1970s baseball pinbacks
 

Desperately searching for anything you guys know about these.
(longtime collector, first-time Net54'er.)
I know they were sold at ballpark concessions, and not MLB or MLBPA approved. I have only found Cubs, Red Sox, Giants, Orioles Brewers and A's examples. All of them are shot on the same style background and have a facsimilie autograph in brown (with the look of a felt tip pen). A couple of years ago i reached out to Lifson and Muchinksy, but neither had any insight. I'm interested in other players/teams you may know of, and any other background on them . . .

I don't know much about them but I also have a Glenn Beckert and Billy Williams. Who is the Cub between Pepitone and Santo? I don't have that one.

I am almost positive I have seen a Roberto Clemente button from this series before.

i just picked up Billy Williams on ebay. i also have many Red Sox, and Vida Blue is the only A's example I have. i will now obsess over the Clemente. Thanks for that!
The mystery Cub is apparently Jose Ortiz, who played 36 games for the Cubs in 1971. That clearly dates the pin, since Ortiz was in the White Sox system in 1970

Photo of Clemente Pin
 

I found this photo of the Clemente pin. It's a small picture but it's proof that it does exist.

wow. thats awesome. looks like the other one is a senator, so maybe they did do all the teams. that's what i'm trying to figure out
i just found the clemente pin on Legendary Auctions site from October 2007. it went for $385 with premium. i troll ebay for these all the time, but they appear to be very scarce

I would love to find any Minnesota Twins players from this set. I have collected Twins player buttons for quite a few years and I have never seen any Twins players from this series but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

btw that Senators pin is Denny McLain. where'd you find the image?

I'm new today and don't know the etiquette of bumping 2 1/2 year old threads :rolleyes: but I just asked about these pins in my second post. Perhaps someone knows something new from 2011? This is a strange bunch of pins without much rhyme or reason....

1970s stadium pinbacks
 

ooo-ribay I've been searching for these pins for years. All i know for certain is they were unlicensed and sold outside the ballparks in 1971. I bought the Joe Pepitone Cubs pin on the street outside Wrigley Field from a vendor that year.
The Brewers displayed a "complete set of 10" at their fanfest a few years ago, confirming the year. I have pins from Cubs, A's, Giants, Redsox, Brewers, Pirates, Senators and Orioles, with multiple samples from Cubs, Redsox and Brewers. None of the pin "experts" know anything about them. There is no checklist (or anyone else who collects them, evidently!) Since the photography is so stunning, I thought Ozzie Sweet might have shot them, but his estate told me a few years ago that is unlikely. Paul Muchinsky lists only one--Dave Bristol of the Brewers--in his book about pinbacks, with no other details. They are a true mystery!

This is the checklist of Brewers pins, provided by Mears:
Dave Bristol - Manager
Tommy Harper - 3B
Mike Hegan - 1B
Andy Kosco - LF
Skip Lockwood - P
Davey May - CF
Marty Pattin - P
Ken Sanders - P
Bill Voss - OF
Danny Walton - OF

http://collectiblescentral.com/ReadA...x?articleid=11

Yaz example
 

There are superstars and journeymen in this pin "set." All of them are hard to find. There are also variations in size (the dave bristol is smaller than most) and finish (the Santo example above has a glossy plastic on the front, and an easel back not present on any of the others i've seen).http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1309278619

Vida Blue
 

This may be O/T, but if anyone has a Vida Blue from this set, I would be interested in purchasing it for my no-hit pitcher pinback collection.
PLMK

Thanks!

Kicking myself right now...

A few years back I saw a bunch of these in a bin, a buck each or so, at a twice-annual Peddler's Faire in Coarsegold, CA.

Memorial Day is coming up again...so I'll have to head up to it this year and see if they're out there again.

Couldn't tell you who or what was there for sure, but they were definitely these, as I remember that McLain one (or some Sen) and maybe the Vida Blue.

Thanks, that would be awesome!

They appear to have been shot in a studio, and probably at the same time for each team. You can ask one of the pictured players if they remember, should one of them appear at a show to sign autographs.

The were definitely shot in a studio, using the same backdrops. They are also very well photographed--that's why I got in contact with Ozzie Sweet's biographer to see if he had anything to do with it. Dead end.
They also feature the imprint of an actual signature, reproduced primarily in brown ink (not a signature font like many modern pinbacks). The Tommy Harper pin has no signature on it.
Because of the teams involved, i'm guessing they were shot in NY, Chicago or LA, for access to teams from both leagues, and probably within the same time frame. I'm wondering if there are 10 players from each of the teams, as we no know there are for the Brewers. I have multiple players from Cubs, Brewers and Red Sox, but only single players from the A's and Giants, and have seen single players from Pirates and Senators . . .

good luck with the bin! That would be incredible. Please post anything you come across--there is little known about these pins, so the more examples we can share the better

Tom,

Someone wrote to me a while back about the origin of these pins. I did not and still don't know their origin. A good clue is the story of how they were sold by a street vendor outside the ball park. They are definitely unlicensed. Pinbacks will bedevil you with their arcane creations. I don't recall ever seeing a Yankee player in this pin design. That is not all that surprising given the Yankees were a very mediocre team in those years.

I would disagree with you about them having been shot in a studio. It seems extremely unlikely to me that whoever commissioned these pins could convince MLB players to visit a studio (and bring their uniform) to create illegal merchandise. By the 1970s considerable progress had been made in creating "layered" images, i.e., placing a carefully cropped picture of a player on top of a synthetically created background. The bright white spots around some players appear to be artificially created.

Someone who might help with the mystery of these pins would be the photograph (or maybe card) collectors. If those images were not shot in a studio, they came from somewhere. I think the creator of these pins had these photographs, cropped and layered them in a photo studio, and then found a pin making company to produce them.

Very much agree that getting the ballplayers into the studio seems unlikely. But the high quality of the photography is what makes me think it was a controlled setting. Funny you mention bringing along their uniforms--if you look closely at the Joe Pepitone pin, he's wearing his home top and his road pants!

For what it's worth, I've noticed three variations in the "1971" stadium pinbacks: Version one measures 2.25" across and has matte finish. Version two measures 3" across and also has matte finish. Version three measures 3.5" across and has glossy finish.
There is a similar style of pinback that shouldn't be mistaken for this group--they have different cropping, inferior printing, feature a different autograph printed in black, have a high gloss finish and an easel back. They also measure 3.5" across (see below for comparison of Billy Williams and Ron Santo versions)

For what it's worth, the seven 1971 Cubs stadium pinbacks I have--most are 3" and matte; two are 3.5" and glossy

The nine 1971 Redsox stadium pinbacks I have found. All are the 3.5" glossy version

Great eye! No wonder Joe is grinning.

In addition to the Senators being represented in this style pinback by Denny McLain, I believe there was also one for Frank Howard. I've unsuccessfully looked for years to find and buy the Howard version.

Here is the Clemente stadium pinback, which sold in the Legendary Auctions sale in October 2007 for $385. It's breathtaking. Their description was "Highly Visual 1960s Roberto Clemente Souvenir Pinback."

A very interesting topic. IMHO, oftentimes both the "superior" or "inferior" versions have poor cropping....either too much and unequal background or not enough background.

The Mays comes both with and without facsimile sig.

Picked up several Brewers 1971 stadium pinback examples on ebay. All measure 2.25" across with matte finish.

Boog powell
 

Just picked up another example of Baltimore Orioles 1971 stadium pinback. Boog Powell joins Frank Robinson on the list. Are there others?

I have a Brooks Robinson from this set.

some information
 

Hi all,

I know the origin of the pins!! But I don't recall the whole story off the top of my head. The guy who took the photos (and I believe they were a controlled setting (not sure about in a studio)) was a professional team photographer (also forget which team). Their short supply I believe is attributed to their lack of licensing. There are prints that were made from the original negatives (which STILL exist and are owned by the original photographers nephew) who runs a photo studio. They are SCARCE! I own a Clemente(pin and print), Mays, Gaylord Perry, Denny McClain. I owned a Rose print. My time is CRAZY tight right now, but I will try to get back here to fill in the blanks when I find my notes. I was chasing the origin of these pins for years and finally hit pay dirt ~2 years ago. Hope that helps.

-Howard

Post a pic, please. That's outstanding news!

Howard, that scenario sounds just about right; but now i have a million questions. I've been on the same search for information. Post whatever you know as soon as you can!
tom

Post a picture of the Brooks pin if you can ...

An ebay seller recently told me a similar story, right down to time being crazy tight. That person asked for me to give him a month and get back with him. I did, but got no response. I wonder if that was Howard. I'm as eager as Tom to find out more info!

Sorry it's not better quality photo but short on time.

Attachment 149535

For this ^^^ and the fact we got Scott Garner turned on to his Vida Blue, there have been two Blues on ebay recently (I have a permanent search for a different Blue pinback). I think the first pic is the 3.5" variety.

Here's the 2 I picked up on ebay a while back. I missed out on a Frank Robinson and Boog Powell. The seller also had a Tom Seaver.

They're cool. I wish we could figure out the real story. Need to get Springpin "on it."

Pretty simple design, but I really do like these. Some great players represented.

Still looking for the Frank Howard - Senators version.

Rob,

Your comment about me tracing down the story behind these pins raises another dimension in being a pinback detective. I will say for the record that Howard and his connection is the only way this story will ever be known.

All the sleuthing on pins that I have ever done involved trying to tie together scattered clues from the past. I recall one person even asking me, "Why would anyone care about such stuff?" My only answer was, "I don't know, but I do."

The new dimension in this case pertains to legal issues---the selling of licensed images. This is a pinback story that not only is not known, but perhaps some people may wish to have it remain unknown. By now I believe the statute of limitations may have expired, or perhaps more simply, no one in MLB today cares what happened 40 years ago. Then again, maybe MLB might want to make this photographer a poster child for those who defy them. I think winning the trust of this person is critical, along with perhaps the assurance of anonymity in telling the story.

By the way, I learned a lesson about these licensing laws about 10 years ago. My local minor league team hosted the league all-star game. I am friends with the GM, and asked if I could have made a 3.5" pin that listed all the teams in the league, plus some information about the all-star game itself. He said that would be great, but I could not sell them. The illegality is not the making of the merchandise, but the selling of it. So I ordered a batch of 50 pins, one for each player, one for each team GM, and a few other people. I recall it costs me about $100. I remember being a real SOB with the pinmaker, demanding the precise placement of images on the pin, and the right pattern of coloring. All minor league logos are licensed as well. As such, I did not violate the licensing laws because I did not sell the item, but the pinmaker did for selling the item to me.

I would agree, these HAVE to be from 1971...of the 39 pins mentioned or shown, all the players are in the "right" uniform for 1971. :p

The McLain with the Senators also must be from 1971.

I picked up a Johnny Bench photo version of the button years ago. It appears to be vintage. I'm not sure if these photos were made available to the players to respond to fan letters.

I've been looking for the Johnny Bench button. Let me know if anyone has one for sale.

Phil

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...psjdeanvi2.jpg

Great photo Big Red. Would love to find the Orioles player versions.

Always good to see more info and examples added to this thread. Wish we could get to the bottom of who took the photos and who produced the pinback buttons.

:o

Hey Mike-

This thread was primarily about the mostly red, blue or green background pins like the Bench. There's a discussion about all kinds of pinbacks (including what I call the "black box" pins like your Seaver) over here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=pinback (page 14)

Not trying to be an ass! :p
Rob

Not an ass at all Rob, my bad completely... I wasn't paying attention as well as I should have prior to posting.

more 1971 stadium pinbacks
 

these were posted elsewhere on the forum just aggregating them here--have not seen the Palmer before.
and another example of the larger photos, as seen over Vera Clemente's shoulder.
Recently contacted the Baseball Hall of Fame and Sports Collectors Daily for examples or info, but both sources said they weren't familiar with the pins. search goes on

Orioles
 

Can you take another picture of the Brooks pin when you have an opportunity since I see a bunch of other O's pins surrounding "the greatest third baseman of all time"? Love to see those other O's pins!

I would think it is safe to say this one could be a bit over priced?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-S...QAAOSwHQ9WUUwb

At that price, I want free shipping!

Hoochie, Mama! At that price can I buy multiples? :p

Sorry for taking so long guys
 

HI guys

1) I've been going through a separation and divorce for 2 years now and have not had the time I usually devote here.
2) I am the ebay seller offering the Clemente pin. Multiples can not be bought at any price as these pins in my experience are that scarce. I own the only 2 Clemente's I have ever seen. The only reason I am offering it for sale at all is to help fund #1 :( I hope I sell other items to raise the needed funds.
3) As far as the back story on the pins. Due to some of the potential issues mentioned in the quote above and the persons desire for privacy, I will not be using names. Parts of the story I am piecing together from 1 and 2 parties away from the source who led me there. Here goes:

The images were taken by a professional sports team photographer. Unclear if the images were done in studio or elsewhere, but the images were all originals. The photographer knew many of the ballplayers through association with the team he was photographer for. There was intention/discussion/plans, etc of getting a license. A second hand part of the story was that the person trusted to get the license gambled and lost the money that was to be used for the license. In any case, no license was ever secured. Distribution or lack thereof is a bit puzzling - I know an earlier post said he remembers them being sold outside a stadium - it is the only time I have heard that. A small batch of pins were made in advance of securing the license. I have been told (third hand)that the photographer gave them out to friends and family. The original photographer communicated to at least one person I spoke to that he was not allowed to sell the pins without a license. I have a small print of the Clemente. A large Clemente print 18x24 (This is almost certainly the same image from behind Vera's head - shown in an earlier post) sold in a Lelands auction back in 2007 (see image - clearly from the same shoot, but slightly different image - check the bat). I spoke directly with the family member of the original photographer who apparently still owns the negatives. He was very suspect of my jubilation and questions. He really didn't shed much light except confirm he has the negatives, confirm the "licensing issue", and asked not to be contacted. It seems there will remain more questions than answers about this issue.

It would be great if someone would take charge of compiling a checklist. Anyone have time, want to work on that?

I own: Clemente, Mays, McClain, Gaylord Perry. I owned a Pete Rose photo/"pin proof".

These pins are easily discernible by the high quality of the Player image set against a color background that fades to white in its center.

Hope that helps.

Howard

First of all, Howard, sorry if we were having fun with your price on the Clemente pin. I'm not sure you'll get it, but good luck. I had actually scribbled down a list, earlier, from this thread. Here's what I came up with:

Cubs - Pepitone, Santo, Williams, Hands, Popovich, Ortiz, Beckert, Jenkins

Red Sox - Scott, Conigliaro, Kennedy, Petrocelli, Josephson, Griffin, Culp, Yaz, Aparicio

Orioles - Powell, B. Robinson, F. Robinson, Palmer

Brewers - May, Bristol, Walton, Saunders, Harper, Hogan, Koslo, Loockwood, Pattin, Joss

Senators - McClain and Howard (rumored)

Reds - Rose and Bench photo proofs seen, but not actual pins.

Mays - Giants

Blue - A's

Clemente - Pirates

Seaver - Mets

Perry - Giants? (rumored)

Could be as many as 36 or 37, with definitely more when you count the variations in size, pose, finish and/or whether they have the facsimile autograph.

checklist and Clemente
 

No worries on the fun with the Clemente pin. I understand based on what other similar pins have sold for that the price seems astronomical. I know the story behind them and the likelihood that no more than a handful of any player exist. I have seen only 2 Clemente's in over 25 years of collecting (and own both currently). I have sold too many items in the past for way less than their known scarcity dictated(imo). I have found that eventually someone who really knows how scarce certain items and want to add them to their collections is willing to pay for them. I'll either have an incredibly scarce pin remain in my collection or get what I believe to be a fair price for it.

As a point of information on the checklist - I never saw a finished pin of the Rose - only a proof/photo. Did someone else report owning or seeing a Rose pin?

No, I think you're right. I revised the list to reflect the Bench and Rose photo "proofs."

Is Gaylord Perry pictured as a GIANT? Would you mind posting a picture? If you have any thoughts of selling, please PM me.

Guess I'm getting the last laugh
 

So the Clemente is sold. I have attached pictures of the Clemente with and without autograph - the plot thickens.

WOW!! :eek: Congrats on getting your price.

Good for you, Howard!

How about a picture of the Perry?

coming....not so soon.
 

I am not sure where I put the Perry. I definitely have it. I will post when I find it.

When you find it, you might want to sell it to me. ;)

I might
 

:cool:

I just came across this photo of Pirate coach Frank Oceak in a SABR article. http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/0d29600d I can't imagine Frank was destined to be on a pinback. So perhaps the "photo proofs" were really just photos never destined to be pinbacks? The Oceak photo was provided for the article "courtesy of the Pittsburgh Pirates". Perhaps this photographer was a Pirate team photographer?

Very interesting
 

I heard something about a dinner back in the early 70's at which there were some blowups of Clemente (and perhaps other Pirates?). Supposedly those images still exist somewhere. The photographer was not the Pirates team photographer - Les Banos was the team photographer.

The Rose "proof" that I had was small and square - approximately "pin size". The Clemente print I have is larger - I think 3x5. Whoever has the Bench - what are the measurements?

I'm now wondering about the background colors, too. Did the photographer have pinkish, blue, green, etc. backdrops or were colors somehow added after the photos were taken in front of a, say, white background?

Bench is not mine, but judging from the fingerprint in the lower right, I'm gonna guess 4x6 or 5x7.

I bought my Joe Pepitone pin at Wrigley Field in 1971--I can't recall whether it was inside the ballpark or at a stand outside the park, but i DO recall purchasing it from a concessions stand after a game. That's what got me started on this damn thing in the first place.
About the backgrounds--it's highly unlikely that the backgrounds were retouched to alter the colors. The "technology" was too limited back then, and given the odd nature of this product i doubt the creator would have invested the time and effort to alter the backgrounds via composite or retouching. I do think they were shot against a colored background (a "sweep" in photo terms).
i've always wondered if the photographer got players as they came through his town, shot in a studio setting with multiple backdrop sweeps available (that's standard for commercial photo studios--they typically have dozens on hand), but everyone seems to be shot in their "home" jerseys, and it's unlikely that teams would have brought home uniforms with them on the road.
The Pepitone pin shows him wearing road pants and home jersey. Maybe these were shot during spring training (very likely) in either FLA or AZ . . . or both

Billy C. Pin
 

Hi Guys:

I just picked up the Billy Conigliaro pin from this super tough set. I will be posting it on the B/S/T forum.

Sorry for the bad photo!

PM me if interested.

Fred

Here is a 3" Don Kessinger. I have seen the Ernie Banks pin from this set but I don't have any photos of it. I also have the 3.5" versions of Glenn Beckert and Joe Pepitone.

at long last, here is the Ernie Banks pin. 3" this is the only copy i've seen after years of wondering!

Congrats Tom!

Bump. I still want to see the Gaylord Perry. I have an ebay search for it but still don't know if it really exists.

beautiful pins
 

I would love to see a scan on Seaver. Only one mets pin? I would imagine they would make few especially after winning the pennant in 1969.

Nice stuff and thread!

Here's the super rare Friars Cub pin using the Willie Mays image from this series.

Hammered? Oh, yeah. Happy to have it? Oh, yeah.

FAScINATING STUFF... is there a more modern 80s Giants or other Pinback thread?

Not per se, but 50+ pages of pin info here and links to some other pin threads, within.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=166056

Thanks I will post my meager stuff... maybe one you dont have (but I doubt it):D

Clemente pic
 

stumbled upon this just now in a 2006 Mastro auction catalog. maybe the same item in Howard's earlier post. Different take than the one used in the pin but maybe the same shoot? Who knows