O/T Best Starting pitcher of all time.
 

Ok, a poll for everyone. who do you think is the best starting pitcher of all time in MLB? I have eight choices, covering mainly the old days, but one notable recent dominant pitcher.

Thanks. should be fun:) Feel free to discuss, esp if you vote "someone else"

For me, its Matty. I read his stats, and of course what a big game pitcher he was at times, not to mention the "golden boy" of his time.

The Train

best
 

depends on whether youre talking long career short time or 1 year
the best longtime would be johnson over 100 shutouts
for 4 years koufax was the best 97-27 era under 2
for 1 season ron guidry 1978 25-3

I have to give the vote to the best pitcher I have ever watched in person - Greg Maddux.

You could place him in any era and he would still win 18-20 games. He probably had the best knowledge of the physics game of anyone in the history of the sport.

Sandy Koufax
 

altho koufax was the best that i ever witnessed...
i think there's a very good reason it's called the "cy young award!"

I was always partial to Mr Nolan Ryan. He had a look...

Mr. Koufax was dominant the last half of his career. Mr. Gibson, not on the list, was truly dominant in 1968.

One of those choices happens to be the one pitcher with the most wins among those who never won the Cy Young award...

The first half of my life I would have thought it would be Christy Mathewson.

Having read the book about Walter Johnson that was well written by his grandson, I'm satisfied that The Big Train would be the man to start that Field of Dreams game for me, if I were allowed to manage.

For one season 1968, has to be Denny Mclain - 31-6, Cy Young and MVP , and Bob Gibson certainly should be on the list. He also won the Cy Young and MVP for the NL in 1968.

Joe

Close but no cigar. Smokey Joe Wood went 34-5 and won 3 World Series games in 1912 and arguably had the best year of any pitcher ever for one season.

Great so far. I was trying to avoid just "best single season" this time.

Honorable mention as well to Three Finger Brown in 1906:

26-6 with a 1.04 ERA...wow

I voted for "someone else". That someone else being Rube Waddell (big surprise), although he really goes into the category of "what might have been". Career 2.16 ERA, and his strikeout numbers at that time were unheard of (349 in 1904).

The Train and Matty. Their really isn't anyone close to those two in my opinion. I believe 3 Finger Brown should be on your list also. Thanks.

On this date in 1908, Walter Johnson pitched his third shutout in four days against the New York Highlanders. 110 shutouts - an unbreakable record. He gets my vote.

Someone Else: Greg Maddux

Whitey Ford?

Tough Call
 

I think this is a very tough call, but I'd pick The Big Train by a nose over Cy Young.

You know Rapid Robert Feller may not be the best of all time, but he certainly has a seat at the table. Lost peak seasons to the war and played in an era of monster hitters.

I would vote for Tom Terrific! He carried the Mets for over a decade. This is a little off topic but my vote for best pitching coach would be Rube Walker. If you look at all the young pitchers he developed and their longetivity it is a testimony to him.
Seaver,Ryan,Koosman,Matlack,McGraw all say that Walker taught them how to pitch while using their legs rather than their arms as the point where they got their pitching velocity and had less stress on their pitching arms giving them the longevity not since much recently by hard throwers. CN

Have to throw Randy Johnson into this discussion. Very overlooked and its unfortunate. In his prime, 1995-2002 Johnson went 143-44 with a 2.61 ERA with 2416 K's in 1763 IP. Mind you, this domination occurred in the midst of the steroid era and Johnson won 5 Cy Youngs, including a stretch of 4 in a row.

Unbelievable.

McClain had a good year in 1968, but the Tigers won many of those 31 games for him. Gibson was dominant, with minimal run support.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/black...ge=keri/080221
Gibson's 22 wins are obviously fewer than McLain's.. In his 9 losses the Cards scored 12 runs. He only gave up 27 runs in the 9 losses. Twice he lost by 1-0 scores, once by 2-0. He won 4 1-0 games. In 13 of his wins the Cards scored 3 runs or less.

Dad went to game 1 of the WS that year, you guys post much more about McLain and I'll dig out his game 1 ticket stub... even today, watching the old video of that game 1, Gibson looked like a man pitching to little leaguers. I recall who won the Series overall, I got to go to game 6 and had tears in my eyes as a kid during that long 2nd inning. '06 was vindication.

In reading Mr. Thomas' book about Walter Johnson, and as much of a Gibson fan as I am, I'm satisfied that Johnson's 1.14 ERA season would have been even better had Johnson not allowed some runs in a regular season game that was jokingly played at the end of the season.

Truth is that Johnson, Mathewson, Waddell, Young, Brown, and others were powerfull. Can't imagine standing in against Wood or Grove would have been much fun, either.

Walter Johnson

often overlooked pitcher
 

I voted for Cy Young... but I am tempted to say Babe Ruth, who is easily the best player ever.

It makes me sad that Grover Cleveland Alexander didn't even make the list.

373 wins
2.56 ERA
90 Career Shutouts
Three 30 win seasons in a row (1915-17)

Mad Dog
 

Greg Maddux.

Walter Johnson. He accomplished quite a bit without a decent lineup behind him for most of his career.

+1
His baseball reference numbers


Black Ink Pitching - 126 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 339 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 257 (9), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 77 (4), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Single seasons you have to mention Steve Carlton 1972 (27 wins for a last place team) and Pedro Martinez 2000 (1.74 ERA in an age where that is essentially impossible).

the other Johnson
 

In their prime, I'd pick Randy the "Big Unit" Johnson.

I figured by limiting it, ID leave off someone. Ol Pete could have been there for sure. Well, right now, The Train is in the lead. not too surprised.

I am old school about many things but this discussion isn't one of them. I would have to go with Ryan or Maddux as well. I discount the statistics of the first four on your list due to the fact they played under Jim Crow. I feel that way about all statistics pre 1947. How can you accurately measure greatness when access to the stage is limited? Can you imagine the dominance of Ryan, Randy Johnson, Maddux, Carlton, Seaver in a world where their didn't have to compete against the likes of Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente, and others who would not have been permitted to take the field during Mathewson's and Johnson's time?

I am pleasantly surprised that Clemens appears nowhere on this list. I would hope that Barry Bonds would also be dismissed from any discussion regarding the greatest hitters.

Walter Johnson hands down. The only pre-war pitcher even close would have been Lefty Grove had Baltimore not refused to sell him for about 5 years of his prime. If he averages 25 wins a year (which would have been easy for him) we would be talking about Grove with 400+ wins.

Modern era, Randy Johnson was absolutely dominant. I have never seen anything like the Big Unit personally. Completely underappreciated considering he was pitching against all the juicers!

In my lifetime, Pedro Martinez. All time, I'd choose Sandy Koufax.

I live in the Northwest and sat near the Mariner bullpen during game 5 of the 1995 League Division Series. I'll never forget the electricity generated by Randy warming up and entering the game as Welcome to the Jungle blared. Wow it still gives me chills. Priceless....

great thread
 

Sneaky underrated, not flashy, but boy, could sure get the job done - will eventually get his name on the "best of all time" list .... Greg Maddux.

Also underrated (if that is possible) - lost HUGE prime years to war ... Bob Feller.

Walter Johnson & Matty are epic great I know, but they did not have to "bring it" and bust a gut on every pitch like they have to do nowadays. The stats they compiled would still be awesome, just not to the stature you see on the stats page. Could you imagine a pitcher today laying off on a few pitches to save themselves for when they really neded it - they wouyld get busted up.

Babe Ruth beat Walter Johnson in 1915/16 on 5 consecutive decisions - yes you read that right - 5 consecutive decisions.

When "on' the best stuff was probably Ryan or Koufax.

Great variety of opinions, but so many variables come into play here. One poster mentioned not to include the first 4 as they played long ago. But notice no pitcher is dominating in the polls post 40s, "someone else" has the most votes divided between several. No doubt Koufax was totally dominant for 5 years and that was good enough to get him into the Hall but only dazzled for a short period. Cy Young's record of wins will never be closely challenged and the award is named after him. In my opinion he was a very good pitcher but not great. His career stats are more based on him being an incredible workhorse. My vote went to Johnson as I believe he is a cut above all others. Second in career wins for a team that struggled for many seasons,very low ERA and leader in career shutouts. Verlander should get the Walter Johnson award this year :)

forgot to vote in prior post
 

If I were starting a team and could choose any starting pitcher in their rookie year thru end of career....

Satchell Paige

I agree 100%.
Smokey Joe best pitching year ever.

J.R Richard - cut down at age 30, but possibly a 220/250 game winner if he stayed healthy, and.......................................left as a FA to NY Yankees(that would have helped his win total moreso then the 70's Astros).


Also he played 1/2 a season with Nolan Ryan b4 his issue, imagine seeing those 2 back to back as a hitter.

Johnson gets my vote

And yes drugs may have entered in his later years, but Roger Clemens was one hell of a pitcher.

I'm a contrarian,:cool: so I voted for Lefty Grove. 9 ERA titles and a .680 winning percentage in an era that was dominated by outstanding hitting.

Pedro
 

If we are talking about the best ever regardless of how long their prime lasted, I would have to go with Pedro Martinez. His prime only lasted about 13 years, but over that span I think that statistically he was the best of all time. Now...if we are adding longevity as a major factor I would personally go with the Big Train.

Tom C

Grover Cleveland Alexander
 

Great pitcher - better than Matty - with so-so support. Lots of personal difficulties and missed time to WWI.

'twas my vote
 

'Twas my vote and the Poll doesn't lie- The Big Train.

110 shutouts while playing for a fairly crappy team

Baseball-reference.com rates him as the #1 pitcher (black ink) of all time. Stats don't lie either.....

Casey Stengel held Whitey back and only let him pitch against the cream of the crop. He never pitched against cream puffs. If he had, his win/loss record would have been through the roof.....

To paraphrase Smoky Joe Wood:

"Walter was the best of all time. He would've won a lot more games if he'd had a good club behind him."

I already posted my 1 year pitchers, McLain and Gibson, Overall Walter Johnson. And to the other posts Maddux no way.

Joe

Also need to include Roger Clemens in the conversation. He has as many Cy Youngs as Cy has letters in his name.

50 years from now
 

when many of us are pushin up daisies, and someone poses the same question, a lot more people will say Greg Maddux--they'll remember him from THEIR youth and that he will have been a first round HOF ---and when they name the greatest pitching staff of all time, Maddux, Glavine , Smoltz and Avery!!!!

John Clarkson
 

should get some love for his stats.

Averaged 30 wins a season for 11 years!!!! also averaging 44 complete games a year during that time frame!!! Average per year not total over 11 years, but 44 per year....insane!

For me, it's Cy Young hands down. I want the guy who is going to win games, not the guy with the flashy strikeout, shutout and ERA. Young has many more wins than Johnson and a better winning percentage. A great pitcher needs to win games even on a bad team.

I disagree...a pitcher plays defense..he doesn't score runs. Nolan Ryan in 1987 led the league in ERA yet he still had 16 losses and only 8 wins. His team couldn't score runs...that's not Ryan's fault.

If your team doesn't score any runs, don't give up any runs. When you have a good lead, you're going to throw the ball over the plate. If you give up a couple runs, nobody cares. A great pitcher should be able to give up only one run if his team scores two. If his team scores ten, he can allow the other team to score a few. Please don't forget that pitchers did bat back then.

Bob Gibson - What a hardass/competitor what a pitcher should be, he had the pitches, the mind, the determination and the "balls". If I had to pick one guy to pitch one game I think he might be my guy.

That doesn't make any sense to me...if you give up one run over 9 innings, but still lose 1-0 that doesn't qualify as a great pitching performance, but if you win the game 9-8 that qualifies??

In 1996 Roger Pavlik was 15-8 with a 5.18 ERA...do you believe that's a better season than Nolan Ryan's 1987 season?

With corrections for prevailing era conditions, a dead heat between Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove--check out Grove's neutralized stats at www.baseball-reference.com. Put him in the National League in 1966, playing at Dodger Statdium, and virtually every one of his seasons looks as good or better than Koufax circa 1965-1966. Remember, Lefty pitched when the entire league hit .280 plus, and a good number of the stadiums were of the bandbox variety.

Nice thread,

Larry

For Robert W... Casey wasn't the one holding Whitey back. Jim Turner did that. Casey picked the players and then asked Jim to give him a pitcher. Casey and Jim went back to Mudhen days before Jim ever reached the majors. Casey and Jim had been told by the owners to not let any of the pitchers get too many wins in a season, lest they try to use that as a reason to get more money during contract negotiation.

iwantitiwinit, you have me thinking that if it was just ONE game, and Mr. Gibson had fire in his eyes, he may well be my choice, too. But over a career, Walter Johnson is still tops for me.

It doesn't make sense that the only thing a pitcher needs to do is give up less runs than his team scores?

Kid Nichols
 

Nichols had a 10 year span that in each season he won more than 20 games and 7 seasons he won more than 30 games. I believe he has more 30 win seasons than any other pitcher in the history of the game. 9 of the 10 years he won more than 25 games-I would think that is pretty dominant in any era

I really like Matty, but voted for Johnson. If you listen or read The Glory of Their Times, all of those guys talk about Walter Johnson as the greatest. I know there has been 50 years since that book was written, but his numbers say alot.
For a single season Hoss Radbourn had "Fifty Nine in 84"

Lots of great replies.

Bob Gibson, 1968 - Never ONCE knocked out of a game that year. Only times he was lifted were for pinch hitters. How incredible is that?

Pedro Martinez - Pedro's lack of durability kills his shot at greatest of all-time but his 2000 might be the best single year ever. 0.737 WHIP, 11.8K/9, and an ERA of 1.74 - when the next best ERA was 3.70! He was TWO RUNS BETTER than every other pitcher in the league. That's just unreal. Pedro's WHIP was the best of all-time. His ERA+ was the best in the post-1893 era.

For a career, I would probably go with Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens. Clemens was boosted by steroids, no question - but he was also pitching against roided up monsters. .658 win%, 6 20-win seasons, 7 Cy Young awards (should be 8), an MVP, and so on.

Tabe

So in a game you need to win you'd start 1996 Roger Pavlik over 1987 Nolan Ryan? Wins are nice, but they do not even begin to tell the story of how effective a pitcher is.

+1

Wins should just be a part of the equation; to ignore the other components isn't logical.

Who was the greatest?
 

You know where my vote went, but there should be more votes for Satchel Paige and Bob Feller.
Hank Thomas

Regardless of era pitched in, Walter Johnson followed closely by Christy Mathewson.

Lets have a poll for the most overated pitcher of all time and I bet Sandy Koufax gets the same percentage of votes in that poll than the one we are participating in right now. He WAS Ron Guidry, their stats are basically identical but people would laugh at Guidry as the greatest of all time yet Koufax gets 10% of the vote? Just shows how much popularity plays into the equation. I know people will disagree BUT, the numbers dont lie, he and Guidry are eerily similar.

Three cool dudes.

If I had to give the ball to one guy, to win one game, I'd go off the board: Catfish Hunter.

I don't remember Guidry pitching 4 no-hitters, including a perfect game, winning the pitching triple crown three times, or winning 3 Cy Youngs when only one was awarded. Nor did he have a 0.95 ERA in the post season. Guidry was a very good pitcher, but he was a far cry from being anywhere close to as dominant as Koufax.

If Roger Pavlik will give me a win and Ryan won't then I'll take Pavlik all day long.
So you'd rather your favortie team has the league's lowest ERA than win the World Series? To think that anything but winning games is important isn't logical. Giving up only one run may be impressive, but when it comes down to it all that matters is winning the game.

Rotisserie baseball has ruined how people look at stats. If you play for a team which doesn't score many runs, your ERA is going to be lower than if you played for a team which scores a lot of runs. This is true in most cases.

I think you are missing the point. The point is that if Roger Pavlik and Nolan Ryan got the same run support, Nolan Ryan would have many more wins.

Catfish was a great pitcher, but...

If my life depended on winning one game? Without hesitation, Pedro Martinez. Look at the era he pitched in, compare him to the rest of the league. It's not even close....

On a side note...

No disrespect to Nolan Ryan, but as good as he was at times, he was a .500 pitcher on .500 ball clubs. Did he really make his team better when he pitched?

Career numbers do not lie.

Koufax and Guidry are almost the same guy. I wasn't talking about No-Hitters or the "the pitching triple crown" but you could get into the same arguments with Guidry as his best single season was better than Koufax's best single season and Guidry played in a much more hitter friendly League and Era than Koufax did.

Just going off the numbers Koufax gets a VERY slight edge in career stats but they are so very similar that if names were removed from the occasion and you just looked at numbers it is extremely close.

The point is that you can take 2 similar guys, one is the best ever in some people's eyes while the other gets not even a hint of a mention.

Nor do career statistics tell the entire truth. Koufax and Guidry had similar career won-loss numbers, true. Koufax dominated in every other important pitching category, without nearly the same type of run support Guidry was getting, going up against the Gibsons and Marichals of the league. Almost .5 ERA lower, 600 more strikeouts in 2 less years, 14 more shutouts in 2 less years, a substantially better WHIP, and a league leader in every important pitching category far more often than Guidry. In the 5 years before he retired, Koufax was always in the top 5, most often 1st or 2nd. It isn't even close. Guidry never had that type of run. Guidry was a real good pitcher, but the fact that he achieved some similar won/loss numbers in two more years doesn't make him the same pitcher as Koufax.

There's a lot more to it than the final numbers. If career statistics "do not lie," then I suppose Eppa Rixey is basically the same pitcher as Bob Feller because they won the same number of games, had similar ERAs, and had similar WHIPs. Don Sutton and Steve Carlton, who pitched pretty much at the same time, had similar won/loss records and ERAs. Does that make Sutton the same pitcher as Carlton? Intuitively, I know that's not right.

Adjustments to Pitching Stats
 

Here's something I've always wondered about, but have never been enough of a stat guy to look into: Walter Johnson, for example, pitched most of his career with a very weak hitting team behind him, so for 1/7th of the games during that time, he never got to pitch against those relative weaklings in his league. Conversely, he never got a pass on some of the strongest hitters in his league by having them on his team. I'm sure there are other examples of this disparity among the other pitchers, some going the other way. For his time especially, when teams played each other 22 times a season, i would think this could have a serious impact on a pitcher's numbers, and maybe hitters, too. Think of this: Walter Johnson faced Ty Cobb 365 times in his career. In other words, Cobb had almost 2/3 of a season just against Johnson! If Cobb had been on Johnson's team, he never would have had to hit against him. And think of Lefty Grove: he never had to face three of the best hitters in his league during his prime: Foxx, Simmons, and Cochrane. And they never had to bat against him. Just wondering if any of the SABR type adjustments take this into account.
Hank Thomas

I voted for The Big Train...

But I was distressed to see no mention of Carl Hubbell at all. In three pages of posts, I would have thought his name would appear just once. Not that I read every word of every post...

But regardless of whether I missed it, seems like King Carl is one of the most overlooked/under-rated Pitchers of all-time...

And that's why TEAMS are measured by wins but players are judged by their individual stats.

Do you seriously want Ray Oyler as your starting shortstop because his team won a World Series? Or Miguel Tejada, whose teams never even won a postseason series?

Tabe

You're suggesting I believe that if A.J. Burnett gets a loss, it's CC Sabathia's fault. Of course not. :D But when a pitcher pitches, it's his job to win the game, whatever the circumstances are. I don't care if your ERA is two- if you can't consistently give up less runs then the other team scores then you aren't a good pitcher. Each day a pitcher goes out there his goal is to get a win for his team. Not pitch a shutout. Not keep his WHIP under 1. Sure, he wouldn't mind getting a shutout, but he knows as long as he keeps the other team under their score he's fine.

Sure, we can speculate that if a certain pitcher got more run support he would have gotten more wins. Thing is, he didn't. There's no way to know something that didn't happen.

By the way, right now I'd take Ray Oyler over Miguel Tejeda. (I know he's deceased)

edited to add- I'm talking about starting pitchers- not position players and relief pitchers.

Pitchers like Hubbell and Alexander who had one HUGE shining moment often get overlooked for their career because of that one moment...for Hubbell it was the AS game strikeouts and for Alexander it was the Lazzeri strikeout.

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

Good article. There definitely is an argument that the Great Rivera (as Jon Miller calls him) is the best pitcher ever.