How would you react to a personal attack (by SGC)?
 

I tend not to like to get involved in drama, but recently my dad had a disagreement with SGC regarding a controversial brown old mill card.

We are all adults here and business is business. I understand that making someone whole on a card that was cracked out can be a contentious thing -- especially given that my dad has no written records of a purchase price and has repeatedly mentioned that he doesn't know what he paid for it. I don't begrudge SGC for taking their time in trying to assess what the true "make good" value of a card that they deemed incorrectly graded - even though this process has dragged on a few months. But here's where I want the board's advice.....

My dad forwarded on some comments make by Sean from SGC that were honestly pretty hurtful when I read them. For instance ...

"In an earlier email you mentioned that you were concerned about your integrity among other collectors with respect to this situation. Based on my research your concern is valid."

In looking through the email history, I see a lengthy discussion, but no personal insults....until now. If getting made whole from SGC means withstanding verbal insults if you won't accept SGC's first offer, what type of "guarantee" is that?

But my question is more basic than this. If it was YOUR dad who was being insulted in this manner --- how would you handle it?



P.S.

As for the card, if and when this situation is resolved, I plan on letting a few experts from the forum examine the card --- to get an unbiased opinion.

I think from that one sentence, it can be interpreted in different ways, and it might not be meant as an insult. If that's the only verbal insult that you think SGC has made, I think you should give them the benefit of the doubt, and that no insult was meant.

Interpretation 1 (which I think you are seeing):

(1) "Based on my research your concern is valid."

This could mean that SGC is saying that your dad has no integrity, which I believe is the interpretation that you are taking.

(2) This same sentence could also mean that SGC understand that your dad is concerned about his loss of integrity among other collectors, and they understand why he is concerned BUT they themselves don't question his integrity.

I think this second one what SGC probably meant, and they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Just from my personal experience, SGC has always provided superlative customer service for me although I have never been in this type of situation.

Scott- I know you are upset, and you and your dad are both my friends. But given the card was cracked out, and you have no receipt of purchase price, you should be a little more flexible.

I don't know how you got to the point with SGC that things got contentious, but I'll guess it had something to do with the amount of money they offered you, which you feel is not enough.

At this point I'm not sure if it is the amount of money that you are upset with, or the tenor of the email you received, or both. I would suggest both sides take a time out, that SGC offer an apology for the email, and that both parties agree on a reasonably fair compensation...and then everybody move on.

We have the Bill Latzko-REA thread churning along and I feel the same way about that one. Rob made a fair offer, and even if Bill didn't find it to be perfect he should have accepted it and moved on. Believe me, I've had disputes with customers that didn't always work out exactly as both parties would have liked. Well you know what- life can be like that sometimes. No reason to end friendships or relationships over it. Just work out something that both sides can live with and move on.

But it would be a nice gesture if SGC apologized to Hank and Scott over that email.

This may be another example of how an email message can be misinterpreted. I trust Gary's #2 is what they meant. I would hope that no one at SGC, even on a bad day, would be dumb enough to insult a customer.

Regarding the card, what happened? I missed something. Was it damaged by SGC?

I have been asking for a scan of this card in question for several years, maybe now I will get a chance to look at it in person.

I would think if there was a large amount of coin spent on this card, somewhere there would be a record of it.

As far as a personal attack, I will weigh in on that after I check out the card and receive the rest of the facts.

Brown Old Mill?
 

Is this about that Brown Old Mill southern leaguer T206 that was in the Goodwin auction and then pulled? It had appeared to me that SGC had mislabeled this card and it wasn't a Brown back after all, just a faded black back.

If this is what this thread is about, it was interesting to me that the Levy's took SGC's labeling as fact, when the card really didn't look brown on the back. It's also interesting that Goodwin accepted the consignment without questioning the SGC label either. You guys have so much trust in SGC that I guess nobody expects SGC to ever make a mistake. Has SGC admitted to an error? If so, can you show that the error was costly to you?

SGC makes mistakes. All of the 3pgs do. We all do...

When I see a 3pg mistake I'm amused, not infuriated. One of the few cards I have that is slabbed and not cracked out is an SGC mistake. My amusement is possible because I don't care about nor rely upon what a slip on a slab says.

Busting out a card is akin to removing the back of a Rolex, or breaking the hood seal on a Rolls Royce... I took an iPhone apart a few weeks ago, in a futile attempt to dry it out and get it working again. (A daughter ran it through the washer.) That was not successful, but I did enjoy the Youtube video's about how to try to do it.

What if.... 1- SGC had gotten it right, 2- you didn't rely on 3pg, 3- you'd left it in the holder, or you didn't collect 3pg cards. With any of those 'what if's' the problem would not exist.

Having said all of that, to your question. You're the son. Let your Dad deal with it. I'd be annoyed that someone sent such emails to my Dad, but it isn't my place to do anything at all about it unless he asks for assistance. So I think you should stay out of it, not offer assistance, but be willing to assist if he does ask for it.

I tend to agree with what Ron said...I'd presume the card in question was purchased for what an ordinary SL old mill would sell for when it was purchased...that is unless the seller was touting it as an om brown back...and your dad was banking on that and paid a significant premium.

So then if this was the case...that a significant premium was paid...to me it's no different than seeing a card on ebay that one thinks is a rare error/variation...and pays a significant premium for it...in the hopes of a big payday...that turns out to be common...lesson learned and move on.

we all make mistakes.

These lenox/om brown back variations are very challenging to differentiate in some cases...and there should be no embarrassment or shame in making a mistake such as this...or in this case 2 people making the same mistake.

What's most important is the error was corrected...lesson learned.

This is the same way that I interpret the comment. SGC has a lot of integrity and I don't think they would insult collectors, especially through email where their comments could be posted for other clientele to see.

One of my mantras is that email is a fine way to impart information but a lousy way to communicate. Intent can be misconstrued. I can think of two clients (at least) that I have lost because of hasty emails by my staff that were misconstrued. Sometime talking is better. Maybe you should have your dad call the person he has been communicating with with openness and start over.

As for what I do when I am attacked personally, I usually go with the crane kick. When you do it right, no can defense. :)

Correct me if I am wrong Scott, but I believe you and your dad have owned and maybe wtill own legitimate T206 brown backs (your dad once sent me pictures one 2). If this is the case than you should have been able to tell when you received this card that it was not a legit brown back.

If this is the case, I think you need to assess your decision to try and resell the card as a brown back and not return it when you initially received the card.

Lee

I know the card was up for auction before being pulled but beyond that is there another thread containing the Who/What/When/Where of this card and the dispute?

seems like you are taking an overly-defensive stance to what sgc said. with your family knowledge and hobby connections of t206s i would think you can differentiate between a black and brown OM and not have to rely on SGC. knowing only bits and pieces here and there (maybe intended)...so i could be wrong about the details but it's bad practice to pass this off to another auction house when rea has already rejected it.

imo sgc meant no malice with that statement as anybody with common sense reading the other thread can see other veteran t206 collectors in a very respectful and nice manner as to not step on any toes asking how the card made its way to auction with the history and ownership behind it.

Tim
 

look for

Goodwin is up

Found it Jim, Thanks.

After reading through that thread there seems to be a lot of unknown details (at least to me) that make it difficult to have an opinion on this.

Amen to that.

The card did not look remotely brown to me. Just saying.

I'm with Gary etc. on interpreting the email. Without the entire context its hard to say what someone intended to say and this is especially so in an email which is a less than exact form of communication.
Although it may be too late now you might want to ask Sean what me meant by his comment before construing it as malicious and insulting....
The remark seems a bit snarky to me, but that's all. Hopefully you and your father will be able to resolve your real problem with SGC without creating a satellite conflict.....
If I sound too harsh, remember I don't know the entire story and context.

Scott, it’s not a brown Old Mill IMO.I would bet that the top 10 T206 guys I know would agree with me on this.

As for having knowledgeable collectors review it?

With one phone call you and your dad could have had plenty of folks look over this card who know T206’s you know that.

Also you guys own browns you could compare them side by side not many folks can do that. I find it odd that you of all collectors would think this is brown? I can’t tell you how many times you guys have shared cards with the strangest of tiny little details of oddity but this one slips by?

So why would you consign this card to Goodwin and be so bummed that it was pulled when it’s so obvious it’s not brown? Why Scott?

As for compensation there is no way you guys have anything close to brown Old Mill money in this card, so looking for anything close to that is like winning the lottery on SGC’s labeling mistake. SGC should give you guys a few hundred bucks for the trouble a more than fair rate for a G-VG southern league card.

Then all of you SGC, Goodwin and you and your dad should be glad nobody got dealt a bogus card in a mislabeled holder.

You of all folks should know the sting of getting a card in a holder which isn’t legit.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Quan is right there are quite a few facts being left out here......

Lee B., Peter, Jim R. Wonka. 4 direct strikes to the head of the nail.

No one can assess this situation without basic facts which were not provided, apparently intentionally.

I don't see it
 

I don't see how that quote provided can be insulting or deemed to be a personal attack. I guess without a full context of the conversation or some of the oter background, perhaps, but that doesn't look at all even aggressive as I read it.

Yes indeed....

Basic facts were not omitted intentionally, but rather to simplify a complex situation. Nonetheless here they are:

1. At some point years ago my dad purchased a slabbed SGC card labeled as a brown old mill. I vaguely remember my dad telling me about it but I certainly don't remember how, from who or at what price he purchased it.

2. The card was held for several years and recently my dad wanted to sell it.

3. We know quite a bit about T206s and understand that the 'typical' brown backed old mills are both trimmed and very light in color -- which this card admittedly does not have.

4. When this card was consigned to Bill Goodwin for his auction - My dad made sure to mention these particular issues AND ALSO mentioned that when he compared it side by side against other typical old mill cards with a loupe --- all the others were black while this one was brown. My dad asked Mr. Goodwin to consider listing the card on this basis. Bill then inspected the card, agreed with my dad's assessment and listed it in his auction.

5. Questions were (not surprisingly) raised about the card being auctioned and SGC requested to review the card.

6. SGC decided that the card should not have been labeled as a brown old mill.....a claim that my dad disagrees with --- but given that it was submitted to SGC, I suppose that is their call.

7. SGC asked for what the purchase price of the card was and when it was bought. Here's where the fireworks started. My dad did not have any records of the purchase price or even when or from whom it was bought. Dealer's might think that's foolish --- but we collect primarily for fun. I know that I've personally almost never kept a record of any card that I've bought --- simply because it doesn't matter to me.

8. SGC and my dad discussed compensation and couldn't agree to a number. Both parties were at an impasse. And the matter just kind of hung there for about two months.

Those are the facts from as unbiased a standpoint as I am capable of presenting them. Up until that point I saw no fault with how either SGC or my dad conducted themselves.....

THEN - SGC started to personally attack the character of my dad, with snide and childish / antagonistic remarks. I'm sure that my dad is just as frustrated with not having the situation resolved as SGC is ... but he didn't assault SGC's character, because up until that point it was just a business issue. That is the point that I have issue with.

SGC has the right to feel differently about how the situation should be resolved - but their insults are out of line.

If your Dad still feels this is a Brown Old Mill, then all SGC needs to get back to you is the unslabbed card and the grading fees, correct? What else are you out?

Can you elaborate on the insults?

The card at issue, and a brown one. No way, in my opinion...

Besides the fact that it looks black the player on the front makes it IMO and others impossible to be a Brown Old Mill.

Why would the COLOR look any different under a loupe?? :confused::confused:

Because there is more of it, of course. And it looks bigger, too!

not even close
 

wow, those two cards are not even in the same game.

here are my questions: did SGC contact the auction company directly and request the card to be sent to them? did the consignor give permission for the card to go to SGC? did SGC crack the card out of the holder before reviewing it with its owner?

How do you deal with capital gains if you don't know your basis?

“1. At some point years ago my dad purchased a slabbed SGC card labeled as a brown old mill. I vaguely remember my dad telling me about it but I certainly don't remember how, from who or at what price he purchased it.”

From previous thread….

“Dad and I purchased this card years ago because we happened to compare it against several black examples and saw a difference in ink color.”

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...h-confused.jpg

Really now I’m really confused? Seems to me if the above point #1 is true you bought the card based upon the label, or you bought the card raw something doesn’t make sense Scott?

“4. When this card was consigned to Bill Goodwin for his auction - My dad made sure to mention these particular issues AND ALSO mentioned that when he compared it side by side against other typical old mill cards with a loupe --- all the others were black while this one was brown. My dad asked Mr. Goodwin to consider listing the card on this basis. Bill then inspected the card, agreed with my dad's assessment and listed it in his auction.”

Was the card rejected by REA yes or no? If so why did you consign to Goodwin and did you make Bill aware the card was rejected by Rob Lifson and REA?

Also is it not also true you have an outstanding balance with Goodwin for an unpaid lot for whatever reason? And that your recent consignments were to offset this balance and that this card going for Brown Old Mill money would have significantly reduced said balance if in fact it does exist?

I’m happy to be corrected on any of these points Scott please do if I’m wrong. But I’m being direct and honest here.

This is tough for me to call this out as I consider you two collecting friends and highly respected collectors. But the facts and the details on this just look bad and I can’t help but feel a little disappointed here.

From outside looking in here’s what I see…

You guys know brown Old Mill cards, you own them. In fact you know them enough that you recently even sold Pat Chan a multi-strike brown and black Old Mill card where the brown was so subtle most collectors would have missed it.

You have a card which is at best questionable brown and isn’t hand cut, the wrong player and you guys don’t raise an eyebrow? You don’t show the card to Jim R, Myself, Dan McKee, Brian W, Art M, Ted Z, Scott M or any other collectors whom you see and or talk to quite often? Heck you mentioned this card to Jim R about having a factory cut brown Old Mill and Jimmy has been chasing me and you for a scan for a year..LOL. (Like a dog with a bone that guy Jim R)

You decide to consign the card to REA a very reputable seller and he sends it back and says no way even in the holder. The same seller who contacted Jim and me for help on the overprint he had. Rob is the kind of guy that if he thinks something can be a new variation he’s not afraid to ask for help from fellow collectors especially of that helps leads to a successful auction and commission for REA and the seller.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...s-confused.png

Then you consign the same card to Goodwin whom you may or may not have an outstanding balance with for an unpaid lot. You then hype the auction on the main board.

When the card is questioned you say it was... “Dad and I purchased this card years ago because we happened to compare it against several black examples and saw a difference in ink color.” But then you claim the card was bought in a holder labeled brown Old Mill.

Now you claim that SGC is attacking your father and or making childish remarks. In a way calling out their creditability and way of handling customers.

That about sums up the timeline as I see it…

You guys as collectors given your experience and given the rejection by REA should have really had this looked at prior to listing it with anybody IMO. It just seems that from the outside looking in on this you were passing off questionable potato labeled as an apple to the next guy.

Also you guys as collectors have always kept choice cards I know that I’ve seen your collection. A true Brown Old Mill factory cut new color variation on a new player I just think that would be one you guys would never let go basically one of a kind.

I can’t imagine you guys passing off even a questionable card given your collecting history with the bad Drum and the overprint that many folks worked very hard on making you guys whole on by busting Pat Chan.

Scott I hope I’m wrong on all this but it just looks odd and a bit bad.

Cheers,

John

I am biting a large protion of my tongue here but I will say one thing on this:

"but we collect primarily for fun. I know that I've personally almost never kept a record of any card that I've bought --- simply because it doesn't matter to me"

I am calling bullshit on this statement.

Touche' Wonka for stating the facts! You will always be my hero!
And you stated them softly as the Levy's were good friends of yours, you should be a politician.

All of you here know that I am not a fan of 3rd party grading as I have made that very clear. Cards I submit get double checked mainly for this reason as the companies feel I may be trying to set them up for something like this incident.

In this particular case, my opinion is that SGC has done nothing wrong, nor is liable for anything except mislabeling a flip.

As Eric stated, they should return the card raw plus the grading fees plus all shipping involved and call it a day. SGC has my full respect and support in this matter. Eric, you have a good head on your shoulders.

Also, I would like to state that there is no way the pictured card above is BROWN, or even close to BROWN print. Even Art M. who is legitimately color blind can see this Old Mill is not BROWN. No offense Art.

This entire incident has been driven by one thing and one thing only.

The dollar.

Making an assumption here?

John,

I consider you to be a personal and hobby friend.

To the best of my knowledge the card was purchased slabbed from SGC as a brown old mill.

I appreciate yours and others efforts to bust Chan and to make my dad whole on a clearly bad transaction. I think that drawing parallels to him here is grossly unfair however. What Chan did was fraudulently create a card with the intent to profit from it. What my dad did was buy a card (that was very likely preslabbed), hold it for awhile and re-auction it. IF my dad thought that is was black and he tried to pass the proverbial hot potato, I could accept the bulk of your criticism. BUT If my dad thinks (which he does) that the card is 'browner' that a typical Old Mill and decides that it should be auctioned off as it's labeled...even if it's not light brown - there is nothing unethical about that.

Did he offer the card to REA first and get turned down, Yes. Did he offer it to Bill G. next, Yes. Does he still think that it's visually different from other Old Mills, Yes. Do we recognize that it's not as brown as most other brown old mills -- of course we do. But that fact was never hidden from Bill G, it's not hidden now. Bill G. pointed out the differences that were noted under magnification.

Yes it's true that we are quite experienced T206 collectors and I know that Old Mills are usually 1) trimmed 2) on certain players 3) light brown. But I have seen exceptions ... even beyond this card. For example a card with 3 strikes of Old Mill on it ... with one being light brown. Just because this card doesn't fit a pre-described pattern doesn't mean that it's not different from others.

If I was ashamed that my dad brought a card like this out for auction, I'd probably be silent on the issue ---but I'm not, not then and not now. You can disagree with my dad or with me, and I'll respect that. But if I held a different point of view than you, I wouldn't call into question your integrity - especially if the difference was based purely on how something perceived to look from a scan. Which is the whole point of my post in a nutshell.

Scott are you saying the scan is not accurate?

The scan probably is a fair representation of the card. The difference is admittedly subtle - but it is there.

Difference of what is subtle?? The one on the left is a common black and the one on the right is the rare Brown. Am I missing something here?? post #27

If your Dad still believes the card is Brown, why not just get the raw card back from SGC and a refund of the grading fees?

Does one have to request the "Brown" label on the holder or did SGC just mistakenly label it as "Brown?" SGC cards have serial numbers on them so I'm assuming they keep records of who originally submitted the card, right?

Brown label must be requested. I had to on both of mine.

I think SGC just grades for fun, so they might not keep records.

Difference is this.....

Stack up 10 Old Mills of your choosing and then throw this one into the mix. Hand me a loupe and I'll pick out the 'brown' one. And it will be the same card every time - because it's actually different.

Would you like to wager your collection on this Scott? I will make a wager that you can't do that if I provide 9 other blacks that are similar in condition and with the same exact markings 10X magnified. Wonka has agreed to back me and help me with this if you are game. It is a hefty wager but I am a gambling man myself. Dan.

So what Scott is really saying is that the card they have is a variation of the color black that looks more brown than most other blacks, but definitely isn't a Brown Old Mill as we know them correct?

WOW Tim, can you say that real fast 3 times for me??

I might be up for that challenge gents.

It's my dad's card (and almost entirely his collection). But since we believe in the visual difference, if we can agree to the rules, and if my dad agrees - I'm game. What are you putting up as the prize to be won?



SGL

I have an average T206 collection I can anti. Of course you would have to look at it and decide if it rates as collateral. Sounds like a fun challenge! Maybe the board members could have a friendly poll or vote at the top of the thread.

Not a wise bet, as the card in question almost certainly has some other distinctive marking or toning someplace that could be relied on to pick it out of a crowd, and in any event even if it is slightly lighter (as from a light strike?) that doth not make it brown.

I agree Peter, he wouldn't be looking at the color. But I would examine the card first and my 9 would have the exact same distinctive marks before we did this.

me...
 

me....<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=480 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/U5x9AwX60fE&hl=en_US&fs=1& allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>[/php]</EMBED>

The outcome of of the bet would be entertaining but in my opinion wouldn't change anything regarding the card. Based on what we know about Brown Old Mills this card is not one so the flip is wrong and stating it's a Brown Old Mill is misleading.

If you feel it's a color variation of a black Old Mill that is fine but it should be presented as just that and not Brown.

Scott, I hope that’s not a guilty conscience popping up here?

I never compared you to Chan in any way sorry if you think I have you should have no reason to feel like that dirt bag.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...small/long.jpg

I only said I think you guys should know better on this one. Think about it for a second…

REA says no way
Collectors say no way
SGC says no way, our bad
Yet you still proceed with auction why?

Easy the same reason a lot of folks do they can hide behind third party mistakes. Which has become the norm and it’s a very sad thing.

If you’re dad is wrong which is likely the case no skin of your back or the auction houses back ughh. The third party grading company gets the bill, and the poor winning bidder gets a bad taste in his or her mouth with a large purchase.

In the end I have little sympathy for the TPG as it’s their business and they know the risk of returns. They also should make the effort to gain the knowledge to avoid these situations from the start.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...tled_2.bmp.jpg


However that doesn’t mean we should abuse their overall lack of knowledge on a particular issue when we can which is often done. The real sympathy goes out to the collectors who get bummed by missing a needed c ard or having a troubling buying experience within our hobby.

I think collectors the caliber of your dad and yourself and others here. Owe the hobby a little more than hiding behind slabs.

We knew cards before these folks came along we should be big enough and honest enough when cards like this come up to really set the pace for others. By doing real due diligence work and making 100% sure not only our opinions on a card are satisfied but the collecting community stands behind it as well…it’s just better that way for everyone that way IMO.

Added if this card was Brown SGC wouldn’t be changing their minds and if you really had big coin in this card I would think you and your dad would remember the details of such a unique card presented in an SGC holder? (dont be mad at my joke image, really wanted to use this :))

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...s/epqpfnjm.gif

I can't help but think you would remember when it was bought, for how much and who it came from, the details behind the card and the story. I would think you would have this prior to requesting money from SGC.

You certainly wouldn’t be so easy to say “hey if SGC thinks it’s not brown it’s all good will take a bath, we just don’t like the snide comments” that just doesn’t add up to me Scott.

Not mad or anything just confused and a little disapointed. You guys know cards way to well for this story to click and make any sense to me. Perhaps I'm putting you guys on a higher pedstal than I should and that's where the disapointment is coming from on my end.

Cheers,

John

Leon I fancy myself on obscure internet crap, but a video of a guy eating popcorn LOL. Do I even ask where you found that or how... :)

The assumption that Scott has sold a card in his life for more or less than what he paid for it? Yes.

Jeff,

You are absolutely right that I should be keeping detailed records of each transaction. In reality, almost all of my own card purchases are either directly for my rather meager collection (which rarely get sold) or as a gift (usually to dad).

But I guess laziness is damn poor legal excuse and if I'm gonna be dumb enough to admit this to the world .... I ought to be smart enough to change my ways.

leon, wonka, to frickin' funny. popcorn guy. man, what makes me laugh sometimes.

SARCASM! That's The Ticket. SARCASM makes the world go 'round

As much as I love sarcasm...good old ass kissing seems to be what makes the world go round!

Scott-you consider Wonka a personal and hobby friend-is that right? but you used the money we got you back from Chan to outbid him on a Plank that you know he was bidding on and needed for his collection. Also I believe you own a PSA 4 Plank.:confused:

I held on to the information because I wanted to give you two the benefit of the doubt but you brought this to the board.

The personal attack seems to be on SGC-looks like you wanted SGC to pay out brown Old Mill money to cover a auction debt.

I think your ego and the mighty dollar has put a major dent in your integrity.

I think you should have taken what SGC was offering and let this one go.

There is still some other facts left out but not needed as the damage is done.

note to self-keep Wonka on you side, you will be very unhappy if he is not.

Jeff,

Cards are always sold for a loss.

Boy, the IRS could have some fun with some who post here.

Wait, wait, wait!!! We are allowed to SELL cards that we have purchased?


Damn. Please, no one tell my wife.

Jim,

First, I do consider Wonka to be a friend. And if my dad outbid him on a Plank it was almost certainly because I didn't know he was bidding on that same card. And my sincere apologies if I heard that information and somehow forgot.

If I had a "do-over", I'd ask for a few others opinions to see if they thought what my dad I and saw was worthy of some sort of variation and would probably have submitted the card to SGC for their opinion pre-auction. To be perfectly fair, the whole situation could have been handled in a more pristine fashion on our end.

I am just really upset with how SGC handled the whole incident. To some they have a "sterling reputation". But I thought that the combination of how SGC forces a resolution that they deem acceptable on the timeframe that they deem acceptable and then insults those that won't comply with their demands was very poorly handled.

I'm willing to acknowledge that my dad (with my advice) could have handled the situation with greater care. As for SGC their response to this whole thread ......

....... insert sounds of crickets ..........

Scott-you consider Wonka a personal and hobby friend-is that right? but you used the money we got you back from Chan to outbid him on a Plank that you know he was bidding on and needed for his collection. Also I believe you own a PSA 4 Plank.


Is this what they mean by No Good Deed Goes Unpunished?

Matt has twice posed a valid question: If the owner believes the card is brown, then what's it matter what a third-party grading service says? The mantra of many experienced collectors on this board -- many T206 collectors, to be accurate -- is they don't need a third-party service to tell them what they have and what condition it's in. So if it's a brown back, it's a brown back, right? All that would be owed is the grading fees, correct?

I thought the point of the thread was to see what we thought, so was it really to try to get a different reaction from SGC? Seems that SGC has spoken, maybe not perfectly, but nothing else presented seems to require any further reply from them.

"I think your ego and the mighty dollar has but (put) a major dent in your integrity."

The nail has been struck firmly on the head!!!

Nice Jim, and Greg S., u will always have a friendly spot on my table at any National!!!!

How much did SGC offer you and what were you demanding?

Thanks Dan
 

as you can tell my wife is the English major-not me.

I really hate these kind of threads and usually stay far away from them but sometimes you just need to post...:(

with how this thread is going...sgc should lower their offer, whatever it was.

I'm consistently amazed at how open people are out here -- a public chat board -- about flouting the tax laws. Spend a year with the IRS doing a full audit and I'm guessing the behavior will change.

Jeff, you are so right! As a federal employee, I know some would be scrambling if Uncle called them out!!

Can we please see exactly what SGC wrote to be so insulting? I am not a huge fan of grading but SGC is by far the best and I personally know most of those guys and I would be very shocked if they were unproffessional.


At this point in this incident, I am standing behind SGC. They are good guys who will listen to reason and will listen to information from people.

Scott
 

The back of this T206 has been noted and has been debated here considerably. However, I don't think the front of
this card has been noted. It's my understanding that pictured on the front of this card is Dolly Stark. Please correct
me if I am wrong ?

Assuming it is Dolly Stark (San Antonio), then this card could NEVER be a Brown OLD MILL. As, none of the 6 Texas
Leaguers exist with the Brown OLD MILL backs. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, there has never been a factory-cut
Brown OLD MILL.

What I don't understand regarding this situation is......with all the T206 expertise on this forum, why didn't you or
your Dad get a 2nd opinion from one of us ?
Most of us are very willing to offer our opinions on these cards.

Regards to you and your Dad.


TED Z

Thanks Ted, we are way passed that point.
But I do appreciate your support as always!!

I sure wish that we'd get back to threads about breaking out cards that have received decent 3pg grades and bitching about the new grade received and/or complaining about how big a screwing people took when an auction house made a mistake and fixed it by 100% meeting the unreasonable demands of the purchaser. The current thread doesn't meet either of the above criteria and I'm concerned that the board may be diverted into spending too much time looking at silly issues such as this should this thread continue. Sincerely,

Kenny Cole

How's the weather?

If it was purchased slabbed, shouldn't Hank and Scott be reimbursed the approximate difference between a brown and black old mill (thousands of dollars) as well as grading fees? This isn't a Heinie/Honus Wagner error, this is a distinct back type error made by SGC that has to impact someone. I'm sure Hank paid well more than black old mill prices if it was slabbed....

Lineup
 

I'd like to see a lineup of at least 5 of Scott's Old Mill black backs, and the Stark card back for comparison.

It can't be a Brown Back as we are defining the hand-cut ones. However, I've seen some faded black backs that look like a dark brown on Old Mills. Let's give Scott a chance to show the 'lineup'. No bets - just some good scans all done with the same scanner. I believe Scott & his Dad when they say the card looks 'browner' than the usual Old Mills. And we know SGC and Goodwin are not dummies when it comes to T206.

Ron

Ron - There in lies the big problem I have with this whole situation. Given what we know about Brown Old Mills this card can't be one. It may be a different shade of black that looks more brown than other black examples but to call it a Brown Back is extremely misleading. You can line up all the black Old Mills you would like but even if there is a variance and this one looks like it may be a shade closer to brown than black this card is not a Brown Old Mill.