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Who are the 10 most important collectors in hobby history
Here is our list based on their contribution to hobby history and the breadth and scope of their collections. There were 50 collectors on our short list.
We did include dealers who also collected. What do you think? 1. Charles Bray 2. Sir Edward Wharton Tigar 3. Buck Barker 4. Lionel Carter 5. Richard Egan 6. James Copeland 7. Frank Nagy 8. Barry Halper 9. Dr. Robert Wesiberg 10. Mark Rucker Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com |
I can't imagine a top ten without Burdick if hobby contribution is a consideration.
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What about Howie "T206" McCormick??? Did he even make the cut?
Lovely Day... |
imho
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Of Bruce's list I would not quite say the exact same ones. I would take out Copeland....easy choice there. I have never heard of Wesiberg (which doesn't mean much but I would like to think I have at least heard of the name to be in the top ten) so I would take him out and I would take out Mark Rucker. I would probably put in Larry Fritsch for several reasons....and maybe even good ole Lew Lipset. That would round out my 10, with the others Bruce listed. Just my opinion and I am sure there are some collectors I might be forgetting.......Nice question. Here is my first take on it..... 1. Jefferson Burdick 2. Sir Edward Wharton Tigar 3. Buck Barker 4. Lionel Carter 5. Richard Egan 6. Larry Fritsch 7. Frank Nagy 8. Barry Halper 9. Lew Lipset 10. Charles Bray |
List
I am familiar in varying degrees with 9 of the 10 gentleman listed, but who is Dr. Robert Wesiberg--I don't recall hearing his name before (and is it possibly spelled 'Weisberg'?).
And of course Burdick should be listed. Brian |
Barry Halper has lost a great deal lot of credibility lately (deservingly so). Because of that, I wouldn't exclude him from the top ten and slide Walt Corson in his place.
Lovely Day... |
You guys are forgetting
"America's most important buyer of rare, high grade baseball memorabilia." |
Everybody on those lists are either deceased, no longer in the hobby, or only peripherally involved. Aren't any of the present day collectors worthy of mention?
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Hobby contributions I understand, but what does the "breadth and scope of their collections" have to do with being important?
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Just my opinion, but you (or me) are the most significant collector in the history of the hobby. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be beholding to those who studied or compiled masses of information, but ultimately this is a personal journey. Is it solitary? Anything but. What we truly accumulate, other than cards, are experiences, friendships, relationships and connections with others. We only own the card for a while. If we pass on a love for the game and an appreciation for the hobby, we have been significant. I have read Burdick's work. I sort of knew Frank Nagy who by all accounts was great. My brief correspondence with Lipset was more negative that positive. To me the most significant collector I met was Keith Miller, who taught me to be honest in all my dealings and to help others out when you can. I have been encouraged by a collector named Ed Woodard who taught me not to keep my stuff locked up...that I should share it every chance I get.
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Great post bbcard1 !!!
Clayton |
Well, there's me, and then
a few of you that I like, and then I suppose some of the other ones already mentioned.
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In order of importance:
1.Wharton Tigar 2.Jeff Burdick 3.Lew Lipset 4.Barry Halper 5.Richard Masson 6.Frank Nagy 7.Buck Barker 8.Keith Olbermann 9.Lionel Carter 10.Charles Bray Honorable Mention: Rich Egan, Larry Fritsch, Keith Mitchell, Don McPherson. The best collections ever are, I believe, held by a few modern collectors. |
Given enough time and opportunity that order will change :)
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I am not sure where he ranks all-time, but Randy Stuckemeyer had quite the collection.
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I would think Barry Halper for amassing such a vast and diverse collection (authenticity questions aside), Dr. James Beckett for his collection and his price guides and how that changed the hobby from circa 1980 to 2000, and PSA for introducing the grading system to the hobby, which like it or not, has transformed the way cards are bought and sold the last 10 years.
Also Larry Fritch has to be on there somewhere. Just about everybody has bought something from Larry Fritch at some time in there life. |
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I don't mean to sound ignorant by asking these questions. I only ask because I have read a number of your posts and you always seem to be speaking for some group of people? Thanks in advance for your answer. I like the list pssted by oldjudge except that I don't know what Keith Olbermann has done for the hobby (not necessary the order he posted them in)? I'm not saying he did nothing. I'm just saying I don't know what he has brought. I do think Fritsch & Randy belong there plus another current collector who I'm sure doesn't want his name mentioned here. My honorable mention might be Marshall Fogel considering his memorabilia. If Halper is considered Marshall should be as well, IMO. |
Tom-I was ranking collections as much as contributions to the hobby. Keith has one of the greatest collections ever and he has written some very informative hobby articles. While both Marshall and Randy have great collections, I don't think they are in the same class as some of the others mentioned.
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Tom- Bruce refers to himself in the first person plural. When he says "we" he means "I."
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We rank myself in the top 10.
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Most Important Collections of all time
We made a mistake in not including Burdick- in fact he was on the top of a list of 50 collectors who served as our short list
We agree that Larry Fritsch (although we only knew Larry as a dealer more than as a collector) and Don MacPherson should be somewhere in top 10-15 Again one of the criteria that we used was contribution to the hobby. As for more other collectors who are alive and kicking (or recently deceased) albeit,not all of them are active, our list would includes Jim Blumenthal John Buonaguidi Tom Collier (deceased- we think) Mark Cooper Ken Felden- best memorabilia collection we ever saw Marshall Fogel Larry Fritsch Dan Gantt Gerry Glasser Dennis Goldstein Jim Horne Scott Ireland John Kasmaian Larry Kelley Terry Knouse Lew Lipset Rob Lifson George Lyons (now deceased) Marc MacRae Dan McKee Charlie Merkel Joe Michaelowitz Gar Miller Jay Miller Lew Newman Bob Richardson Corey Shanus Barry Sloate Don Spence Don Stenibach (now deceased) Robert Thing |
Us am confused by all of this.
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I know Halper has some questionability arise to some of the items, but what exactly is the question? Forged jerseys? Autographs? Cards?
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I have to add Mark Macrae and Lionel Carter.
How can you have a top 10 without these two? Mark knows more about PCL cards than anyone in the hobby and has always been willing to share his knowledge. Carter was a hobby pioneer. 'Nuff said. |
Attention TBob
Hi T Bob
Lionel Carter was Number 5 on our list Happy Labor Day ! Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List |
I'm not sure he would qualify as a collector, and from my dealings with him, I'm not even sure he liked cards, but it seems like there has to be a place on the list for Goodwin Goldfaden. Does he qualify as the first card dealer ever?
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In the honorable mention category I would have to add John England. When he sold his collection to Fritsch it took three North American moving vans according to the old SCD story on the sale to move it to Wisconsin.
During a phone visit with Larry he told me that his personal collection more than doubled with the purchase. After years of buying trips to John I would have never known. He did put me in touch with Wharton-Tigar when I told him I would like to find some old tennis cards back in the late 70s. That was a fun experience! |
I wonder how many of us
can name three to five people who should be on a list like this, but they want their privacy, and we help them maintain it by not ranking collection competition in threads like these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DzX18o-zsA (perhaps the inspiration for Bruce's plurality) |
Privacy
Whilst we recognize your point of view on privacy, everyone on our list (s) wrote about the hobby in magazines like The Card Collector or Trader Speaks, and/or often advertised or they were large bidders at major public auctions.
Therefore, there is nothing wrong about naming said people. There are no secrets in this hobby. We have over 2000 articles on sports collecting and over 500 back copies of baseball memorabilia trade publications dating back to 1927. Furthermore, at each of early Sotheby's auctions and early Leland auctions- we tracked the winning floor bidder and recorded his name so we could trace history of the items. Many of the 30+ major items that we obtained since the 2010 National came from individuals who are not visible at all, but own world class collections. We hope you see our point. If one spends thousands of hours tracing hobby publications, talking to collectors and dealers and reviewing magazine ads and auction catalogs,,,one certainly has the right to publish a list. Given the number of responses from other Board Members, we would say that Philliesphan that you are "out in left field" on this issue. We await your response. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com |
i could well be wrong, but I think it would be very difficult given the nature of the hobby to amass a leading collection so far under the radar that it would not be common knowledge at least in general terms.
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Philliesphan couldn't be more right when he says there are at least 3-5 people not on your list that should be way up on your list. And I agree with him that it is only right for us to respect their wishes by not calling their names out in public.
Yankeefan51, all of you over there need to calm down. There is no reason for any of you to say that just because he told all of you the truth. |
Can't imagine
I can't imagine all of these anonymous folks being so helpful to the hobby? If they are so helpful why the anonymity? Isn't that counter to what is being discussed? Also, I am taking the title literally. For me, the most important collectors aren't the ones with the most money that can buy whatever they want to. I don't begrudge them whatever they want to do but I just don't think buying a large collection necessarily helps the hobby. I guess it does in the sense that it keeps it moving but I like to think of helping the hobby as actually helping collectors. If the anonymous people are big registry guys then I would say they are great for the registry, might be really nice guys and collectors, but I am not sure that helps the hobby in general...though that can definitely be argued and I could see the other side of that argument too. Interesting discussion....way to go Brucii :)
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What about Marshall Fogel? In addition to having a great collection, he is ready to spearhead a nonprofit hobby watchdog organization. That is a pretty significant contribution to the hobby.
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contributions to the hobby
I agree with what you said Leon. I admit that I was not looking at contribution to the hobby as much as breathe, depth, etc. of their collections when I say there are at least 3-5 people who should be on that list.
To be honest, I assumed (wrongly) that this second list that the Brucii posted wasn't about contributions to the hobby because there are more than a couple people on that list that I don't know about having contributed much if anything outside of having huge collections? I could be wrong. I'm just saying I don't know what they contributed that was so great? I don't want to be disrespectful by calling out their names but there are some obvious ones to me. I'm not bad talking them because they sure as hell don't owe "the hobby" anything. They should be enjoying it like the rest of us. If I'm wrong please go down the list and explain to me what each of those people contributed to the hobby outside of compiling huge collctions? You can skip obvious people like Burdick, Fritsch, Lifson, J. Miller and Lipset. Outside of those five gentlemen I would love the education so I can give each of these men the proper respect they deserve. Thanks in advance. Tom |
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the list of contributors to the hobby
Since there are a couple of dead people listed on list B can we (meaning Bruce) just merge both lists into one list? It would be great to use that one list to show who contributed what to the hobby.
Thanks! |
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IMO, some of the most important collectors in hobby history are the ones who so kindly provide us with their knowledge and insight about the cards they love and collect, and share pictures & scans of cards we may never get a chance to own. Collectors who run websites devoted to the cards we love (Net54,oldcardboard,T206.org,etc.) and who write books (Jefferson Burdick-ACC,,,, Jay M.,Joe G., and Richard M.-The Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin & Company 1886-1890,,,Scot R.-Inside T206,,,,,Lew Lipset-The Encyclopedia of Baseball (all volumes),,,,,etc.
I think the title of this thread could've been " Who has had the most impressive collection in hobby history". Clayton |
absolutely...but to be more specific
I hate to be so agreeable, because it's not generally my nature, but you guys are absolutely correct. What we are discussing really needs to be split into two, as one is not really dependant on the other.
1. Who has/had the best baseball card collection? 1b. Who has/had the best sports memorabilia collection? 2. Who has/have contributed most (positively) to the baseball card hobby? (I am being specific on purpose) Defining the questions would lead to different answers, most times, and I can understand and would even stick up for a collectors right to be private. It's their collecting...more power to them. On the other hand, to contribute positively to the hobby, it might be difficult to remain anonymous or behind the scenes. regards |
Agreed
All would be interesting conversations.
I am particularly interested in a thread that addresses "Who has/have contributed most (positively) to the baseball card hobby?" and what was the contribution and impact? I think everyone can learn something on a thread like that and it would not be nearly as self-serving as the original thread topic was meant to be. ;) Edited to add: Right after Jefferson Burdick I would like to nominate Elliot Bassin for putting Net54 on the map :) |
+1
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Finding and buying cards, and selling them as a collector, was made easier by a quantum leap with the advent of ebay, so I would nominate Pierre Omidyar.
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True, true Peter. I guess we should probably set out by saying the contributions should be specifically made for this hobby (card collecting). If not I can see people adding the inventors of paper, camera's, ink, printing presses, etc. I wouldn't call any of these people, nor Pierre, great sportscard hobby contributors. Just my opinion, of course. But I can see both sides of that argument. |
Like him or not (hi Jeff!) Bill Mastro was a driving force in establishing the auction as a fixture in the hobby.
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Bill is an awesome dude. I hope he can be Best Man at my 14th wedding someday.
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Bruce started a similar thread back about 2 years ago.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ial+collectors http://forum.mydyingbride.org/images...s/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images...s/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images...s/beerchug.gif |
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Actually there was one last year even closer on topic. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=wharton |
well
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i was hoping to make the list this year, but once again, i was over looked!
I must be #101... I personally don't think Halper should be one the list any longer, with all the recent findings. |
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Alan, That wasn't Bruce. That was that damn Archive fellow! |
I came from a stamp and coin background prior to getting into baseball cards about five years ago. In those fields there has been a great deal of scholarly research done over the years. To me, the card hobby is just in its infancy compared to stamps and coins. In order for it to mature we need to see more research, books written and hobby associations formed. We should have organizations like the American Stamp Dealers Association, Society of Philatelic Americans, the American Numismatic Association and others. Why we don't have exhibitions of collections, research papers presented and conferences at the National puzzles me.
To address the topic at hand, I would nominate Lew Lipset for his Encyclopedia, Scot Reader and Ted Zanadakis for their ground-breaking work on T206 and the guys that put the Old Judge book together. This is the kind of research that will eventually bring order and growth to the hobby. |
History Lesson
Dear Critics
Our list (s) of the most important collectors in the history of the hobby was focused on the plethora of people whose involvement shaped the hobby. It is clear that a number of you have no idea who certain collectors are/were and what they contributed. For example ,one of the people on our list wrote a series of important articles about the Texas Tommy series, and accumulated more than 45 examples. We, of course, are still in contact, but would not reveal their name. Other collectors brought interest to the importance of grading cards and essentially enabled the creation of a billion dollar business. To show you how far things have come in a 1956 Hobby Publication which we have there is a cover story on a young junior banker whose "$1000 collection" was considered the most valuable in the baseball card hobby. The article notes that the junior lending officer is the only person in the country to have a complete set of the "ultra rare Delong gum cards" Said legendary collector, now deceased, sent us his entire 45-year collection of hobby publications along with a note of gratitude for our research efforts, and willingness to trade with him. Many of the "unknown" collectors referenced by our "misguided, uneducated critics" were friends of the aforementioned legendary collector. In turn they worked with Egan and other pioneers in identifying players, sets and provenance of various cards and sets. For those of you who are not true students of hobby history, said collector was our friend, the late Lionel Carter. As Always, Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com The country's leading buyer of high grade ultra rare baseball cards and memorabilia (no bats, autographs, uniforms equipment etc.) |
Really classy. You can't take criticism or challenges so you belittle people.
For the record your so-called history lesson didn't teach anything other than that you claim to be friends with people that actually have contributed something. Well, there is no prize given to the beauty queen's best friend so I guess you are also one of us non-contributing little people in the hobby. BTW, we all know about Egan, Carter and many other pioneers. They contributed, yes. You are not Merlin for knowing that. In fact, all of what you just said about Lionel Carter was in the article written about Mr. Carter when his collection was auctioned. We didn't call anyone on the list you posted "unknown" as you accuse. We challenged that some of them were bigtime contributors to the hobby. Anybody can go down the list you posted and make you look foolish for professing some of those people actually "shaped the hobby". We don't because those people don't deserve to be called out for something so foolish. I'm sure they are all very nice people who could care less about such trivial lists. Please grow-up. :) |
I know he never posts and I know he likes it private but a certain broadcaster must be included on the list. He often published articles and owns one of the best collections in the hobby.
I think the list should also include Beckett as a contributor and collector. Bob Lemke needs to be mentioned as well. A wonderful contributor to the hobby and collector of knowledge more than cards. (And a damn fine card artist lately too). Just a few I think needed to be mentioned (if they haven't already). Joshua |
Dave Kohler
Bill Mastro Doug Allen J.P. Cohen Alan Rosen Mark Rucker Alan Hager Sergio Delgado Hal Lewis Marshall Barkman -Ryan |
Ryan,
What a great list. I'm shocked Mr Mint wasn't mentioned before. In all seriousness I've learned the most about this hobby I love not from the "big names " on any list but from the people who share their knowledge on these message boards as well as the people who take the time to write the great articles in Old Cardboard. And of course Lipset for the "Encylopedia". |
Wasn't Hal Lewis a decent guy? For the record, while I appreciate hobby history, the only collection that matters to me is my own.
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Hal Lewis wasn't just a decent guy--he was a great guy.
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I remember Hal Lewis lost a lot in real estate along with a huge chunk of his collection. However, never remember him being remembered as a shady fellow?
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Noicebringer, I was happy to see Bill Mastro in your list. There has been a lot of negative feedback about Bill lately, but he has a great collection. Also I know of 2 collectors who are not going public, that have great collections, possibly in the top ten.
Joe |
Come Back When You Grow Up...
In life and in war, when one is attacked one has the right, in fact, the obligation to respond.
To our knowledge, there was not a single person on our list of 35 who did not make a major contribution to shaping the hobby. There were a select few names that we failed to note, and we acknowledged those collectors in subsequent posts. A collector who spent $5 or 10 million on cards has certainly made a major contribution by raising awareness of rare items and by attracting others to the hobby, and often by attracting the press. We are afraid it is you who needs to grow up. Remember in the competition for the very best in life there are only two classes of people: winners and losers. So little boy, while you keep whining..we'll keep adding to America's Toughest Want List Bruce Dorskind America's Foremost Collector of Rare High Grade Baseball Cards and Memorabilia If you extraordinary items to sell please write in confidence to bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com Thank you and Happy Labor Day |
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Really? I always assumed he was talking about his wife or significant other. |
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Not so much. |
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Again with the name calling. Boring.
Nice catch on Hal Lewis as a collector, guys. I'm not sure how he slipped by? Same with James Beckett and Bob Lemke as contributors. |
I infer the original reference to Hal was sarcastic, but he did generate a lot of interest and debate about the definition of a rookie card, and by extension the definition of a card in general.
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Well....only 10
The original question only asked for 10 people. That is quite a small number for the last 75 yrs, or so, of collecting. I gave my 10 but certainly missed some names that could have been put in.
Bruce- I still don't think that just because someone spends 10 million on a collection that they should be nominated for the list. It's the people, dare I say, that give back and help collectors and the hobby, that I feel should be on the list. It would be fun to have a current 10 and a past 10 too. There are also names like Denardo, Young, Mitchell (Hi Stephen) and many more that could make the list. As I said, 10 is a small number. regards |
absolutely
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You are 100% correct. This can't be just about money. If it is, I heard a rumor in another thread that the ex-Mrs. Dorskind may have a collection worth somewhere north of $2,000,000! Maybe we should add her to the list. :rolleyes: |
Agreed that just because someone has the ability to write a million dollar check doesn't make him a great collector. To make the list, one has to be a lot more well rounded than that. I've always admired the collector who maybe didn't have a lot of money to spend but was resourceful and knowledgeable, and was still able to amass a great collection by working hard and using every skill he could. That was always my definition of a great collector.
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Well this is a thought-provoking thread.
Who are the 10 most important collectors in hobby history. For me, the 'are' and the 'history' have me leaning in differing directions on this. I think what it means (not necessarily what was intended) is that in the history of our hobby (baseball card collecting is inferred) who are the 10 most important collectors. I agree with those who make the distinction between being important to the hobby and having a great collection. So this is about important collectors, not the best collections. Bruce, Leon and Jay have their top 10s... (Bruce's reflecting his correction) 1. Jefferson Burdick---- 1. Jefferson Burdick------------1.Wharton Tigar 2. Charles Bray---------2. Sir Edward Wharton Tigar---2.Jeff Burdick 3. Sir EW Tigar---------3. Buck Barker----------------3.Lew Lipset 4. Buck Barker----------4. Lionel Carter---------------4.Barry Halper 5. Lionel Carter---------5. Richard Egan---------------5.Richard Masson 6. Richard Egan---------6. Larry Fritsch---------------6.Frank Nagy 7. James Copeland------7. Frank Nagy-----------------7.Buck Barker 8. Frank Nagy----------8. Barry Halper----------------8.Keith Olbermann 9. Barry Halper---------9. Lew Lipset------------------9.Lionel Carter 10. Dr. R Wesiberg-----10. Charles Bray---------------10.Charles Bray My 10... 1 Jefferson Burdick 2 EW Tigar 3 Lew Lipset 4 Buck Barker 5 Charles Bray 6 Richard Egan 7 Frank Nagy 8 Bill Haber 9 Keith Olbermann 10 Lionel Carter I know not of Dr. Robert Wesiberg. Copeland and Halper did massive collecting, but I don't think they were that important to the hobby. Sharing information is a major component to be considered. Some major collectors have actually done things that hurt the hobby. So this isn't about the size of a collection. Tigar pushes Burdick closely for 1st... I would think that there are many collectors of T206s who have no idea who Barker, Bray, Egan, and Haber were. They might know of Nagy and Carter only because of the slabs that bear their names for cards having been in their collections. And that is a shame. Maybe our hobby needs a book on the history of baseball card collecting. Maybe only a few of us care about such... Either we need this site to accept spreadsheets so columns and such work, or if it already does then I need to learn how to use such. Probably both... |
I'm aware of one Sheik Semaj Nigaef of Dubai, a renowned Arabian horse trader who has quietly accumulated a superior type collection over the past three decades. It has been acquired under terms of strict confidentiality and not too many Westerners know of it.
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Ecin yrt, Semaj.
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Haber
Frank,
I don't recall hearing of Bill Haber. Can you write a few words on him to educate? Thanks much. Tom http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/burdickphoto.jpg |
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