The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"
 

Presented without comment


Cinci Duo Finally Gets Wagner Card Slabbed

It's been beaten up. Dragged through the mud. Cursed. Reviled. Verbally spanked.

And that's just speaking metaphorically.



The Honus Wagner baseball card Ray Edwards and John Cobb own is still in the same shape it was in when they say it was uncovered at an estate sale years ago, but the community of mainstream authenticators and collectors are convinced it's just another in a long line of fakes.



Nothing has deterred the duo from trying to get someone to say it dates from the same early 20th time period as the real Wagners that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Finally, they found a company to do just that.



ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.



A story in the New York Daily News says ACA agreed to let the two owners be present during the evaluation. Cobb and Edwards claim they didn't want it to be encapsulated alone and, thus, steered clear of the hobby's mainstream authenticators.


Here is the story from the New York Daily News


T206 Honus Wagner card finally gets a stamp of approval, but controversy lingers


The two Cincinnati men who have spent many frustrating years trying to prove their T206 Honus Wagner is legitimate have finally gotten their baseball card authenticated.

But the collectors and dealers who have ripped Ray Edwards and John Cobb as hucksters peddling a counterfeit card will probably not apologize anytime soon.

Edwards and Cobb submitted their card to ACA Grading, a little-known authentication service based in Quebec, which labeled the card "authentic."



"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."



Edwards and Cobb have refused to submit their card to any of the three biggest grading services -- Professional Sports Authentication, Beckett and SportsCard Guaranty -- because those companies would not allow them to be present when their cards are evaluated.



The companies say that policy is necessary because they don't want collectors trying to influence the grades their cards receive. Cobb and Edwards say the policy sounds reasonable for cards worth a few dollars, but the companies should make exceptions for a card potentially worth millions of dollars.



Brouillard said he graded the card "authentic," rather than giving it a numeral grade, because he permitted Edwards to be present when he examined the card, and because fibers have been taken from the collectible.



Brouillard based his grade in part on research done by paper expert Walter Rantanen, who examined the card in 2003 at the request of Edwards and Cobb and concluded the paper stock was consistent "with being from 1910." Brouillard also relied in part on printing expert Arnie Schwed, who also examined the card for Edwards and Cobb and said it was definitely not a counterfeit.



Collectors say the card appears to be a fake because it looks dull and discolored. There is no black border around the picture of Wagner, and Wagner's name at the bottom looks different than it does on other T206 cards. Memorabilia industry executives, most notably PSA's Joe Orlando and Bill Mastro, whose now-defunct Mastro Auctions is at the center of an FBI fraud investigation, have called the card a fake.



Brouillard says the card may have been a print test for production, or a first printing that was scrapped.



Brouillard's opinion isn't likely to satisfy the critics of Edwards and Cobb. Without a stamp of approval from one of the mainstream grading services, Edwards and Cobb probably won't sell their card.



But it's not like the mainstream grading services and authenticators are unimpeachable. The T206 Wagner once owned by NHL superstar Wayne Gretzky, purchased in 2007 for $2.7 million by Arizona Diamondbacks managing general partner Ken Kendrick, was given an "8" by PSA even though one of the graders says he knew the card was trimmed when he examined it in 1991. The card grader, Bill Hughes, acknowledged that the Wagner was trimmed during an interview for "The Card," a 2007 book written by two Daily News reporters.

Wtf
 

Big difference between a trimmed authentic card and that counterfeit piece of crap that Cobb/Edwards have.

fake
 

Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

Glad we finally know its real.

It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

oh boy!
 

........here we go!

Ridiculous...that card is a POS! The reason Psa/sgc wont see is is because those idiots won't let it be graded unless they were present!

not saying it is real, but if I owned a t206 wagner NO ONE would get near it without me in the room!

I wish they would quit calling it the Cincinnati Wagner. If I ever win the lottery and can afford a legit one I'd never be able to sell it based on the possible confusion! :D

Always Clueless Authentic Grading of Quebec! I think they were grading in one of the bathrooms at the National. I wonder what the next move will be with this garbage slab? I imagine Coaches Corner would be the logical location for this trash.

Best,

Andy

how can orlando say the card is a fake when his company slabbed a trimmed wagner an 8. talk about hypocrites! that's why i'm about 90% out of the hobby. then there's the doyle polar bear. ho hum:confused:

Jeff beat me to it...the first thing I thought was better not criticize these two or you'll get accused of being a racist.

And there is no controversy whatsoever surrounding this card. It was fake, it's still fake, and tomorrow it will continue to be fake.

has anyone here touched or seen the card IN PERSON?

Cinn Wagner
 

Does anyone have a scan of this card?

There's a dozen on eBay on any given week.

Indeed. Not only have the racists come out of the woodwork on this one, but a deluge of "anti-slabbites" and "honus-phobes" are out in full force as well.

If you know anything about T206
 

You do not need to see this card in person. It is a very common fake wagner front attached to a real T206 back. You do not have to see this card in person to know 100% it is fake. Oh by the way there are people including Brian Wentz that have seen this card in person and they are as convinced of its fakeness as i am. if you can not tell why this card is fake you need to be educated on t206 before you make any purchase of one.

Also I DONT GET HOW BECAUSE YOU SLABBED AN ALTERED CARD YOU CANT TELL A FAKE ONE? tHEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. a LOT MORE PEOPLE CAN TELL AUTHENTICITY THEN CAN TELL ALTERATIONS. Sorry for the caps lock i was not shouting just didn't notice it was on

That's simple. Remember, they were 'afraid' that if the card were out of their sight for even a second during grading/slabbing, that someone at PSA or SGC would quickly switch it with a fake. :eek:

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

This would be entertaining if not for the fact that at some point someone decent will get screwed over this.

I know we've been over this a million times, but any t206 collector (or litho collector in general) can tell a real from a fake in seconds. Loop the front, look at the dot pattern, job done. It literally takes seconds.

But these guys know it's a fake because they 'created' it. If it were real, they would have sent it to PSA and reaped their just rewards. Also said before, they have to get it 'legitimately' slabbed to protect themselves from lawsuits when they get their 'unjust' reward. They have to then find just the right stooge to buy this thing - someone who wants to believe it is real so badly that they will tout its authenticity as much as these two clowns have.

Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

It's pretty simple - the market will determine if its real or fake. Its been "authenticated", they're free to sell it (as they always have been), and we'll see what the top dollar brings. Honestly, I'd be happy to own it for...I dunno maybe $25.

I do not care what the "market": determines the CARD is 100% A FAKE FRONT

however
 

Yeah, but that back could be worth some big bucks!!

OK, I'm far from a T206 expert and not that anyone here believes for a second that it is real, but for crying out loud... that card's not even close! For starters, the font is wrong. The letters after the P in Pittsburgh are all the wrong size from a traditional T206. I can only imagine that a more detailed look with a loop could point out a whole litany of other reproduction characteristics... dot pattern, edge inspection, etc. I'd bet that thing would fluoresce under black light too. Even before all that, the presumably artificial aging looks suspicious. The only way I'd spend $25 on that thing is just as cocktail fodder...or to make the story just go away. Aren't their 15 minutes up yet?

I would love to read that thread if it still exists. If anyone is able to find it, please post the link. Thanks.

Leon: Maybe you can have them place it in the next B-L Auction. Of course you probably have to allow them to have a two-week sleep over at your place so they can be assured you don't insert a "fake" card while it is in your possession. It should be fun. :)

You can receive some valuable knowledge from two of the better known collectors in the industry.

My memory could be failing me, but I thought a board member posted that that card looked like a reprint stolen out of his office and that he coincidentally lived just a few miles from the current owners in Cincinnati.
JimB

If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:

I think they made a very bold assertion by calling the Edwards-Cobb specimen an unreleased version of the T206 Honus Wagner. This being the case, and since all grading companies need to stand behind such statements, I would like to know what exhaustive research the company made to reach this conclusion? What libraries did you folks visit, what primary and secondary sources did you use, what internet sites did you find, and did you study in detail the records of the ATC? I imagine to reach such a conclusion, no amount of time was spared in doing your research.

I ask you this because I am thinking of making the owners a very significant offer for their card. But in order to do so with the appropriate level of confidence, I really do need to see documentation. I realize we may be talking about a couple of hundred pages that will need to be photocopied, so please know that I will reimburse you for all your costs.

So if you are reading this, I thank you in advance for all your time and trouble. I realize you must all be exhausted from the weeks of research you put in to come with your conclusion, but I think we can all agree it was well worth it.

Look forward to receiving a packet of documents from your company. Thanks again.

Found this interesting, from the Hockey side of things

...notice of fake Bobby Orr cards...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/38176...Bobby+Orr+Card

and then

...current Ebay listing for a (graded) fake Bobby Orr card

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tchlink:top:en


Conclusion: Get a fake card into a slab is Priority #1

Honest question here. Clearly this card is not authentic and will never be valued anywhere near the value of a legit Wagner, But would this particular card hold any value based on it's background and story? Like I said, it's not a legit Wagner, but just for fun, wouldn't it be interesting to say that you own "The Infamous Cincinnati Wagner"? For $20-50, I'd probably bite just to say that.. I'm wondering what some of you other members would pay, just to be the one to put this mess to rest?

Barry, ACA Grading probably is run out of someone's mother's basement!

Well Jeff, I want to know where they come off encapsulating a card that they know is bad; how did they come to fabricate this silly story about it being a pre-release version of a real Wagner; and has anyone on this board actually seen a card graded by ACA?

I'm really tired of seeing people with no skills and no credentials whatsoever passing themselves off as experts. It's plagued the autograph side of the hobby, and now it's becoming part of vintage baseball cards too.

My guess is that the Cincinnati guys got someone to agree to grade it, in exchange for a percentage of the final selling price. It could be one of their friends or some unscrupulous person who approached them first. In any event, I'm sure it's not a legitimate grading company.

Why would this surprise anyone? We've seen grading company abominations now for many years. It isn't going to stop.

Flashy website
 

Check out their website. Autograph experts too!! Jeez!!

http://www.acagrading.com/en/index.htm

Here is a question for the lawyers here. Does the grading company have any responsibility for authenticating an obviously fake card? Can they get sued if someone bought the card on their assurance that it was authentic? I suppose it depends on the way the grading company presents what they are doing. I am curious what their liability is. My guess is not much, that they are just offering opinions and that their only real value is the perceived respect they garner in the hobby.
JimB

Jim- what I find interesting here is ACA did much more than merely render a verdict of genuine or not genuine. They took the bold step of calling it an unreleased proof. And that was the point of my sarcastic post #29: exactly what research went into this rather unique designation? There is nothing that any advanced collector on this board sees that would support their claim, so I would assume anyone making it would be prepared to defend such a determination. This of course doesn't answer your question about their liability, just my own thoughts on the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 929974) Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

http://tytempletonart.files.wordpres..._mackenzie.jpg

BOB: "Good day, eh! We graded this card and it's a beauty, eh."

DOUG: "We got paid in Elsinore beers!"

Scott- did you see the one where the Mackenzie brothers put a baby mouse in an empty beer bottle, let it grow to maturity, then filled the bottle with beer and recapped it, returned it to the company for a refund, and then got a whole case of beer back as part of the company's apology? Pretty funny.

How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Good lord.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0g-R7ZODY

Looks like a color copy of a real Wagner pasted on a real piedmont back.
JimB

"
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?""


LOL that one looks more convincing than the straight up fake cincy card. Both are fake. But damn that cincy one is nasty fake.

-

While I'm skeptical also, I'd still like to compare the lithogrpahic dot pattern under my 16x loupe, or better yet, a microscope with the proper power, to a known genuine card, or series of such cards. Simply stated, that should tell if the card is counterfeit or not. If it is not counterfeit, but there remain significant differences with regard to other characteristics of the card, then the card is something other than a regular T206, and the question becomes what it is. The grading service which has in fact encasulated it has assigned it a category, which may or may not be correct. Barry is quite correct--we need to know how they arrived at that conclusion, assuming the card passed the former test. One thing does concern me, however.

I've taken hundreds of depostions in my career as a lawyer, many of them involving scammers of one kind or another, and these two are simply not behaving in a way that is consistent with the behavior these types of persons do exhibit. Perhaps if I saw the card in person and could examine it, I would have a somewhat different opinion, but the animosity towards these two seems to have grown out of hand.

Best regards, regardless of our different sentiments here,

Larry

Larry, it's been examined by an auction house owner, forensic expert and now a grading company (with a combined 39yrs experience) from a sophisticated province in Canada.

Theyve jumped through hoops to protect the prospective buyer. What more can we expect from these good fellows?

Larry,

I think you'd be wasting your time. And I do think the actions of these two guys are consistent with professional scammers. If they were really sincere, they would take a sample of the FRONT of the card and test the age. Its been said many times that EVEN IF the verso dates to 1909, that means NOTHING in this case given the documented discrepancies with the front. It would be easy for a professional conservator to put a reprint front on a slivered-off Piedmont back.

Yeah, but he got to play the race card. fun, fun, fun.

Slabbed

http://i.imgur.com/HoOnN.png

-

Im happy about this
 

I have this same exact unreleased card and in much better condition so I can't wait to get it slabbed and sell it for about 5 times what they get for their ratty looking card. Can someone post the pics for me, size was too big and when I adjusted it to fit the picture was about the size of a dime? I included in the pictures a released 1909 penny so people can tell the difference between stuff that comes out in 1909 and stuff that doesn't. When I got this card for free after buying a t206 Beckley at a card show, I did not realize I was in the presence of the world's most generous man.

Send me a PM with your email address if you can work gypsy magic on my pictures so theyre able to post and I'll email them to you

Hi, Corey. You may well be right, but these two know very well by now that this is a fairly close-knit hobby, involving a lot of people with a ton of knowledge, and excellent lines of communication. In my three and a half decades of practice, I would find it very unusual that someone would continue to attempt to pull off a scam under such circumstances. I'm just saying that it appears that THEY actually believe in the integrity of their card, and I'm curious enough that I'd like to compare it's front to other T206's under adequate magnification. I would just prefer more actual information with regard to the card itself. Having taken a loupe to many, many shows for years prior to third party grading entering the picture as a major player, and having detected far too many trimmed cards as well as a number of counterfeits, I'm certainly not naive about what's out there. But I am curious.

Best always,

Larry

If they thought it was legitimate, they would give it to PSA or SGC for a two hour service, get it slabbed and make hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have a very hard time believing they think it is legit. I believe they are hoping to find somebody with more money than brains. So far they haven't found one.
JimB

scam?
 

There is no doubt that this is fake, but there is a small possibility that these people really believe they have a legit card. It happens all of the time with my customers. Someone comes in and wants to mail a laptop to Nigeria. My clerks know that they need to have the customer talk to me, so the customer comes in my office and I tell them about the craigslist scams and I assure them that they are being scammed, but they just won't believe me. So, we mail off the laptop and a couple of days later the customer comes in and wants to know if we can get the laptop back, which of course, we can't. We see the same scams with credit card and money order fraud and work at home scams. The customers WANTS to believe they are on to something, so they don't listen to advice. Maybe these guys are in the same category.

Rick

Yes, so scared, in fact, that ol' Honus is making the rounds this year at your local haunted house.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Im sorry
 

but anyone that needs magnification to judge that cards legitimacy needs a new hobby.

Gotta agree with Glyn. From the naked eye, the card not only appears fake, but is OBVIOUSLY fake. "Unreleased Version"? HA. I find it funny that the first of the "unreleased versions" to be discovered, just so happens to be Wagner. Even if it really is an "unreleased version"(cough), it's still worthless if they can't get anyone to believe them... This card is not and never will be an "unreleased version", a "t206 Wagner", or anything else that you can think of. Hell, it's not even a standard reprint, or just another scam(they've taken it way past that point).. It is "the Cobb/Edwards Wagner", and that's all this card will EVER be... And to top it off these two douchebags had the audacity to play the race card against the hobby, it's experts, and whoever else will listen in regards to this card. These two know it's fake(and probably have all along), and since they couldn't get anyone to side with them, they've been hoping to guilt someone into buying their BS. They can shove it up their @$$es...Which should be even more enjoyable now that it's been slabbed..

Sorry, if I come off a little angry, but I take this hobby seriously(well, about as seriously as it could be taken), and I've had about enough of hearing about these two clowns.

I suspect the next step is this card will be consigned to one of those marginal country auctions, one with a "no returns, all sales are final" policies. And you just know someone will buy it, figuring if it is real he will get it cheap and make a killing on it. And then you will never hear from these two guys again. That will be the end of their days in the public eye.

Sounds like the business model of Coaches Corner -- get a BS authentication and then sell the item for a small percentage of what it would be worth if it was authentic to an unsuspecting wet-behind-the-ears novice who thinks he made a killing.

a few pics
 

A few pics sent by board member John D....the original fake? :)

its a fake omg

I'm taking offers on this card btw, you can't have the 1909 penny though, that's actually worth something

John!!! I was just thinking about you today, as I posted that 't206 errors' article to my website - I was wondering why I gave you a by-line. :D

Thanks Scott, I seem to think I still know something about t206 errors but for some reason when I finished the set about 7 years ago I stopped collecting them so I've probably forgot a lot of what I used to know. Im hoping that one of the things I forgot was that my Wagner is one of the unreleased ones....fingers crossed

At this point, whether the card sells or not, the sellers are ultimately screwed.

If the card never sells, which is likely, they are met with an unrealized dream, plus much wasted time, money and effort -- all for nothing but a little time in the spotlight and plenty of embarassment.

If the card does sell, the new owner will most likely attempt to have it authenticated and will receive the obvious result. They'll then, in turn, sue the original sellers. This card has gotten enough publicity, as have the current owners, that they'll have no place to hide. The card will not hold up in a court of law and they'll be guilty of fraud.

So, either way, this does not end well for Mr. Cobb and Mr. Edwards.

I'm not saying we should sit idly by, and watch someone get scammed, but those are the two likely outcomes.

Right! That's why counterfeit Rose and Mattingly cards made such a splash in the hobby, as well as 1984 Fleer Update Goodens and Pucketts back in the day, and countless others. That's why certain dealers were able to make a killing selling vintage cards that appeared NMT-MT or better, but had actually been run through a paper mill, thereby enlarged, and subsequently trimmed back down to what was technically the correct size, before the advent of TPG. These cards sold and sold well, because they looked right to a large number of people that believed they knew what was legit and what was not. That is, they looked right unless you knew where to look under 16X power or so! As a matter of ACTUAL FACT, the more objective information one has, the better off one is. To think otherwise reflects only naivete, prejudice or arrogance. In three and a half decades of analyzing the facts in the course of litigation law practice, I've learned quite well the value of having all of the facts available that might even conceivabley affect the conclusions to be drawn. He who chooses to proceed without them is often setting himself up for quite a nasty fall!

I'm sorry to be blunt and not sugar-coat it, but sometimes it's necessary to tell it like it is.

Here's hoping we all prefer to keep our minds open and stay objective,

Larry

Larry
 

Larry, did you happen to notice the scans Leon posted for me? That is the same reprint these two guys have, it was made back in the 70's supposedly, as I was told by the dealer who gave it to me. I've had mine since 1991 and it was old looking then. I have 656 real t206's and my Wagner, which looks exactly like their Wagner, does not look like any of those real t206's. There is no doubt it is a fake card, the back looks real but the front has so many problems it's literally unreal.

Trust me when I say this, I dont like work that much, if I had a real Wagner I wouldn't have it anymore and I certainly wouldn't have a job. Well, I would still be a writer but I wouldn't be working at a restaurant too. These guys do not have anything except the same reprint I've had for 20 years.

If someone now wants to believe because an unknown grading company gave their word it's real, let me know, I'll sell mine for one dollar less than whatever 6 figure price you'd pay for the other one. Reminded me just now that back in the day an unknown grading company graded a Mathewson reprint as real and then came on the board trying to defend their position...we never heard from them again. I suspect the same thing will happen with this company

edit: I have a good memory from 9 years ago, proof that I've been around here waaay too long http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...son+grade+tech

Thanks for dredging that one up! The entire gang's there - even Julie jumped in for a cameo at the end.

If I remember correctly, wasn't that what Dan Mathewson got all upset about and disappeared over?

Leon,

I have just one question. Why isn't ACA Grading one of the links available for grading companies in the Vintage Links section? :mad: You've got PSA listed :p Hey all you PSA lovers, take it easy....

Could you imagine if some numnut one actually bought this card at auction.

Hey Larry
 

I dont need a loupe for any of those counterfeits either, but I guess that's because I know what I am doing. If you need a loupe to tell that card is fake you know nothing about T206's. if you have been around snce the 1980's and need a loupe to tell that is fake you have not learned very much about your hobby.

Is it just me... or... "Mr Bud Abbott & Costello Reincarnated!?!?"

Ahhh... Never mind...

I was thinking more like Ren and Stimpy...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Title_Card.jpg

Nice try, but you are forgetting something. If you look closely at the earlobes......

Attachment 47671

Thus, my vote is in:

Attachment 47670

They are practically twins triplets!

Attachment 47672

Lovely Day...

Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

wow
 

Larry, you seem to be very lost about this card so let me give you history on it. It appeared on ebay many times before anyone knew anything about the sellers so saying someone based their opinion on the card solely based on their opinion of the sellers is extremely way off base, you couldn't be more wrong. Also in response to Glyn you start mentioning the reasons you need a loupe for t206s that have nothing to do with THIS card which is what he was referring. I don't know if you can't see the cards posted in this thread but if you can AND you're still trying to defend your position against it, no one is taking your serious anymore. This card is well known, its been around way too long to still try to have meaningful discussions on the possibility they might be right/wrong

Hundreds of legit people have said this card is fake based on legit knowledge while two people now with no apparent knowledge of t206 cards have said it could be from that era based on paper samples of the back of the card which means they would also say the same thing about a child's drawing of Honus Wagner glued to the front of a t206 card peeled in half.

If I posted my card which is the same exact reprint they have and kept pushing it as real I would instantly have zero credibility and I've done well over 200 deals with various board members. Wouldnt matter what I did in the past or how many deals I've had, I'd be done

So do you actually believe there's any chance it's real?

Having seen the black and white pic of it slabbed I still don't buy it.

There's no or nearly no border to the image area, which is typical of a reprint.
Even the proof has a clear border.

The name and team are darker than the "Pittsburg" on the uniform. On all the pics I have of known real Wagners that lettering is either the same or lighter.

There's a serious loss of detail above TSB on the uniform. A lack of detail seen on no other Wagner. Loss of detail is typical of a rescreened printing (Read reprint)

The aging is very atypical of actual aging. The aging IS typical of a modern reprint dipped in tea or something similar. That highlights cracks in the glosscoat, which is what we see on the card in question.

It appears to have a slight diamond cut, not unusual for a T206 ....But on the sides which is unusual if not unique for a T206

So if we're to believe it's real then we also have to believe that a very early borderless proof printed from a stone etched entirely differently than any other T206 including unreleased players was somehow finished with the production back as NO other proofs were, and glosscoated as only a very few T206s were(Some of the Cobb backs are the only glosscoated ones I've heard of)
And then for some reason cut by machine like a production card, but differently than very nearly all of the production cards.

And that that unique unreleased T206 just happened to be a Wagner.

All that is objective.
If my mother found that card I'd think it was a reprint.
If it wasn't Wagner I'd think it was a reprint.

Yes, the loupe can be handy. I use a 30X one myself, as well as high resolution scans if I want to have a good close look at something. And I use it more as my eyes get old. 20 years ago I could see the dot patterns on fakes without the loupe. Not so much today:(

Yeah, I'd like to see a 1200DPI scan. Or have the card in hand. If only to remove the .000009% chance it might be real.

Steve B

WOW. This card is like a bad cold, it never seems to go away. No one cares what ASA says about this card. The hobby has known it is a fake from the first time it surfaced and it will be a fake until it finally disappears in the night. The strands of paper taken from the back may be from a real T206 but the front is a $.10 fake seen from 1 ft or 100 ft away. I don't care if Bill Gates or Larry the Cable guy owns it. It's still fake and to have pushed this to the point of getting it slabbed as a proof is a slap in the face to every know T206 in the hobby. They got more than their 15 minutes, now I'm hoping they will just fade away. The discussion of it here of having to see it close up or looped is even more perplexing.

Steve, you might be new to this discussion, but....

The legitimacy of this card is no longer questioned, and hasn't been for many, many years, by anyone who has any understanding of lithography and/or scammer behavior (either will do). It was a laughable fake then, and it still is. I was surprised when it first came out and anyone even bothered saying 'why' it's a fake - it's a fake because it's an obvious fake, even from photographs. All the things they did to it to try to make it look real are irrelevant. If they really wanted to pass it off as real, they could have picked a better reprint to start with.

Okay, so throw that card away, next thought: there are just not very many t206 Wagners existing. If we were to ever see a 'previously unreleased version' of ANY t206, do you really think it would be drastically different from all other t206's in every respect other than size, and do you really think it would be of a t206 as rare as the Wagner? I doubt the existence of any such card in a Wagner version, so much, that you would have a hard time showing me one with a blue or red background, with his name spelled wrong, with ANYTHING on it that's different fro a 'normal' Wagner, and convincing me that it was legit, MUCH less if you wouldn't even let a respectable grading company look at it.

I agree it is pointless to continue discussing whether or not the card is real. That is beyond discussion. The only reason this subject was resurrected was that the two owners found a grading service willing to slab it. That's the gist of it; the card's authenticity is not the issue here.

STOP - Here's something that wasn't considered:

What if the BACK of that card came from a "REAL/Authentic" T206 Honus Wagner card? Let's say someone had the real deal and the front was somehow destroyed. The person then takes the "REAL" back from a REAL T-206 Honus Wagner card and pastes a fake Wagner front to it. Wouldn't that make it half real? :p

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?