Cobb/Cobb card in Goodwin Auction
 

Though it is a half-grade less than the Cobb/Cobb in the REA auction, I feel the one in the Goodwin auction presents much nicer. That being said, with buyer's premium it is already over $135,000 and the auction's still running. Has this card broken out of all previous price points or is this a registry battle that we see on occasion? (see the PSA 7 Lundgren in the last SCP for an example of what I mean) Is this similar to what we saw a few years ago when major separation developed between Planks and Magies? Like Wagners, will we never see this card for under $100k again?

I'm intrigued that the Cobb/Cobb seems to have broken out to a new price level, and no one has anything to say about it. In 2005, Wagners of any grade eclipsed $100k, and then their price appreciation accelerated at an astronomical rate. In just five years, the price of Wagners tripled. In 2015, may we see $250-300k as the base price for a Cobb/Cobb?

I don't know which way to look at it-are serious collectors bidding it up that high because of the true rarity of the card and they want to add it to their collection,or is it seeing this type of escalated bidding due to the # of "investors" who only care about the card for the potential return 2-5 years from now?

Clayton

I thought they slightly overpaid about 100k or more.

I feel like it was an overpayment as well BUT in a couple of years might this look like a hell of a steal? Cobb/Cobb is far more rare than Wagner after all...

Rarity is just one part of the magical value equation!

and $695 for a PSA 4 Shag Shaughnessy! :eek:

Steve

I think Larry's PSA 4 Shag sold for $800 on BST here, so that price isn't unprecedented.

teetwoohsix ... the answer is easy .....
 

*

After a while, it's easy to tell the difference between a collector, and a portfolio flipper. :)

The key words are:

Registry.
Half- grade.
Crossover. ... (not to be confused with Passover)
Value equation.
Investment.
Rare. ... (the word has lost its meaning)
SCP.
PSA - SGC - GAI.
That's just a start, I'm sure you can add more.
Notice, they rarely talk about the card ... It's always about the Munee. :)

Now ... In what group does JP, and a few others fit in?

Actually, my entire point was about the card and its transcedence. Not a single word I wrote has to do with flipping...but I appreciate you once again pulling something irrelevant out of thin air. I think collectors may finally be appreciating the true signficance of this card to the hobby.

Furthermore, how is my speculation of reasons why OTHERS may spend so much on a card (financial interest included) any reflection on me? I didn't buy that Cobb. I rarely bUy a card with interest in selling it years from now. I either try to find a card to flip immediately to fund a purchase for my long-term collection, or I buy a card with the intent of hiding it away for decades.

Sure, JP sure ... whatever you say :) .....
 

None of us are able to read .....

It was all about the card. :)

You may want new reading glasses old-timer. :) The ones you're wearing are making you read too much into things. My post was, in fact, all about the card, just like the thread title.

The shag i sold was psa 5 old mill

If this one sold for 135k then the one in REA should sell for about 260k

And it was a beaut too, Larry! I'm glad I said "think" instead of "know." :)

Only if grade is the deciding factor. That Goodwin Cobb/Cobb presented WAY better in my opinion. Perfect centering, beautiful registration...

I agree JP but who is gonna look at the front.

Of course JP of course .....
 

*

Munee was never indicated in any single one of your post.

*

*

*

Tell us JP, how long have you been feeling this way? :)

Ha! I love it...my favorite post of the day, Johnny! ;)

How long have I been feeling that the Cobb/Cobb has transcended its old price points? I guess about 48 hours now. Everytime I see one of your posts, I look for a decoder ring. I know they are supposed to be humorous, I just don't always get them...

Look again JP, look again .....
 

*

Every single thread, or post that you've been involved in since you arrived on this forum ... is about MUNEE.

I know that to some, this is difficult to accept, but this forum was originally a vintage card forum, and not the Wall Street Journal.

All I'm saying is that this forum is drifting more, and more away from the actual vintage card topics.

It makes collectors want to look for a real VINTAGE forum.
If that's what Leon wants ... that's what he 's going to get.

JP, you don't need a decoder ring ... you need a course in English comprehension. :)

Ah, you're finally typing in English...much easier to read. I've been here for 3 or 4 years, and not every post has been about money.

Money in many ways drives the growth of interest in the hobby...it makes headlines. Just because I talk about the price of the Cobb/Cobb doesn't make the hobby all about money for me. Money, in this case, is a very relevant thing to talk about as we just saw an unprecedented price for a card. That in itself should spark some interesting conversation about THE CARD itself.

I for one have grown increasingly skeptical of Goodwin auctions. A few auctions back they had t206 lower level HOFers in psa9 going for close to
50k. Either they have the greatest customer base in the universe or
something is not kosher.

Also, Joe P., there is no need to be a fatalist. This board isn't dying. And you don't need to take your ball and play elsewhere. There's plenty of room here to talk about everything.

I see nothing wrong with this posting. It IS about the "munee" in this case. And like it or not Joe, "munee" is a KEY ingredient to the hobby. If you want a hobby that doesnt have such a focus on the "munee", then why dont you start a collection of washers.

Watch it, Chicago, Joe's spelling is "cuntayjus"!

Leon ... I don't know what you did but .....
 

It had to be something that didn't go down well with someone in a higher place. :)

I can speak in two, or three languages, but this guy wouldn't get it in any of them.

Most of the current newbies have their eyes on the ball, but there must have been a forum that did a little house cleaning, because you have a couple that just plain don't want to get it.

Leon, whatever you did ... beg for forgiveness ... or you gonna end up with the Wall Street Journal. :)

Wall Street Journal? Its completely impossible to make a total seperation of cards and money Joe. Especially at the level of some of the collections here! There are plenty of hobbies that you can enjoy without worrying about dollars. I hear beanie babies are basically worthless, as are pogs, washers (as I recommended earlier), and possibly postcards or matchbooks. If you really want a "financial disconnect" in a hobby, why dont you try one of the above suggestions? But when a piece of cardboard sells for 6 figures, its IMPOSSIBLE to not discuss the financial aspect of it!

Let me take care of two canary birds with one post .....
 

*

To the Flipper Twins:
Please don't think that I'm one of the thin skins on this forum, because if you do, you will be making another one of your mistakes.

Let me start with the sonny boy from the Second City.
Lad, I've handled more high ended cards before you were out of diapers, and discovered the T206 set.
If you doubt that, just ask Lew Lipset, Mark Macrae, Leon's partner Scott Brockelman, Dan MaKee and Jim Rivera.

One of your post was about you going to a big show that had 150 tables.
Lad, I don't know how to break this to you .....

Back in the mid '80's thru the '90's, I would select a weekend and fly out of the Big Apple to a show ... let's say the West Coast ... I would fly out say on a Thursday to Long Beach, and then fly out to a Lee show in San Fran on Friday night.
Each show had anywhere between 600 to 1000 tables.
Lots of cards .. lots of choices .. lots to learn about them .. lots of dealers .. much to learn about them, and visa versa .. lots of cardoholics .. much to learn from each other.
It was at a Lee show in San Fran, that I picked up one of my biggest finds, just before I rushed out to the airport to catch my flight to NYC.
I'll spare you all the details, but I'll tell that it was an old box of chocolates, filled with over 800 of the nicest grade T's that I ever seen.
I had been working on a T206 set of whatever grades.
That box of better grade T206 & T205's, forced me to work on two sets.
The Beater, and the Better set.
I only need one to complete the better, and eight for full completion of the beater.

JP ..... you're almost a mirror image of the Second City Kid, but not quite. :)

From what I've heard, and listened to what's coming from the mouth of The Flipper Twins ... they are not dummies But ... they're trying awfully hard to be. :)

If they listened more, and talked less ... they might become usefull contributers to the community.

There's nothing wrong with being a Flipper, my problem with them is that they don't have the cojones to acknowledge the fact ... They are what they are.

Oh yes, before I forget .....
On two occasions I happened to stand up, and defend The Second City Kid when he was being jumped by the inhabitants of Slab Haven.

I now want to apologize to the warm, and kind inhabitants of Slab Haven for my thoughtless action.

There, I said it ... Carry on! :)

Im not here to "buddy up" with you Joe. This isnt Survivor where I feel compelled to form "alliances". You stood up for me because you thought you were right. I stated my thoughts on the financial aspect of the hobby because I feel im right. Futhermore, I never said I attended a "big show with 150 tables". I said it was a "big show with 150 DEALERS". Big difference there, and 150 dealers is a BIG show by anyone's standards.

Now lets delve into the affectionate term you use to describe me...flipper. My working definition of a "flipper" is one who is primarily interested in the short term profitability of a given area. Because I made a zero financial gain in the selling off of most of my cards, I cannot be classified as a "flipper" by MY definition. I simply redirected my area of focus, and shed off some items that no longer fit my plan. If thats considered being a "flipper", then I suppose the term can easily be applied to most members here, as im sure most members here have sold a card or two.

I have no problem with your other term of endearment for me....Second City Kid has a lovely ring to it! In fact, I respectfully request that you continue to call me that in all subsequent writings to me. However, although I am towards the younger spectrum on this forum (im 35), I wouldnt exactly classify that as being a "kid". But then again, I look at 18-19 year olds as "kids", so thats simply a matter of perspective I suppose.

the Cobb price is interesting, and I'm very curious as to what the REA Cobb will now sell for... but what a terrible thread this has become.

Agreed. The original post was fine, but it went downhill so fast I no longer know who to root for.

Indeed...yet another derailed thread.

Ignoring completely Joe P.'s rant and Chicago's falling-on-deaf-ears defense...

I would be VERY surprised if the REA Cobb passed Goodwin's. Something about the crease at the bottom of the REA Cobb is visually distracting...

Just wanted to say,after reading this thread this morning,I was pretty shocked to see where it went!!And my question,which I felt was legit,may have spiraled the thread.I wasn't trying to accuse anyone of anything,just was expressing my thoughts on why this card would be reaching such insane prices all of a sudden.

I don't feel I can apologize for asking a legit question,or for what anyone else says,but just want to be clear that my intentions with my question were not to spiral the thread!!!

Sincerely,Clayton

Clayton, I thought your post was great! Not sure why it sparked Joe P.'s finger pointing rant, but it expressed exactly some of the thoughts I was having. I wonder if the winner will ever become known. THAT would likely lead to some answers as to whether it is going to be socked away for a long-time or turned in a few years...

not your fault at all Clayton, it was a good question.

Thanks guys-I appreciate that!!;)

With apologies to the drama queens, this post is actually about cards:

I would not put the Cobb/Cobb in the Wagner class, or even in the Plank class, simply because it is the back alone that makes this card. You can complete a basic 526 card T206 set without the Cobb/Cobb, but you can't complete it without the Wagner or Plank.

Rare back collectors will always love this card, but they are a sub-set of the collector population. Collectors like me will look at this card and admire it, and then buy one with a less rare back for a fraction of the price and take that $50k and buy a bunch of other great cards.

So I think this puts a ceiling on the value and popularity of the Cobb/Cobb.

Agreed. Except for that part about "526."

As Gary Coleman would have said... "Watchoo talkin' bout Willis???"


Seriously, you meant 524, right? Please.

Yes, typo, 524.

I was a little surprised, but not shocked by the price. I think the card has been undervalued for a long time. It is a premier card in the hobby and has been for a long time. It is from the premier pre-war set and depicts one who is arguably the best player of all-time. Its rarity is legendary (4x-5x rarer than the Wagner). It would not surprise me if there is a time in the near future (or recent past) when this card cannot be gotten for less than 100k in any condition.
JimB

P.S. I would be a lot more comfortable being the second person to pay over 100k for the card than the first. The next time it happens, be that REA or whenever, it establishes a new price point, if it has not already.
JimB

Civility is as rare as a Cobb back.

I think the price was insane actually. Great card no doubt but when you consider that the Boston Garter Cobb went for 100 K, the Cobb/Cobb price from last night looks even stupider. And while cards often go up in value quickly (T206 Wanger for example), they don't go up 200% in one auction.

Sounds like the finishing price of REA's Cobb will really dictate whether this card has hit a new level...or whether someone just had to have that particular card in Goodwin's.

Hmmm I'm joning team Lichtman on Goodwin prices that make you go hmmm...

135k for that Cobb is very odd when a much nicer example is around the mid 40's right now...

Also PSA 3 American Beauty's in goodwin pulling $300+ when PSA 5 on ebay this week have gone cheaper heck even a 6 on ebay only went $130 or so more than Goodwins's PSA 3's?

Then you have the AUTH Sid Smith Brown Old Mill card which for 90% of the auction wasn't even listed as a "Brown" Old Mill card but just an AUTH Southern League card. That in it self is odd or sad Goodwin has a back set for sale in his auction in which Goodwin goes into detail about how tough Brown Old Mill's and Lenox cards are to find. Apparently they are very tough to find so tough in fact they may be for sale in your auction and you wouldn't even know. :)

Yet when the lot was corrected with less than a week to go it somehow pulled nice $$.

I can't say something is going on just looking at numbers and circumstances.

But I will say that if I you ever consign use Goodwin somehow he manages to get huge prices and get collectors to pay double and sometimes 5X what items are worth or have sold for how does he do it? :confused:

John
 

how about the Piedmont factory 42s

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...value=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&cat egory=1


http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...value=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&cat egory=1


there was a SGC 60 Elberfeld Piedmont 42 in Huggins that went for $450 plus juice in their last auction

not sure what to make of these prices but I guess I better consign to Goodwin next auction.

Dang-that Rucker Piedmont 42 went for some bucks...........

Jim, then this should go for $10k!

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Frank-Smith...#ht_1140wt_948

Wow, the prices on the backs of these cards amaze me. I think they are neat and there certaintly is a huge market for them :)

I was watching those lots in Goodwin as well as the one in Huggins. It looks like the Huggins lot was a bargain.

OK, in an attempt to get back to the Cobb/Cobb.....

One aspect of the Goodwin Cobb that seems to have been missed here is the fact that this one appears to be only the third example to not have a glossy surface (out of ~15 total examples known of the Cobb/Cobb back.

So.....~12 copies with a glossy surface - 3 copies without a glossy surface.

Could the price for the Goodwin example be due to the lack of the glossy surface?

And could we be seeing a differentiation price-wise between the two variations?

Just something to think about.

Edited to add that the Goodwin example has what I believe is the best surface condition of any example I can remember seeing. The blood-red background is immaculate! The only "problems" with the card are the four corners, and perhaps extremely slight registration issues with Cobb's image. I can't remember seeing any example of the Cobb/Cobb back that didn't have some creasing or general surface damage/wear. This by itself, could be another reason for a higher-than-normal bid. Put this together with the rarity of the non-glossy surface.....

Steve

Excellent point!

Given the number of other lots with prices that seem exceedingly high it's too difficult to say.

I think it would be easier to give credit to the lack of gloss had this price been realized in another auction.

It is absurd to compare the price of REA's at this point (6 days before the completion of the auction) to Goodwin's final price. Goodwin's was at 35K plus the juice the night before the auction ended.

Careful, careful. You don't want to be labeled a conspiracy theorist.

In defense of Goodwin and his auction (again)
 

for you Goodwin bashers with plenty of time on your hands, were you aware that most of the American Beauty cards were the AB 460 and not the AB 350 of either type???....

And that many of those AB 460's were not only the highest graded since PSA started identifying the backs , but in some cases the ONLY one ever graded....

And in the recent threads here about back scarcity no one disagreeed with the #9 ranking of that back---that is higher than Carolina Brights OR Hindu Brown according to several of the back experts (I am not one of them)

And finally, I was either the underbidder or darn close to it on almost all the AB auctions--last time I checked I was not a shill for Bill

Too many people here jump to conclusions a little too quickly when it comes to his acutions IMHO

cheers Bill Latzko

It only takes two guys with too much money to escalate a card to beyond an acceptable level. Sad part is, we will all pay indirectly in the future. It saddens me when rich folk create a market the average Joe can no longer afford to play in.

If i ever struck it rich, i could have seen myself shelling out 15k for a nice example but justifying 150k, id need to beat myself with a hammer to think this was a good idea.

This is the genius of the auction system. As Mastro is quoted as saying in Mint Condition, put two guys head to head and let them beat the bleep out of each other.

Or put one guy up against Bill Mastro's computer. Either way.

D'oh!!

Great point Jim, I think within the next year this card won't sell for below the 100k level. Great card, and definitely one of the top cards in the hobby.

Call me a naysayer, but I just don't see it. Even if it's considered part of the T206 set (which has been debated), the Cobb/Cobb back is still not required for set completion, whereas the Wagner, Plank, Magie and Doyle (NY, Natl) are.

The Cobb/Cobb back is more of a "niche" card. Really, only die-hard Cobb and T206 back collectors are interested in it. Everyone else, while I'm sure wouldn't mind owning one, can pretty much live without it.

Steve

So, there is only fifteen known cards of the Cobb/Cobb?

I believe there are 14 known and one unverified.
JimB

I respectfully disagree. I very much doubt that all 14 reside in the collections of T206 back collectors and/or Cobb collectors. I think that type of premier level card in the hobby is desirable to most collectors of pre-war cards that can afford it, regardless of whether or not they have a Drum or Uzit, or a huge run of Cobb cards.
JimB
P.S. I actually know where eight of them are and four of the eight are neither T206 back collectors, nor Cobb collectors.

No matter which side of the debate you are on regarding the Cobb with Cobb back, one thing that is undeniable is it is a great baseball card rarity. If it has in fact become the next six figure card, it is because of its incredible demand and very high profile. Maybe some owners are adding it to their T206 back sets, and maybe some don't even collect T206. Doesn't matter any more, it's now attained the status of one of the great vintage baseball cards, and always will be.

This particular Ty Cobb back card......
 

having seen it at the March Philly Show, I was stunned at the price it sold for. Obviously, it's not one of the better examples
of this very rare/very high demand "T206" type card, so this sale has set a new precedent for future scenarios of this card. I
anticipate more Ty Cobb back cards will now come out of the woodwork....both REAL and professionally FAKED ones. It begs
this question.....will the Professional Grader's be able to tell the difference ? ?


TED Z

There have been aberrational auction prices before, so I think the jury is still out on the Cobb/Cobb.

Ted - I got to handle the Goodwinn example at the Chicago show. Although the cobb/cobb in Goodwin may have been graded a 1.5, it presented in VG. It is one of the nicer examples I have seen.

scans for comparison (although the Goodwin scan is not very good)

Goodwin...
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1a_med.jpeghttp://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1b_med.jpeg

REA...
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...em_13091_1.jpghttp://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...em_13091_2.jpg

cobb/cobb
 

With Barry S., the Cobb/ Cobb is an exceptional beauty which is finally getting its due!!
i am most pleased to see this.
a T206 rarity,indeed!

congrats JimB and the other 14 lucky ones.

best,
barry

Put me on the same team.

Also, I am certainly no Cobb expert and have especially limited knowledge on the Cobb/Cobb. I just find it a bit odd that this particular card is a new find and one of the super rare "no gloss" cards. The super-sized scan leaves me thinking why the borders are bleeding and the blood red background seems to lack any pixilation. Dunno...perhaps it's just me but it just doesn't look right. Even the Cobb named seems to be strangely aligned when compared to the other Cobb/Cobb's. Hell, I just don't know.

Are you implying the Goodwin card is not authentic?

Interesting find, Kevin. I never noticed this before. The comma after "Cobb" is directly under the split of Cobb's uniform in the PSA example, and a little to the left of the split in the SGC example. The lettering is also further away from the image on the PSA example.

Kevin just likes to make alarmist claims. He rarely considers how his comments, however unsubstantiated they may be, affect others, like those who just spent 135k on a card.
JimB

Had a nice talk with Bill Goodwin today who gave me a call. Bill just wanted to take sometime to try to explain the recent prices without going into details of who was bidding etc.

While I appreciated the call I'm still beside myself on some of the prices as I told Bill.

He understood and tried to give me as much detail as he could. He told me he wanted to make an effort to reach out to me as a bidder to try an ease my concerns if I had any.

Bill also told me he also extends that same courtesy to anyone else who may have questions or concerns.

Just thought I would pass on to the folks here.

John

Goodwin PSA one
 

Personally, I don't care for the overall look of the one in the PSA holder. Besides what has been mentioned what the heck is going on with that front, top left (as we are looking at it) part of the frame that is around Cobb? It's not square. That PSA card looks a lot different, to me, than the SGC one. :eek: I am NOT saying it's not real or anything like that.....but if I were buying it I would certainly want to get a 2nd and 3rd expert opinion. The "look" is probably due to the lack of gloss that the others have, but I am in no way sure of it. regards

I would argue that Kevin really shouldn't take those kind of factors into account when giving his opinion on a card. Should he keep quiet just to not offend the new owner of the Cobb? Just my 2 cents.

I disagree
 

Jim- I disagree. I think Kevin just brought up some points about the card that he thought looked a bit odd. I just did the same thing. If I buy a high dollar card then I expect it to possibly get talked about also. If someone says a card I bought isn't good then that is their opinion. As long as I am comfortable with what I buy then I am happy. I don't mind the questions...and hope no one else would either. Just because we talk about something doesn't make it so....It's a very open forum. Remember, there are some who think that ALL E94 overprints are not good. That is their opinion. It's not mine.

supersized scan...

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1a_lg.jpeg