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T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY....updated
In a another thread the subject of centering on the Green portrait Cobb cards came up. I stated if centering is important, then the collector
should avoid the PIEDMONT 150 version of this card. I've observed that approx. 95 % of the Green Cobb cards with the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center to its top border (as my Cobb, shown here). Most of the other green Cobb's with PIEDMONT 350, or SOVEREIGN 150, or SWEET CAPORAL 150 or 350, or OLD MILL will be found centered. Note....SOVEREIGN 350 does not exist. Listed below are links to 9 of the PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb's currently on ebay....8 are of these Cobb's are off-center and one is somewhat centered. We'll start this survey with these 9 and we'll include mine. How about including your Green Cobb in this survey ? 9 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) 1 = PIEDMONT 150 (somewhat centered) 0 = PIEDMONT 150 (centered) <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ap150greencobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> ......\.......... PIEDMONT 150 ........../ Ebay listing of PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb cards........ PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb (off-center to top border) http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Ty-Cob...-/220288300436 http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Ty-Cobb-Por...-/130413105728 http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Ty-...-/130497217597 http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Ty-Cob...-/220552474347 http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Tobacc...-/370464979329 http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-TY-COB...-/190512374081 http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Piedmont-Ty...-/320650424267 http://cgi.ebay.com/1090-t206-TY-COB...-/110493841784 PIEDMONT 150 (somewhat centered) http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-TY-COB...-/220743079596 So guys, show us your Green Cobb's....any back is welcomed. Thanks, TED Z |
Ted,
Here's a Sweet Cap 350 that I owned until recently...well centered I'd say. Don't have any Piedmonts to contribute to the survey, but it's an interesting phenomenon that I hadn't heard of before. Brian http://i.ebayimg.com/16/!CCsJfNQBWk~...EpJS!~~0_3.JPG |
Chalk up another off-center
Here's mine, which is a Piedmont 150 back:
http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/us186324.jpg |
Ted,
Once again leading statement insinuating you have seen 100% of all Green Cobb’s. A dozen on eBay or even 40 here is not a total sum of a card or collecting market. Contrary to your thoughts Ted the hobby is beyond and has been beyond that of the Net54 members. If you were to poll me on my find of T206’s (1000+ cards) as a kid I would have told you Sweet Cap was the most common as most of them were SC. In my experience that wouldn’t have been false either but it’s not a sum of an issue or the collecting community’s experience. Take the back survey scarcity list Jim R did. Even Jim stated after years of research that the final list was based on his personal experience. While the list had merit and for the most part was solid once you got to number 15 on the list anything above that could change per collector based upon his or hers collecting experience. Nobody is challenging that a larger majority of P150 Cobb’s come off center. What I am calling you out on is this arbitrary number that you pull from nowhere and claim as fact. A survey here isn’t going to clear up or prove your statements either. Unless you pool all Green Cobb’s in a room one can’t make statements like the below unless they add the following prior to the comments below “In my experience”, “from what I have seen” or “In my opinion”. "Approximately 95 % of the Green Cobb cards that have the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center as mine is (shown here)." “I've observed that approx. 95 % of the Green Cobb cards with the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center to its top border (as my Cobb, shown here).” Here’s another P150 that is centered more…that’s 2 out of 10 currently right now on eBay not over dozens of year of collecting that’s already more than 5% Ted right now today on the eBay. :confused: http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...uge/150qus.jpg http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Piedmont-Ty...item4aa8412fcb http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-T-206-...item230f26a5f1 http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-PIEDMONT-TY...item1c1a3edef5 http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-TY-COB...item33655016ac Ted I stand behind my comments seen here… http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=134335 You have yet to address them and in your usual self proclaimed T206 expert role and traditional Ted Z bull headed fashion ignore other advanced collectors inputs for pursuit of your own glory. Nobody is saying that these cards are not found OC most of the time. What I am saying is you can’t just go around making educated guesses and presenting them as fact. Just because you believe in a theory or have experienced something as a collector doesn’t mean that is the standard in which all cards fall now under no matter how many times you type it or survey it. I find all this rather amusing Ted as little as about 5 years ago you were asking Joe P (RIP) what back his Doyle variation had. Now today you're the Net54 T206 expert? Ted I’m telling you this board is going to your head…I still love ya but I can see how folks butt heads with you on these topics. :) You really only tend to see your side. Cheers, John P.S. We can debate more over a beer and that sweet AB460 set in Oakes can’t wait to see that. I’ll give you credit an AB460 set certainly puts you up there on T206 hero status has to be a first. Now if we can just get you to not put everything as fact. :) |
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Ted
no scanner cobb green sc 150 off center cobb green sc ?(paper loss) off center drew |
While it may be somewhat helpful to start out by looking on eBay, it may
skew your results. Most of those green port. Cobbs on eBay will likely have been on eBay for some time now, thus being of the "less desirable" variety (ie. off center, weak corners for the grade, etc). You'd have a hard time finding a nicely centered card amond the slew of "buy it now" lots that now dominate that site, regardless of back. Still, I find this survey interesting, and will jump at every opportunity to post a scan of one of my cards. :) This may be the first "centered" Piedmont 150 to take part in this survey, although some may deem it "somewhat centered", depending on your mood. ;) http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3...encobbdual.jpg |
I've not seen 100% of the green Cobb cards. No one has. Not even someone who worked at American Litho, I'd think.
But I have seen a few. And I've had my eyes open and I've been paying some attention to certain old ball cards. It sure seems to me that an unusually high number of green Cobbs have that centering shift. Bunches of them... And even if I've not seen 100% of them, it's still the truth. And I don't think the eBay cards skew the results. Price is a factor. It isn't just ugly cards that stay on eBay for a long time. Cards with a high price do, relative to what they are, ugly or not. It's about the money. |
whoops... nevermind :) thought I had found another one on eBay
that wasn't on the original list. |
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Heres mine, looks good to me. Piedmont 150 back.
Joe |
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"jcmtiger" That is the best looking Cobb I have ever seen! Wow thanks for showing, look at the huge borders on that card glad to see one escaped the knife, thanks again for posting. |
Joe- wow! I have never seen a green cobb with borders like that! Email me or call me for a deal! Thanks-kevin
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Joe==Wow! That big border Cobb is as good as it gets.
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Center question
For the Cobb cards that are either high or low from center are there names from the card above or below visible could the cards indicate a common placement at the top or bottom of the sheet ?
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This the most centered Green Cobb I have. In fact, the pin hole seems to be almost dead center :p
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Posting centered green Cobbs doesn't prove much of anything other than there are centered Cobbs. Well I can see that it might prove something about the folks posting them...
What would be interesting would be to see scans of lots of green Cobbs, bunches of them. And when they are shown, it will show that lots of them are off center. 95% might be high, but a great percentage of them are off center. And printing a few that aren't... well, I've already mentioned the two things that could prove. |
Although it might seem redundant by now, I'd also like to express my
amazement at the beauty of Joe's big-bordered Cobb. It almost looks like an E card. Incredible! (thanks for posting the scan) |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
Thanks guys for your inputs, the results of this survey will be updated tomorrow. Some really nice looking green Cobb's on display here.
TED Z |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
John McDaniel
Lets start with this comment of yours........ " Nobody is challenging that a larger majority of P150 Cobb’s come off center. What I am calling you out on is this arbitrary number that you pull from nowhere and claim as fact. A survey here isn’t going to clear up or prove your statements either. " FYI....I started collecting T206's in 1980 (when Bill Heitman's book came out). In the 31 years since....I've put together FIVE near complete T206 sets [521 cards....520 cards....all-Piedmont (519 cards)....all-Sovereign (408 cards)....and an all-Sweet Caporal Factory 30 (467 cards)]. In the process, I observed and recorded a lot of information regarding certain patterns in the T206's. So, your comment .... "ARBITRARY NUMBER THAT YOU PULL FROM NOWHERE" ....is so full of horse-crap that it shows that you really don't know from what you are talking about. But, I do know who is feeding you this crap. And, this surprises me since I thought you were a strong-willed man who wasn't swayed by capricious gossip. Furthermore, this comment of yours is most laughable for it is not a Wonka original, but a comment fed to you from we both know who. Who has taken it out of context, since it was a private telephone conversation between Joe Pelaez and me........ " I find all this rather amusing Ted as little as about 5 years ago you were asking Joe P (RIP) what back his Doyle variation had. " Again FYI......I simply asked Joe Pelaez about his Joe Doyle card since at that time a Doyle error card with a POLAR BEAR back had been PSA graded. I knew that the Doyle error was printed with the PIEDMONT 350 back when Bill Huggins had found one back in 1986. So, I was just trying to confirm what I already knew in light of this graded fake Doyle card. A simple phone call to me regarding this scenario; and, I would've clarified it for you. Instead, once again you bought the bull-crap that was fed to you by others in order to discredit me. I guess that you must be their "mouth-piece" ? But, now you are the one looking like a fool for repeating such a fallacy. And, don't try to deny this....because this very comment of yours reveals to me exactly who is behind this vendetta. If you are going to go public on this forum with these accusations (fed to you from certain people who don't know what the freakin' facts are), then I have lost all respect for you. I thought you were above this mud-slinging "bull-crap". At least you could have given me the courtesy to discuss such matters with me, before airing them out in this thread. MY CONVERSATION WITH YOU ENDS RIGHT HERE............ Incidently, if anyone is interested in the "back-story" on what has transpired here, you can email me at...... tedzan11@comcast.net TED Z |
Thanks for the nice comments on my Green Cobb. I bought the Green, the Bat off and the Bat on from the same seller about 20-25 years ago. I still have the paperwork, not in hand right now.
Joe |
Wow !!!
Hi Joe-
I'd also like to say that your Green Cobb is for sure the nicest example I've ever seen !!! That is a beauty !!! :eek: Stunning !!! Also love everyone else's examples also....I can't wait to get one of my own :D Sincerely, Clayton |
Ted,
I just got finished watching the roast of Donald J. Trump. I thought to myself wow could there be anyone with a bigger ego who is more removed from reality by spending hours telling everyone around them how smart they are and in the process truly believe their own hype. Then I come here and read you post and my question is answered. :rolleyes: Ted you and I have talked cards many times on the phone we discussed Joe’s card many times even in person when we rode up to the Levy’s house together in my car with Scott M ring a bell. :confused: As for what you have collected since when and have all these sets blah..blah..blah..yes Ted you are a god and all of us other collectors are idiots. Oh please Ted don’t beat up on little ol’ me I don’t know nothing about no baseball cards. (Please save the Ted’s greatest hit list for somebody who’s buying it.) However since you want to make it more personal lets… For the record my prior posts which prompted this blast from you were simply about you pulling or making numbers from thin air on Green Cobb’s. But let’s go ahead and talk shop on other stuff since you seem inclined to throw down tonight. Ted I have watched you talk to fellow collectors who dare oppose your collecting POV’s or wacky theories with snide shots and outright condensing attitude. Folks who simply say they don’t agree with your thoughts are brushed off. The poor folks who present solid arguments to the contrary of you point of view are labeled idiots or morons privately or in a roundabout way right here in print. Case in point my observations on your 95% number proves I know nothing about T206's....right...thanks I guess... In fact for the most part the only guys who don’t question every drop that comes out of your brain and spilled into this forum are the ones that are too afraid too or have been blasted by you or don’t know any better. BTW where did a lot if not the bulk of you knowledge come from...oh that's right other collectors like myself, Art M, Scott R, Jim R, Dan M, Tim C the list goes on and on... You expect everyone here to pay you respect on each nugget of info you toss in print. However you don’t offer half of the collectors here the same courtesy. In fact lets talk about how you really view most of the folks on here shall we? That's the least we can do as you rally for thier support. :mad: Here’s another question you will skip over and a good one for the readers as well. Remember the phone calls to me asking for support to help you wrangle in the idiots on here Ted each time somebody made the mistake to not agree with you on a post? You know the ones where your like Wonka you have to help me blah..blah..blah.. Or Ted did you forget about the call to me this past month about trying to help you get Dan McKee back on your good side. Or perhaps you forgot about the whole one hour phone call to me where you threw Jeremy & Jim R under the bus in an elaborate conspiracy against you. My god your ego is immense Ted J. Trump! Nobody has filled me with a vendetta or placed a hit on you oh my lord don’t flatter yourself. Ted also be careful up there on the cross it can be really high hate to see you fall. I also don’t need anyone to email personally so I can spin an offline political agenda to keep people liking me vs. you etc. At the end of the day I come here to talk cards and post pics or share from my collection with others. I even enjoy the good card debate once in awhile. If folks like me on here great if they don’t I can live with that rain or shine I can live without the support or constant reassurances of fellow Net54 members telling me how great I am…can you Ted? Ted I’m also done with this conversation not because I deem it so like you have. But I’m going to get back to cards I’d say we would take this offline but I’ll pass. Everything is a conspiracy with you..and you have lost respect for me yawn etc. whatever Ted I never was looking for your respect or admiration to begin with. The only conspiracy here Ted I see is your obvious one against courtesy.What was such a simple thing to do you couldn’t manage or have yet to manage. Which was to simply say "I disagree with you John and I’ll stick to my 95%number but I see your POV in that unless I’ve seen them all perhaps my sampling of a single card is not a collective for the entire population of said card and 95% is at best a guess." No Ted you went right to lets prove me right by posting a sampling of a handful of Green Cobb’s from eBay and folks here. :) Just like you saying get yourself a Green Cobb Hindu backed card if you want a centered Cobb was testing us not a mistake or typo on your behalf. :rolleyes: I guess it only makes since as a god you incapable of mistakes. John |
Wow.
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Nice borders on that Cobb :D
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Japan ain't the only place having a meltdown. I enjoy reading John and Ted's contributions on this board. But this trainwreck should be taken out behind the school.
Incidentally, Our only greenie is an off-center Pied/350 beater. |
Tsaiko
Thanks for your input.
Can you please identify the back of your green Cobb ? Thanks again, TED Z |
Sorry, I assumed this was for P150.
I've got three more (all P150), but the two that are graded are in the safety box and for some reason I can't find front scans of them:( Next time I visit the box, I'll scan them and if they are centered better, I'll post. Man, Joe, your "big bordered Cobb" is not only amazing, but I can't recall any T206, that I have at least, having that much border on the top and the bottom. |
Tsaiko
Thank you very much.
TED Z |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
Green Cobb survey....updated
14 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) 1 == PIEDMONT 150 (somewhat centered) 3 == PIEDMONT 150 (centered) 0 == PIEDMONT 350 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (off-center) 6 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (centered) 3 == SWEET CAPORAL 350 (centered) 1 == SWEET CAPORAL ? (off-center) Thanks .... Brian, Erick, Dean, Cat, Drew, Chuck, Joe, Scott, Tsaiko, and the Net54 readers (who emailed) for all your inputs. TED Z |
Hi Ted,
My Green Cobb is an SC150/25 and is well-centered. Scot |
My green P150 is oc.
JimB |
I recently upgraded (very slightly :) ) my P150 Green Cobb with another P150 Green Cobb.
Both are off center with more bottom border. Rob |
greenie
Ted,my cobb is a P150 and off-center.
all the best, ole friend barry |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
Green Cobb survey ...... updated 3/16
22 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) ................ 22/25 = 88 % 3 == PIEDMONT 150 (centered) 1 == PIEDMONT 150 (somewhat centered) 2 == PIEDMONT 350 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (off-center) 7 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (centered) 3 == SWEET CAPORAL 350 (centered) 1 == SWEET CAPORAL ? (off-center) Thanks .... Steve, Scot, Jim, Rob, Barry and the Net54 readers (who emailed) for all your inputs. TED Z |
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Actually Ted - right now you're at 22/26 = 85%
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Mine a Piedmont 150 and centered, just ignore the rounding ;)
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p.../cobbgreen.jpg |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
Thanks David W and Dave H for your inputs. They will be tallied into the survey on the next update later today.
TED Z |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ap150greencobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
Green Cobb survey ................... updated 3/17 24 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) ..................... 24/28 = 86 % 4 == PIEDMONT 150 (centered) 2 == PIEDMONT 350 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (off-center) 7 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (centered) 3 == SWEET CAPORAL 350 (centered) 2 == SWEET CAPORAL ? (off-center) Thanks .... David, Dave and two Net54 readers (who emailed) for all your inputs. TED Z |
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I'd call mine (Piedmont 150) at least somewhat centered. Back is clean and centered perfectly. Buy the card, not the holder...by the way. Certainly one of the nicer looking 1's I've seen. Story for a different thread I suppose :)
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I am looking for green cobbs that are graded and off centered. Will offer top price. Thanks-kevin
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Green Cobb
Hi Ted,
I have a PSA 5 Green Cobb Piedmont 150. It is off-center, like most of the others. Good survey. |
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k1.../T206cobbs.jpg
Sweet Cap 150 Looks like this is a tough one to find off centered. Sucks I got stuck with the off centered . JK cool thread! |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY....updated
Several of us T206 "dinosaurs" got together for an old-fashioned swap meet here in Pennsylvania this past weekend. I got six new inputs
to this survey from this group. Furthermore, I obtained 15 inputs from calls to fellow T206 collectors (who are mostly not Net54 members, but are known of by some Net54er's). I'll name eight of them .... John Dorsey, Tom Faith, Don Flewelling, Dave Hayward, Bob Krause, Greg Lacivta, Mark Macrae, Ralph Triplette, etc. Lest, a certain party here (with an agenda) chimes in and accuses me of...."ARBITRARILY PUL- LING OUT NAMES FROM NOWHERE". Here's how I acquired my first Cobb. In 1982, at a small BB card auction in Toms River (NJ) I won a green Cobb for an unbelievably low bid. Most at this auction were interested in the Pete Rose rookie and the 1982 Topps black ink variations. This Cobb was a PIEDMONT 150, it was off-center, and in VG condition. I sold this Cobb at the Willow Grove show, and bought an Excellent Cobb from Wayne Miller. The Cobb I got from Wayne was a PIEDMONT 150, and it too was off-center (to its top border). My curiosity was aroused, so I have been tracking green Cobb's since the early 1980's. I have seen several 100's of the green Cobb cards. The PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAPORAL green Cobb's are usually centered. I cannot vouch for the OLD MILL version, as I've seen very few of them. Look, we can continue to run this survey to "infinity"....or, when we run out of green Cobb's....whichever occurs first :) The result will still be the same..approximately 9 out of every 10 green Cobb's (with PIEDMONT 150 backs) will be off-center to its top border. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/xt206greencobbp150.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/xgreencobbp150bk.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Green Cobb survey .................... updated 3/22 39 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) ...................... 39/45 = 87 % 6 == PIEDMONT 150 (centered) 4 == PIEDMONT 350 (centered) 1 == PIEDMONT 350 (off-center) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (centered) 1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (off-center) 9 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (centered) 1 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (off-center) 5 == SWEET CAPORAL 350 (centered) 2 == SWEET CAPORAL ? (off-center) 1 == OLD MILL (centered) TED Z |
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I used the confidence interval calculator and assumed a population of 10K P150 Green Cobbs (note that the value doesn't change even if I go up to 100K). |
Ted, thanks for this information. I also have an off centered green cobb piedmont 150 card. I think your sampling proves that the majority are off centered.
Question I have is why? Did they run a few sheets of just Cobb cards as he was a well known player then? Or did the position of Cobb on the sheet was on the top row? If so, then everyone on the top row should also be not centered. Curious as to the why. |
Ted, I count 12 P150's in this thread centered now 13 with Peter's FWIW you only count six....I guess that's ok though..no need to get bogged down with math.
"Lest, a certain party here (with an agenda)" Ted you can say my name it's ok. As stated before no agenda just calling it as I see it. You continue to miss the point I have pointed out this entire time I think you only want to hear what you want to hear. But there is no need to see my views afterall I'm just some rookie and your the expert. John |
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There's only one post here authored by Peter and he has clearly stated that his PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb is...." OFF-CENTER ". Watch it....your "agenda" is blinding you to the facts. T |
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Rock solid Ted, I guess my agenda has caused you to miss count your own survey..but I bet you already know you missed them...I guess you were just testing me again. LOL http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...whenpebble.jpg "you must snatch the Cobb OC card from my hands, 95% of rookies such as yourself fail...look it up I did a survey" "the facts", theres a phrase you tend to say a bit much...but ok here are some facts there are 12 P150's in this thread alone, of which you only counted 6 so going off %'s you missed 50% of the cards pictured in your own survey! But that still didn't stop you from posting your % numbers and claiming them as fact. That is exactly the whole point Ted. Tossing numbers around and or taking selective info and tweaking it to fit your needs is not objective and will never make something fact. I'm sure I'm alone on this but that's ok by me. Having a handfull of cards posted here or talked about in collecting cirlces doesn't prove anything. Also your own, or someone elses collecting experiance with a certain card is also not a summary of a card and it's place in the hobby. To draw % from that and base that as fact or gospel is ripe for error. As this very survey shows you said 95% off all Cobb's are OC I said how did you some to that summary? So unless exactly 95% of all Cobb's shown here are OC then this very post which was to prove your point actually proves mine. I never said the majority of Green Cobb's were not OC. In fact I said most are, even non P150 Cobb's tend to come OC. You were the one who said 95% of all P150 Cobbs were OC, which by this very own thread they are not. That means your numbers by thier very nature were incorrect. Cheers, John |
John and Ted
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This stuff is supposed to be fun. Please take it easy on each other. Next time we all meet you guys can leg wrestle or something.....See ya'll at Oaks.... |
Amen, Leon.
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I've never owned a green Cobb. I have never noticed the off center tendencies with the card. This started out as an informative thread about that. And it devolved a bit. When I saw 95% I translated that to 'a bunch', 'most', 'generally', and 'about all'. It matters not whether it's 95% dead on, or merely eighty-something percent, or what. Most of the cards are skewed so they have a short top margin. I had not noticed that. Now I know it.
I've also learned a bit about some un-necessarily sharp remarks, we'd all been better off without those. Please. |
T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY....updated
"ALMOST" or "SOMEWHAT" centered Cobb's are not counted.
Only the obviously CENTERED cards with the PIEDMONT 150 back are considered. And so far, they are........ 2 ...... John McDaniel 1 ...... Chuck W (CW) 1 ...... Joe (jcmtiger) 1 ...... Tsaiko 1 ...... Dave H (toppcat) ---- 6 |
Hey Frank......
I will quote Billy Joel
I DIDN'T START THIS FIRE ! ! TED Z |
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Frank, I agree I think most collectors of T206's have found Cobb's (Green) to be OC for the most part. Nobody has ever argued that, where this went wrong is when Ted chimed in on the past thread and posted a % number as fact of which I made the mistake of asking how he came to such a number...and then made the bigger mistake of not agreeing with him. Oh and forget the fact he claimed one should by a Hindu Green Cobb if one would want a centered Green Cobb, that in itself was insinuating that he has seen Hindu backed Green Cobb's centered, but when corrected it was an elaborate test by Ted to see if we were awake. Cheers, John |
Hey Frank......et al
Has anyone on this forum been a stronger advocate that American Litho. NEVER printed any T206 (and T205) Cobb's with a HINDU back than me ? ? ? ?
Do I have to dig up all my threads these past two years to prove this ? How quickly some forget ! TED Z |
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Peter
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Unfortunately, to date, no uncut sheets of T206's have been found. Regards, TED Z |
I own 4 green Cobbs, I have one on ebay which I think you people addressed here already.
To say Ted's survey has proved anything is ridiculous. You people have no clue how many huge collections of raw vintage cards are in old timers collections. I visited a gentleman who has 3 T206 sets less the biggies, a T205 set and a T207 set. He doesn't even collect cards, he is a memorabilia giant. There are 3 green's right there that you have no clue are centered or not. If there are 300 or 500 green Cobbs out in the hobby, and Ted has survey'd 30, is that a good testing environment? Can you take the 30 and say the results cover the remaining hundreds that you didn't see? I say no. Is it possible? Of course Ted's survey may cover the majority but it is also very possible that it doesn't. If Ted survey'd half of them or 3/4s then ok, that is proof. But these little wannabe surveys here on this board are not proving anything with the population of any fairly common cards in the hobby. Has Ted done a good job? Of course he has, he loves it and is passionate about it. But does his work prove anything? Be realistic folks. It is neat to see the results Ted comes up with during these mini surveys but as far as proof positive, nah. |
I would imagine, Dan, Wonka, Rob D, and Jim (where ever you are), that when you see my name beside this thread on the front page, you can predict what I've posted. That's what I did when I saw Rob and then Dan.
Ted didn't base his opinion on two and a half dozen cards seen here. He based it on 30 plus years of attentive collecting, which is longer than many here have been out of diapers. What you've done, Dan, is characterize what Ted said in a way so you can take a stab at it. Post #21 is Ted's, and it explains his experience in handling thousands of T206s. I'd think he's sold more T206's than half of the folks on this board have ever seen. Ted's thread does prove something, that most of those green Cobbs with a Piedmont 150 back are off center. When you guys jump the old timers, you sometimes run them away for a while, or for good. The jumping adds nothing to the board. The departure of the guys that really know about cards and share that knowledge, that definitely subtracts from it. When a turd lands in a cesspool, it obviously isn't alone. I don't completely agree with part of Ted's initial post, where he says if centering is important then avoid Piedmont 150 green Cobbs... I'd love to have a worn, off center green Cobb. So PEACE, guys. |
Actually Frank, I gave Ted a very nice compliment that you have seemed to miss. That he does a good job and is passionate about his work.
I think you are mistaken that Ted has handled and sold thousands of T206's. Hundreds maybe but the Ted I remember at the Willow Grove shows and onward was a late 1940s guru. He knew the Bowman, Bond Bread, Bowman PCL issues inside and out. We would all crawl to him for late 40s expertise. Ted always had a few T206s at the shows but usually just a junk box of them which he likes to sell at $10 to $20 each. I have picked through that box for many years, it is like treasure hunting. I also do not appreciate you telling me my thinking for my post, to stab at him. You are wrong once again sir. I was merely trying to point out that a test group of a small amount of anything is not necessarily a good indication of the entire group. If my post chases anyone away, then shame on them. If you will notice, I am not on here any more but maybe you feel I have nothing to bring to the board. I have been chased away by the lack of collecting the way I know it from the 1970s and 80s and the new theme the hobby has taken. So, I will run away again, enjoy your board full of self proclaimed experts. |
Mathematically speaking...
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Plug in any numbers you want in the "Find Confidence Interval" calculator here: http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm |
Erick,
Mathematically speaking...math sort of goes out the window when in this very thread 12 examples are posted and only 6 are counted...I'm no Stephen Hawking but I would guess that tweaks the results a bit.... John |
Here's another P150> The lipstick on the forehead variation - j/k.
Looking at the back scans of the two that are graded (that are in the box), it at least appears that one has a tall top border, but I will get to those, eventually, and post scans. |
Dan McKee
Thanks for the compliment "ole buddy". But, your memory of Willow Grove (and Ft Washington) days is either failing or very "selective".
In the 1980's I mainly collected Tobacco cards. I didn't start selling them till the mid-1990's. Barry Sloate will attest to this, as I sold him my 521 card (includes Magie) T206 set. This was the 1st set I put together. Also, I sold him my complete T205 and T207 sets. At that same time at Ft Washington, I sold Mike Wheat my E90-1 set (120 cards complete with an Ex Joe Jackson). I broke up one of two 1933 Goudey sets (239 cards) that I put together. Bill McAvoy bought the Babe Ruth's. The 2nd set I sold to Alan Rosen. Mr Mint also bought my 1934 Goudey set and my 2nd 1941 Play Ball set. In 2001, I started on my 2nd T206 set and completed this 520-card set by 2004. I broke up this T206 set in 2005 and started an all-PIEDMONT set. Dave Czuba bought about 1/2 the cards from my 2nd set. I completed a 518-card all PIEDMONT T206 set in 2006. Then, I started an all SOVEREIGN T206 set, which I completed when I acquired the 408th card (red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back). Am I making you "dizzy" Dan ? There's more....I started and near completed an all SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set of 467 cards. Wagner and Plank were the only cards missing from this one. Dan....let's do the math together .... 521 + 520 + 518 + 408 + 467 = 2434 T206 cards. And, that does not include all my duplicates over the years. Sorry to correct you guy, but this statement of yours is sheer horse-crap fiction .... please try to get the facts straight........ " I think you are mistaken that Ted has handled and sold thousands of T206's. Hundreds maybe " Dan .... I really find it very disappointing that you have become part of this "discredit Ted" campaign that has been instigated by Jim Rivera. Oh....and, I forgot to mention the large group of George C. Miller cards you bought from me in 1996....that was quite a hoot. I have some fine memories of you and your Dad going back to the Willow Grove days. Tis a shame that its all come down to this vendetta that you guys are conjuring up. TED Z |
I hate to get off topic here, but Joe that is one gorgeous Cobb.
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Frank I find it ironic that you would lead off your post with commentary on people making wrong assumptions.
I also based my questioning of Ted’s arbitrary number of 95% based on my collecting experience does my collecting experience have any less merit? I have been collecting T206’s since I was about 12 or so going a little over 24+ years now. I too have had my fair share of these cards experienced large finds and large buys. I have never felt the need to hang my trophy list here in order to chase folks away from having an opinion. Regardless of having thousands or just a dozen there is no reason somebody can’t present a valid argument or theory, or question those of a more experienced collector. That very reasoning is assumptive in nature which seems to bother you. But as with most folks it only bothers them when it’s being done to them not the other way around. This whole I’ve done this and you haven’t is childish and counterproductive. http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...titled-1_2.jpg Sadly Ted plays this card with folks who have serious knowledge or the very folks Ted gets his knowledge from in many cases. What Ted fails to mention in a lot of these posts is where this info he posts comes from. It comes from some of the very community and members that he now seems to have issue with. This thread/topic didn’t devolve due anyone other than Ted, and this topic was not started to answer any hobby question or gain insight. http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ize/trex_1.jpg It was started to prove Ted right in some twisted way from the questioning he got via me on the other post. Here are the facts Ted made a snap comment that all Piedmont 150 green Cobb’s are OC of which he can’t prove definitively. When I asked where did you come up with that number, and unless you’ve seen them all how can you issue such a statement. Instead of simply stating you know what Wonka you have a point I would say based on my experience I would think a large number of them are OC and saying a definitive 95% are OC is a bit snap in judgment. But Ted doesn’t want to do that if you look back at the thread where this started I made a post saying Cobb green is a tough card to find centered. It was Ted that had to come along with the one up if you will. In fact a one up that was riddled with wrong information. Of which mistake number one (Cobb Green Hindu) was chalked up to a test for us little folks and the other is now trying to be proved via a 30+ card survey with cards within the survey not even being counted. LOL The whole thing is laughable. This is not the first time folks this has happened with Ted for the readers who think I’m just picking on poor Ted or have been told there is some offline conspiracy against him. He did this with an AUTH Plank where he busted onto this board stating that the card was no good due to having a wrong factory, which he was wrong about. He did this with his Polar Bear list in which he left off Demmitt & O’Hara but when he was corrected by Barry Sloate, his response was…you guessed it he was testing us again. ;) http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...whenpebble.jpg The examples go on and on…with Ted. This whole Cobb topic I have had a range of emotion on. I went from confusion “why would Ted say that”. Too frustration “why is he missing or dodging my simple point”. Finally I just feel sad for Ted almost embarrassed I disagree with him and call him out as he would to me or anyone else and it’s chalked up to an elaborate conspiracy against him. Against him how? What motive would we have….dethrone him as the resident self proclaimed T206 expert on Net 54…no offense to anybody or me but that’s like being the tallest midget. :) http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...dybuilder2.jpg I’m sure he would like to paint me as a bad guy but the sad thing is Ted knows me. We’ve shared hours of phone calls, lunches, road trips heck I even hung around to help him pack up after one of the card shows in PA. For Ted….. Ted I’m sure you’re reading this. I find it odd you are so resolute in your quest to be right on every tid bit you post on here that you would act like you do towards the very folks who have been more than fair to you. There is no need to lie to us, don’t think you have want to tell everyone you’ve been honest go ahead at least perhaps the folks who don’t know any better will buy it. But deep down inside you know you have been dishonest to me & others even very recently in a very elaborate and wrong way. BTW did Jim Rivera make you lie to several folks on here at length and make up a ridiculous story recently in private to both Dan and I? You know exactly what I’m talking about but I'm not going to air that here.:mad: http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...e/Paranoia.jpg Ted there is no need to discredit you with many folks on here you’ve done that yourself already with your past and recent actions, and only someone with something to hide would be so paranoid as to turn a disagreement on a topic into a covert campaign against them. :confused: Cheers, John |
'childish'... childish would be those images, and the use of them. I'm done.
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Frank really….shame you’ve been a real rock in this thread too. Well you know kids today what are ya gonna do?
Frank Wakefield, March 15 (post #9): I've not seen 100% of the green Cobb cards. No one has. Not even someone who worked at American Litho, I'd think. But I have seen a few. And I've had my eyes open and I've been paying some attention to certain old ball cards. It sure seems to me that an unusually high number of green Cobbs have that centering shift. Bunches of them... And even if I've not seen 100% of them, it's still the truth. Frank Wakefield, today (post #54): I've never owned a green Cobb. I have never noticed the off center tendencies with the card. This started out as an informative thread about that. And it devolved a bit. When I saw 95% I translated that to 'a bunch', 'most', 'generally', and 'about all'. It matters not whether it's 95% dead on, or merely eighty-something percent, or what. Most of the cards are skewed so they have a short top margin. I had not noticed that. Now I know it. So, to recap: About a week ago it sure seemed to you Frank and you noticed "that an unusually high number of green Cobb’s have that centering shift." But today, you have never noticed the off center tendencies with the card until Ted posted this informative thread. :confused: Credit goes to another board member for sending me this jewel…see Ted it's not that hard to be honest and give credit. :) |
Yea Ted I must agree, now that I think about it, handling thousands of T206s is no real feat. I just looked around the house and with my set and the left overs of 3 large buys, I think I have over 2000 here now. So yes, I would agree with Frank that you have easily handled thousands.
I don't remember you being known for T cards but that may be on me as you say. You may want to re-read my post, I am not discrediting you, I just don't think a test group of 1% of any item gives proof positive results of the majority of a large group. Not just cards, anything, I was trying to general. Am I one of the sheep here that believes everything you state? No, but I think you do a good job and try hard. I just sometimes think you go to extremes to make your theories look more correct but no harm. I will look forward to seeing you at the Oaks, stop by and say hello or I will stop over if you like. And stop bringing up the George C Millers, I think they were all in poor condition and you charged me mint prices :). Take care Ted dan |
ok but
Ok but if Ted said only 94% were off center would that have calmed the waters?
Seriously, it does seem the great majority of those Cobbs mentioned are OC top to bottom. Anyone in their right mind would agree with that and has always noticed it, I have and I don't even collect the darned things. As far as what percentage, is it that big of a deal, really? |
As Leon said, if Ted simply stated the majority of green Cobbs are off-center, nobody would have disputed it. But since he cited a specific percentage, he set himself up to be challenged. Does the exact percentage make any difference? Why don't we agree most of them are o/c and move on.
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Exactly Tim. The number was too specific and was unnecessary for the argument. There's no doubt that a great many of them are off center.
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My original comment from the Demmit, O’Hara and Cobb thread.
Wonka: “All 3 are tough in there own way..finding a centered Green Cobb is a lot tougher than one would think.” Ted Z: Green Cobb's centering is a function of it's T-back Approximately 95 % of the Green Cobb cards that have the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center as mine is (shown here). If centering of this T206 Cobb is important to you, then look for a PIEDMONT 350, or SOVEREIGN 150, or SWEET CAPORAL 150/350, or OLD MILL,or Brown HINDU..........Note..SOVEREIGN 350 does not exist. Wonka: Ted, In regards to Green Cobb not so sure on the 95% number perhaps you meant for the most part or in your experience unless you have had 100% of all P150 Cobb’s... As for Brown Hindu unless you found something we all should know about including yourself I wouldn't know if they are centered or not as I’m pretty sure they don’t exist. I even think you agree… Ted Z: Hey Wonka….. YOU PASSED THE TEST ! I threw that "Brown HINDU" Cobb out there to see how long it would take before someone caught me on this? I took 2 hrs and 19 mins.....very slow response. __________________________________________________ _______________ Barry nobody has ever doubted that Green Cobb's are OC in fact I will say that even other brand backs from the 150 are found more towards the top etc. not just P150. But we start tossing numbers around on here as fact and then these start showing up in our daily collecting lives. Next time one of you goes to buy a centered Cobb or sees one on ebay the seller will be asking an even higher premium as 95% of all of them are OC. :) Tim is exactly correct with my issue here and it was my only issue, that is until Ted started making it more personal and claming there was a covert attempt by fellow members to destroy him... :confused: John |
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Yes a small test group, that was just an example. I am not to worried about the percentage whether it be 1% or 95%.
You caught my drift Ted's statement of the majority could be correct but with such a small testing group, it could also be incorrect. So I completely disagree with Leon and Barry on this. That is the 2nd time in years I disagreed with Barry and the 1st time I disagreed with Leon. So I have disagreed with Barry and Leon 16% of the 84% of the 5% of the time. |
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