So what was the big meeting all about last night at the national with JP & Marshall?
 

Can anyone report what the meeting was about? Thanks.

I think they were comparing their National want lists.

The first 30 minutes were spent practicing saying the phrases "I cannot recall" and "I'm sorry, it's been so long, I can't remember."

The next 30 minutes were spent memorizing this one:

"I wish to execute my 5th Amendment right on the advice of my attorney, I refuse to answer that question because it may incriminate me."

I recall a J.P. Cohen who was sentenced to 37 months in federal prison for wire fraud a few years ago. It was in connection with a fundraising scam in which donors were told that money would be used to buy wheelchairs for veterans and to provide holiday parties for sick children in local hospitals. In fact, he and his cronies were lining their pockets. This couldn't be the same J.P. Cohen, could it?

Same one.

I believe he is the same person, but not positive.

And this meeting could have been called "Dinner for Schmucks"?

Rumor
 

I think I know the topic of the meeting, but it could be just a rumor. PSA, Beckett and SGC are going to join forces and they will start using a real 100 point grading system, and the grades will be assigned by a computer. All existing grades from every grading company will be declared null and void, and all existing graded cards will need to resubmitted and regraded on the 100 point scale. Every card will be assigned a value, according to the assigned grade, and it will be illegal for any cards to be sold for 10% more or less than the assigned value.

Time for my medication.

Rick

Is that true, or a joke? Because it sounds more like a joke.

um joke... TPG would never band together!

I believed the part about all the cards having to be resubmitted again...that would be a grading company's dream!

It could have been a meeting between the Priory of Sion and Opus Dei over the possibility of the PSA 8 Wagner being trimmed on the basis that an early photograph of it may exist with larger, yet wavy borders. :eek:

Maybe they were debating whether or not they'll show Bruce their PSA 11 Ultra-MT rare type cards.

If I had to guess, I'd imagine that the meeting was led by Bill Mastro's best friend, attended by JP Cohen, and involved the proposed formation of some ill-conceived trade association in which its dealer members would pay a large fee to join and somehow abide by some code of rules in order to act as a bulwark against some very bad impending news in the hobby.

Of course, anyone who would pay money to such a body would be utterly insane -- probably about as insane as anyone who trusted Bill Mastro and JP Cohen with their money over the years.

It goes without saying that it is laughable to even imagine that such a group gathered last night was somehow concerned with eliminating fraud in the hobby as opposed to simply protecting their own past and future financial gains. But then again, I'm just imagining what could have happened in that room last night as I wasn't invited.

Jeff,

Are you at the National?

He got banned.

Shhhh he is traveling incognito.

Barry
 

Hi Barry, my post was a pathetic attempt at humor.

Rick:o

I heard there wasn't any food there, so I didn't go. :D

I wouldn't mind as long as the new holders are as appealing as this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...%3DI%26otn%3D2

Since the email about the meeting supposedly said "this meeting is important in combating the national consequences that are about to occur causing damage to the reputation and the past financial successes of our industry." I'm very curious as to what these "national consequences that are about to occur" are since they apparently already know, but nobody else was informed? :confused:

I was there from Weds at the start until near the end of the day today. And yes, I was pretty incognito. I'll be discussing my impressions of the National tomorrow on a radio show from 5-9 am that I'm hosting in NYC. I'm glad that most of the people who were at the National will not be tuning in.

Crabs, beer and fraudsters....:D

Any chance any of this will be posted to the internet somewhere? I get into the office in DC at 0530 so unfortunately I'll miss it live.

I was planning on going to the show this weekend but we just moved, have a little league baseball field about 60 yards from our back door, and my three year old just got his first wiffle ball and bat and loves being on the field with them so I'm taking a pass. My first national visit will have to wait.

Who knows, maybe someone will get indicted.

I was joking at first with the whole Da Vinci Code reference, but the idea that only a small group of people is privy to "national consequences about to occur causing damage to the reputation and to the past financial successes of our industry" (or what I thought was a hobby) seems a bit disturbing... :confused:

Bill,

Any chance you can listen on the internet while at work? Jeff's show tomorrow is available at: www.AM970theApple.com

joke
 

barry s,
i thought i was the only dinosaur who had to ask folks if something's a joke or not. Thanks for being my friend once again!!
all the best,
barry a

Jeff - your radio show
 

listening now (6:31 am EST), have you already done your National review or is that forthcoming? thx.

Hey, I'll believe anything...if it's funny enough.

I'm not sure what it was about, but they may be worried about the guy I saw I walking around whose shirt was drawing a lot of attention.

The back of his shirt simply said....



GRAND
SLAM
BIDS
.COM

I'm listening to Jeff now too...Jeff talks for a minute, then there are nine minutes of commercials. What a crappy station.

Barry, someone's got to pay the bills over here!

I'll be talking about the National again in this hour.

I know Jeff...and I'm actually agreeing with some of your points...but not all, of course.

focus
 

please stop talking about all the issues of the day and let's get to the important stuff - baseball cards - heheh

I'll get to the National again, I promise. I spent 15 mins on it earlier this morning.

99.9% overweight and misshapen...:)

A nation waits breathlessly.

NEt54 calender?
 

My girlfriend is waiting with great anticipation. I hope Wonka is working on it already.

Rawn

Grotesque oddities. :)

There have been rumors that certain industry executives are soon to be indicted. That is hinted at in the Daily News article posted a few days ago. I don't think it's anything more than that.

Being someone who tips the scales at about 150 pounds, I was always fascinated by the girth of some of these guys. Don't they ever say "no" to that second helping of apple pie?

Not everyone can be an ascetic.

Returning to more serious matters, the problem with forming a group of dealers to police the hobby is the ones who agree to join are generally the honest and ethical ones, and those who operate below the radar will not join.

So how will this proposed group deal with the card doctors, autograph forgers, and general miscreants who will still conduct business a usual?

Are we talking about a group of dealers led by a convicted felon and his friends?
Maybe the hobby needs a Commissioner. I nominate Jeff.

Net 54ers notwithstanding, I think that the issue of fraud in the hobby is not fully appreciated by a wide range of collectors. If, however, indictments and convictions stem from the current investigation and are well publicized, then collectors generally should become sensitive to these problems.

Then, assuming a strong and vibrant association of ethical dealers (auction houses/authenticators/graders) is established and becomes recognized by collectors, those who decline to join should over time be driven from the hobby.

Another problem arises obviously if it is the dealers with a checkered past who attempt to associate. The system will only work, in my view, where a strong code of ethics can be established and enforced.

A strong and vibrant association of ethical dealers. Don't we all wish.

I can't be Commissioner -- I'm banned.

Mark- how can you ban a card doctor who works out of his basement? He never was a part of the mainstream hobby, and maybe has never even shown his face to collectors. So what organization is going to stop guys like this? Only the grading services can by identifying and rejecting his altered cards. But often the work is so good it can't be detected.

Any organization to clean up the hobby is great in theory. But I think it would be relatively powerless.

Or the auction houses by not taking their consignments.

Auction houses rarely turn down consignments.

QED. So it goes on and on.

Barry--

No system is perfect. If there are card doctors so skilled that their work cannot be detected by expert graders, so be it. But what can be achieved through an association is to ensure that participating grading services maintain the necessary expertise to identify alterations so much as possible and operate in an ethical manner by avoiding card doctors and those complicit with card doctors where feasible.

The power of an association is derived from its members. Thus, it can only be as effective as its members wish. But, it seems to me that there is a two-fold purpose for dealers to operate ethically: the salutary business purpose of cultivating and maintaining effective customer relations, and to try to avoid finding themselves in the cross-hairs of law enforcement.

Mark

Mark, are you aware who was in that room discussing such an association? If the tables weren't bolted down they'd have been stolen.

I certainly agree that the grading services should implement the highest possible level of detection, but if you asked them how they are doing I'm sure they will tell you they hardly miss anything. Do you think they will say they're missing a lot and have to do a much better job?

It really is best for everyone if the Fox is put in charge of watching the Henhouse.

I'd guess the rest of the meeting was Marshall doing his Columbo impersonation while JP faked histerical laughter and slapped him on the back.

jeff's post
 

very funny! "tables would be stolen"

You sir are a very wise man, enjoy!

You guys are tough.

As I say, the system will only work where its members cede authority to the association to establish and enforce a strict code of ethics. We can only hope and assume that the alleged impending indictments will put the fear of God in those individuals who need it in order to operate ethically.

I don't think the grading companies need to acknowledge their shortcomings in order to benefit from participation in the association. Again, as the general public becomes more aware of fraud in the hobby, I think it will behoove the companies to be able to advertise that they are subject to stringent standards of expertise and operation enforced by an objective body.

The actual, genuine and all original table from the 2010 National Convention in Baltimore where the now famous "meeting of the masterminds" took place. Signed by J.P. Cohen, Marshall Fogel and many of the other luminaries who took part in this historic meeting which led to the creation of... nothing. A priceless artifact of the hobby. Impossible to estimate the value of this one of a kind piece of cheap furniture. No reserve.

So what's going to happen Mark dealers are going to turn over their books and records to an association, or make them available for inspection? The owner of SGC is going to sell if the association decides he has a conflict of interest? The grading services are going to submit to inspections? How does this work?

The price on the table is 75K -- but for you I'll sell it for 72.5K because after all, I've got 70K into it.

Mark,

If you re-read the original email, there was no mention of any intent to establish or enforce any code of ethics. There is no mention of doing anything to clean up the hobby nor "operate ethically."

The intent is to figure out a way to maintain the status quo. They are worried about reputations and financial consequences.

That's a very different goal than you are hoping for.



"Marshall emphasized to me that this meeting is important in combating the national consequences that are about to occur causing damage to the reputation and the past financial successes of our industry."

The interesting phrase contained therein, IMHO...
 

is: "combating the national consequences"
this suggests an overaching structural change of some sort, and one that could be met on some field of battle with some tactic...

also, how do you "damage...PAST financial successes"? perhaps they are finding that the hobby's biggest collectors amassed their amazing collections with the use of PEDs, and will have an asterisk placed by their names going forward?

Back to basics: I don't wish to set myself up as defending the individuals who held the meeting, none of whom I know. My point is a larger one, that I think the concept of an association is viable. It would obviously need to include virtually all of the major companies that are generally perceived as operating in an ethical manner. If they do not see it as in their best interests to participate, leaving only companies of dubious reputation, no one is going anywhere.

Peter's questions raise a level of detail that would need to be worked out during the development of the association. I think the potential answer to all is "yes."

By confiscating funds or property that were gained through illegal actions.

Anyone that used credit cards, loans or lines of credit instead of cash to purchase cards for their registry sets will have an asterisk assigned next to the respective set or sets and registry points will be docked accordingly in accordance to the severity of the occurrences within each set. :)

Yes indeed, entities with a vested interest, acting in collusion, to form a self-regulating monopoly whose rulings can not be challenged, is always the best way to ensure integrity...

LOL!
Oh! Don't worry! They intend to charge a big application/membership fee. That will keep out the riff-raff.

Or keep them in, depending on your POV.

Maybe all the masterminds could sign a document !!! but whom would be able to authenticate it?

If those are masterminds, then i must be a pure F**kin Genius!!

Here's a taste of what might have been discussed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYrj...eature=related

I turned it off after hearing the phrase "investment portfolio" repeated approximately 12 times...............so it was about two minutes in. :(

Wow. Watching that youtube clip just now made me feel like I was at a stock investment seminar :rolleyes:

that seems about as far away from the spirit of Lionel Carter as you could get.

That's for sure. The stock investment seminar comparison was dead on too. I can't imagine spending an hour and watching all six parts of this thing. I must not have gotten the memo about when they changed collecting baseball cards from a hobby to building an investment portfolio. :(

While watching this video, it quit playing and this message flashed up.

-