanted for a card.

Why do you think it's obvious?

The timing of every other bid in that history indicates a "Buy It Now", because the seller didn't even have any auctions running at the time those bids were placed.

Is it simply because it's a "0" feedback bidder?

Looking at the other items for sale in the last few weeks I can't put together 15 items that make sense. I don't understand the bidding on Buy-it-now items but I also don't understand any connection between this Babe Ruth album and the rest of the sellers items (except 3-4 yankee cards).

I would guess shill, would be interesting to revisit this buyers info in a couple weeks. (and also see if any feedback ever appears).

They sell oddball International tobacco and trading cards.

There doesn't have to be any other Babe Ruth or Yankee connection.

I know lots of collectors who have very eclectic tastes and don't pigeon hole themselves into a particular category.

Murray's Cards have been around for decades. I'm sure they have plenty such customers.

+1 (Do I recognize it is fraudulent behavior according to the law and our societal expectations? Sure. Do I care when it happens to me? Not in the least. Consider me blissfully ignorant.)

And the perfect fraud victim.

me to0
 

+1

I try not to bid more than I should but I should also get a good buy if no one else bids legitimately. Hell yes I care if I am shilled. If someone doesn't want to sell an item for a lower than they want amount then there are legitimate ways to do that. Shilling isn't one of them.

Wow, people paying more than they otherwise would and they don't mind?

This either means they have so much money it doesn't really matter or they have more money than sense. Either way, I have a deal for you.

Since you don't mind spending more on something than you otherwise would, the next time you guys decide to spend X amount on something but get it for Y (a lesser amount) I will (if you send me a private E mail) give you my PayPal address. That way, you still get the thing you wanted for the amount you wanted to pay.

For example, you want a certain T206 card and are willing to pay $100 dollars for it. However, at auction end, you win it for $65 dollars. So you have an extra $35 dollars you didn't plan on having. Just send that extra $35 dollars my way.....

What can I say? I like being fraudulently induced to buy baseball cards at prices I am comfortable paying. You can fraudulently induce me into that kind of racket all day and all night. I'm not looking for bargains based on some puritanical expectation of an auction format. I'm happy to pay what the seller wants me to pay, if I'm happy with the price. Most of the time there is a big fat sticker in a grocery aisle. Sometimes the seller plays games. Never have I paid money involuntarily.

On this one, I think it is pretty evident that a new guy joined ebay in order to buy some of this guy's BINs, and then he saw this album at auction and was interested in bidding.

The only way you can prove that this was a shill based on the objective facts that we have today is if you can explain all the prior BIN purchases. If you are ignoring the prior BIN purchases you are not willing to engage in a serious discussion on this topic. Period.

I have no problem playing in hypotheticals, but your fundamental misunderstanding of what I am saying is in your first question "People paying more than they otherwise would".

I do not think that an auction with a shill means I am not getting an item for less than I "otherwise would." Sellers who shill take that into account when they list items. If you could stop shilling 100%, you would not open a world of cheap goods for yourself. You'd open a world of higher prices disclosed at the beginning. In either world, you pay the same. That's why I don't care.

What all "Shill-Haters" want is the price that the item would have sold for if there was no shill, right? When I turn back the clock, I don't stop at the time of the shill bid. I go back to the auction beginning. If you could tie the seller's hands as a shiller before he listed the item he never would have listed the item at the price he did. He'd have set an open reserve or a higher minimum bid.

Quit using logic on these people. It's not working. :D

Well, maybe it's a cover-up for a shill i.d., but the accused 0-feedback shiller did a BIN within the last hour, from the same seller.

I have had a few 0-feedback bidders who won their first item with me and became regular customers. Everyone one of us had 0 feedback at one point.

Scott <=== guess I'm one of the blind idiots some have described in this thread.

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

+1

Peter...there is no way to make a wrong, a right...
 

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

It might be a waste of time and energy but it's still what is being discussed in this thread. And there seem to be some very different feelings on the original auction, or at least potential different possibilities, so this one WAS probably worth discussing. I rarely see so many members so divided like this. (yes, I know there are exceptions but to this extent is unusual)

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

Let me be clear. I'm not in the camp either, that says it's ok you got shilled as long as you got the item at your price..........though I understand where those guys are coming from.

I don't condone shilling in any form. If you don't trust the auction process, use a reserve, high minimum, or list it at a straight price. I've got tons of stuff I think is a waste listing in a 7-10 day window at auction. Most of that stuff gets listed for retail on my websites.

I think it's a serious offense and I'd get annoyed if I thought my own bid got shilled up.

Because I think it's a serious offense, I think it's a travesty that others throw around the word so easily. It's an accusation. I'd be p*ssed, and I'd be mortified if somebody accused me of shilling one of my auctions. I've been selling on Ebay long enough to know, I've had plenty of auctions with strange bidders, and bidding patterns that could have drawn the attention of the "shilling police". Anybody who's sold on Ebay with any regularity has.

People seem to often use the logic......."that's not how I'd bid" to jump to a conclusion that somebody is shilling an auction.

Every bidder is different, with different strategies and different ideas on how they'd like to win an auction. Many of them make no sense whatsoever to me, but it is what it is.



Now, the auction in question in this thread. it's pretty scary how quickly the lynch mob formed behind the "Kill The Witch" crowd, even after certain facts were laid out pretty plainly.

The actual timing of this sellers auctions and the bids make it fairly easy, with about 5 minutes of detective work, to debunk any sort of shilling fantasy.

If it is a shill, it's the most poorly conceived shill I've ever seen.

Worst case scenario, it's somebody who's giving this seller a ride by buying up a bunch of their retail listings without any intention of paying. I've no reason to know, one way or another at this point.

I have a hard time believing, a seller whose been around decades, threatens their own reputation by inventing a shill account for one auction. Meanwhile they buy up almost couple dozen of their own BIN's. Incurring the fees of such for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Now, I don't know if this seller has a previous reputation for shilling, if they've actually shilled before, have other shilling accounts. But this auction gives no evidence of that.........actually it's quite the contrary IMO.

[QUOTE=calvindog;985663]Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

QUOTE]

No, let's ignore Darfur, because there are people we like there.

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

When I first started bidding on pre-war cards on ebay many years ago and I had a 0 feedback, I recall that I also bid on a number of tobacco cards, all from the same seller. It took me a while to feel comfortable with ebay and begin putting bids in on different items from different sellers so I don't think that per se means a guy is shilling. I also have agreed in the past on some posts when suspected shilling is mentioned but I have also felt some posters are a little too shill-happy to jump to conclusions. I never called anyone an idiot or a moron for disagreeing with my opinion though....

To be clear, when I say that I don't mind shill bidding, it is not because I like being defrauded -- it is because I do not test or question the merits of every underbid in an auction I win. I assume that the bids in every auction are illegitimate.

Therefore, you've got your mind made up that everybody else who has a finger pointed at them must be guilty, and it's a waste of time discussing if they might actually be innocent?

Not sure what this has to do with Mastro/Legendary.

Dave, honestly, unless I'm getting paid $850 an hour to continue this discussion, I can't possibly see any merit in it.

You never account for the BIN history.

When you're in a debate with someone and they call you an idiot or a moron, it is a pretty good sign that you made a good point.

I have a great shilling idea -- let's have an auction house where the house ADMITS that there will be shill bidding. I believe that just as many people will participate and will bid what they want to pay for the card.

Would the shill-haters at least agree that that would be the same thing as an auction house that has a hidden reserve?

A hidden reserve is legal, shilling is not. I don't see how you can compare them.

Shilling is fraud; I don't see how anybody in this discussion can defend fraud. You may be resigned that it will happen, but you should never stop fighting against it, and exposing it when you can.

And if there were an auction house who admitted to shilling, I don't believe there would be very many bidders.

I have to say this is one of the oddest debates we've ever had.

Why? If there was a card I needed, you couldn't keep me from bidding in an auction that permitted shill bidding. I'm really supposed to pass on potentially buying a card for a price that I'd be willing to pay?

Now, maybe on principle, you avoid the auction house no matter what. But, you're only hurting your own collection, in my opinion.

This is better than Facebook!!!

Rawn

Completely agree. With that said, this case come down to one of two scenarios. 1) Shilled after the seller (with a good track record) falsified an account and BINed multiple items, paying the fees on what appear to be small purchases to set up this much larger sale by comparison. 2) It was honest - Either way, Dave is right and to accuse someone of shilling is very serious and needs proof.

Because Id go somewhere else. The stuff I collect isn't so rare that it only comes around with Halley's comet...I'm patient enough to find another source and don't like any negative feelings associated with my collection.

That's fair. But oh the things I'd do for a signed card I needed. I couldn't admit it on a public chatboard.

Paul- you know if someone is cheating you you can actually pass, even on a card you need. That's one way to handle it.

Look, you can do whatever you want with your money, but you don't have to accept somebody shilling you. It's your call.

Jeff- I hate the thought of being shilled as much as anyone. Wrong is wrong. I just don't see it here.
tbob

Thanks for that laugh - on that positive note, I'm heading out for lunch. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

Of course. I just don't feel "cheated" if it's a price I'd pay for a card I'd need.

Quick question: a lot has a current bid of $500, and you leave a ceiling of $1000. There are no other bidders, so you would win the lot for $550. But in the last few minutes the auction house throws in a shill bid of $900, and you now have to pay $950 for the lot. And you're okay with that?

Does the house know my ceiling bid?

Also, I have never EVER placed a "ceiling bid". Why would you?

A ceiling bid is a valid option. Not everyone can stay up until 4:00 AM to bid. If it's handled honestly by the auction house it's a useful bidding tool.