The Oaks Show and SGC Grading
 

Hello everyone, I don't post much any more due to a few mental midgets that thought I was ousting auctions which was a joke. Jerks you know who you are.

Anywho, I just setup at the Oaks show in Philly and did very well. I did well thankfully to about 5 regular customers that came there to see me and that was it.

The show was horribly attended, period. That show is deader than Hunt's if that is possible, back to Chantilly for this vintage dealer.

I had an unbelievable great time with Wonka, Jim Rivera, Leon, and another local friend of mine. Well worth the trip.

SGA-- WHAT A F______G JOKE! I made a large submission about 8 months ago that took about 6 months to get back. I don't care about the time but GOD DAMN IT!!! I had to bust 50% of the cards out of the holders! They were embarrassingly under graded!!! PERIOD! I have some absolute KILLER Old Judges that will soon be on ebay that were under graded by people who have no clue about the issue. Very sad.

They owed me a $300 credit from a mishap and you know what, they were EXCELLENT in making that right!!! So I thought I would bend a little and throw them some of it back.

I submitted 8 cards and called it even and they were very happy with that.

Out of the 8 cards I received (6) SIX AUTHENTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are u fkg kidding me?????????????????????????????????????????????

My 1934 Goudey Gehrig that dad and I collected in the late 1970s with rounded corners and a crease, I was expecting a 2, praying for a 3.

I get an A????????????????????????

Are you FKG kidding me???????????????????????????????????????????

I am so done with SGC that I thought I would post this.

I want to thank Dave for being good with the credit and customer service

But I am absolutely sick about my grades.

A T205 that was from a family where the buyer of the cigarettes took the cards out of the packs and put them in a cigar box. I get a 7.5 from PSA on a Cy Young from there and SGC gives me a 4 on the Mattern!!!!!! They circle a spot on the edge that has a slight missing of the gold but it is not scraped but just wasn't printed. No creases, sharp corners and a gem!!!


This grading stuff is a complete JOKE!!!!


I hope SGC calls me again one day asking for a large submission. I am going to tell them that I can't affor the cut marks on my hands popping pathetically under graded cards out of their holders.


This hobby has changed, changed for the worse by far.

You people into the grading BS, God bless you!

I feel very sorry for you.

Sincerely,

Dan Mckee

dont stop
 

Dan,
great post.... Dont let ,mental midgits keep you from posting... very turthful and entertaining !
RalG

Maybe it's time for you
 

to give PSA another chance :D

Thanks Rich! PSA barred me after I sued them for losing my Magies error and won!!!

Grading companies are wonderful!

Yikes- you have the same thread going twice. I posted a not so funny joke on the other one>:(

What do you mean PSA lost your Magie?? How long was that legal battle?? Did you get what it was insured for?? What a disaster? Do you believe something crooked happened with the situation??:(

Maybe you just got a bad grader. Do you know who the grader was? Was his name Vanilla Geek?

Kenny, u r my new favorite comedian! That was funny! Thanks for hanging out last night and thanks for having a great time!


To the gent that asked about my Magie, there is a full thread on the old board to read about it, I won in court, and Joe "Slime" Orlando screamed and hung up on me when I asked him to pay my legal fees like was stated on the back of their submissions.

Dan,

Can you post some images of the cards?

+1 Show us some of those cards Dan!!

This isnt directed at you as much as grading in general but I love how we all run to pay another human being to grade our cards then are mad when it doesnt get what we think it should.

Yeah and this is a totally serious question....What does it take to be a card grader at PSA, SGC? What kind of qualifications or experience does a card grader require? Training?? Serious question

First off, I don't "run" to anyone to get my cards graded. 99.9% of my keeper collection, that will trash yours I am sure, is all RAW!.

I rarely grade but will grade so I can sell to idiots that pay more for cards graded by idiots that have no clue.

I have been doing this 40+ years, I "run" to no one for anything!

And I have forgotten more than any of the idiot grading companies will ever know.

I will try to scan a few for you guys, I have to unpack from the show

Dan

PS I know that wasn't directed at me but I wanted to use it as a stress release! thanks

Damm Dan!!! You are pretty pissed here. I am sure rightfully so but really whats the big deal just ask for your money back, show them that you took the cards out of there holders and you are not happy. Not to sound so point blank by any means but F them and get your money back. You know enough good collectors that trust your grading skills to sell to. Send me a list of what you got and I will see if I can help. Say hi to your Dad for me, I hope you are doing well other than this silly card stuff?

Trevor Hocking

Ask for my money back? I paid them $1800+ and had to pop 50% of the cards. I can't ask them for the money back, I paid for a service and they provided it. It was just a PISS POOR service! The OJ's are gem! maybe a touch of silver fish paper eating on back, a 1.5???? WHAT A JOKE! Backs shouldn't even matter on old judges, image quality should be important. I have 5's that you can't see the image hardly. This grading is a complete joke and a cancer to the true hobby!

I sent in 300+ cards and busted half of them out, EMBARRASSING!

Yea, I am way pissed Trevor, but cured from ever sending in another large submission. Probably a blessing in disguise.

yep!!

Yea Dan. Hanging out and getting stupid with hobby friends is the best part of card shows, which is why the hobby will be so diminished if/when they disappear.

As to OJ grading, I've whined about this often. You could submit some smokey unidentifiable image with sharp corners and a clean back and it gets a 5 or 6, whereas a crystal clear sharp photo image with scrapbook damage on the back gets a 1. Makes no sense. Frankly, I think that most OJ collector's couldn't give a rat's (!) about the numerical grade.

I completely agree Ken! To a true collector, the numerical grade is but a joke!

I've never believed in grading. When I was a kid I just wanted a card and VG or MNT didn't mean a damn thing. Condition is condition and I don't need a slab to tell me what I have and I won't pay extra because it's slabbed

Pics attached
 

I can live with the yellow Gehrig and the recently acquired Washington Times but the T205 BLAZER was from the family that removed it from a pack and the rounded corner Gehrig has been in my set since 1975. A complete embarrassing joke!

I stopped reading there. Congrats...for being a douche

CubsfanCurt! WOW! Where have you been?? You must have bee around for awhile. That is how collecting used to be when it was fun!!! Good for you, I think you and I are the only 2 left!

Why thank you Timberdouche, while you stopped reading, do yourself a favor and stop writing, u r an idiot.

Telling me I run to get something graded and then complain, well I guess that makes me a douche, sorry, I don't run to anyone for anything.

I "run" to no one for anything

After catching up with Dan at the National I can vouch for the fact that his running days are long behind him. :-) Don't let the bastards get you down--those cards look good to me. Any of those Old Judges for sale? Best to your dad!

Dan- nobody has complained more on this board about how poorly OJ's are graded than me, but we all know that going in. If you have one with a gem front but some paper loss on the back, you will get hammered. You had to know that when you submitted. I know, it stinks, but it's never going to change. Graders obsess over technical flaws, often missing the big picture. The fact that a card may otherwise be a gem doesn't seem to sway them. But we know it, so you either have to work within the system or keep them raw.

And on the other thread, you complained about the poor crowds at the show. That isn't hard to figure out either. When nearly ever dealer puts his material out at double retail, consumers will stop wasting their time traveling to these shows. A show is a good place to catch up with old friends, but a terrible place to get a fair deal. Collectors will continue to avoid them. Shows are not part of the hobby's future, but a piece of its past.

OJ Grading
 

+1

grading and the show
 

I just got back from the Oaks show late last night. A few observations I had were.....the show was dead as far as end-user attendance. That being said I had a great time with the usual crowd of friends. Dan, Jim R, John M., Ted Z were all there quite some time and/or set up. John was my chauffeur again and I can't thank him enough. Try flying into a city and needing a ride everywhere and not know where your going....and that was me. But with John's kindness I didn't have a worry in the world. And how can I forget Fred Mckie's kindness in picking me up at the airport on the way in. Again, I am very thankful to him for that. We had a great ride to the show and I got to hear some great stories about the old hobby days, which I absolutely love hearing about. Back to the show though......I am with Dan on the number of folks attending. I am not sure 25 people went past our booth the whole time. I was stuck in a back corner away from everyone, it seemed, until Dan and John rescued me and pulled my table over to theirs. At least then I was by friends and it made the show very enjoyable. I had a good personal show but it was the worst ROI for B and L Auctions investment since my personal debacle in the restaurant business. I absolutely can NOT justify doing that again as a business decision where my company is concerned. Actually, I will have to think very hard about doing any show again with that promoter, again given where I was put with my table. It was that bad. I might as well have been in the parking lot, which actually would have been far better (though they might have loitering laws against it.) The promoter is a very nice person and I like him but this was business and to say my initial location sucked would be an understatement. I was next to the front door ok, but there were drapes leading folks quite a ways away and leading them to all of the other auction houses. I was like.....Thanks a lot!!

I did manage to do quite a few sales and trades to a handful of people I knew so on a personal basis the show was pretty good. I can't deny that. I don't think those deals could have been made over the internet either. There just isn't the personal back and forth you have when you are in person. I am quite sure of that, actually. Val and I did some trades and deals and I know he and I were both very happy.

As for grading......I think you have to play it the way it is. I am not sure getting any card with a photo on it graded, is a good idea, as long as they don't take the real aesthetics into account. A gem mint photo, a spec of writing on the back, and you get a 10 or 20. If you have the outline of a player, sort of ghost front, but really sharp corners, then that would be a prime candidate for grading :). SGC did some grading for me and they were spot on with their grades. I didn't give them any photographic type cards though :).

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...e/scan0001.jpg

Dan's T205's from the find in MD, Mattern was in a 5 poped at the show became a 4...LOL.

Leon - I too was quite happy with the deal you made with Val. I should have moved over to your area instead of staying in my personal Siberia with all those empty tables. Glad you made it back home safe and sound.

Woops...I am so sorry Ken......yes, Ken went to dinner with us and was one of our bunch too. I had a great time chatting with you Ken. How could I forget? I guess I was so worked up about the poor spot my table was in that I just forgot. And yes, the trade with Val and subsequent deal with you was very good too. I appreciate it very much. My sincere apologies for leaving you out of my initial post. You are definitely one of the nicest guys in the hobby!!

So just to recap your stress release:

You are upset because you, who runs to noone for 40+ years, ran to SGC to get your RAW cards graded. But the idiot graders (that have no clue how to grade) graded them objectively - which you forgot more than they know that due to paperloss they grade low - instead of grading them subjectively which could've made them 10s. And now the idiots who buy graded cards won't give you the profit you deserve.

and timber is a douche cuz your 99.9% raw keeper collection will trash his.

okay, got it!

Ahh, too bad I missed the show. I was planning on going during the weekend, but didn't feel like dealing with the traffic from NY-PA.

Glad you guys had fun!

In a perfect world wouldn't it be great if only two designations were placed onto graded holders. "Authentic" representing a genuine unaltered card and "'Altered" representing a card that's been tampered with in some way such as trimming, re-coloring, etc. This notion has been mentioned before my many. One could place their own value on any given card based off of eye appeal alone not off of what some inconsistent third party grader felt they wanted to place on their flip on that given day which would more than likely be a different # the following day if re sent in. Simply crazy if you really think about what it's become. Although this will never happen since the system is so far gone a man can dream right??

Rob - Not to speak for Dan, but in all fairness that's not what he was saying IMO. After all, Mr. Timber was the first to hurl the "d" word. Just sayin'.

well
 

edited to keep it G rated.....

You're right Ken. But mr timber made a general non-aggressive statement about people getting stuff graded, and Dan went after him pretty rough with the "my collection will trash yours" comment. Perhaps I read it wrong. Dan is probably a very nice guy. He must be if Ken and Leon both get along with him haha ;). And this is his thread is his, but I just thought the way he was taking it out on mr timber was over the top. We are all collectors of cards, so no need to bash other people's collections with mine-is-bigger-than-yours comparisons. If anyone needs to get bashed for a poor collection its me!!! :D

Seriously Dan, sorry for interrupting, continue venting!

As a side note on grading ... I like that cards are graded objectively and not how they appear. Some people don't want paperloss (i happen to be fine w/it) at all with cards in their collection. If the paperloss is tiny but the card was given an "8" due to beautiful eye appeal, the buyer of the card may be unhappy since more often than not the seller wouldn't disclose the paperloss. Thats why I liked the idea of Becketts old grading system with 4 subgrades that made up the total grade. It gave you a better idea of what was wrong with the card. I'm sure SGC/PSA can make some money when they "revolutionize" the industry with subgrades and the collectors of plastic can resubmit their holders for new ones!

Dan,

All your cards suck and are overgraded.

Sincerely,
Jeff

We can use the word douche? This changes everything.

lol

only if you use it as a verb :)

I too have been very frustrated with SGC's grading for the past year. I know they've had some substantial turnover, but I just can't wait for them to turn it around anymore. I want my cards to be accurately graded, not harshly graded. Harsh grading isn't good grading.

I haven't sent cards in for grading in years, but I only used SGC. The only reason I saw to get a card slabbed was if authenticity was questionable, or if I wasn't sure about trimming. SGC handled those issues fine.

But I found the grades I received to be almost nonsensical - they were clearly not in line with what the larger submitters were receiving, and so I cracked most and sold as raw, describing details accurately and providing good scans when selling. Not saying I won't send more to them, but I know what to expect. Sorry to see that Dan's experience indicates that little has changed.

Dan - quit pissing people off and submit in larger volumes. ;)

You haven't heard? According to one poster in an older thread, there are some people who are put specifically on this earth to grade baseball cards.

Oh FML that was funny.

The best grader on earth is the sole employee at GAI. I rest my case....

Oh thats who that is
 

Did I miss something..I thought when a member got a little mouth snippy..Someone stepped in and said....By the way Timbers real name is ?????????

maybe only certain guys thats done to ??

Ralph G

Good point Hangman!!!! I have looked in this entire thread, and only 3 people (myself included), have their full name in the thread for the world to see. I don't mind it obviously, but it does seem a little odd....

I am tired :)
 

I just didn't think about the names issue as I know all those who are bickering and posting. I should remind everyone of this part of the public, written rules concerning privacy, which haven't changed in quite some time.


"However, you may remain private on the board; otherwise, as long as your post is not argumentative, controversial, confrontational, accusatorial etc.…For example you can discuss attributes of cards, sets or memorabilia and stay private. You can not say someone is an imbecile, hard to deal with, gave poor service etc…and remain private on the board. In addition to that if your opinion is that you dislike someone, hate them, can’t stand or don’t like anything about them, and you want to tell the world about it on Net54baseball, then your full name will need to be in your post."




.

here is the Cy Young from the MD find for comparison- SGC was very hard on some tobacco cards that were pack fresh and that were packed away for many many years

Attachment 49636

Dan...I had the exact same thing happen to me with some Mutoscopes I had that came from vending. These things looked pratically brand new!! I got them back and ended up getting grades like '4's and '5's. A complete joke! I wound up cracking every single one out and selling them raw. If I had kept them in their holders, I would have gotten torched, as they wouldn't have brought anything, and the buyers would have gotten blazers for peanuts. Something has changed over there - and it hasn't been for the better.

Holy BeJesus! I think I am bleeding. Check the corner of my mouth. A feeding frenzy way cool! I am glad I was able to bring so many people closer together at my expense. See, and you didn't think I had an objective. Any publicity is good publicity?

In closing, I would like to say that several years ago, I found an original T206 find down in the Fells Point area of Baltimore. Loaded with South League players and most of the cards were in great shape!

I sent 600+ cards to SGC and Scott graded most I believe. I didn't have a complaint about a single card. Scott even said to me "WOW" all of those cards and not a complaint. I felt they were graded perfectly and I still have about a dozen of them. 5s 6s and 7s I believe.

Anyway, I actually felt a couple were over graded by 1 grade. The green Cobb was holdered a 5 and I thought it was a 4.

So maybe standards have changed, grades are much tougher, who knows.

I am glad most of you enjoyed a healthy chat.

Jay Miller! Thanks for asking about pops. We had a 90th birthday party for him 2 weeks ago though he actually hits 90 on the 22nd of this month. He was very happy to hear that you asked about him.

Hopefully I will start posting the Old Judges next week.

Dan

perhaps there's a relationship

Dan-90 years old-God bless him. Send me an email at jay.l.miller@jpmorgan.com ,if you could, with his address as I'd love to send him a card.

Danny I feel your pain brother a thousand plus cards later and 5k+ lighter in the pocket and I too am left scratching my head on some of the grades.

Look I get it I’m sure under any loop little tiny wrinkles can be seen but….have we really come to this that we are now picking cards based upon microscopic flaws unseen to the naked eye? I know I’m not…I challenge you to find better examples of these cards below. Flip or not these are some of the most pack fresh cards you will see in regard to Obaks especially the 1909’s.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn.../huge/1909.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...e/1909%202.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn.../huge/1910.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn.../huge/1911.jpg

Now don’t get me wrong I got lots of 7’s and 6’s and 5’s but I have to chuckle when I have 3’s & 4’s that are nicer than the 5’s and the 6’s that were returned.

I agree harsh grading isn’t good grading. I think holdings cards 100+ years old to standards of modern multi produced cards is and has always been a bit silly.

This whole wacky system has only amplified the trimmed card phenomenon. Look I know trimming has been going on awhile to guys like Copeland back in the day. But once grading came in and opened up the world to a bigger buying pool for crazy graded cards then it was razors away.

Don’t believe me for those of you who are newer to the hobby how often do you see oversized cards like below now?

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...%20borders.jpg

Not often but they were very common when I collected now they are the black rhino of the card world.

When I think of all the amazing specimens that have been hacked, soaked and shucked over the years in the pursuit of a flip it makes me kind of sad.

Cheers,

John

Wow John!
Were those Obaks sent in all at the same time? If they were, then I assume they were all being graded by the same person. How can there be that much difference (SGC70 to SGC50) with some of those? Some of those 50s look just as good as the 70s, if not better.

I collect only SGC graded T206s, as opposed to PSA, because I like the way they look in the holder. I have only sent in raw cards once or twice to SGC and have been very disappointed with the grades. Several were "A" for trimming when I was about as sure as I could be on one of the cards that it was never trimmed. Oh well.

As someone else said recently, I wish the grading standards were just "U" for Unaltered and "A" for Altered......or something like that and then let the buyer decide how much they like the card.

The only reason I buy graded cards now is that I buy about 99% of my cards online (eBay, BST, auction houses, etc.) and the first several that I bought online raw, were Trimmed. Therefore, I needed a TPG to tell me it was unaltered before I was going to send money to someone on the other side of the country.

"Wow John! Were those Obaks sent in all at the same time? If they were, then I assume they were all being graded by the same person. How can there be that much difference (SGC70 to SGC50) with some of those? Some of those 50s look just as good as the 70s, if not better"

Phil, I'm still tring to figure this out myself.....I wish I knew and yes I dropped off over 1000+ cards all at the same time.

Fun, fun, fun... :)

I've had the same experience with SGC. In past discussions I think the board consensus was that large submitters and dealers were simply treated better. Same for PSA - probably even moreso, plus some were able to get trimmed cards put in holders. No telling how many of those are circulating now - another good reason never to crack a NM PSA card. But checking the NM PSA cards in the current Legendary auction, you don't have to worry about that - many of them even have slightly rounded corners (Cobb bat off, for instance)

I was hoping the situation had changed, but it's still a wreck dealing with slabbed cards.

Those Obaks are beautiful! Under sufficiently high magnification, most any card looks like crap.

They must have used an electron microscope! John, those Obaks are beautiful.

Yeah!!
 

All TPG Companys are a CANCER ON THE HOBBY!

Raw Rules Graded Drools!

Hey! Jim Orlando! Give this man his 900 Bucks back!!

Dave.

I've been hanging around here for three years now and this is the first thread that I've read where a collector tells another collector that my collection "will trash yours". I don't care who you're friends with or how long you've been in the hobby...this is really lame.

Robert Dixon

Its sad to hear that so many people hate the way the hobby has gone with TPG co. I would love to have nice "raw" cards but with 99% of cards being sold online now how, where, and who can you trust now days for quality "raw" cards??? Short of cracking every card out I don't see myself spending big $$$ on high grade/big name cards...:(
And then I don't want to crack them in case I want to sell or trade, then the next person is thinking the same thing, is this card trimmed, alt. etc

+1
Couldnt agree more.

It's a real conundrum these days. You feel you have to buy high-grade in slabs, yet you can't crack them out for the reason you just stated. And should they trust the card? They might send it back to the slabber and find out you bought it slabbed and trimmed! :eek:

Speaking of which, let's say you buy a PSA-slabbed card as NM, crack it and send it to SGC, and they tell you it was trimmed. Are you just simply screwed?

Simply- yes.

Not necessarily. Send it back to PSA and get it graded again.

ALL High grade tobacco and candy cards scare me unless I know exactly where they come from. The money is just too high to assume that the doctoring isn't rampant. TPG slab doesn't ease my mind at all; so to me it doesn't help or hurt and I wouldn't mind it all if it was gone. In fact, if it adds value to put a 7 or 8 on the card then it will only increase the desire to doctor and slab, thereby increasing fraud in the hobby. If the companies were truly able to tell which were doctored and which weren't and cared to be consistent, then there might be an argument but since they get it wrong so often...

That's why I'm happy to collect in mid-grade VG-VGEX-EX.

beware of challenging the establishment, as you may be labeled the "d" word!

And I believe the Brucii often teased the smaller fish in the pond before challenging them to fisticuffs. Surely u were around for that!

I've been following this thread...
 

I only collect T206s and have submitted a few hundred to SGC in the past 18 months. I am pretty good about being able to determine what grade a card is going to get. I'd say 70-80% accurate to the grade given, and 98 percentish on being within one grade. That said, I typically submit cards that will yield a grade of 30-60.

Anyway, since I've been following this thread I decided to go back and look at SGCs grading scale (http://sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm). Based on the guidelines for each grade as listed on the page, I tend to agree that they are grading very harshly. Specifically, I'll point out:

• It is possible for a card with pinholes AND writing to get a 30. When was the last time you saw a 30 with EITHER of those characteristics?
• It is possible for a card with a light hairline crease or a light TEAR to get a 50. I have NUMEROUS crease-free 40s in my collection.
• It is possible for a card with ONE very light surface crease (one side only) to get a 60.

While I've been able to accurately predict my grades, I'm now very confused as to whether or not the graders are actually using these guidelines when evaluating cards. I know in my last submission that I had two cards knocked down from 40 to 30 between the initial grading and shipment. One was this Delehanty that I recently sold. No pinhole, no writing... heck, no creases, but it's a 30. Sure, rounded corners, a little scratching on the front and perhaps some back staining. I admit it's not a 60... but is it really a 30 according to SGCs own scale?
http://gallery.me.com/kimsummers/100...13208784280001

Not possible. This Landry was almost mint, but had a very, ver slight surface wrinkle on the back - I could not even see it. I took the card to a PSA dealer and he noticed it. So I sent it to SGC on my own...and they noticed it. Automatic 50. You will never see a prettier '55 Bowman - I bought this and several others raw, and all were pack-fresh. The wrinkle does not show up in the scan - I had to describe it when selling the card...$55 :(

http://www.belltownvintage.com/Cards-Misc/57Landry1.JPG
http://www.belltownvintage.com/Cards-Misc/57Landry2.JPG

Wow Great looking card for that grade!

I'm with Jay on this one...I collect lower-mid grade...and am super happy...I am very suspicious of most high grade cards that are over 100 years old.

If one were to create a short film documenting the life of a T206 card from the time it was pulled from a pack of cigs back in 1909...how boring would the film be if the instant the card was pulled it weas placed in between the pages of book where it stayed for 100 years...B-O-R-I-N-G!!!! I like my cards with a story!!!!

On a different note...I think it's a lot easier to be consistent when it comes to grading T206's as there are so many of them out there to compare to. Granted there are size differences...but not nearly as high a % as some other types of cards...which exist in much smaller #'s and may be printed on different types of stock more prone to deterioration.

It drives me crazy to open the SCD and look for prices of vintage cards only to find NRMT, EX, VG as options..when most cards available are in lesser grades...and practically none exist in these higher grades.

How about when you crack out an SGC graded card and PSA says it is trimmed?????

This is partially why I collect low-grade cards. I've never had a card that would grade a 2 or higher, so I don't have to worry about what the grade gets

What I look for in a card is eye appeal, which I believe gets overlooked at times by judging a card on grade alone. It seems and is fine with me that the card grading companies focus on the technical aspects of grading a card. I would not mind seeing a flip on the back of the card kind of like BVG in breaking down the surface,corner,centering,edges but with more descriptions maybe they could use a code system if a card is getting knocked a grade or two because of staining, creasing, paperloss etc.

Absolutely agree. I could care less how another person believes my card grades. I just recently started on the T206 set and initially didn't know how to go about it....raw? graded? or both? I've been more of the memorabilia collector so I've recently watched alot of graded cards sell on ebay to get an idea of what an SGC 10 brings compared to SGC 30 or 40. As it turns out I've seen several 10s and 20s look like 30s-50s. On a limited budget that's good for me as a buyer because I'm going on the visual aspects of the card and not the numbers!:) Now if I was the submitter and subsequent seller of such cards it would be a different story.

+1

Also, sorry to hear about your 1934 Gehrig. SGC is unsually tough on that one card in particular....not really sure why. Here is one that I won from Lew Lipsett auction last year. It looked good when I got it. Lew said he got it from an old school collector who had it in his collection for years....


http://host.jwcinc.net/712533/brent/...1/134_13_1.jpg

I ended up consigning it with PWCC. Brent said it looked to be about 1/32 short from left to right. Not trimmed. Just came from Goudey that way.