My impromptu chat with Joe O.
 

So this was approximately my 10th-12th National and I have seen Joe Orlando walking around at many of them. He seems very interested in his companies success and is around their booths much of the time. I am quite sure he has known about Net54baseball for years and I am sure he has heard my name on more than a few occasions, but I had never met him. I would be very surprised if he hasn't read the board and wouldn't be surprised if he reads it regularly. I would if I were him. I also helped him and his assistant catch a person that sent me an email while impersonating him. That person admitted it under oath, I am told. At any rate I know many of the issues surrounding PSA and so forth. They are a large company and when you are grading 100k+ cards a month I am sure it's impossible to get every one correct. Also, one of our board members had an issue with PSA and took them to court and won. So, it's not been all roses for Joe and PSA, concerning Net54baseball. That being said I have never had anything against PSA or Joe. I have my preferences for grading companies but hey, It's America.

At this last National I saw Joe walking rather briskly down an aisle so I figured it was a good enough time to meet him. I said, "excuse me Joe, I just want to meet you" and introduced myself. He was very polite and we probably spoke for 10-15 minutes. I truly think he wants what is best for the hobby and runs as good of a ship as can be run, given the circumstances surrounding the human objectivity in grading. I think he would like to help clean up the hobby and can't stand the fraud, deceit and scamming that goes on. In most of these respects he and I feel exactly the same way. I just want to give a shout out to him for taking the time to get to know me and chat with me, when he was obviously on his way going somewhere else. I let him know if I can ever be of help, just let me know. My guess is that would be a reciprocated gesture. Joe seems like a nice guy and a true hobbyist. best regards

Good post Leon.

"dealer grades" for everybody!

YA-FA-FA-HOOOOO!

I personally have had several opportunites to work with Joe Orlando and I also find him to be a true hobbyist and an extremely nice person. Joe is very thoughtful about the way he conducts himself and runs his business. He is always open to suggestions and new ideas. He also doesn't run from problems when they are presented to him. I know this first-hand from my years of collecting my own personal items and now from a business standpoint with my new company. From my experience, he is very approachable and will do anything he can to help a fellow collector. His knowledge is extensive and he is more than willing to share it when asked.

As far as PSA authentication/grading goes, I really don't think I would have spent as much money on my personal collection without PSA being in existence. The PSA name, whether you all agree with me or not, gives me as a collector a sense of security when purchasing high-end collectibles. I look at it as a bit of insurance when I'm buying. So, in my humble opinion, PSA (and other legit companies) are just plain good for our hobby. And, if in the end they make a profit (which is, by-the-way why companies are in business to begin with) then good for them - after all, we need more employed people.

I know that all of us on this forum are very passionate about the hobby, and we definitely see our share of not-so-ethical people out there. It's good that we have this venue to share the hobby experience, knowledge of collectibles and spread the word about fraudulent activities, but I personally would like to see more positive statements being posted more often too.

Thanks Leon, for a refreshingly positive post!

I think I'm gonna cry.

any word on when the 1/4 grade scale will be implemented?

Joe & PSA...
 

Leon,

Nice post and I must concur on similar observations as Joe strikes me as a guy who is tireless and works hard for PSA. I must have walked by the PSA booth a dozen times and just about every time I walked by he was engaged in a conversation with a customer (working, sleeves rolled up) and I remember noticing this at open and close, so he strikes me as one of those hands on leaders of his organization. This is only my perception of what I saw, but I must also say that I use PSA as well as SGC and think they both do a pretty good job. I use both companies for different grading ventures and I have generally been pleased over the years with their service.

Cheers - JJ

sleeves rolled up?

hmm... sounds like the weeds got pulled, chickens fed, cows milked, and the hay got put up right.

another g** damn hard working american dream.

oh yeah,

forgot to ask, what were the perfix cert numbers on the set-up day PSA show grades this year?

OUch. someone has an ax to grind w PSA

Oh Joe read this board plenty, he even quoted a post of mine when he screamed at me and hung up on me when I tried to collect the legal fees from the law suite. The back of their form stated back then that if you win a judgement from them in court, they will pay your legal fees. NOT, when I called to collect those, good ole Joe screamed at me and hung up on me.

You can have him Leon sorry

I have no respect whatsoever for him

Dan Mckee

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

That sounds like the Mike Brown approach to running a NFL franchise. If he put half the effort into actually fixing the Bengals' issues as he does trying to deflect/suppress legitimate criticism, they might have had more than two winning seasons in the past 20 years... :rolleyes:

+1

My take-away from Leon's post is that sometimes really nice and caring people do a terrible job running a company.

a few more thoughts...
 

As I said, I know there are some on this board that have, and have had issues with Joe and/or PSA. Anytime someone is doing well and running a fairly large and successful organization there will be detractors. It would also be nice if some of those criticizing him would be more a part of the solution than the problem. How about starting a good, positive thread sometimes? Oh wait, it's easier to just bitch. I understand things go "poof" sometimes on the CU boards. Well, it's their board and they don't care to take all of the bitching the way I do. To me, no big deal. It's part of the gig. To them, they would rather not hear it sometimes. I can't really say I blame them but it's just not my style.

There are many folks in the hobby who don't like me and have never met me, spoke on the phone with me, and maybe not even emailed with me. It goes with the territory. There is no doubt Joe (and I...and you) will make mistakes as we are human. Overall, I find Joe a very nice and likable guy that is good for the hobby. I feel he is part of the solution. I wish I could say the same for everyone...

And btw, as outspoken as you are Jeff L., I like you and think you are good for the hobby in that no matter what, we know we have you to help point out crap and inconsistencies. At the same time I realize I get no free lunch from you either. Hey, but you could have at least bought me a soda in the cafe when we had a really nice chat at the National? Thanks again for taking time out to sit and talk for a while. It's too rare of an occurence.

Now you've gone too far!!

I know......just shoot me now. :D

I've said it before. "Joe is a great advocate for PSA". Any company would like someone like him on board.

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

Yes, Bill Mastro.

Not Dave Forman?

I've known Joe for more than a decade now and he's always been very honest and extremely passionate about the hobby. He's not scared or shy about pointing it out when he doesn't agree with something, but that's the way it should be. He runs a company that has a massive bullseye on its chest at all times, whether it's grading or authentication, few are ever completely satisfied with the results so it's not his job to be everyone's friend. I've gotten to know quite a few of the key people at PSA through the years and whether its Joe, Roy, Steve, Zach or others, I've been nothing but impressed on each occasion dealing with them.

Steve Bloedow
Collect Auctions

I think Joe loves the hobby and has done a ton for it. You asked a question so I will give an honest, non sarcastic, personal opinion answer-

Jefferson Burdick

.
.
.
.

No, because Bill gave something to the hobby ($$) in that lawsuit and Dave didn't.

history
 

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

Jefferson Burdick - A very fine example indeed.

I love all these threads about meeting the people with past histories that are stained on how nice they are and what a great person they are. What do you expect? them telling you to stick it and move on, heck your just another potential mark. What makes you think they are going to change or treat you different all they want is your money, bottom line and =they don't care how they get it or who gets hurt.

Keep spreading the love until it actually touches you and find there is no love in these people.

Lee

I seem to remember hearing stuff like that, yep.

Tabe

Sy Berger and Topps, Mickey Mantle and a myriad of other MLB players for starters.

Also, I know many hobby purists / long-time collectors would also argue that third party grading has done more damage to the hobby than anything else since it has turned this hobby into, well, I guess I'm going to have to use that dreadful word: "industry". And if TPG has done the most damage, who do you put on the top of that list?

Has Joe O contributed a lot to the hobby? Sure.

Is he one helluva guy? Seems so.

Does PSA know how to consistently grade pre-war cards? Not on your life.

I dislike PSA for the only reason that matters to me as a collector.

I believe you are referring to David Hall the president of Collectors Universe and founder of PSA. He even had his cards in the PSA registry as I recall. And yes, CU did have a sports card auction branch called Superior Auctions.

David Hall is still with CU, mainly in the coin-branch of the company, but now has his own coin company specializing in CU-graded high dollar coins. I believe it's called David Hall Rare Coins. Old habits die hard.

Went to the PSA registry dinner on Friday and David Hall was one of the speakers as was Joe Orlando. It was the registry awards and David Hall was inducted into the PSA Hall of Fame for his previous collection. I also subsequently saw him at Memory Lane buying or selling cards as well. I would think he is also involved in the hobby as he stated he was working on T206's--primarily the tougher backs. At least that was his quote in the registry dinner.

it's sort of funny
 

Ok, so I tried to say something good about Joe O, who seems like a good guy. I think this thread is very indicative of what many folks who I frequently speak with say about this board. I sort of cringe when they say it but it's the truth. There is so much negativity it sometimes turns people off. If you are so disgusted with the hobby and that bitter about everything, why not just find another one? I, for one, would rather spread good will towards other collectors and try to see the positive, at least sometimes. It's not like all of our 3000'ish members are going to let bad things be done without pointing them out. And yeah, I get the fact everyone likes a train wreck. I admit I slow down to take a look too. And then there are the few people who would rather post positively on other boards and then come here to post their hatred, venom and vile. That really sucks....Just look up in this thread and you will see all of what I say.

Joe- if you are reading this, keep up the good work.

I agree with Leon- too much negativity on this board.

Leon, I understand your wanting to be happy and your desire for Net 54 to be a happy place but you need to appreciate that just because the guy was nice to you for a few minutes at the National doesn't mean he should be presumed to be a shining light in the hobby. It also doesn't mean that he's a bad guy either. This hobby is filled with controversial people and topics and people will disagree. There were positive things about Joe said on this thread and negative -- exactly what I would expect. What's the problem?

Well, one of the posters above seems to post positively other places but just comes here to post negatively, which really bugs me...that and a certain someone seems to get drunk and post hatred, but I actually like him :). Hey, I get it Jeff...I realize that just because he was nice to me for a few minutes doesn't make him a "great" guy :). But we all know a fair amount about PSA, and though they have their issues, I do believe they run a good ship. I do understand what you are saying though. And please understand that I just speak (write) extemporaneously sometimes. Otherwise, how the heck would I have over 5100 posts? I do believe Joe was being very genuine when we spoke and I appreciated that. He admitted a lot of stuff and you can tell he understands his company, and himself aren't perfect. But I think he tries which is more than I can say for many folks on this board. For all of those that bitch it would be great to see them start just one, tiny positive thread about cards!! Oh the joy that would bring.

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

"I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA?"


Lew Lipset--one of the hobby greats, who no longer gets the recognition he deserves

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

One conversation I will always remember and ironically it was with someone in this thread. We were all in a car going somewhere, at the National. I asked the question to the few others, "would you pay $3 more for a better holder to protect your expensive cards?" That person said "no way". I laughed.....I thought it was a stupid question as I thought anyone would pay a few bucks for a better holder, but I guess I was wrong (again).

Agree 100%.
Grading sucks

I have known Joe a very long time...well before he was working for PSA. Joe does have a great deal of passion for the hobby. I don't think Joe is the problem at PSA and I don't think that he alone can change all that is wrong at PSA. Some of the things collectors and dealers complain about are the same things they have complained about for almost 20 years. And not to derail the thread but SGC is fraught with their own issues so obviously there are inherent problems with third party grading.

I have had only positive experiences with Joe. He is passionate about the hobby, and professional in his business dealings. Though the few issues I have brought to him have not always turned out the way I wanted, they have always been handled professionally and I can always see his/PSA's perspective.
JimB

bad mix
 

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Until you buy a 25k card, like I did, didn't notice a tiny bit of touched up color, and returned the card for a full refund after the graders caught it....then, grading doesn't suck so much.

Unless of course you are the seller...then it might suck. Just some random thoughts that I have experienced....and it was with a Boston Garter...

Lionel Carter and others whose contributions to the hobby are just being appreciated by collectors.

Better doing that in such a state than bidding in the extended time portion on an on-line auction.

Perfect and human don't usually go together!
 

+1. Like Leon, I favor the measure of protection companies like PSA and SGC offer. I remember during the early '90's, when grading companies were just getting started in cards after gaining quite a foothold in coins a few years earlier, when there were a lot more raw cards which appeared to be of high grade, out there to be gone through. A little experience with one particular local dealer, that dealer's penchant for altering cards, and PSA's feedback taught me to take along a 16X loupe to check the edges and other elements of a card a lot more closely. Those were the days when you could find and buy a raw NMT-MT '55 Gil Hodges for less than $150, get it graded as an "8," and turn around and sell it for $300 or so, if that was your heart's desire. Now, with a much higher percentage of the cards I'm seeking having been graded, the loupe has been a far less essential piece of equipment for shows. Everyone knows the grading companies aren't perfect, and we know darn well that we aren't either! But make no mistake, they have had made it far more difficult for the would-be scammers to steal your $$$ in this hobby! And yes, Jeff L. also makes an outstanding contribution, adding balance to the equation, with his outspoken nature and insight. The more informed you are, the better decisions you'll usually make, emotions aside.

As always, an interesting debate!

Larry

Better holders
 

Cost is almost certainly a factor in developing and marketing a tamper-proof holder, as PSA strives to compete effectively in the marketplace, especially of course with its main rival, SGC. I would also very much like to see UV protection offered against fading. Good thought, Jeff.

Best to all who make this forum such an interesting place to go!

Larry

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

I have to admit that when my partners and I were discussing our marketing budget for our new company and we were looking into where to advertise, we all came to the conclusion that we really weren't thrilled about spending any of our advertising dollars on such a negative forum. In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything, but we reminded ourselves that there are many good people who don't speak up because they don't want to waste their time on negative crap. We watched the forum for some time and quickly realized that if you look past the few, you will see many real collectors with alot of knowledge, who appear to be friendly and want to share and help others. Thanks to all who have a positive impact on this forum! I for one appreciate the information I have gained by being a member.

As much as I like PSA, not sure I agree with this. I've cracked open many a recent PSA slab, and it seems just as easy as the older slabs. SGC is slightly more difficult. Now, Beckett, on the other hand, that's an incredibly tough slab to open up. If any slab is tamper-proof, it's Beckett.

Sorry to hear that. As a long time collector, I still prefer cards in the raw. of course, a lot of my collection is now slabbed because that's how they come nowadays. But when I decide that I really like a card and want to keep it, then I often break it out of the slab and put it on the stack of keepers.

Tony, is this a serious post or are you just being satirical? I'm being earnest I just can't tell for sure. I'm thinking it's satirical and it's the funniest post of the year. Congrats!

I don't know Joe and respect Leon's judgment. But, I think Jeff's point is most telling. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would post on a board that engages in censorship. The price we pay in "negativity" is far outweighed, in my view, by the virtue of free expression.

What!?!
 

Well, who's fault is that? You paid 25k for an old piece of cardboard? You know better than that, Leon...don't you? ;)

I'm glad I don't know any of the PSA or SGC people personally. I just send my cards in and hope for the best grades possible. I know what to expect from both companies and usually get great customer service from both.

:)

I'm with Alan on this one...I have seen mistakes made by both psa and sgc...exponentially more by psa...but that is likely in part due to their much larger volume.

I recently crossed a card SGC graded A to PSA(my 1st experience with PSA at the national) and my card received a deserved 10...in this case PSA got it right.

My experience with PSA at the national was much more professional and organized than with SGC...who had a pretty small setup with 1 guy helping w/submissions and another in the background.

3rd party graders are what they are...and in this day and age are necessary for the good of the hobby.

I guess ultimately it's like going to another doctor for a second opinion. That's all it is...another "opinion"...just like grading!

And regarding PSA's dubious past behavior on many counts...the biggest fish in the pond tends to take liberties, break the rules, act unconscionably at times...all in the name of the all mighty dollar!

I have nothing against PSA, but after receiving those (3) absolute garbage DeLong's in the mail that we're supposed to PSA 3, I have to wonder who they have grading there. Some blonde who goes to cosmetology school at night?

Psa Grading
 

I've only had two experiences with PSA, both were very positive. The grading seemed to my eye to be very consistent. I also enjoy the PSA Webpage and forums. I appreciate the SMR guide and Population reports. So, even though I've never met Joe, I admire his work.

As to the question of grading my thought is that cards should be graded to protect the card. You will never get perfection when you have a human being judging a card's attributes, but by putting a card in a holder you will preserve its condition (at least most of the time). I know you can preserve cards in plastic without spending the money to have it graded, but occasionally you will take the card out of the sleeve and risk damaging it, or you will damage it by pressing it between a pair of acrylic blocks. It really bothers me when I get a nice card in the mail that I know I will have to flip, and it just doesn't warrant the grading fees. You just know that the card is going to be passed around a couple of more times in a raw condition and soon will drop a grade or two through normal handling.

You can see how 100 years has really done a number on many of our treasures. I wonder what they will look like another hundred years from now if they are left in a naked state?

Just my two cents...

Best regards,

Joe

agree
 

Good posts, Joe and Pete, I couldn't agree more...good points!

It is what it is...human grading! Either jump in or stay away, it's your prerogative.

The entry-level minimumwage blonde grader
 

Yes , I think I know her ; she's majoring in nail-polish chemistry and I'm sure she's the same grader who keeps returning my 1937 Wide Pens Goudey Premiums Canadian Type 5's as '' 1936 R314 '' ...... And then they try to tell me that three experienced sets of eyes have verified and signed off on every slab that leaves the building........ SGC has graders over age 29 I hope....

As some great sage of card collecting once said, "Buy the card, not the holder"! :D

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

Still the funniest post of the year.

for the record
 

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Down goes Frazier...Down goes Frazier!

Leon, it was awful watching that arrest at the National and put me in such a crappy mood about the hobby. But somehow I managed to soldier on and despite my negative feelings about fraud in the hobby I still spent 11K on cards in the past ten days. I just want you to know that some of us Negative Nellies still have disposable income. And I read the shit out of those banner ads. I read them so much I think they're burned into my eyeballs. Carry on.

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy:)
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

Then I take back everything I said..... :) I love ya' man.....Thanks for advertising. Quite honestly I can't keep up with every one of ya'll but did get to meet many at the National. Truth be known I almost have a phobia with remembering names but am damn good remembering at faces :confused:.

I have an overwhelming desire to let folks hang themselves if they want to. That being said there will never be anonymity allowed when arguing with or berating others....

Something tells me we are actually in full agreement on just about everything. I too speak my mind and have put my foot in my mouth on occasion (see last post)......You have contributed but have only started 2 threads....which is actually more than most members probably have. Most folks don't want to get into the fray. Me, I jump in and ask questions later. You would think I would know better.

Jeff- I can't say I was joyous about the arrest at the National but I am of a different opinion. I am glad it happened and I think the guy should have been paraded around the room twice, with trumpeters trumpeting in front of him. I absolutely think that sort of thing can help act as a deterrent. I wish there were no fraud in the hobby but, to me, it's nice to know someone is watching. best regards

...

Lol
 

LOL....no doubt.....still trying to get my foot out of my mouth.....

.
 

Why do I feel like everyone's staring at me... :cool:

Interesting thread. My thoughts:

Empty suit.

Thin-skinned.

Weasel.

Thinking all about it, Leon is right about Joe Orlando
 

I first met Joe Orlando at the very first PSA Registry Luncheon approximately 10 years ago. I introduced myself and we had a very nice, cordial face-to-face discussion for approximately 10 minutes – very much like Leon’s experience at the 2011 National. In short, a terrific guy who cares about collectors and the well-being of the hobby!

Sadly, as a few board members know and as Leon alluded to in the first post of this thread, someone attempted to impersonate Mr. Orlando via e-mail several years ago. When this occurred, Leon was accommodating enough to show me the e-mail and I for one knew instantly it was a fake. How did I know? Anyone who has ever read any of Mr. Orlando’s articles or letters to the collecting community know that he always ends the message with, “Never Get Cheated”. This phrase was conspicuously absent from that e-mail therefore rendering it unquestionably bogus.

Once I came to the realization that someone or perhaps several people were impersonating Mr. Orlando, my mind began to race back over the years to all my other Joe Orlando encounters. One that immediately comes to mind was at the 2003 Atlantic City PSA Registry luncheon. Leading up to this event there had been ongoing controversial rumors that PSA was going to go to half-grades and this created a major uproar among many of the registry collectors like me who already owned thousands of PSA-graded cards. Although I was sitting in the far back of the registry luncheon and already had a few drinks, I recall someone getting up in front of the luncheon attendees who identified himself as Joe Orlando and seemed to have a striking resemblance to the person I met two years earlier. Anyway, this person stood up and made the unequivocal announcement, “Read my lips. PSA will never go to half grades!” This should have been the first tip-off that someone was impersonating Joe at public functions since as we all know now, PSA did go to half grades.

This also explains many other “enigmatic” incidences that have occurred since. There had been allegations that Joe ejected a collector from the 2009 registry luncheon in Cleveland for privately expressing his concerns that someone might be successfully getting doctored cards past the PSA graders. I thought this collector was just confused, and perhaps Joe was just exhorting him to leave to get back to the convention to buy more cards, but he seemed to think that this wasn’t the case and had a witness to substantiate that incident. Now it’s clear this alleged misunderstanding must have been with the Joe Orlando impersonator. There have been numerous other confusing things that happened during this time span, such as my banishment from the CU Boards and all of my sets being deleted from the PSA registry, but it wouldn’t be fair to Joe to bring up those types of incidents since I’m now relieved to know it wasn’t him after all.

Kudos to Leon for helping bust up this impersonation ring and putting everything back in its proper perspective.

Lmao!

Last three posts: GOLD.

Oh, please. This sounds like another one of those 'teams' consisting of 1 person. And, for the record, I only say positive things about everything, which is why my opinion is worthless.

Bill

Bill,

Someone has to be a ray of sunshine. Good to see you in Chicago.

Jeff