Net54baseball.com Forums

Net54baseball.com Forums (http://www.net54baseball.com/index.php)
-   Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Babe Ruths auto or Joe Jackson??? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=139529)

yanks12025 07-21-2011 05:27 PM

Babe Ruths auto or Joe Jackson???
 
5 Attachment(s)
Hello,
So I justed picked up this vintage baseball and it has a date of Sept. ?? 1917. Now on one panel it has Red Sox, so I was looking over the ball cause it's covered in either autos or details of a game. Well I came across some writing, which sort of looks like Ruth's autograph. But not sure if my eyes are just seeing things. Now the beginning is faded, but you can sort of see the outline in the dirt,whatever then what looks like Ruth. What do you guys think?? Thanks

First photo is where im seeing Ruth?? Now call me super crazy but doesnt the auto in photo 5 kind of look like Joe Jackson's(bottom one). And I'm not on drugs.

yanks12025 07-21-2011 05:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
1 more pic.

jcmtiger 07-21-2011 07:53 PM

You have better eyes than me, I can't make out any signature.

Joe

yanks12025 07-21-2011 08:13 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Here I circled what im talking about. I'm guessing their not, but always have to double check.

RichardSimon 07-21-2011 08:16 PM

It looks like someone wrote "Ruth" on the ball but it's not the Babe.

yanks12025 07-21-2011 08:30 PM

So Richard, guessing im crazy on the possible Jackson then?

packs 07-21-2011 08:55 PM

It was my understanding that Joe Jackson was illiterate.

GrayGhost 07-21-2011 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 910974)
It was my understanding that Joe Jackson was illiterate.

Yes, but he could "draw his name" his name has been found on some items, incl the Addie Joss game ball, and a number of legal documents. He had a lot of difficulty trying to draw his name, so Katie usually signed for him.

RichardSimon 07-22-2011 05:43 AM

The Joe looks more like Jay to me,,, the letter at the end of that looks like a y to me.

yanks12025 07-22-2011 06:38 AM

Thanks for the Help Richard, Is there anything I can use to help try reading the writing better. I tried a black light, but nothing really

murphusa 07-22-2011 06:42 AM

it's yours, keep it in your collection and impress your friends with a great story you made up on how you got the ball

Be a Halper

yanks12025 07-22-2011 07:04 AM

Jim,

At least I was right that someone at least wrote Ruth. You know gotta be sure about stuff, when it has a date in Sept 1917, around the same day of Tim Murnane Benefit Day which Ruth and Jackson were at.

aaroncc 07-22-2011 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 911015)
The Joe looks more like Jay to me,,, the letter at the end of that looks like a y to me.

I see a y also looks like it says July.

yanks12025 07-22-2011 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaroncc (Post 911034)
I see a y also looks like it says July.

I'm pretty sure there was no player named July.. And it's not a date because you can make out the last name also starts with a J.

scooter729 07-22-2011 07:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Although it would be a stretch to say it's Joe Jackson, I will say I do see what Brock is talking about there.

Here's a copy of the Joe Jackson check sold earlier this year, compared to this ball. I can see how the "e" in "Joe" looks similar, although it also could say July for all I know (which ain't much). There are some similarities there, but I don't quite think that's Shoeless Joe on there...

perezfan 07-22-2011 11:50 AM

I kinda see it on the Jackson part, anyway. The bottom bar of the "E" in "Joe" drops down pretty low in the check exemplar. I can see where a portion of the "e" is making it look like a "y".

It's still not likely Shoeless Joe, but nice to dream... when I squint just right, I can acually see it :rolleyes:

canjond 07-22-2011 11:53 AM

Ok - not that I have any thoughts on authenticity, but I can see the Joe Jackson. Well, I can totally see the "Joe", and I certainly see the J in the last name.

gnaz01 07-22-2011 12:00 PM

I have no dog in this fight either, but if you look at the sweet spot, you can see an "M" which looks VERY similar to a Christy Mathewson signed ball. I know a stretch, but to dream.......

Check it out!!

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9562224

yanks12025 07-22-2011 12:38 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I think that was a bad Jackson auto to compared to. Because one is on a ball and the other is paper. Here's one from hunts that was also signed in 1917.

Shoeless Moe 07-22-2011 12:41 PM

I see Al Jolson in the top one.

yanks12025 07-22-2011 07:00 PM

Al Jolson the singer? Couldn't find a baseball player

Kevin Keating couldnt offer any opinion cause not enough to go on.

HexsHeroes 07-23-2011 10:02 AM

Request for two more scans . . .
 
.

. . . I'm having fun with this, but a couple more scans might be useful. If you are game, please post the additional scans as requested below. I in no way consider myself skilled at signature verification, but who doesn't like to play "detective" from time to time.

Regarding this ball:

On your second scanned image, I too see lettering for Sept ?? 1917
But I would love to see another image where the area above 1917 is centered, so that I could try and make out that word. I can't tell what letter(s) preceeding and following "a" are. It does appear to be a capital "M" present too; perhaps for "M"urnane ?

On your third image, I make out a possible "th" at the right end of the second row of text. Could those last four printed letters spell Ruth ?
The also appears to be the numbers "02" at the end of the third row of print. I would love to have a better scan of the first row of letters, inorder to try and make those words out.

On your fourth image, that appears to be a signature along the left side (next to the seam). My imagination sees the letters Geo M???

On the fifth image, I initially thought the signature at the top might be ?al?? (Walter) Johnson, but I do not see enough spacing between the letters "al" and "J" to make this possible. But I do think it possible the last name could be Johnson.

Regarding your first image, I don't think that is Ruth's signature. I am only basing my opinion on the representation of the R in Ruth from this prior auction lot of a signed ball from Murnane's Benefit Game: http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=44837

Just my two cents. Hope makes us see things that may not be there. But every once in a great while, hope and actuality do meet.

yanks12025 07-23-2011 01:47 PM

Vince,
I would get you better photos, but I dropped the ball off to JSA today and let them take a look.

Mr. Zipper 07-24-2011 08:24 AM

Perhaps they'll have some sort of UV light that will help them see the faded inks.

yanks12025 08-02-2011 05:58 PM

Came across this auction and it shows what JSA can do when baseball's are very jaded. So I'm sure once i get my ball back, alot of it will be solved.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-Yankee-Team...#ht_500wt_1413

Shoeless Moe 08-02-2011 06:37 PM

wow, you are right
 
if they can see sigs on that one.......amazing.

however, it will be interesting to see what that goes for, unless u have that technology in your home, not sure it displays very well, cool that they once touched it and signed it, but with nothing visable not a ball I'd want.

Good for someone starting out. Interesting to see what it goes for. I guess $600.

glchen 08-03-2011 12:00 AM

I think if Joe Jax can somehow be authenticated, the ball will go into the thousands. He is a tough sig to get.

GrayGhost 08-03-2011 05:26 AM

Why would someone want a signed ball where you need a black light or w/e to see the sigs? For me, Id want to look at the ball at times. Good luck w you ball tho.

yanks12025 08-03-2011 06:36 AM

Gray,

But if it is Joe Jackson, you can till see part of it so it's not like the completely faded Yankee ball.

GrayGhost 08-03-2011 06:57 AM

Good point Brock. its way better than the Yankees ball in that regard.

Mr. Zipper 08-03-2011 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayGhost (Post 914040)
Why would someone want a signed ball where you need a black light or w/e to see the sigs? For me, Id want to look at the ball at times. Good luck w you ball tho.

Just create a special UV lighted display case. :D

Scott Garner 08-04-2011 07:04 AM

Be a Halper
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murphusa (Post 911025)
it's yours, keep it in your collection and impress your friends with a great story you made up on how you got the ball

be a halper

funny!! :d

yanks12025 08-16-2011 10:48 AM

UPS will be dropping the ball off tonight!!! So the wait will come to an end and we will find out what is on this ball.

GrayGhost 08-16-2011 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025 (Post 917630)
UPS will be dropping the ball off tonight!!! So the wait will come to an end and we will find out what is on this ball.

I am looking forward to finding out as well sir.:)

yanks12025 08-16-2011 03:15 PM

They couldn't offer their opinion, and guess their computers couldn't see anything.

BrandonG 08-16-2011 05:28 PM

You got my hopes up, I was really rooting for you. But then I would have been really pissed because I passed on buying the ball when it was on eBay. lol.

yanks12025 08-16-2011 05:41 PM

Well I'm upset that they couldn't do anything, yet with that Yankee ball they could when mine is in better shape.

jerseygary 08-16-2011 05:50 PM

That's too bad, I was pulling for you.

Shoeless Moe 08-16-2011 06:08 PM

Did they charge you, and if so what?

yanks12025 08-16-2011 06:31 PM

They gave me a voucher back. But guess I'll try to sell it. I may send the ball to PSA, I'm focused on proving it.

thecatspajamas 08-16-2011 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025 (Post 917768)
Well I'm upset that they couldn't do anything, yet with that Yankee ball they could when mine is in better shape.

I think it has more to do with the condition of the leather in relation to the ink of the signatures than the overall "condition" of the ball. Yours looks to have more areas where the leather is abraded, meaning in those areas the part of the leather that bore the ink is actually gone. In my limited experience with using black lights to increase visibility of signatures, it also helps if the ball is more white and does not work as well with balls that are deeply toned. I'm not sure if that holds true for other wavelengths. I'm sure that JSA did what they could, but even with their sophisticated array of lights they're not magicians. It was worth a try (well, I guess depending on how much it cost), but you have to admit it was a long shot at best.

mschwade 08-16-2011 07:08 PM

I was pulling for you too! Call me crazy, but the more and more I look at the Joe Jackson check and the ball, the more I start believing it really is it. Let's just put it this way, JSA didn't say it wasn't Shoeless Joe! ;)

yanks12025 08-16-2011 10:51 PM

Personally I'm probably biased because it's my ball, but I think it is. The Joe part matches up perfectly. Some members expressed their opinion thinking it says "July", there's no point in July being written there.

Also JSA only included one UV or what ever picture of the area, I hope they did the rest of the ball and not just were I think Joe Jackson is.

One person mentioned how maybe the lights/camera's couldn't pick it up because of the leather actually being gone. On several parts I can see the autos still.

FUBAR 08-17-2011 12:28 AM

if you look at the Leaf cut signature of Joe Jackson from this year, yours does look similar. The Ruth, unless the Babe was drunk, the R looks off no where near correct.

If all else fails, Chris Morales will authenticate it ;o)

yanks12025 08-17-2011 05:20 AM

Funny Jim..... Don't worry I wont go that route.

Then I'm also starting to think, that they may have not even noticed where I pointed Joe Jackson out. Cause the photo they included, isnt of the auto(just the same panel).

JeremyW 08-17-2011 04:08 PM

If it were me...
 
I would clarify that with Spence & then get PSA/DNA's opinion.

yanks12025 08-17-2011 04:44 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Here's a acouple photos of there letter and the image they provided. Also anyone know what their vouchers look like, cause I dont see any at all. Will call tomorrow and try calling to one of the guys.

yanks12025 08-17-2011 05:00 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Here's acouple closeups of the ball. I took a picture while I made my magnifying glass on it.

canjond 08-17-2011 08:48 PM

I'm pretty sure the voucher is the second "authentication" LOA you posted. I also have a JSA credit and my voucher is the letter that says what they examined, etc (not the letter addressed to you).

yanks12025 08-18-2011 05:33 PM

I just wanted to make mention to you guys that I have listed the ball on ebay, and mentioned a possible Joe Jackson auto. I mentioned how JSA could not offer an opinion, I mentioned how some of us agree with what I say while others feel I'm crazy. If anyone things I misrepresent the ball, please let me know. Thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1413

mdschulze 08-18-2011 08:06 PM

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your description.... I'm curious to see what it sells for!

Shoeless Moe 12-27-2011 02:24 PM

Brock - what did this sell for on Ebay?.....
 
back in Sept?

It's now being re-sold at Premier Auctions

http://www.premierauctionsonline.com...igned-Baseball

Let's see what they get.

GrayGhost 12-27-2011 02:33 PM

I see the "Jackson" but its such a rare sig and so few out there, I can't see why people would risk it. Plus, this one is beat to a bloody pulp

bn2cardz 12-27-2011 03:37 PM

Maybe it is just me but that looks like it could possibly be Jimmy Cooney. He made his debut in Sept 1917 with the Red Sox. I couldn't find any old Cooney signatures to compare to, but I am sure his auto in 1917 would not look the same as the 1980s samples I have been able to find.

I could be way off, I also am not an expert about autos. This is purely an assumption on the fact that it does look like there is a J..MY C...

yanks12025 12-27-2011 04:36 PM

It sold for alittle over $500. And i also noticed the auction the other day.

ruth-gehrig 12-27-2011 06:19 PM

Sold?:confused: Isn't the auction on going?

yanks12025 12-27-2011 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig (Post 950563)
Sold?:confused: Isn't the auction on going?

He asked what i sold it for back in September on ebay. And i replied back saying alittle over $500.

Shoeless Moe 12-27-2011 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig (Post 950563)
Sold?:confused: Isn't the auction on going?

Brock bought it on Ebay for I believe $90, re-sold it as a potential Joe Jackson signed ball for $500, now that winner has it up in the Premier Auction with a min bid of $500.

I can't see it going for much more then that, but ya never know.

And the way they have worded it as a ball signed by Joe Jackson seems a lil deceiving.

I think Brock did a nice job when he listed it, explaining exactly what it was and what the authenticators determined, but Premier is being a little dishonest.

ruth-gehrig 12-27-2011 06:33 PM

Ok got ya;)

Shoeless Moe 12-27-2011 06:54 PM

Cooney in same auction
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bn2cardz (Post 950517)
Maybe it is just me but that looks like it could possibly be Jimmy Cooney. He made his debut in Sept 1917 with the Red Sox. I couldn't find any old Cooney signatures to compare to, but I am sure his auto in 1917 would not look the same as the 1980s samples I have been able to find.

I could be way off, I also am not an expert about autos. This is purely an assumption on the fact that it does look like there is a J..MY C...


http://www.premierauctionsonline.com...per-Photograph

howard38 12-27-2011 07:12 PM

.

bn2cardz 12-27-2011 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe (Post 950577)

Yeah I saw that, but compared to other later autos it looks similar. I am wondering if an auto from a 22/23 year old in his first years in the majors would look different from one obtained later in his life.

yanks12025 12-27-2011 07:22 PM

Howard,
It sold on ebay.

HexsHeroes 12-28-2011 08:07 PM

Is this the same ball
 
.

. . . in the current Premier 1/07/2012 Auction ?

http://www.premierauctionsonline.com...igned-Baseball

bn2cardz 12-28-2011 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes (Post 950886)
.

. . . in the current Premier 1/07/2012 Auction ?

http://www.premierauctionsonline.com...igned-Baseball

Yes and it was already called out as so in an earlier post.

Shoeless Moe 12-28-2011 09:03 PM

3 people on here
 
have asked questions that were answered in the previous post or two.

It's getting funny.

yanks12025 12-28-2011 09:10 PM

Let's see how many more people will ask if it's the same ball. lol

doug.goodman 12-28-2011 09:33 PM

I'm sorry, but that Premier description is flat out dishonest.

JSA's opinion is that they can't tell who, if anybody, signed the ball. Their opinion is that it might be a transcript of the Declaration of Independence written by Walter Johnson, but they don't know.

Congrats to Brock for finding a buyer, while being honest about the ball.

Shame on Premier, although I'm sure PT Barnum would be proud.

Doug

Shoeless Moe 01-06-2012 01:14 PM

as of today
 
ends tomorrow night

up to $733 + buyers premium.

http://premierauctionsonline.com/Lot...igned-Baseball

HRBAKER 01-06-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe (Post 953469)
ends tomorrow night

up to $733 + buyers premium.

http://premierauctionsonline.com/Lot...igned-Baseball

The winner most likely will put it with their piece of toast with the Virgin Mary on it.

Bilko G 01-07-2012 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman (Post 950909)
I'm sorry, but that Premier description is flat out dishonest.

JSA's opinion is that they can't tell who, if anybody, signed the ball. Their opinion is that it might be a transcript of the Declaration of Independence written by Walter Johnson, but they don't know.

Congrats to Brock for finding a buyer, while being honest about the ball.

Shame on Premier, although I'm sure PT Barnum would be proud.

Doug


Totally agree with this post, very shady IMO.

HexsHeroes 01-07-2012 06:43 AM

Maybe it's gotten to be like instant replay . . .
 
.

. . . where in the absence of conclusive evidence (PSA-DNA, JSA opinion), the original (consignor's opinion) call stands on the field (auction company venue).ed

I've certainly have the college football bowl season this past month.

Shoeless Moe 01-07-2012 09:28 PM

Sold!
 
$1562 Wow!

Bilko G 01-07-2012 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe (Post 954055)
$1562 Wow!


GOOD GOD:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

travrosty 01-07-2012 09:57 PM

Why is a no opinion something to point to in the auction as something positive? Millions of us have no opinon on the ball. But spence's no opinion carries weight?

My prediction - you will see this ball get an LOA in the near future.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:13 PM.