JSA Story on Autographalert.com
 

Fascinating story today on autographalert.com today about taking items JSA had already certified as genuine autographs, replacing them with Christopher Morales certificates and then submitting them to JSA again.

The article also implies that regular clients to JSA get special treatment and the benefit of the doubt when submitting items.

They story is worth a read.

Wow
 

Glad that I decided at the beginning of my collecting career (25 years ago) not to get involved in autographs. Not taking sides in this story at all...but it proves that there is no exact science except getting it signed in person or by by someone who you trust implicitly.

By the way the link to the story is:

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

Jeff

Here's the link http://autographalert.com/news.html

Collecting autographs is in the same category as game used equipment and uniforms...one huge leap of faith. How embarrassing this must be for JSA...far worse than the Sal Bando incident.

All I can say is 'wow.'

True story: I once brought two items to be authenticated by Spence (then with PSA/DNA) at the Philly show when it was in Fort Washington, Pa.

The items were 500 HR 8X10 photos and single balls signed by "Original 11" at one of the historic Atlantic City shows in the 80s.

The 11 balls, which are in their own frame, and 11 photos, which are in their own huge frame, were obtained in person and signed at the same A.C. show.

The balls passed. The photos failed.

Third party authenticating is a joke. I have gotten things personally signed and wanted to sell them but people are so obsessed with JSA and PSA they won't buy your items without one of there certs so I have gotten them authenticated only to have them come back fake. The best way is to get items signed in person so you know they are real and these guys flunk them doesn't leave you much choice selling other than you hope the buyer trust you. The latest was a Harold Baines 3x5 card I got signed in person and made a White Sox display that Mears auctioned off last month and JSA said it was fake. Who is going to fake a Baines 3x5 autograph. You can buy real ones all day long on Ebay for less than 5.00. Unreal.

Keith Janosky

That's pretty depressing.

Goes to show that not only does Coach's Corner and Morales ruin the autograph market with their fakes, but good autographs are probably being taken off the legitimate autograph market at an astounding clip every time they even come into contact with them.

Not to make excuses for Spence.

It's definitely not something I haven't suspected for quite some time.

My big issue with this whole debacle is that, has anyone ever seen an item authenticated by the authenticating firm behind this story?

P.A.A.S? I would like to see them tested and see how they fare.

It is embarrasing, but not surprising that JSA would simply fail something because Morales liked it. Morales just has that reputation of turning a $1,000 item into $100, it seems with the prices that the Coach get.

Regards,

Larry

The story right under the JSA story about John Reznikoff is a good read too...I've seen in auction catalogs his name attached to just about every lock of hair that gets auctioned off...how in the world does someone go about authenticating hair??? Wouldn't you have to do a DNA test and compare with a known relative?

Larry,

If that's the case then they are evaluating a COA from Morales and not a signature. Sure maybe someone has an ax to grind here but this really is the same cautionary tale over and over again. The value in any COA is that there is a perception in a "market" that it has value, to me it has never been anything more than a paid-for best guess. When you look at it like that should it surprise anyone if it's good one time and not the next, personalities aside.

Jeff

That's the problem anymore. authenticating used to be on all there certs the item was authenticated as genuine now it's just there opinion. Hell anyone can give an opinion on anything and the bad thing is they get paid for a GUESS and then wave all responsibility because it's an opinion. Wish I could go to my job everyday and just give an opinion if I'm doing my job right or wrong. I think I would be fired. As long as people pay for this service they'll continue to stay around.

Keith Janosky

I can't say that I'm surprised.

Obviously he is not doing his due diligence and examining the autograph. I think some authenticators are just spreading themselves too thin with their expertise. I can see someone being an expert on a few autographs but it seems ridiculous to be able to autheticate everything. I wonder what his response was to this. Did the person doing this test inform him at that time?

On a nother note I always felt you could get some PSA graded cards and re-submit them to prove you don't get a Gem Mint 10 grade twice! But who would take the chance of cracking out a 10 and re-submitting it....

That's what I was saying in my last post, they don't have to take the time to examine anything at any length anymore because it's just an opinion. If they are swamped with orders and spreding them self thin they might just look at something quick and not worry about it since again it's just an opinion and don't have to worry if it's right or wrong since they won't get sued because once again it's just an opinion.

keith Janosky

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

Comment
 

Would love to hear a JSA response.........

Who cares what they have to say? STOP LISTENING TO THEM!

Cares?
 

I"m not sure I care but sure would be entertaining...

Funny your avatar is an autographed baseball.....Thats entertaining as well

You miss my point completely. I was quoting others on this thread. I am, if I do say so myself, an educated autograph collector--2011 will mark fifty years of collecting.

(And that 1927 Yankees baseball is one of the centerpieces of my collection.)

Jsa
 

Probably did, but I am easily entertained.....

No need to attack me David...I am allowed my opinion. My statement was about a decision I made at the beginning of my collecting career. I felt uncomfortable making large financial decisions about autographs that I was not present at when they were signed. I decided that I could do without that part of the hobby. If you are 100% comfortable with your knowledge and experience, more power to you. I just didn't want to deal with the doubt.

Jeff

If you know what you are doing, autographs are as safe as any other hobby where lots of money changes hand. Cards on the other hand can be bleached, trimmed, glue removed, paper added, etc. At least any potential issues with an autograph are out there to be seen by the naked eye! With any hobby, you buy from people you trust who will stand behind the item forever and that is your comfort, not the 3rd party!

You know, Jeff, every time there's a posting about some "authenticator's" massive f*ck-up, someone (or two, or three...) will post about how happy he is not getting involved with autographs, and implying, of course, that anyone who does is a fool. It's gotten real old, real quickly.
Autographic material is one of the most important--if not the most important--historical reference. We are all indebted to those, throughout the centuries, who have preserved it, passed it on, and made it available to museums, archives, and universities.
The idea that it's only good "if I've seen it signed myself," is as patently absurd as if those on the other side of this board were saying a card is only good "if I've seen it printed myself."
If, by your own admission you know very little about something, it may behoove you to refrain from publicly commenting about it.

Would you ever sell it without a cert from JSA or PSA?

If I were to sell it, absolutely. No one who knows anything about autographs, would doubt its authenticity. And if someone wasn't interested because Jimmy Spence hadn't vetted it, so be it.
BTW, I was, years ago, offered $60,000 for it by a collector--with no cert. I didn't sell it. It will pass to my children.

For the vast majority buying and selling autographs has just come down to buying and selling certs. It seems like the actual autograph doesn't mean much anymore, its the cert that means everything. If its certified authentic by PSA or JSA its money in the bank it seems.

Unfortunately, you're right. However, everyone should remember that third-party authentication is an expert opinion only. If one expects zero errors, they will be disappointed. However, I would like to point out that, while there have been unexcusable (and hopefully rare) "false positives" in the past, these cases are "false negatives," and I would prefer authentication companies to err on that side if at all.

I will echo an earlier poster and lament the far-reaching effect that Morales, STAT, and Coaches Corner are having on the hobby. Absolutely terrible.

In the end, while I have seen many shout "buy the card, not the holder" when it comes to grading, we have to remember to do the same with autos, although legitimacy itself is far less subjective than any grade.

David, I do not want to make this personal, but you apparently do. I have collected sports memorabilia for 25 years, not quite your 50 years but enough to know a thing or 2 about the hobby. I never implied anything at all. I know many autograph collectors that I have a great deal of respect for, and I have had the same debate with them.

Also, where did I write that I didn't know anything about autographs? I just said that I made the decision to not include them in my collection. Sorry, but I think that your foolish if you think that you can tell with 100 percent certainty that each and every autograph is real (if you haven't seen it signed in front of you). If you weren't there, you can't guarantee it with 100% certainty, sorry. You might be 99.99% sure, but you can't guarantee it, period. With clubhouse signatures, secretarial and spouse signers, not to mention devious forgers, there are no 100 percent guarantees. That is my opinion, not about you directly (or other knowledgeable collectors) but about that segment of the hobby in general.

BTW, If you haven't read the book Operation Bullpen, do yourself a favor and pick it up.

Jeff

Fine. Then don't collect. Everyone get's fooled sometime. The more you know, though, the less likely that is. I'll settle for being right 99.99% of the time. ;-)
Of course, there is 100% certainty with your "sports ephemera," isn't there?
And I have read it, Jeff. Anyone fooled by Greg Marino's garbage knew nothing about autographs.

David,

I wish you good luck with your collecting endeavors.

Jeff

As Voltaire said, "Chance (luck) favors the prepared mind."
But thanks, anyway.

They are not the problem, and they've had no effect on the hobby, IMHO.
No "collector" buys their garbage. No one who is a member here, for example, is fooled by their crap.
The problem, again, IMO, is the total reliance placed upon the opinions of the "legitimate" authenticators, to the exclusion of all else. (Especially to the work required to develop and advance one's own expertise.)

David -Take a look at some of the non ebay auction sites. Of course the people on this board would not buy from those sites but there is an effect on the hobby.
I have been told more than a few times that "I won't collect autographs anymore" by people who have been burned. They were collecting, they were trying to learn, but they got burnt. End of their story.

Richard, how did you manage to get to where you are today without PSA and JSA?
If I decide tonight that I'd like to collect, say, Rolex wristwatches, and then, knowing nothing about them, buy one from a vendor on E. 65th Street, and find out later I was burned, whose fault is it?
I submit it would be mine, and not the fault of the guy who was more than happy to take my money.

I spent a lot of time educating myself.
I did not have the $$ that PSA had to advertise themselves into the position they now occupy.

That's my point Richard. You became an expert. You didn't need their help to do it; they didn't even exist at the time.
They are unnecessary, and, in fact, have done much more harm than good.

David- I've always respected your knowledge in this hobby, and know you are an expert when it comes to Yankees memorabilia. And I know you put alot of time and effort into getting that knowledge.

But it's hard for me to look at the autograph hobby as anything but a very dangerous place to hang out. I never did collect autographs, and was never crazy about selling them. And I found this article truly frightening.

The more disturbing aspect of this article to me is the fact that this site(for the second time that I know of) has attempted to paint C.Morales in a positive light.

But the only items they sent in were from Morales, so where is the proof that they will reject everybody?

The "reliable" outfits have been rubber stamping Morales and others stuff fake for years, The screwup by JSA imo was by not refusing to accept the items for examination.

It seems to me that they found on several of these items 10-12 reasons to question their authenticity where before they hadn't, same piece different result. Even when you factor out the personalities and the agendas - pretty eye opening.

Thanks very much for the kind words, Barry.
It's only frightening, though, if you rely on third party authenticators.

I have to add my 2 cents. I have been collecting autographs for 25 years getting most of mine form the source - in person - so I know what I got. I do sell at times and found that if you have a JSA certification, your profit opportunity is greater. While I tell people I got the autograph myself, that is not good enough since there crooks on ebay that say the same thing. So, I bring some every now and then to Sports Shows and get stickers on them. I have found they do get some wrong. But again, it is only their opinion - I know what right or wrong (since I get the myself). Any expert in any field can occasionly get it wrong - just need to be right more times than wrong :). But I just wanted to say - "it is what it is". If you are collecting autographs (just like anything else), rely on your own knowledge - learn and be your own expert. You will enjoy the hobby more.

-Ray

Jsa
 

If you know what you are looking for these are easy to spot in almost all cases. Hell I cant even tell you if I signed something I change my signing so much. to claim an autographs authenticity is easier to determine than cards almost makes me pi$$ my pants laughing.

Also i would much rather a company reject good stuff as bad than grade bad stuff as good.

My two cents...Every collecting genre has their "trusted-experts". Whether it be cards, coins, stamps or comics. A place of trust. While it's wonderful to go the AuctionAlert way and stand up and say "if you trust a third party authenticator, you are a fool", but what would happen if "the-big-two" went down? What would that mean for the hobby as all these "anti-two" companies and crooked authenticators would remain? Certain uncertainty.

If you go through a reputable auction catalog that has been authenticated "by-the-big-two", the smartest people in the business will probably shake his/her head at certain items saying "how can that be passed?", but a large majority of the items in the catalog will be authenticated with the correct decision.

The only problem is that the item/s you are most offended by will sell for $75,000, while if it was authenticated by a "pass-anything-authenticator", it would have only brought $800, giving too much power to the reputable authenticator. Mathewson ball, anyone?

Autographs are unlike any collecting genre as all you need to begin your business is a pen and blank piece of paper and that's it, and people have absolutely ruined the joy for many (including myself who stopped collecting ten years ago) because it's so simple to make a decent living being a thief as the government is too busy with other things.

It's all about opinions, but can there ever be a perfect authenticating firm? No. An authenticating firm that can get it right even 90% of the time? Doubt it. Will there always be doubters and will "good items fail" and "bad items pass"? Of course.

In closing...the people who educate themselves have always had the advantage in anything in life and if you have chosen to live and breath this business (as many do and have and I have), you know what is going on.

DanC

David- Ideally, every autograph collector should study the field in detail and become his own expert in determining authenticity. But in the collecting world not everybody wants to do this. Some prefer to pay an expert a fee to authenticate for them. That's why, for example, people hire a broker to sell their home rather than do it themselves; they don't want to have to deal with all the legal hurdles and want the professional to take care of it for them.

But if it turns out that the experts are not so good at what they do, it's going to drive many collectors out of the hobby. That's just the nature of the beast.

Authentication errors
 

The article is not just pointing out authentication errors--no one expects 100% accuracy--but the ONE-SIDEDNESS of one authenticator's errors. Every authenticator has an error rate, and if you are really conducting analyses these errors should be randomly distributed. The whole point of the article is that the errors here are not randomly distributed, but distorted by bias (everything from one source is good, everything from another source is bad).

I would bet you will find similar biases in card grading. I have never seen a grading population report, but I would bet it does not fit a normal (i.e., bell curve) distribution. My hunch is that large, favored customers cause grade inflation at the highest grades.

The question for anyone buying anything (and particularly autographs, because the rate of fraud is higher) is this: can you survive your mistakes?

Well put Dan and Barry! It's no different than any field -housing, medical, insurance, our leaders and the political system- and we come to depend on the expertise of those who went through the channels (and don't these guys just compare signatures for a living?) and if we find out that they are anything but experts, that's when the issues start and opinions begin.

AA tested Spence and Spence failed and showed how ignorant his outfit really is. Did AA test PSA/DNA and if AA did, did they pass and this wasn't mentioned? And if JSA and PSA/DNA went down, would there be another company courageous enough to be experts and what would become of all these items in collections with their certificates if judged a second time to be suspect? This is all a shame and yet another black eye for the hobby and you can count me as a former collector as well.

Regards,

Larry

No truer statement could be made, imo. I bet if I went to get the Gretzky/McNall T206 Wagner graded it would come back without a number :D

I saw this story a long time ago on another web site. This is very old news. Look at the dates on the coa's and rejection letters. Why is this dredged up know? Could this have anything to do with a current slander law suit. Just asking.

It was a set-up, and tantamount to entrapment. The site that exposed this matter clearly has an axe to grind with JSA and PSA. They have a clear agenda and are seeking vengeance.

Granted, JSA should have taken the time to research the auto's and not automatically reject them. But rest assured that the vast number of things done right by JSA/PSA will never appear on this accusatory site.

Why this behavior is deemed defendable by anyone here is troubling... Perhaps because you have items authenticated by these schysters and you're concerned yours' may not be legit. Well, most of us have 'em -myself included. Regardless, it's irrelevant.

If theyre innocent, let these millionaires speak up... I expect the silence to be deafening.

Entrapment? someone mentioned. Funny, sexual predators, Johns' and bait-car victims use that very defense.

Gee... How did we ever manage before JSA and PSA? Better throw out all I acquired before the enlightenment.

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

Barry, when I was a young child, and would complain about what my mother served for dinner, she would say in her droll Jewish sarcastic way, "Good. More for me." She wasn't going to fight with me--this is dinner. Take it or leave it.

I feel the same way about the "collectors" you speak of. If they're not willing to educate themselves, it's fine with me if they find something else to acquire--and I mean acquire rather than collect.

Fewer people to fight with come auction time.

Of course, I'm a collector, and not a dealer ;-)

There are plenty of collectors who don't educate themselves. This is a hobby known for impulsive buying.

It is unrealistic to suggest that there is no place for third party experts in a collecting field. If everyone had to be an expert before starting a collection there'd be about 10 collectors in the world because the vast majority of people simply would not devote the time and resources to learning in advance of buying that first item. As is the case with many things in life, many people do not have the time to become expert-level at autographs but still would like to own an item signed by a childhood hero or other meaningful figure, so there is a place for an authenticator in the collecting world.

There is no way that an authenticator will get it right every time--no human ever does. What I take away from the article as the troubling conclusion--if true--is that JSA did not fairly analyze the items in question.

As for false negatives and false positives, I am more comfortable with an expert who says he can't tell from time to time because autographs ain't manufactured items--they vary widely depending on the situation. I've shown these before but it bears repeating here: I got the first of these Lewis autographs in person, a friend got the second one at a different event:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ze/Lewis_1.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...credential.jpg

I seriously doubt that an authenticator could deem them both genuine but they are.

It is not necessary to become an expert in the field you are collecting.
Gaining some knowledge is certainly extremely important but if you find people to buy from that are totally trustworthy that would be your most important step if you don't make yourself into an expert.
To me that is the key. I have worked very hard to maintain a good reputation in this business and many of my customers have come to me because of a recommendation from a friend.
Find good dealers to buy from, guys who have done the hard work already, and you will be ok.
Those guys are out there, just ask some collecting friends for recommendations. Believe me, there are a number of dealers out there that you can buy from and not have to give your money to 3rd party authenticators after your purchase.

I agree. Knowing who you are buying from is a key. There are many knowledgeable and honest sellers out there. Besides, being able to show you bought the item from a well known and reputable seller will only help the resale value.

GAI/Mike Baker
 

One guy I would love to hear from is Mike Baker. He signed off (literally) on thousands of pieces of Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Willie Mays and others when he was a "authenticator (I use that term loosely)" for the now defunct GAI. That garbage has helped to dilute the hobby and bring values on legitimate autographed memorabilia way down. Compounding the problem is that the now defunct GAI is still listed as a Ebay prequalified authenticator. They (GAI) should be dropped from Ebay's list of prequalified authenticators immediately. Those who know absolutely nothing about autographs "depend" on the fact that Ebay lists them as a prequalified authenticator and then there are others (those who know the GAI garbage is bad) who take advantage of the fact that GAI is a Ebay prequalified authenticator. The problem, of course, is that (in my humble opinion) 80% of those who buy and sell autographs on Ebay don't have a clue. And that's where the knowledge of autographs helps. It helps to be able to trust certain people but always be cautious. We know that stuff is bad and we stay away from it, but the rest of the population relies on the fact that Ebay lists them as "someone to trust when it comes to autographs." I don't see the big deal in removing the now defunct GAI from that list. Or at the very least, ban the GAI certs with Mike Baker's name. The biggest problem that I see is that those people who should be reading this thread have no idea of its existence. I'd love to hear from you, Mr. Baker. Below is one of the thousands that you certed. Please, Mr. Baker, show is what exemplars you used to cert the below autographs.

Attachment 33196

Attachment 33197

And another major problem with the autograph hobby is that it isn't regulated or controlled. The only "regulation" are threads like this where knowledgeable collectors can offer their knowledge to others. And why are there so few of us that battle the producers and sellers of forgeries? One, we are outnumbered, and two, many of them work the intimidation angle. I can't count the number of stories I've read where a buyer of an autograph discovers he bought a forgery and when they attempt to leave negative feedback they are intimidated not to leave negative feedback because the buyer has threatened them with a lawyer response and the buyer backs off. I know I've gotten a little off track here, and I apologize, but I believe this is important to include in this particular thread. And speaking of regulating, how is it that anyone can call themselves an "authenticator?" Before the "authenticator" of the below autograph went into the authenticating business, him and his partner had to make a decision whether to start a hotdog stand business or become "authenticators." I think that says it all.

Attachment 33201

cancelled check
 

With older autographs of those deceased. Would you guys say a cancelled check is a safer bet on being legit or have there been numerous issues with those being fakes as well? I am thinking of the ones that are actually bank perferated cancelled.
thanks

You are pretty much safe with cancelled checks though occasionally a wife signed check could pop up, though those would be more inclined to be on endorsed checks.

.

My 2 cents
 

Could have quoted any number of comments to start, but this seemed like a good one. IMHO - the self proclaimed "expert authenticators" have created the system that makes them necessary. As much has been said I will try to make a few succinct points (all my opinions of course):

1) Biased intention aside what JSA did here is at least extremely poor business practice and deserves the highest levels of criticism, questions and scrutiny. If this is how they "authenticate", they should be out of the business.

2) I think the model used is a GREAT way to test autograph authenticators - In person signed pieces should be submitted multiple times to the same authenticators after having been submitted to a different authenticator. Throw in some clear forgeries for good measure with a "good" authenticators cert to test in the other direction as well. Develop some needed percentage of accuracy to be a "certified" authenticator - hey a whole new business model - authenticate the authenticator.

3) Chris Morales has deservedly no respect from any educated collector

4) Caveat Emptor - Like any purchase it is up to the individual to educate him/herself to a level of comfort to make the purchase. If you rely completely on others (who have not earned that trust) then you will likely be burned at some point.

5) PSA has some well deserved criticism here as well - just heard from a friend who cracked a "6" resubmitted and received an "8" - "objective grading standards"? - Not so much!

6) A) Buy the card not the holder. B) Buy the autograph not the cert/opinion!

7) It is too bad that all of this "3rd party" involvement is not at a higher standard as I strongly believe many who could have been active hobby participants have been "burned away".




-Howard Chasser

guys....Full names please
 

Tomorrow morning, any post in this thread that does not have a full first and last name, will have one put in the post. Either edit out ya'lls comments, put your name in your post, or I will do it for you tomorrow. Please remember the rules. I really don't care if you say stuff but you have to put your name by it. Any questions, let me know. It's all in the rules. I am not playing favorites or protecting any one or anything.... thanks

edited to say if you are only making a general comment about autographs or the hobby, not about anyone or any company, then your name doesn't have to be in the post.....again, it's all in the rules.

Jim Drysdale

Ok, here is my opinion.... i read the story and it just confirms to me not to go anywhere near anything Coach's Corner. If you read the story and think it paints Coach's Corner in a good light, you can't see the forest for the trees.

The only mistake JSA did was, the didn't back anything Morales.. period.. would any other person on here that has posted, back anything Morales said ... cause im calling Bull Sh*t if you say you would still buy the item!

If I seen an autograph i really wanted and i thought it was real... but then seen the CC, Stat COA, You could tell i was walking away because i would be getting smaller!

I trust three professional people's opinions- JSA, PSA/DNA, and Richard Simon.

Lots of good comments made by many.

imo, Just as the "casual fan" has tainted modern baseball, the "casual collector/impulse buyer/investor" has tainted the sports collector hobby.

JSA, PSA/DNA are the two "Gold standards". I wonder, as some have said, If advertising and promotion as well as knowledge and education makes it the reason? I see some on here like David and Richard, whose opinions, along w Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson and others who may not be the "big two", but have greate reputations, I would trust.

In the end, its all an OPINION. I think the buyer of the sig needs to do his own research and make informed decisions. I wish it was that simple, but stories like this one put a sour taste too. In the end, if you don't "feel right", don't invest a lot of money in a sig, no matter who authenticated it. That has to be the solution

Scott Roberts

Know your autographs
 

It's an enormous advantage to be knowledgeable about autographs. I will admit that I have picked up some early Jeter autographs for a great price because I know exactly what to look for. But when it comes to autographs I always look at the autograph FIRST. I don't care who certed it or who produced it; I look at the autograph first. I wonder how many Jeter collectors own the "1998 Topps Co-Signers" autograph cards that contain the autographs of Derek Jeter/Scott Rolen or the card that contains the Derek Jeter/Eric Karros autographs. Most collectors don't realize that a number of the "Masters (the unsigned ones)" of those cards were backdoored and then the autographs of Jeter, Rolen and Karros were forged on those cards. Those cards have the Topps "Certified Autograph Issue" stamped on them. To collectors who don't know autographs they will just assume they have a Jeter/Rolen or Jeter/Karros autograph card because it came from Topps. But they are obvious forgeries. Below is a photo of the Jeter/Rolen forgeries on one of those masters.

Attachment 33283

I agree and disagree
 

While I agree, there is no good conclusion to be drawn from the story re: Coah's corner et al. I STRONGLY disagree with your statement "the only mistake JSA did was....." - IMO the primary mistake that JSA made was looking at ~8 items which he certified as good and 2nd time around certified them as bad - At best one would have to question how qualified he is to authenticate autographs - at worst - agree with the post and accept that he didn't even look at the signatures second trip - only the coa that accompanied it - an irresponsible/inexcusable busniess practice as an authenticator. imho.

-Howard Chasser

I don't see it as a bad business practice to reject out of hand the opinion of someone who makes a living approving bad stuff.

It is probably a bad business practice to justify charging for that rejection by listing reasons. Although maybe not since a rejection simply saying "Fake because it's got a Morales cert" even at no charge will probably draw a lawsuit.

In any field there's people whose opinion is respected, some worthy some not. There are also people who deserve little or no respect for their opinions. And that usually happens because they have a proven track record of having no knowledge of the subject or of being wrong.

Ask me anything about repairing bicycles. I'll probably have a solid answer. And I've got repeat customers who apparently think so too.

Ask me about the certs I made for the diamonds I found in my road side garden. I know they're good, even if I did find them near that broken bottle. And I'll bet your dastardly local jewler will have a good laugh as he tells you they're just broken glass.

Steve Birmingham

Nonsense. They had already certified those autographs as being genuine! Since they seem to render judgments without looking at the autograph, on what basis do you suppose they approved them the first time around?

The items submitted had the original certification markings removed. So they appeared as only having a certificate known to be bad - what 99% of the time? More? Who wouldn't simply reject those without looking at them?

So you're saying that if you were an authenticator you'd spend time actually looking over an autograph with a Morales cert?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

If they wanted to make it a real test they would have later on resubmitted the items without the Morales certs and seen how many got rejected.

But even then I'd be pretty acepting of an error on the side of caution.

They also didn't follow the entire path of the ones from someone else supposedly being stickered without a look. If the person bringing them in is known to have done a private signing, or run a show then the items are most likely good. And pre stickering them is efficient. They never said that they saw the letters being printed without a look, or even that the items didn't get looked at after the stickering.

Steve Birmingham

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, ect ect ect.

I agree 100%. I've used JSA a lot in the past but seriously consider not using them again in the future. JSA (as well as the other authenticators) charge, IMO, a ton - but having them certify something for resale is a must in this day and age to get maximum dollar for the piece. The high price I pay is to have JSA look at the signature, NOT the certificate.

That being said, I have two JSA stories to relate, one that pertains to the subject, the other not so much, but relates to business practices.

Around 1999, I met Tiger Woods and had him autograph a huge Nike poster. Soon after that, I brought the poster to a National and had GAI certify it (back when GAI had a good reputation). A few years ago, as GAIs reputation went down the tubes, I decided to have JSA cert the poster. I was extremely worried that JSA was going to look at the GAI sticker in the bottom corner and automatically say no. I brought it to a White Plains show, paid the $100 fee, and could immediately see Spence look at the signature and the GAI sticker. Spence wasn't comfortable saying "yes" before he took pictures and sent them to his golf expert. He did so, and after the golf expert looked at it, JSA certed the poster (as they should have since I knew it 100% without question authentic). I was terribly worried GAI was going to sway them, but JSA did the right thing authenticated the poster on the merits of the signature, not the existing certificate.

Now - a bad JSA experience. Last year, I brought two Duke Maas signature to a White Plains show. I filled out the forms, indicated that the fee was $20/signature, paid my $40 and went on my way. A few hours later, I came back and was told my cards weren't looked at because JSA charges $75 each for Duke Maas. I called bullsh*t on them and told them to look at the website - the fees are stated there. JSA told me their internet was "temporarily" down. I pulled out my handy iPhone and went to the site myself and showed them the $20 fee listed. The guy dealing with me went to talk with Jimmy and came back to tell me that Jimmy would cut me a break and charge me $75.00 for the two. I laughed, and now the cards reside in PSA/DNA holders. (as a disclaimer, before posting this story, I went to JSA's site. The fee is now $40 for Duke Maas, but still not $75, which is what I was told it was last year). Talk about piss poor customer service!

- Jon Canfield

A waste of time? THEY WERE PAID FOR THAT TIME!

Not actually examining the autograph is not only "bad business practice," it is theft.

Some good points there to consider.

With doctors, lawyers, car repairmen etc I generally try to find someone I believe is excellent in their field so that I can trust their opinion. Fortunately I've never had a major medical or legal problem. If it was bad enough I'd get a second opinion. Crummy pop culture reference now, but the difference here strikes me as a House/Dr Nick comparison.
I do most of my own contractor type work, and very nearly all my own plumbing. I've found a couple people that are excellent, and trust their work if it's something I can't handle. The guys that seem clueless never get to the quoting part:)

I do think David has an excellent point, and in my first post I did say that I thought it was probably bad practice to make up reasons that something was bad to justify charging the fee.I've been convinced that it's definetly poor practice, and not something a reputable company should do. Since it was in person I'd have probably just refused it with no charge. Through the mail would be a bit harder, I can't quite figure out how that sort of rejection would need to be worded legally.
I've been offered a few autographed items in the last couple years that would have been pretty nice, but 5 minutes of research about the quality of the certificates included led me to pass on all of them.

Back to the first point, true story. We get in a bike for a tuneup. With a hole in one tire big enough for me to put 3 fingers through. So we call and tell them they need a new tire, $20 for the tire no extra charge to put it on.
An hour later the wife comes in and says the husband works on cars and says the tire is fine and does not need to be changed! I show her the giant hole by holding up the tire with my fingers through the hole. She sticks with saying it doesn't need changing. And since we won't continue without changing it she'll take it somewhere else. (Which at that point was what I wanted as well) 2 weeks later the husband comes in. With the bike and reciept from another shop. Tuneup $100 instead of our $60. Tire $50 instead of our $20. Labor to put the tire on, another $20. And it still won't shift right and the brakes are dragging. The other shop just put the new tire on and charged them. Wonders if there's anything we can do for him. :confused:
We did get him going for a minimal charge, and he's become a regular customer- And doesn't question if we say a part needs replacing:)


Steve Birmingham

Put on your Depends undergarments Glyn :) I personally would find it easier to spot a fake autograph than a trimmed card and I have about the same amount of expertise in both cards and autographs.

Someone who knows what they are doing can take a 1 second look at a forged Ruth or Mantle and tell which is real and which is not. Even the good forgeries. Literally 1 second.

Even the best card experts in the world would need black lights, measuring devices and magnification etc. They could spot a fake Wagner in 1 second, but try looking at some T206 PSA 9 that has had 1/132" laser shaved off the top border and tell me how long if ever it takes to spot that!

I am not saying 2 experts would not reach the same conclusion, but a 1 second look with the naked eye is a heck of a lot easier than a few minutes with instruments to determine which is the worthless item.

I realize it is like pissing on a forrest fire to try and convince non autograph guys anything positive about the autograph hobby, but with a ton of experience in both cards and autographs, my "OPINION" is that there are more altered cards in PSA holders than there are fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers.

No need to start anything on my statement above, it is just an opinion and despite anyone trying to tell me it almost made them piss their pants, I will stand behind it.

I don't find this to be at all analogous. A T206 PSA 9 that has had "1/132" laser shaved off the top border" is still an authentic card that still has value. The grade is a misrepresentation, but the card is still real and possibly still very desirable. A fake autograph is completely valueless.

I think most of us can spot totally fake cards - things made in someone's basement on a laser printer - more easily than we can spot a fake signature created in someone's basement. And I'd wager that there are more fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers than there are fake cards in PSA holders.

Yeah. It still has "value." What value? 1/10-1/100 the value it will actually sell for because it's been misgraded?

I'm guessing, given the example, that the PSA 9 T206 would have the value of a PSA9 T206. After all, the grading company would reimburse (though potentially in free grading *hit head*) the difference between the PSA9 and the "Authentic" grades for that particular issue. By contrast, the fake autograph with the sticker would have no recourse.