Please Explain the Pete Rose Rookie to Me
 

As a relative new comer to the hobby, off in my little corner collecting pre-war, I had no idea the Pete Rose 1963 Topps rookie card was worth so dang much.

Granted, the REA example is the cream of the SGC crop, but still, for a post war card, of which SGC has slabbed 347, how can this card possibly be going for the same price world as a T206 Plank?

Can someone explain this madness to me?

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/v...g?t=1272661369

How much did the Rose sell for?

It's the grade. SGC 98 is the equivalent of PSA 10.

Something about swimming in the sea of mediocrity. There may be 347 SGC grade Rose RCs and thousands of PSA graded ones and tens of thousands of ungraded ones, but the Gem Mint copies are far and few between.

I know there is only one PSA 10 and it went for somewhere north of $80k when it was auctioned...

Because some people buy the label not the card, plain and simple. Crack it out, resubmit, it comes back a 9, and poof. :D

I've never been able to see the difference between a 9/96 and a 10/98. I most certainly can't distinguish between a 98 and a 100.

Could it be the McMullen family trying to corner the market?

The biggest difference I have seen between a 96 and 98 is centering. I have seen 96 cards that are slightly off (60/40), but a 98 should pretty much be 50/50. Now the difference between a 98 and 100....your guess is as good as mine.

Personally, i let the fools part with all their money paying outrageous prices for a card that you cant tell the difference of. What truly is the difference between mint and gem mint. and is it worth 80k to you to show off that difference?

Rose rc's guide in Beckett for $1000 in nr mint condition. Personally, i wouldnt pay more for one then that.

My belief is if you took (hypothetically) 100 9s and 100 10s, cracked them all out and resubmitted them, there would be no statistical correlation between the first and the second grades.

you can buy a psa 8 and then about 100 other great cards or 1 psa 10 rose!

That is a best case scenario. However there is still a chance that Pro or CSA would holder it as Gem Mint. The good news is that the graders at SGC will stand behind the grade.

I don't see how anything in this hobby can shock anyone within the hobby. You would get a Plank graded, no? You don't think a Gem Mint Plank should get more than an ungraded beat-up Plank? It's the same principle with the Rose, except a Gem Plank would sell for a LOTTT more than $80,000.

FWIW, it is a tough card...during my professional ballcarding days, I owned scads of T206, a couple of Namath Rookies, but I never had a single Rose rookie walk into my shop.

A Rose rookie would have run, not walked. :D

There are 53 Roses on eBay and something tells me that if you are willing to spend $80K on a Rose card, you clearly have $80K to spend on a Rose card. There is a lot of money out there and people need to spend it some way. Personally, I would be happy with an 8 if collecting Rose was something you are in to.

Regards,

Larry

I totally agree. I love purchasing/upgrading to higher grade cards, but with the way I collect I could never put all my money into 1 or 2 cards when there are so many I want...but that's just me.

I understand that a high graded Plank would go for much more than $80k. This is because, of course, there are 100 Planks known to exist, but there are thousands of 1963 Rose rookies out there.

I'm just amazed that people drop this kind of coin to get the highest graded example. Especially because there is a significant likelihood, 1963 not being that far away, that more and more high graded examples will surface. And as many have said, you really can't tell the difference between these high grades, yet people will pay thousands more just because the label says its higher. That is insane to me.

Quick turnaround:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-PETE-ROSE-R...item3a5a868ff0

That is the nicest Rose rookie I have ever seen. :eek: I'm just sayin'...
JimB

Why the quick sale though? Wasnt this card just sold for 26,000 and then put back up for auction in REA and then sold for 19,000. Was this shill biding and then the seller just put it in another auction house. Who just wastes 7 grand like that? You just threw away the money to buy a straight SGC 9 for 7grand buy selling it again. Right?

Why would the PSA 10 go for $80k, but this one for $20k? Odd.

I don't really understand uber high prices for cards that are rare only because of condition. Not only is there no difference between the upper grades to the naked eye, but especially for modern cards where new cards could surface that would grade just as high.

As a footnote to this thread that I started, I'm pretty happy with the Rose I picked up in a mixed lot on REA. Just SGC 60, but a heck of a lot cheaper!

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...em_13729_2.jpg

The PSA 10 outsold the SGC
 

Mainly because of set registry competiton. There are far more people working on Registry sets with PSA than SGC. This card fits into the 1963 set as well as the Pete Rose sets all of which have heavy competition. Also some hall of fame rookie registry collectors might be in the competiton figuring he may someday enter the hall, probably posthumously.
I am pretty sure this card was probably attempted to be crossed to PSA at some point and probably rejected. That doesn't mean it isn't nice enough to be a PSA 10 they just probably didn't want to make that call in the holder. Even though I understand most of the nuances of grading I don't understand the price differences between 9 and 10. I get the premiums up to most levels but the difference between a 9 and 10 is so often just grader preference that I really don't get the prices paid for Gem Mint. You can usually see a difference between most grades, if you truly study the cards, but 9 and 10 the differences in my opinion often don't exist.

Though I wouldn't pay that much coin for the card, it is still sweet. I could see the appeal for someone with money to throw around. That's actually one of the cards that I had to show my wife when going through the catalog. She could have cared less but, you know :)

Glyn- your point just shows that for many collectors the label is the most important factor in assessing the value of a card.

HILARIOUS!!! Bought at REA for $20,000 then immediately put on the Bay for $30,000! Reminds me of the commercial where the guy wins the painting at auction then immediately wants to run the exact same painting thru the same auction again.....

My 2 cents
 

All points well made and taken. For a card like the Rose with "only" 26 PSA 9's and 1-10 ( I didn't check the sgc pop), I would tend to agree with the opinion that the "10" is over valued by some just because of the grade for which there is little difference. On the other hand with a multitude of rarities, I think there is a strong argument for "stupid" prices on high 9-10 grades - one example might be a hypothetical (nothing higher than a 4 currently exists) PSA 9 1964 Venezuelan Pete Rose.

When I first posted the eBay link, it was listed at $100,000!

M's fan...
 

Have to say, those are two really nice 5's you picked up in the Koufax and the Rose...fantastic eye appeal, at least per the scan you posted.

Yea....I thought M's fan lot was nice.........he paid a slight premium, but it was worth it because he was able to pick up everything at once....

+1

Is there another non HOF player that commands the price tag of Rose? I do not agree with the inflated auction prices...but I can understand where they come from. Pete not being in the Hall is making his RC a must have. Check out Joe Jackson's cards over the last decade. The ones that haven't doubled have tripled.

I am the new owner of this card. As you know, i won it from REA (at the last second, right before 3:00 am). I was the 5th highest bidder in the previous auction (Heros of Sports) where the card was sold for $26,715 and mad at myself for not pursued it more aggressively. The guy who won it from HOS then posted it on ebay, asking at least $40,000 (contacted him several times, and it was the lowest that he was willing to sell). Then he listed the card on REA. Before i placed the bid on REA, i spoke with REA and was told that the consigner wanted a quick flip. I know many members here thought the realized price was overpriced, but based on my knowledge, there are only 2 gem mint example of this card. The PSA 10 belong to Dmitri Young and he is not going to sell, so the SGC 98 is probably the best card in the market. I am just glad that i saved almost $7000 in less than 6 month and own the best card out there for the hit king. I don't feel that i overpay, because i believe you have to pay to get the highest quality, and to me, it certainly worth it. The price is less than buying a brand new Toyota Camry!!!

hmmm
 

I am speechless.

Congrats on your new card ichieh !! Just wanted to say, if you are happy with what you paid for the card, then that's really all that matters. :cool:

Clayton

Edit to add: I'd be driving the new Camry :eek:

Since PSA 9 or SGC 96 easily bring over $10K on ebay, i am just curious how much would you guys be willing to pay for a SGC 98? After seeing the card in person, i have to say that it is by far the best 1963 Rose card i have ever seen. :)

teetwoohsix, BTW, your new Toyota Camry would immediately depreciate in value at the moment you buy it, and i am hoping that my Rose SGC 98 would only go up in value.

ichieh, welcome to the forum!

In starting this thread, I didn't mean to say that you overpaid for the card, in the sense that you could have bought it cheaper elsewhere. Especially considering the price of the PSA 10 example, it seems that is the going rate for a gem Rose rookie.

I'm somewhat new to these big dollar auctions, and I just had never heard of these high prices for a relatively modern card.

As I've said in my earlier posts, its not my cup of tea, but I can respect your pursuit of a card that you've been chasing.

But out of curiosity, why the quick flip on eBay for $100k? I guess everything has a price, and that's yours?

Well,,,,I agree with you there-and I hope your new card does increase in value for you,if that's what you want.I have no issue with what you spent,or what it's worth-it's your $$ .My post was sincere, and I would buy a Camry instead-only because I don't collect 60's cards. ;)

Better yet, I would've bid on some of the T206 lots to add to my collection,but at the moment,I am not working with those kinds of funds for cards..........maybe next year.Congrats on your purchase!!

Sincerely,Clayton

M's_Fan, if you look up SMR, 1979 OPC Gretzky PSA 10 sold for over $80K, and the Topps version sold for over $25K. From my source, the Tom Seaver Pop 1 PSA 10 was sold for over $100K few years back. The bottom line is, since it's the best or the 2nd best card, you can pretty demand the price. There were many private sale, and some of the numbers i heard are astronomical.
To answer your question, i posted on ebay because
1. curious what kind of offers would receive (so far the highest is $21,500)
2. show case the card. Call it vanity, since my wife doesn't approve my investing in BB cards, i can only share the fun with the rest of you :)
3. perhaps Pete Rose himself may buy the card now for $100,000 ;)

teetwoohsix,
I am not rich, but am fortunate and keep a small saving. The stock market is too volatile to invest, and the bank pay less than 1% for my money in CD. I watched Pete Rose growing up, and despite all controversies, i respect him as a player who hustled and gave his 110% day in and day out. You are absolutely correct, pre-war cards probably could preserve better value over time, since the supply is so much more limited. But this is not just about money, sometimes you go with your heart instead of your brain. All i can say is, since i won the card, i have been too excited to sleep more than 6 hours per day. I have been acting like a little kid who just open his Christmas gift and found out that the gift is something that he has been dreamed of.

Agreed!!! I bet the seller of the card through REA looking for the "quick flip" is sick about losing $7,000 on the card! Anyway, SWEET ROSE!! Good luck with your flip/showcase!

I usually refrain from starting any crap on this board but.... HAHAHAHA.... I just don't get it....

If it "legitimately" sells for $100K, I might get it...

I started to read the thread, then I looked on ebay for Pete Rose rookies and found this very card on ebay for $100K. I then further read the thread. I figured that someone would post this card in this thread and just like I figured, there was a post!

I guess I'll never understand buying the label... Seriously, I'm not poking fun at the buyer but.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... I wasn't sure whether I should laugh my ass off or stare at this thread in utter amazement... ok, just to lot everyone know (though most don't care)... I laughed my ass off...

This reminds me of the time that one of my buddies (who lives in San Diego) was on ebay in the middle of the night after getting totally trashed... he woke up the next morning to find out he BIN'd a couple of EXPENSIVE tickets to a Chargers/Patriot game.... IN NEW ENGLAND.... HAHAHAHA - I'm sorry....

63 is a tough year, highly sensitive, I think this was a good buy. If it could be crossed over to PSA10 would instanly triple in value or more, or if held until Pete Rose death it should double overnight. I don't see many other, if any more equal grades coming out on this card, and even if they do shouldn't affect value to much. If anything has been shown from the latest REA auction it is that a quick flip can cost a lot of money.

:eek:

ichieh
Are your posts serious?

"i am just curious how much would you guys be willing to pay for a SGC 98?"
Evidently less than you since everyone on this board could have bid on it

"you can pretty demand the price"
Really? good luck getting your 100k

benchod
i think we all agree that the card would not sell for $100K, at least not this year or anytime soon. I came up with the number because it's the same figure that the previous owner asked on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/1963-Topps-PETE-R...item53df2c435e

speaking of crossing over, how is your experience with crossing a high value card to PSA? Will they be biased and refuse to cross over to a psa holder because it's in SGC holder?

IMHO it's artificial value, driven by an essentially arbitrary flip (how can a card be graded higher than Mint?:confused:), unrelated to the merits of the card (could you pick it out of a crowd of 10 9s? I doubt it), but what the hell if it makes you happy that's great. And given that there are many others who think as you do, it may well turn out to be a decent investment.

Yes.

Peter_Spaeth
I absolutely agree that the price of a pop 1 card is often artificially driven, rather than market driven. Most of the time, this type of card falls into the hand of collectors (rather than investors) and may never appear in the market again. Just think, when the last time that you saw a 1952 Mickey Mantle PSA 10, since Tom Candiatti sold the card in private transaction few years ago. I have to disagree with you on your other notion. I think that if you put this card in the mix among other 9's, most of the professionals would still be able to pick it out as a sgc 98 or psa 10). I agree that the label is for those who are not trained to grade cards and help the industry to standardize grading. They may not be right 100% of the time, but based on my experience, they are correct most of the time.

MJ maybe but on the other hand I know a guy who used to deal in large quantities of Jordan rookies and it was essentially a game for him cracking out 9s to resubmit and getting a certain percentage into 10s -- or just asking for bumps at the Parsippany show. I dare you to crack yours out and resubmit it if you are so confident. :)

I don't think the professionals could distinguish a 9 from a 10 with any great level of consistency. That's my take.

I agree with Barry. I think for the most part it's essentially arbitrary.

barrysloate
if what you were saying was true, then the industry is in big trouble. A friend of mine used to work for a small grading company similar to CSA, PRO etc. He told me the way they grade cards (by the way, my friend receive no formal training in grading, and he only has a high school diploma) they would scan the card and then enlarge it on a computer, then measure the centering, pick up any print marks, etc. They have a point system, and certain points were given for each category and the sum would then translate into a grading scale of 1-10. Not sure how SGC or PSA people grade the cards, and would like to find out.

if you look at the photos on the other sgc 96 rose cards on ebay (two of them available), you can clearly see that the centering from left to right are not 50/50, more like 65/45. Then compare the centering on the SGC 98, it's dead on center 50/50. I don't claim myself to be an expert in grading, and even i can see that difference.

It's all relative, many cards are undergraded by a couple grades and many are over graded by a couple grades. You could crack your Rose out and send it to psa and it could come back an 8, 9, 10, or even worse evidence of trimming you just never know. Your best bet is to go to a show and try to get it crossed in person, if they say no dice try to bribe the grader a couple grand and see what happens.

JohnnyHarmonica
invest a couple grand in bribing and cross it to psa 10, then bump the value 3X. That's a great investment:)

If they won't cross it at first, try and try again bribe in hand ! As you well know anything post war sells for much higher in PSA.

i will definitely try that at the National. Wish me luck:)

Good luck, whatever happens it's a great card !!

The fact that it's not already in a PSA 10 holder leads me to believe that
it might have a flaw preventing it from crossing to PSA 10. I'd have to imagine
that PSA has already looked at this card at least 1 or 2 times. It does seem to
have a minor amount of tilt.

Regardless, it's still a beautiful card.

Black spot top left corner area?

Nice looking card but I would have to agree with Chuck's comment. I would assume the card has been presented to PSA either before grading at SGC or sometime after. Far too important a card for the PSA Set Registry to not be in their holder.

No doubt this is a beautiful card.I know he charges for his auto's,but it would be pretty cool to have Mr.Rose put his auto on the slab,wouldn't it?

Clayton

I do not know whether there have been attempts or not prior to the consignment, but per consigner, he assured me that he has not attempted to cross to PSA 10.

i would love to compare this card to a PSA 10. Anyone can provide a scan of the PSA 10?

i am pretty sure i know original submitter
 

he would have definetly submitted to psa multiple times for review. I am confident he would not have sold as sgc 98 unless he was told there was no way this would ever be a 10 and was probably given a reason.

If you assumption is true, does it mean that PSA is a stricter grader than SGC? Why would SGC put the card in a SGC 98 holder, but PSA would not? I am sure this has been debated many times before, but is it true the general perception is that PSA is more reputable than SGC, even in prewar or post war cards?

You can't make generalizations about which company is stricter. In the case of a card like this, because of what the value would be because of the set registry, there is probably a next to impossible burden getting PSA to put a 10 on it, whether it deserves it or not. Politics or whatever you want to call these external considerations enter into it for sure. If it was a common, or a Tracy McGrady rookie, they wouldn't think twice about it.

i think i agree your comment to certain degree, but SGC and Beckett have their own set registry, but public seem to favor PSA others.

PSA has been around longer and they've captured a large part of the post-war and modern card market.

Did you happen to look at the SGC96 graded 1963T Rose card that BMW has for sale ($20K)? It looks every bit as awesome as the card graded a 98. Is there really a an $80K difference in value. Perceived, maybe. Seriously, is it really worth the $80K? I don't get this... Someone could have picked up the almost 400 OJs that was sold in the REA auction for $80K. Now THAT, to me would have been money better spent. There were some pretty neat cards in that OJ lot but then again, I'm an OJ nut so a 1963T card just doesn't do it for me. I do however appreciate looking at a nice 1963T because that year is a very condition sensitive. Please don't take that as my possible endorsement of the value of the SGC98 Rose rookie (it isn't).

Fred, I find it best to not do the math in your head over such trivialities as the monetary and aesthetic differences between a 9 and a 9.5. It is simply insanity when you really focus on these issues.

BMW paid 8-10k or less for his card, here is the SGC96 just sold in REA-

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13826

The sgc98 has sold for 19k-27k. You might need to up the bribe to 5-10k.

I am not the grader, but I do see some differences between these two cards. The SGC 96 has a small printing fisheye in the upper right part of the blue. It also has a tiny white dot in the red to the right of Pedro Gonzalez's face. The SGC 96 also seems centered a bit lower than the SGC 98. Obviously these are incredibly minor "flaws", but for those interested in the difference between a 10 and 9, I am guessing those are the types of differences.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2706/63risesgc98.jpghttp://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9...sesgc96jpg.jpg

A few years ago I got a close look at a T206 Pastorius that was graded PSA 10. While the front was an absolute gem, with perfectly sharp corners and a beautiful "finish" that a pristine T206 will have, the back was noticeably off-center. None of us who saw it that night (it was at one of our Net54 dinners) understood how a card with so obvious a visual flaw received a grade of 10. It's still a mystery to me how some of these grades are assigned.

Very interesting story Barry,,,sometimes I wonder if it's who you know.........

Clayton

Clayton- no question there is some lobbying going on for higher grades. How could there not be?

Barry, I'm chaning your name to Joe for a a moment...

"Say it aint so, Joe".

I shouldn't think about the grades and difference in value that others put on that label. It makes my head hurt. I just couldn't imagine wasting my money on a label. If it cannot immediately cross over between reputable grading companies then why bother "wanting the best", because it aint.

The stock market is what it is and always has been. It's not too volatile for millions of investors and traders. The card market can be just as volatile if you invest in the wrong cards at the wrong time.
I have found the stock market to be an absolute joy the last 18 months. Alot of under valued stock were scooped up when there was a rush to sell. Like the card market, if you do your research, homework and don't let emotions get in the way of good business sense your portfolio could have risen by 40% over the same period. Not many cards turned that kind of return in the same time period.