National prices?
 

As I was going through my cards I am taking to the National to sell, I was putting prices on them. I adjusted most of them down because of the economy. Any thoughts on what you think prices will be like? Will they be like the ebay BIN museum pieces, or more like a real sale with fair prices? I spoke with a large ebay and website dealer earlier today and he said he thought the economy might take a toll on buyer's budgets. I concurred but said I feel the less seldom seen cards and good buys will still do ok. The 2-4 yrs old inventory with no adjustment in prices will be back next year :).

Prices...
 

First of all, I'm happy when dealers actually put prices on their cards, instead of wasting everyone's time when they have to look something up. Leon, your table with make me happy (especially since you're already dropping prices!!):).

I think many dealers should/must/will have competitive/flexible prices on cards at the National due to the economy and the fact they have to pay for their expensive tables and lodging. If not, they'll be the ones complaining about sales on Sunday afternoon. In my opinion, it will be a good year for buyers that have some patience and some extra cash. I'm personally looking forward to buying some good stuff!

Matt

and btw
 

And btw, I get the idea behind putting prices on the backs of the cards so dealers can have dialogue. The prices on my cards will all be on the fronts. That is always a tiny pet peeve (not a big one) of mine.

Leon, you're a cock-eyed optimist, much like Billy Mumphrey. As you noted, the BIN ebay prices are still insane; there's no reason to believe that the dealers at the National -- most if not all sell on ebay -- will suddenly be hit with a dose of reality and adjust their prices. I was pretty stunned by how crazy the prices were last year and I expect more of the same. Some dealers are realistic during a negotiation and some just are not.

There are a lot of dealers who don't realize they are collectors but their pricing makes them that way. I hate not making the national this year, and I certainly always spend all my money, but I have not found the national to be a very good buying experience.

I would expect realized prices on mid grade stuff to be down a bit.

Hey Leon, what is your table number at the National? If you are there on Sunday I'll be certain to stop by.

Leon, just don't get mixed up in world diplomacy or international intrigue. The stakes are just too high.

538
 

We will be at table 538 but not positive about setting up on Sunday.....

FWIW a friend of mine just got back from setting up at the Cooperstown show and said he had his best sales in years.

I have never been to a "National", but at the local card show in Raleigh, some of the dealers have high enough prices, they make Ebay look like Big Lots.......When I see some of the prices, I just can't even dicker, they are so absurdly high.....

I'm expecting the majority of dealers to have their cards ridiculously overpriced...with a small % of sellers within reason...or just slightly overpriced!

There are a bunch of dealers that really want to sell their cards, so they price them very fair.

I would be surprised if there are more than a handful of folks with realistic/reasonable prices.

Agreed. I think that the great majority overprice by far; some come down to market prices if begged considerably.

However... seeing someone holding dollar bills might make a reduced sale more tempting to someone who hasn't sold items in a while.

The psychology works both ways. Sellers know buyers don't want to come home with nothing but a Net 54 pin, so they are banking on people being willing to overpay for that card they really want.

I would agree. The captive audience of buyers with cash burning holes in their pockets trumps the casual eBay window shopper.

My Motto

If you don't like my prices, send over your wife and we can dicker!

before anything i'll look at every table, decide later what to get and see how much i want to spend, hopefully i can find some steals but there might not be much

i wish i could go to the national show but i'm poor and they never come to ohio but with prices on ebay are not realistic they are way over priced in most cases and the economy has really taken a hit and you can see it in every facit of every market except precious metals.

esd- i hear ya, with myself getting married in a year, my vintage baseball has been downgraded but still love my vintage and yet i still have fun with them, as far as prices i just buy what i can afford. Nationals I hope is good to me

I'm poor too. I don't have much money to spend on cards there, but at least I attend. BTW - The National does get to Cleveland on a regular basis, or at least it did before Baltimore replaced it.

i am glad im not the only in the poor category in vintage

Few things
 

1) If you can afford to go; then by all means go to the National or if another larger show in your area.

2) When it comes to vintage; once you pass the tables with nothing but museum quality material; there are many places where reasonably priced vintage can be found. Usually they will be in boxes slightly to the side and say discount box, etc. Some dealers with better material also have those discount boxes

3) Because vintage is more expensive;; there is a greater likelihood that dealers will bring their lower quality material in that.

4) I like the idea of pricing cards on the FRONT. The reason is fairness to your buyer. Everyone knows the starting point. I know that I have heard from some dealers over the years that the reason they don't price their cards is so if they buy something the collector does not say (I see you have that for "x") Well at a National; the idea of getting the ultimate steal is probably not going to work.


Regards
Riich

i agree prices shown are good, i get turned off when i priced of something needs to be looked up

There are some dealers at the National who are some of the more reasonable sellers on ebay so their tables are definitely worth looking at. That said, why would anyone spend any time at someone like 707's or Mike Wheat's table when they have the same old worn out extra high prices they sell their cards for on ebay?
To me, the excitement will come from finding cards from dealers who have never used the internet to sell their cards or have cards stashed away under the table because they aren't the "name brand" cards usually asked for by buyers. I once bought almost half a set of T207s in excellent condition because the seller had them in a box under his table because there wasn't much interest. It never hurts to ask what else they might have which is not on display. Just a thought.....

Also be prepared to find some nice deals but also be prepared to pay more than you want because certain cards will pop up that you can't find anywhere else.:o

I do love the old "I have the good stuff hidden behind the table" trick by some dealers. Nothing beats that.

If you're not going to bring out the "good stuff" at the National, when in the world are you?

Can anyone confirm or debunk the theory that dealers are willing to make better deals on Sunday because they don't want to take their inventory home with them?

It depends
 

If the dealer had a good show or not. If the dealer had a bomb of a show (that does happen) and if they are still around on Sunday -- then cash in pocket beats merchandise going back home.

Your best deals do come at the very beginning (Beginning with Tuesday set up -- through Wednesday Night) and at the very end.

But good deals do pop up all weekend. I bought many cool things for the Beckett archives in my day wandering around all weekend. Sometimes Sunday would be my best day for pickups as some dealers left so others spread out -- or new items would be on display.

Now, since my purpose in going is different --- I don't pay as much attention to that as I used to

Rich

I wish I was there with you guys.

Have a good time!

I'm bringing MAJOR Taddy cash. MAJOR.

LOL, i was wondering if anyone caught that.

sounds like you are going for some behind the table taddy's!

have a good time. Let me know how it goes.

to further expound on that Sunday comment
 

At a National -- the show is now basically a 5-6 day event. I do not know the exact costs of the tables/booths so please do not quote that as gospel.

General Expenses at show

2 Booths cost $2500 (May be high; may be low -- but this is a reasonable guesstimate)

Travel to the show -- you either fly (Chicago is a reasonably priced city to go to by air) or you are close enoiugh or crazy enough to drive. With all costs for transsportation the average is probably $400 (Again some higher, some lower)

Hotels -- yes some people stay at the Motel 6's of the world -- but assuming you stay at a mid range National hotel it is probably $125 per night when all is said and done Figure 4-5 nights and that is another $500-600

FOOD -- no matter what you do -- food is going to cost you. Even if you are reasonable (There is or was a Mickey D's not far from the show and last year in Baltimore I found a Subway,,,,now Cleveland is a different subject for that
$20 per day night -- $100 person

Misc Expenses -- and there are always those -- figure $400 for that for the week period

Thus -- you have spent $4K before selling a card.

And no that does not include the prices of any cards you sell.

So, if you hit Sunday Mrning and have taken in; let's say $2K and you realize what your expenses are; you may be the dealer that stays open to try to make Sunday sales. And then if someone has cash, you are more amenable to making sales.

Now everyone is different; but just explaining for the National about the Sunday reasons for getting or giving discounts

Rich

Leon,

If you could do me a favor while you're at the National? Tell Lichtman to quit stealing my jokes. Billy Mumphrey, the 'cock-eyed optimist' is mine.

Have an awesome time and I'm peeved that I'm absent. :( Bye!!

Fripples

*token Middle East PhD* :)

.

Hey eds10 . . .

For me, the National Show is as much for the museum quality stuff to see and talk about, as it is for finding items to purchase. I've been to seven National shows, of which I only make purchases at four shows. But even though I was shut out at three of them, I still had a fantastic time. The variety and quality of items on display, for sale, or hidden behind the counters is unbelievable. And if you happen to be an attentive listener (or even better, blessed with the gift of engaging others in conversation), the stories told by both dealers and other collectors alike, will add significantly to "the National" experience. I once had the opportunity to meet an eBay archnemesis at a National show because I overheard him telling of his conquest of an item we both were bidding on. Imagine the look on his face (and the sound of his jaw hitting the floor) when I approached him, called him by his eBay member ID, and identified myself by my eBay member ID. Priceless. Turns out he wasn't such a bad fellow, and now I have a face to go with the eBay member ID during our next eBay go-around.

If funds are short for shopping (but still can afford the $15 one-day entry fee), and if a day trip to/from Cleveland is tolerable, make plans now to attend the 2014 National show just for the opportunity to see some of the neatest collectibles in the hobby.

Personally, I hope there are a lot of Sunday discounts as that is the only day that I can attend the National.:D On the other side of this discussion, if a dealer has not had that many sales in the previous days, I could see the dealer thinking that time is money and decide to go home early.

I plagerize, therefore I am!
 

I'm expecting the majority of dealers to have their cards ridiculously overpriced...with a small % of sellers within reason...or just slightly overpriced! .

..yeah, I just stole what Peter U. said because that's what I would have written. :-)

My biggest pet peeve is the price tag on the back. People ask him, he has to get the key, open the case, mention the price and ask if you want to see it (I say 'I'm good and slink on through to the next table) and this happens so often to this dealer that by the third day, he is defeated and is rather rude and is like "you're just going to hand it back like all the rest" and he will never understand that all this could be eliminated by a) being fair or b) put the prices on the front!

DanC

I think
 

I've been to the National in Cleveland a few years ago, and some other major shows since then including a few at RMU in PGH...Here are my observations about $...

1. Most of the dealers that have survived have done so because they "buy low, sell high"--it is a very tough market w/baseball cards and so only those types have survived. I think the dealers that are "reasonable" etc about prices in general could not survive and make profit selling at eBay competitive prices.

2. The best deals are at the margins, low dollar stuff and possibly very high dollar stuff. If you go in and are building sets and cherry picking from binders, etc. you can actually get nice looking vintage singles at ok $'s. Also, if you have wads of 20's and hundreds and know the market for what you are buying you can get a quality card for a good price, although sometimes you have to walk away....Keep in mind, most good dealers know what the cards go for on eBay so they will cut you a 10%+ deal knowing what the feels are.The WORST deals though are on the mid-grade vintage stars that are priced at 80% of book.

3. Be very careful buying raw....I made the mistake recently doing so from a prominent dealer and should've know that if it was really gradeable he would've sent it in. He lied to me (I don't send everything in 'cause I have raw vintage buyers only) but I should've known better.

4. If you are willing to take a loss, you can go in with something in your collection and part with it albeit not at full market $...i.e. "I have these 10 T206 beaters, take them from me but knock of $75 from "X" card that you really want...

Example of the prices: I saw a Centennial Stamp Cobb in PSA 7; it had sold on eBay for $95 last December. I offered $150. The dealer insisted upon $200. I walked.

Just finished my first few hours at my first National.

Agreed - prices are high. Some are downright crazy. I was offered a graded T202 for $850. Recently 2 in the same grade sold on eBay...one for $405 and the other for $425. Dealers asking double the real world price is not unusual. Though I am happy to say it is not the "rule".

I talked to a few dealers who were willing to come close to the prices realized in recent auctions...close...maybe 10% higher ;).

Undoubtedly, some people will walk away saying confidently they got a "steal" on something. I saw no steals anywhere.

But I have lots more booths to visit tomorrow!


Cheers,
Blair

A rule I always follow is DO NOT wear clothing with logos of your favorite teams. I am a Marshall guy. Logic would dictate that I would want a dealer to tell me if he has something in the back, but more often I just felt like I got jacked up prices because the guy suddenly feels like his Pennington is more valuable to me than anyone else in the room. I actually got that when in about 1996 or so when Sample cards where hot, I was walking into a show and a Score rep was handing out cards. I had a Reds cap on because i was a fan when I was a boy...anyway, I walk in and the rep starts to hand me a Frank Thomas or someone who was hot and marketable, notices my reds cap and pulls it back and gives me a Joe Oliver. Thank buddy.

I was at the show today. Seemed to be less dealers than last time in Chicago. Since I'm a low end buyer, the show for me is as much a social time (meeting collectors, dealers, etc,...) as it is buying cards. Not to mention the Steve Miller Band concert downtown tomorrow night. :D

Cheapskate.

Lol.

My early opinion of doing a fly through last night for two hours.

Prices overall very high

Keep posting those reports everyone. --just trying to gauge what to expect price wise when I get there Sunday!:D:eek:

I think Ebay is going to be VERY popular this week!! I don't know about you, but I am not a fan of paying double fair market value! I am sure Levi is making a killing however. He only has to sell 10 or so cards......

Big Ben
 

Hi Ben,
Make sure you get there early on Sunday. By noon many of the dealers will be cleared out and by 2:00 most will be gone.

Rick

Thanks for the tip. We have planned to get there around 10am when the doors open. Sunday is the only time we can make it this time around. --just going to have fun and hopefully run into a good deal-- :)

I wonder if the stock market dump of the last few days will affect national sales.

I was wondering the same thing. At least it is worth a try from a negotiation standpoint. :cool:

Just for reference, a friend of mine is there with 3 booths. His total expenses for hotel etc is about 6k. He usually clears about 15-20k for the show but has turned 6 figures twice.
He has told me the National is not a great place for buyers. Example. He was at a show last weekend and off to the side has some $3 boxes with off grade stars and oddballs. He says at the national he makes it a $5 box and sells it all every year....been there more than 20 times.

prices sucked and at least half the tabless hid their prices making me work harder to find out they were overpriced. recession my butt!!

High Prices
 

The prices were high, but I thought there were some bargains out there. I got a 34goudey sgc 2 for $140, and its centered, good color/surface, sofy corners and a back wrinkle. I got a 15 cj moriarty sgc 3 for $75 w/ a great front and back staining and he threw in another $5 card. Got a beautiful rizzuto rookie for $100 graded psa 3 but better thans tons of 4's Ive seen. But I also saw a 15 cj wagner, sgc 1.5 for $3500??? Some other stuff that was sooooo high my comments were said aloud accidentally.

Hilarious bit of economics by the dealer with the Centennial Cobb stamp in a 7 grade. It's in the dealer's online store for $475; on ebay same card has a BIN for $345. Was sitting at the National gathering dust for $300. Sold in a 7 grade for $95 last December; I offered $150. Was countered with $200 and I walked. Of course, this dealer has on his online store a Dietsche Cobb (batting) in PSA 6 which allegedly sold on ebay for $4750. I have a superior PSA 6 (without a printing issue on the left border) which I purchased for $1111. I'd love to meet the 'buyer' who snagged the $4750 PSA 6 -- in a market which has come down in prices since I bought mine.

Sometimes you wonder....
 

if "dealer" really means "seller" or merely "displayer."

No offense, but $140 for a 1934 Goudey SGC 2 sounds VERY high to me!! Care to share who the card is?

sorry
 

The 34 goudey sgc was the greenberg. The most recent comparison was a psa 2.5 about 8 weeks ago that sold for $223. I think mine has better eye appeal as that one was o/c. NIce to include all the info.

Oh OK.....no, that doesn't sound bad at all then. Would love to see a scan when you return....

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts on whether its a good or bad time to list cards on ebay right after the National? My gut tells me it would be better to wait a few weeks as many potential buyers will have purchased what they need at the show. However after reading the posts about the high prices, I'm starting to think "normal" or auction prices will look pretty attractive after the prices. Any thoughts?

Bill---
 

"Normal" or fair/honest auctions will ALWAYS sell, National or no National!

Not everyone went to the national...

Pathetic
 

I spent all day there on Friday and thought it was awful. Alot of the cards I saw can be seen daily on ebay. Ridiculously overpriced cards in terrible condition. Never spent all day at a card show and saw nothing I even considered buying.
Ignorant dealers (sick of that!) and can't tell you how many don't even know their own inventory. Example: "Hi, do you have (fill in the blank)?" Dealer: "I don't know" or Hi, how much for (fill in the blank) Dealer: "this isn't my table, come back later." Ummm... NO. Where else in this country can you go to a business and they don't know what the price is or they can't tell you what they have in stock?
And then I hear, on more than 1 occasion, "oh, this is terrible, I'm not making any money" How about: 1. Customer Service, be friendly and know your product 2. charge a reasonable price (let's start by not charging 3-5X the market value) 3. Be at your table or at least train your employees.
I really would have to be desperate to attend another National.

Yes but how was the food?:D

Went to my first and last national in baltimore
 

Tried the National last year, my reaction was it was a display show. I collect mostly pre 1900 so it was slim pickings. Mostly I enjoyed the displays of the t -206 wagners and the great collection of yum yum, kbats, etc.

I graded a few old csa holders into psa and sgc so at least I accomplished something. I find the auctions more pleasurable since at least it is a true market price. After the airfare and cab rides, Airport parking I felt the $600 invested was not worth it.

Give me a nice Rea catalog and I'll stay home.

Sitting right now at Gibson's steak house (directly across the street). Excellent food. Just had the filet sliders and fries - $12. Delicious! No brainer compared to a $5 hot dog inside the show...

Plus Gibson's has free wi-fi!!! (At the show you have to pay $10 a day to access the hotspot...no need thanks to Gibson's.

Met Tony yesterday and he kindly delivered a card to me. Tony, sorry to hear your experience at the show was bad. It was nice to meet you and chat a bit!

Cheers,
Blair

$7 hot a hot dog and small pop. My son ate, I did not.
Blair, it was a pleasure meeting you. Other collectors are soooo much cordial than dealers.
Leon, stopped by your table a few times but didn't get to meet you.

Leon saw them take out the Vintage Authentics guy in handcuffs on Wednesday, so he was hiding under his table.

:D

I got a really good deal on a few t206s, and got a few post war cards, but besides that, yes a lot of tables had prices @ 1.5-2 times market value. I negotiated the best I could, and politely walked away if the price was unreasonable. That's all you can do. It was funny how many times I heard "come back Sunday and I'll sell it to you at that price!"

A few good deals...
 

Like most have already noted, a lot of prices were laughable, but having some patience and searching yielded a few good deals on e95's for me. eBay definitely has better deals, but walking the floor for two days was a blast!

Matt

Just got back from my first National. I want to thank people here for their tips about the show etc. I definitely used a lot of the tips which helped make my experience a very enjoyable one. I agree with a lot of comments on here about pricing. If the prices were not shown, I would ask the dealer about the price and if the price was the usual 1.5 to 2 times the ebay price I politely thanked the dealer and walked away. I tried to negotiate on a couple of those type of deals (priced 2 times greater than ebay) and got nowhere. That being said, after considerable walking around, I found and negotiated a nice T206 PSA 3 Cobb and ended up buying that card. Overall a very enjoyable experience. Would I go to another National. YES.. That being said, it would take a lot of convincing for me to attend more than one day.

I just rolled in from my tenth National this afternoon. Had a great time, picked up a few things and probably overpaid for some of them. My choice.

I don't think that the National is, was or will be the place for bargain hunting or even market-reflective pricing. The prices are high generally and to me it functions more as a seller's marketplace rather than a buyers. By and large most people who aren't selling junk know that most of us don't want to go home empty handed.

To me the National has become more of a planned vacation where I pick up a few things, meet up with the crew I have attended all ten with and also renew hobby acquaintances on an annual basis.

As usual prices were high but any buyer who pays the listed price just doesn't get it. Dealers mark up their cards because they can then come down some and sell the cards for prices they actually want.
As predicted, you could hear crickets at the 707 tables. Ebay too high prices, Convention too high prices. I looked at ebay a couple of times and the same guys with ridiculous BINs were at it again during the Show.
Now, that said, there were bargains. I managed to score a very nice E90-1 Cobb, a sharp E102 Matty and the best looking T207 Weaver PSA 2 in existence (formerly in a PSA 7 holder but that's a story for another day). Beckett bumped the Weaver to a 3 and it still looks undergraded but I understand the grade and it is a killer card. Thanks to Richard Masson for that one.
To me the key was to buy from 54ers you knew. They were reasonable and I bought a beautiful T213-3 PSA 7 Kelley from Ed Hans for a nice price.
I managed to find a PSA 6 "thin" Matty Domino Disc for $100 which is a real bargain. Pete Calderon sold me an E94 gold Cobb for my master set, thanks Pete! I understand he had a higher offer after he agreed by email to sell it to me. Pete is head of consignments for Heritage and I recommend people consider contacting him for future consignments as he is great to work with and a solid guy in the hobby.
On the other hand, some dealers refused to budge on their prices and I paid almost full sticker price for some Series 5 and 6 T210s. They just aren't out there anymore in nice shape, so you have to somtimes bite the bullet.
A mixed bag, but I had fun. I sold some duplicate M116s to 54ers and one made its way in to an 80 holder so I was happy about that. I sold some Home Run Kisses (non Portland guys) and helped pay for some cards.
Now back to the ebay wars :D

Hi Bob,

I agree with this...I'd guess that about 65% of my card budget was spent at the tables of active N54 participants.

I guess that begs the question whether we need to be going to the National? Not trying to cause trouble or anything, but just stating one angle. It was my first National and it was great to meet as many N54 people as I did. I admit that the time I spent talking to people was definitely more in depth than any e-mails or PMs I exchanged previously. I definitely value that.

But as much as you get bashed over the head by dealers complaining about their costs of the National...what about ours? I paid pretty close to $1500 to fly to Chicago return, rent a room for 6 nights and get a pass for all the show days. As a collector, I'm certainly not making that back on any great below-market buys at the show...

Cheers,
Blair

Hi Blair. Sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you at the National.
One of the things I really enjoy at the National and which I forgot to mention was going to a baseball game. I am stuck in the middle of no man's land as far as MLB teams go, the nearest place is the Rangers (7 hours) or the Royals or Cardinals (7 hours+). To be able to ride the train to Wrigley and see the Cubs was a great experience. I went with Tim, Mike, Jeremy and Mark and we had a great time and I really enjoyed grabbing a cold one at one of the many bars/restaurants right outside the stadium. There is so much to do at the National which doesn't involve cards although cards are always the main topic of conversation.
One odd note is that Todd S. went to the game Thursday night to see the White Sox on the south side of town (not really recommended) and no one saw him again! Hopefully he just had to leave Friday morning and is not MIA. Todd! If you are out there are you ok? :eek:

Good Lord, it's not that bad! I've been going there for 40 years and NOTHING has ever happened to me or my family (and I have 2 young children). For crying out loud, at least we've never had a fan beat to death outside the park (Dodgers/Giants ring a bell?). Wrigley is a MUCH more dangerous place considering the weirdos that hang out/live in the accompanying areas.

I named what I was willing to pay for cards and didn't budge. I walked away with 90% of the deals. But I did feel like it was a good comedy show with some of the prices being laughable. A SGC 4 Suggs for $350 LMFAO. I offered $185 which is $65 more than the last ebay card and he said the price was firm. See you in 5 yrs for a good deal:D There were a lot of good prices if you were straight with the dealers. I didn't give the excuses of "well this says this and that says that". I went in educated to my buys and bought based on knowledge and walked with a lot of good stuff. There were 3 cards I can't live without but will have to wait:( A BL, Hindu, and my SGC 7 Johnson