The BCCG problem
 

I thought by now that most collectors had figured out that a BCCG 8 is not the same thing as a PSA 8 or even SGC 84, but apparently that is not the case. Still seeing way too many examples of novice collectors paying NMMT prices for EX cards due to the obviously inflated numerical grades assigned by Beckett.

Don't mean to belabor the problem, but just posted a new eBay guide that hopefully someone will find useful down the road.

http://reviews.ebay.com/The-BCCG-car...00000175139486

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "inflated numerical grades." There is no universal grading system, so TPGs can use whatever system (numbering) that they want. It's up to the buyer to do their homework. The grade and a description of the grade is right there on the BCCG flip.

If I want to start my own TPG service and use alpha letters rather than numbers, isn't that my choice as long as a description of the grade is on the flip?

I just don't see how it's deceitful. It's a matter of uninformed people not knowing what they're buying. I think your guide is great and hopefully will educate people, but people should buy the card, not the flip.

I disagree. I think it was a system devised/developed for primary use by TV sellers to allow them to tie in and take advantage of the grading phenomenon and hype and oversell their wares to typically under-aware and non savvy purchasers.

I do agree it's on the buyer at the end of the day, the under educated are typically always taken advantage of. This particular vehicle I think gives them (Sellers) - whether intentional or not - a tool to do so.

And you are right - there is no universal grading system. It's a mere coincidence that all others (generally accepted) use "8" as NRMT.

At the end of the day it's a matter of who your audience is, most collectors know these cards and flips for what they are and you can't blame a company for finding new ways and places to sell their services.

I agree
 

I strongly AGREE with the original poster...BCCG adds confusion to the marketplace for newer/novice collectors...Their 5-10 scale makes no sense whatsover and most newbies could logically assume that there would be lower grades from 1-4....All of their grades are "NM or Better, Excellent or Better": Well, those graders should s*** or get off the pot, a grading service is supposed to make a definitive judgement. BCCG is a money-making fraud/scheme and Beckett should not offer such a piss-poor service. But since Beckett is actually a junk operation today it is way too late to save their once good name

Pat, just the opposite is true. Nobody has added more confustion to the marketplace than PSA. Go look at the very first issue of Beckett. It came out years before PSA was ever in business. In that magazine, there is a 5 point grading scale with a definition for each grade - Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent and Mint.

Notice you don't see Poor, VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM-MT, etc. There were only 5 grades and the system worked. Then came PSA and they told us we've been doing it wrong and that there were 10 grades. BULL$HIT!

I can't say for sure Beckett was the first to define the grading scale, but it's the first time I've ever seen it in print. So, if they defined the grading scale, years before PSA (or any other TPG) shouldn't they have the right to change it? Absolutley! It's THEIRS! I just don't see how the OP can say Beckett "inflated numerical grades" when obviously PSA did it first by going from a 5 point scale to a 10 point scale, and then from a 10 point scale to a 19 point scale.

I agree that PSA is to blame for the confusion by expanding the scale from 1-5 to 1-10

If there is a BCCG problem then it's a small one.
Few cards and even fewer folks who probably care.
I don't think they've graded enough cards to cause confusion.

This is so confusing...
 

If I submit a card to PSA, it could come back one of 46 different grades. And you guys think BCCG is confusing?

PSA Authentic
PSA 1
PSA 1 MK
PSA 1 OC
PSA 1 MC
PSA 1.5
PSA 2
PSA 2 MK
PSA 2 OC
PSA 2 MC
PSA 2.5
PSA 3
PSA 3 MK
PSA 3 OC
PSA 3 MC
PSA 3.5
PSA 4
PSA 4 MK
PSA 4 OC
PSA 4 MC
PSA 4.5
PSA 5
PSA 5 MK
PSA 5 OC
PSA 5 MC
PSA 5.5
PSA 6
PSA 6 MK
PSA 6 OC
PSA 6 MC
PSA 6.5
PSA 7
PSA 7 MK
PSA 7 OC
PSA 7 MC
PSA 7.5
PSA 8
PSA 8 MK
PSA 8 OC
PSA 8 MC
PSA 8.5
PSA 9
PSA 9 MK
PSA 9 OC
PSA 9 MC
PSA 10

David,
That's a heck of a lot of grades but yet I think most folks who care about graded cards have a pretty good handle on it.

Jeff

What's wrong with taking a 5 point scale and expanding on it? There's always variances within each grade, some cards that are borderline up or down.. The 10 point scale is perfectly fine...The 19 however, I will agree is pushing it.. PSA's half grades, are really quarter grades in the overall scheme of things..That to me, might be a little too much. But then again Beckett, I believe was the one to initiate half grades..

Now as far as BCCG is concerned. You can't go around having a 5 point scale that runs from 5-10... Why not just have it run from 95-100?

Jeff,

Absolutely agreed. That's why I don't understand the intent of the original post. People buying graded cards should be aware of the TPGs grading scale beforehand and, if not, should educate themselves before making a purchase. If the OP wants to inform folks about BCCG's grading scale, then that is terrific. However, to make it sound like BCCG is at fault for anything is absurd.

Also, in my post above I forgot the PD and the ST qualifier so make that 64 different grades that a PSA card could receive.

Absolutley nothing wrong with it, but you missed my point. My point is that Beckett invented the scale, so why gripe about it when they want to change it? Nobody griped when PSA expanded it to a 10 point scale.

Why can't you have a scale that runs from 5-10? Why does it have to start with 1? Why did George Lucas start the Star Wars series with Episode IV? Because it's HIS movie. He can do whatever he wants. Likewise, it is Beckett's grading scale and they can do whatever they want.

Bad analogy. Lucas didn't start with Episode IV. Through a series of events and a few decades, it eventually became what is know as Episode IV, but originally, it was what it was. Numbers on any scale start at 1(or 0, depending on your view), that's just how it is. Using the number 5, the uninformed can easily be led to believe that it's at least better than 4 possible other grades...And using the number ten on a scale that ends at 10, one should be led to believe that it's the best possible, when we all know that isn't the case with BCCG. Compared to a standard 10 point scale, BCCG managed to skip number a 5 point scale that encompasses random grades between 1 and 8(on that 10 pt. scale) and numbers them from 5-10... The numbers are a clear intent to deceive. If it were just the grades I'd be fine with it, but the obvious bad math is not only retarded but shady as hell.

I can't believe some of the ridiculous stuff I read on these boards.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CHIeqW98gv...255B1%255D.jpg

David, who exactly are they trying to deceive? The person that submited the card? Their grading scale is posted on their website. Anybody submitting a card to them should know their system.

Here is the point of my original post:

Buyer pays $1,500 for a BCCC 10 Jordan RC. Check out the corners and edges. It's an 8. He should have paid $700.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-87-flee...item53eadcbeed

Here we have someone paying $420 for a VG Nolan Ryan rookie worth $185:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-C...item19cc2f90f6

And here we another buyer paying $420 for a BCCG 8 Gretzky rookie that's a 5 and worth $170:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-80-TOPP...item3f129b9323

I could pull up hundreds of examples like this happening every day on Ebay, so I wouldn't say it's a small problem. There are still plenty of novice collectors out there who only look at the numerical grade or have no clue what the Beckett grading scale is all about. And they are dropping big money. It's the little "don't ask, don't tell" secret among some sellers - and almost every one will have a title like "1975 Topps Joe Blow BGS BCCG 8" in the auction listing as a way to 1) capture search traffic and 2) fool the novice collector.

Should these buyers know better? Of course, and at the end of the day it is on them. I'm simply trying to help people understand what's going on and how they are being taken advantage of. I'm all for everyone making a buck where they can, but let's be honest, this is preying on beginners (or the stupid - whatever you prefer).

This thread is a BCCG 4!!

Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

I keep seeing these phrases like "intent to deceive," "shady as hell" or "preying on begineers" to describe Beckett's business practices. The submitter of the card is getting exactly what they are paying for so I just don't see any of that. They're offering a service which is clearly defined on their website.

It's real simple. If one doesn't like BCCG's system, don't use them.

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;966240]Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

Yes, I am telling you the number 8 or 10 or 7 is the only thing they are looking at and they don't understand how to interpret the language. How else do you explain someone paying $75 for a Joe Montana RC with centering like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120814396149

That's a $35 card. And yes, they may be stupid. Or are they just NOVICES who do not know any better? Not everyone is as advanced in the realm of card collecting as the people on these boards. Best, Rob

Bob,

I gave my fiancee an engagement ring right before Christmas. I didn't just go to the closest jewelry store to my house and blindly pick one at random. I did a lot of research and homework before buying the diamond because I didn't know anything about them. My point is that any buyer (yes, even bb card buyers) should do their homework before making a purchase they know nothing about.

Go to Google and type the words "BCCG grading." Here is the first thing you will see: "BCCG-graded cards (Beckett Collectors Club Grading) are completely separate and vastly different from the premium BGS- or BVG-graded cards." If any novice spent only 1 minute (60 seconds) to research BCCG, that would tell them all they need to know.

If you want to save these morons from themselves, then that is fine. I admire you for that, but as I and others have said, at the end of the day the responsibility is on THEM, not BCCG.

you forgot PD

I don't believe Beckett is being dishonest, but I do believe in some of the above examples, the people selling their product are trying to "deceive".

Beckett can offer any service they choose and the consumer can accept it or decline it, but IMO it's a joke.

a few things
 

First of all the top Beckett (grader) guys are advertisers and pretty good personal friends of mine. We all go out to lunch fairly frequently. That being said I have spoken with them at length about their product BCCG. But to start out with, Alan Hagar "invented" the 10 point grading scale, so we can get that bit of trivia out of the way. Secondly, BCCG is in existence mainly for mass merchants that need(ed) a cheaper product to sell in their venues, especially on TV. It has been around for quite some time and it is a part of their business model that they do good with. In this day and age grading companies would be stupid to not do things to increase their profits. I think the only thing they would change is the numbering system, if they had it to do over. Otherwise, the product is a good one for them regardless of what we think. I also don't think it's dishonest or deceitful whatsoever. There's my half cent on it....

They found a way to put the number 10 on something that deserves and 8 at best. As I said before, I'm fine with the grades they're assigning. And that's really all that ultimately matters. But the number system is f'ed.. They're intentionally catering to people that just wanna see a 10 on their cards. How many times have we all seen BCCG cards listed as BGS 10 or simply Beckett 10 on the bay? Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception. If there wasn't the intent for corruption of the product, they would simply assign a grade and slab it, without the deceptive numbering.. Basically, I can agree that BCCG isn't out to deceive people, but they intentionally sold a product with the full knowledge that it would be corrupted. And honestly, the corruptible nature of these slabs is a huge selling point.

+1. Nailed the issue precisely.
My intent was never to issue an indictment of the BCCG grading service, but to explain to the uninitiated how some sellers are using it to sell inferior cards at inflated prices. And many are falling for the trick every day.

agreed
 

Guys, I agree that there are some who will set out to deceive with those cards. We can word it any way we want to but Beckett let the genie out of the bottle several years ago and she won't go back in. As I said, I feel confident that if the execs that are in place today, as opposed to those in place when that whole BCCG thing started were there, the numbering system would be different. I can sort of use the analogy of leaving your keys in your car, unlocked, and having it stolen. It's not your fault someone is a thief but you did enable them to steal. best regards

For decades, scammers have been trimming Topps (or insert another card manufacturer here) baseball cards in order to deceive the buyer into thinking they're getting a card that is of better condition than it actually is (was).

Topps intentionally sells a product with full knowledge that it will be corrupted. Topps is completely at fault as they are enabling the trimmer by continuing to sell their product. :rolleyes:

Another bad analogy. With the Topps cards, a physical action must take place beyond Topps' control, before the deception...With BCCG, no other action is needed. Just straight to the deception.

The car analogy isn't bad...Although, I'd compare it more to leaving the keys in a borrowed car in the ghetto.

Umm, no. Great analogy. Failure by someone to comprehend. Your statement was, "Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception." So yes, there is an action - it's the sellers listing the cards with deceptive titles and/or descriptions. The cards aren't selling themselves are they?

At worst they offer a product that presents bad sellers a "graded" opportunity to mislead non-savvy buyers. No doubt that was not their intention and Leon's point about the genie is well taken. It probably in hindsight wasn't a good decision to go with the unique numbering system based on the way it has played out. What sellers do with the cards after they are graded is on the sellers though.

Again do your homework and don't count on any seller doing it for you. I for one don't stop for a second to look at any BCCG graded card becuase I immediately question the motives of anyone that gets cards graded by them. Again not the grader, the seller.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

As a "raw" guy, maybe my opinion is worthless, but how a company was able to create a logic where cards with the same numerical grade are of completely different qualities is beyond me.

Doug

I'm not a PSA fan. However, their 1-10 scale was established as the industy standard by virtue of their early, dominant entry into a fledgling market. Beckett's use of the past and present standard of a 1-5 grading scale for it's card price guide and a 1-10 grading scale for it's premium grading service is all well and good. BUT, the use of a 1-5 grading scale that starts at 6 through 10, for a substandard service branch, is an obvious attempt at deception. It sets up an avenue for unethical sellers to submit cards to BCCG with the intent to deceive prospective buyers. Other than that, there is no real reason for anyone to use that particular service AND Beckett's knows it. I really lost all repect for Beckett's when they hatched that plan.

Yeah, sure, as always, it's buyer beware. It's also yet another industry eyesore stemming from greed and adding to an ever declining market.

Exactly!!! You can't tell me that the people at Beckett didn't know what would happen from the start...They had to. They knew the significance of the number 10, and they found a way to get people to give them money in exchange for a 10 on sub-par cards that otherwise probably would've never been submitted. They played off of the deceptive nature of the hobby and decided to cash in on it.

Elevate
 

...

If there wasn't at least some intent to satisfy some large bulk submitters with misleading grades of "10" it seems more logical they would have run their five point scale from 1 to 5.

But ever since Bo Derek a "10" has been what people wanted, not a "5".

And HSC wouldn't have submitted as many cards hoping for "5's"....

So grandma surfing ebay or watching HSC hears "This Derek Jeter card has been graded a "10" by Beckett" and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

So I guess everyone is happy, HSC/Ebay dealer makes money, BCCG makes money, BCCG stockholders make money, and granny thinks she got a deal.

And that folks is the beauty of the free market system......

I prefer raw, but do like the extra security of buying more expensive cards (for me) in a slab just for the increased odds that I'd be buying an authentic unaltered card. Despite the difference in grading scales, is there any reason to think a BCCG card has any more chance of being a fake or altered than PSA, SGC, or BGS ?

Sorry, but PSA didn't invent VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM/MT.

Those were around long before the TPA's.

Beckett never fit those grades in their "Price Guides", because the font would be too small, and the price research would be too daunting, the publication landscape being what it was in those days.

Dealers used them all the time.

I will also add, back in those earlier days and being a weekend warrior doing shows all the time...........I never once used the term MINT, to describe a card.

I'd use NM or even NM/MT, but there was always some sort of bug in my head that made me tell myself a true MINT piece of cardboard coming out of a pack of gum, was inherently impossible.

Maybe I was just being silly, I don't know. :confused:

Wow, what a nice grandma. OK, how about this one. Using your example above, let's say grandma is surfing eBay for a Derek Jeter card that has been graded a "10" and comes across one from SGC (their lowest grade possible) and doesn't understand the difference in grading scales and plunks down $50 for a birthday present thinking she got a deal.

If grandma doesn't understand the grading scale and thinks a 10 is a 10 is a 10, then what's the difference in my example and yours? There is none!

So by your logic SGC is being deceptive as well by offering a grade of 10, right? So if you're complaining about BCCG's 10, why not complain about SGC's 10? Come on, you can't have it both ways! How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't? Please answer that!

That question isn't only addressed to DavidW, but also to the others that said BCCGs 10 was deceptive.

I don't know (or really care) if they are being deceptive or not, my point is that uninformed casual buyers don't know BCCG grades on a five point scale from 5 to 10. It's no coincidence they don't go from 1 to 5. As for SGC and their weird grading scale, at least a "10" from them is labeled "Poor", not NM/M. I've got no idea why SGC doesn't go to the 1 to 10 scale like everybody else (except BCCG)..... Maybe stubborness as the counter culture grading company or something??????

BCCG is just a way for everybody to make more money and for granny to get "DEALS" on Jeter and A Rod and Peyton Manning and Jeremy Lin "Super Shiny Jumbo Refracting limited edition # of $20,000" cards.

David, the premisis for your original argument (which is the same point others have made) is that "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's grading scale by assuming that one TPG's 10 is the same as another TPG's 10.

My counter argument was that if "granny" (or any uneducated buyer) could be confused by BCCG's 10, then why couldn't they be confused by SGC's 10?

Now you try to prove your argument by stating "at least a "10" from them (SGC) is labeled "Poor..." Sorry, but that's where you lose your argument and here's why. We've already covered this objection. See post #17 where I tried to defend BCCG by saying that they are putting a description of the grade on their flip, and then the following post where the OP said that buyers aren't reading the description, only the number grade. So, the word "Poor" or anything else doesn't matter - only the number (grade) assigned to the flip.

So, I ask my question again. How can you tell me that BCCG's 10 could be confusing to someone that doesn't know the grading scale, but SGC's 10 isn't?

Edited to add 2 things:

1.) At least David came back on here to try to defend his position. Nothing but silence from the others who tried to make the same argument that David did.

2.) I agree with David that it is just a way for BCCG to make more money. But he says that likes it a bad thing. What's wrong with making money? When did companies that make a profit become evil? Didn't PSA exapand their grading scale (the use of half grades) to make more money?

1 - SGC's grading scale confuses the bejeebers out of me, are you happy>>>>
:-) - I think an 84 should be about the same as an 8.5, but it's not.....so I'll concede you the point.

2 - I own my own business, I have no problem with BCCG making money, or anyone else. :-)

3 - As for TPG companies, I've only got a handful of graded cards, they serve a purpose, and I hope they all succeed but I never renewed my PSA membership a couple years, and they never seemed to miss me, so I never went back. :-)
4 - Never, never argue with anyone named David. You will never win. :-) Unless it's my wife, in which case she wins (but only when I let her)

The one difference I see with Beckett is that they are one company with 2 different grading scales... which can create some confusion.

I'll have to admit that when Beckett first came out with BCCG I was somewhat confused and I consider myself a somewhat avid collector. Now I just ignore all BCCG slabs.

Becket didn't need 2 scales...BCCG was a cheap alternative to get 10's on cards that wouldn't have normally been submitted. Why couldn't they just lower the prices on the BGS grading if they wanted more business? If everyone was being honest, it would've evened out in the end for them...However, they knew they'd make more money by creating a scale that would put a 10 on cards that would normally grade anywhere from 6-8. I say as low as 6 because I don't think they consider centering all that heavily on their scale. I've seen some fairly off centered cards in BCCG 10 holders..

I would agree that the BCCG grades are enablers to those trying to deceive others, much like someone supplying drugs to a drug addict... not really "much like", but "somewhat like"

I also think it's a cop out to say, as some previous posts have, that the "genie is out of the bottle" on this one, or that if the current Beckett execs could change history regarding the initial bogus BCCG numerical grading scale, they would.

The way I see it, it would be very easy for the current Beckett management to change the absurd BCCG scale TOMORROW and call a VG/EX card a 4, rather than a 8, and call a NRMT card a 7 instead of a 10. What are we talking about - maybe printing a different number on a bunch of flips? How is that an irreversible business decision? Would such a change cost them tens of millions of dollars? NO.

The current Beckett people may not have made the horrible decision regarding the scale all those years ago, but THEY DO have the power to make things right today. It's called being responsible to your customers. When you have the knowledge that your product is being used to deceive and swindle ill-informed people out of thousands of dollars on eBay everyday, YOU change.

But we all know that will never happen and the reasons why it never will.

I have never seen more b!tching and complaining in all my life. It's real simple: If you don't like the product, don't use/buy it.

I don't like Olive Garden because I had a bad experience there 20 years ago and I've never been back. But I don't go starting threads about it or forcing my opinion on those that do like it.

Y'alls life must be really pathetic if you have nothing better to do than to sit around and b!tch about the way a company does business. I really think some of you need this:

http://engl4620.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/tampax1.jpg

Olive Garden
 

I kind of like that place but it is darn hard to get into around where I live

David,

Your right. I gonna save my complaints up for when it's really important.
Like when I get a NPB alert after 4 days bc a seller is supposed to have ESP and know I have been unable to pay for a legitimate reason.

The fact is everyone has a POV, it would be boring if everyone thought the same thing. I have no idea why a company would decide to have 2 products which basically do the same thing but employ a different scale. I have my ideas but I don't know.

The fact is that is a discussion forum. My guess is that many of the folks in this post have obviously opted not to do business with BCCG just like you did with Olive Garden. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't discuss it.

Just my $0.02.

Rag on!

I always get cranky around this time of the month.

I'm just glad I don't have the time to respond to all this bitching and complaining:D

It'll be here when you get back!

Jeff,

You're right, this is a discussion forum - of pre-1980 baseball cards. This isn't a "post your complaint here forum." You're also right in the fact that everyone has their own POV's. However, here's this difference. I’ll give my POV in a thread that someone else starts, but I don’t start threads giving my POV and I don't force others to accept my POV.

Let me explain it to you a little different. If one doesn't like guns, then they can simply choose not to own one. However, why do some try to infringe upon the rights of those of that do by calling for a ban on guns? Another example. If one is a vegetarian, then they can simply choose not to eat meat. However, why do some want to try to ban all meat products for those of us that like it? See my point?

In other words, The OP is b!thcing about a service (that I would be willing to bet he’s never even used) that many people like and use and is profitable for the company that offers it, but he wants to do away with it for everyone. He can’t man up and make the responsible decision to just not use their service. No, he takes it to another level and tells all of us why we shouldn’t use it.

Did I wake up and find myself in some communist country? I'm going to say this for the third and final time, Jeff. If one doesn't like a company or their product, don't do business with them. What is so difficult about that?

Edited to add something for Jeff. Yes, I did complain about a seller filing a NPB on me when I was in the hospital. However, here's the difference. (1) I didn't start the thread. I only commented in a thread that somebody else started. (2) I didn't force my POV on others. In other words, I didn't post the seller's name or tell others not to buy from them.

Olive Garden
 

They almost know us by name at our two closes Olive Gardens. It is my daughter's and wife's favorite place to eat. It is close to the top for me.

As for Beckett changing the BCCG grading system after so many years. Yes, they could do it. I personally think it would be stupid of them to change anything. I just don't look at BCCG....but you know what, in the last few years I probably haven't seen 1, that's right 1, card I even care about in those holders. It's an non-issue. best regards

Leon,
I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done with this board. It's a tremendous resource for all collectors and I can't even imagine the amount of work that goes into moderating these threads and playing referee when they devolve into infantile pissing matches, accusations and name-calling like this one. The job you do is nothing short of remarkable. However, the one thing I would say in regards to your comment is that yes, the BCCG holders are indeed a non-issue on the pre-war side, as those collectors are far too savvy to ever be duped by such a scheme. However, on the post-war side it is a problem, which is why I posted it in the post-war forum. One simple search of "BCCG" on eBay today turns up 10,291 hits, with almost all of them in the post-war category and many of them targeting the big-name rookie cards like Jordan, Ryan, Gretzky and Montana, where a 2 or 3 difference in grade means hundreds of dollars.
Regards,
Rob

The rest of the world (including Beckett's) uses scales that start at 1. There is only one clear, logical reason for Beckett's low-end service to come along and start at 5-- a shady business arrangement that enables deceptive sellers to inflate card values through a legitimate grading company that decided to lower it's standards for just this one special service.

A generation ago, this hobby had lots of newbie child and casual collectors that were largely driven away by the greedy overkill of manufacturer's and dealers. Rather than working to get back some of the lost revenue Beckett's short-sighted business model is to squeze the last drop of juice out of those that remain. As those Guiness guys used to say "brilliant."

As for all those complaining.......remove those collectors from todays hobby and all that would remain would be smug, sophisticates.

Thanks for the kind words...And I will concede your points about this being mainly a post war card issue. I also will concede that at the time of the scale being made, it (almost assuredly) had to do with making more money. Why else would they do it? I get it guys. Believe me, my friends over there and myself wish that scale didn't exist. But it does and will continue as it's a profitable business model for them. No where in any of my comments will you see that I said it is good for the hobby. I have said, and remain saying, it is good for them in the way of pure business. So, if I were the one having to pay my bills over there, I would be hesitant to change what is working (in the way of profit). I hope my realistic business approach is taken the way it is meant to be. If I ran the company I would be hesitant to change anything making me good profits. Has anyone seen how "print" magazines are doing nowadays? That was Beckett's bread and butter for decades. With that being the case, my guess is they are just happy to make money. (again, a business-centric view)

If I had a brand like Beckett, I would not want BCCG floating around to tarnish it. BCCG must get far more submissions than I realize or BCCG really does nothing to tarnish the brand. Not sure, but has always puzzled me a bit.

David,
Whether you start the thread or post in one started by someone else to me is an irrelevant distinction. The point is that you shared a POV just like the poster that started this thread. NO ONE is forcing their POV down anyone's throat. Just like if you don't like a company's product - don't use it, if you don't like a thread or the direction or the content - don't read it, or comment in it or let it make you irate.

BCCG put themselves out there when they came up with a scale that was radically different from the norm. To think that it wouldn't or shouldn't generate discussion is implausible (to me).

Jeff

When the OP and others have stated that BCCG should change their grading scale, then YES, that is forcing his / their POV down the throats of others - their customers who like and use their service and have no problem with their grading scale.

If the OP and others were actually a BCCG customer, then I would understand their argument. I might not agree with it, but as a customer he would have the right vocalize his opinion about their service. However, as I said earlier in this thread, I would be willing to bet that he has never even used their service.

Let's use my Olive Garden example again. I had a bad experience there many years ago and made a decision not to go back, but I don’t tell others that they shouldn’t eat there. That’s their choice and if they like the restaurant, it is of no concern of mine. I have never eaten a White Castle hamburger. That fast food chain does not exist in my part of the country. So if I say, “White Castle sucks!” then what is the basis of my argument? How can I intelligently speak about a product that I’ve never tried? In other words, I would be talking out my a$$ - just as the OP is doing here by never having used BCCGs service.

Jeff, all of this is obviously going way over your head, so I'll just concede the argument. I’m done posting here. Have the last word.

I have been trying and trying to stay out of a tit-for-tat with vintagetoppsguy because his arguments are so patently absurd and analogies so bereft of logic that it's pointless to even respond. However, since he continues to hurl accusations my way I'll respond to his last post.

I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. If you disagree with my viewpoint, that's great. It's a free country and debate and discussion about various topics are what make Net54 a great, vibrant place for all collectors. I challenge you to find a single thread in any forum where no opinion has been expressed. That's what this is all about, dude. You have your view and I have mine and we are both entitled to express it here. The problem with so many of these threads is that people cannot agree to disagree. I can agree to disagree with vintagetoppsguy and not resort to accusations, silly analogies and juvenile postings of tampon products to make my point.

For the record, no I have never submitted a card to BCCG or purchased one, but who cares? I have seen plenty of BCCG-graded cards, held them up close to my face and I know their grading scale sucks. I have seen a BCCG 8 with a crease through Sandy Koufax's face. That sucks. I have plenty of education in this hobby and that is enough.

Do I have to smoke a cigarette to know it's bad for me? Do I have to be a victim of scammer Bernie Madoff to advise others not to put their investments with him? Do I have to be a customer of the Yugo automobile to know that the car they made was a piece of crap? Since you love your Olive Garden analogy, if I'm not a paying customer, do I have the right to tell others not to eat there if I hear on the news that they just served a rat with the veal parmigiana? (which to my knowledge has never happened - just an example).

That's it - my last post too.
Best regards,
Rob

Agree with Rob...Especially about David's analogies being completely bereft of logic. At their core, they may make some sense, but they leave out key factors for comparison...Stating that White Castle suck without ever having it, is completely different from despising BCCG without having ever submitted a card.. Mostly because the effects of White Castle on the fine dining community cannot be seen firsthand without tasting. However, the effects of BCCG on the hobby can be seen without ever submitting a card to them.. Personally, I do have a handful of modern cards in BCCG 10 holders, but only because they were cheaper than similarly conditioned ungraded copies.. YES! Cheaper than ungraded copies. And then you see the occasional card being run up either because some seller lists it as Beckett graded 10 or BGS 10, or simply because the buyer doesn't know any better...Yes, as I've stated before, the fault ultimately lies with the uninformed buyer, BUT Beckett at the same time can put a stop to this crap....We all know that a few instances like this is all it takes for a beginning or unkowledgable collector to lose interest in the hobby after being burned. And that is not good at all.. YES! I said it. BCCG is contributing to people leaving the hobby. Perhaps even more than the SWG's, MINT's, GEM's, PGI's, and PRO's of the world, because they have a name that should be trusted in Beckett attached to it..

If they changed the grading scale now in the middle of it all, there would be even more confusion with their grades. Is it a 6 from before they changed the scale or afterwards? How can I tell the difference?

Same BCCG labels, same BCCG number grades, but then the descriptions would be different. it would not help anyone and it would probably ruin their business going forward. You would still have to read the description of the grade below the number, but now you would have two items with the same company (BCCG), same number grade, but with drastically different conditions.

It would have been nice to have a similar grading scale from the get-go, but it would be worse to change it after thousands and thousands of cards have been graded on the original "bad" scale.

The simple point is "bad scale" is still "bad scale".. Change it or get rid of it...Maybe not the service, but the number system all-together. What's wrong with a slab simply having a grade rather than a number? The number was unnecessary from the start, and honestly only in place so people could see that "10". SGC went from only listing their number scale to also including a PSA equivalent scale on their slabs to help deal with the confusion, so why couldn't BCCG simply get rid of their numbers to clean up the confusion that they caused? Sure the old slabs would still cause some confusion to some people, but wouldn't it be good to at least stop adding to that number of potentially confusing slabbed cards?

I think its a huge negative to Beckett and I will not submit nor recommend them because of it. Its a money grab and preys on those with less knowledge of card grading.

I always thought something was off about those slabs.I didnt understand the difference really until this thread.I assumed they were the older,first produced slabs of Beckett.

Jeff, all of this is obviously going way over your head, so I'll just concede the argument. I’m done posting here. Have the last word.

Yes David you are right, your arguments and analogies are way over my head and many others obviously. Nobody is making anyone either not submit a card for BCCG grading or not buy one, they are simply stating that in their opinion the scale is confusing and opens the door for deceiptful selling. Interestingly enough their arguments and POVs don't seem to go over my head. I am sorry that you feel put upon or that you are having something forced down your throat. It's just a message board and these are all opinions.

Maybe I'll go back to the prewar side whether the conversations are dummied down where I can understand them. ;)

This thread illustrates why there will never be world peace

World Peace
 

I disagree completely Doug. We absolutely must continue to fight for world peace