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T206 backs in scarcity order
This list is from my collecting expirience and is very debatable. Also, this is just to obtain one example of each back. If you try to complete a subset you will find several backs much more difficult to complete.
This list will also be different for the six super prints. 1. Old Mill brown 2. Lenox brown 3. Broad Leaf 460 4. Drum 5. Uzit 6. Hindu red 7. Lenox black 8. Broad Leaf 350 9. American Beauty 460 10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together 11. Carolina Brights 12. Hindu brown 13. American Beauty 350 no frame 14. Sovereign 460 15. Cycle 460 16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42 17. Tolstoi 18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25 19. EPDG 20. American Beauty 350 frame 21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 23. Cycle 350 24. Old Mill south 25. Sovereign 150 26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint 27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll 28. Old Mill 29. Polar Bear 30. Sovereign 350 series forest green 31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30 33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30 34. Piedmont 150 factory 25 35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25 37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 38. Piedmont 350 factory 25 |
Hi Jim
Although my experience doesn't compare to yours, my experiences would put Piedmont fac 42 at #13, Sweet Cap 460 fac 25 at #16, and maybe swap Sovereign 460 and Cycle 460. Just my opinion. Thanks again for the list and research. Mike |
Factory 42...
Jim - I noticed the Fact 42 Piedmont slid way down on your list. Interesting... I know there was a thread a few weeks back where dozens of folks were debating if Fact 42 Piedmont fell between #7 or #8 on the toughest backs list. You have it pegged way down to #16 on your list... Obviously know none of this is perfect science, but was curious as to your thoughts on that back. I know you have handled many of these over the last decade.
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Piedmont 42
I think this back is overrated but still a difficult back. You can still pick these off ebay if you look hard enough. 10 years ago you could pick up several per week, but as collectors start to hoard these they have become more scarce.
As each collector starts their collection I think the top 8 to 10 and the bottom 8 to 10 will pretty much be the same. All the ones in the middle will have a different ranking depending on what was avalible while you are collecting. There was a time on ebay when you searched for the more difficult backs, 8 to 10 sometimes even 20 examples would come up and all were a traditional auction. I remember searching for Hindus and 20 auctions were going. Now most of those examples are in collections and not going anywhere. I know between my 4 or 5 closest collecting friends we have close to 250 Hindus-that is alot of Hindus off the market and makes Hindu much tougher to obtain. Same goes for the backs above Hindu on the list and including Piedmont 42. There has always been a large number of 206 collectors but now it seems they all also collect the tough backs. In the 90s no one cared about the backs. The goal was to get one of every player crease free. Now The goal is to get every player and at least one example of each advertisement. Just like I said in my original post this is very debatable. If you took 20 rare back collectors every list would vary. If you started now Piedmont 42 would be higher than 16. I started more than a decade ago and that is where I feel it belongs. |
Jim,
Thanks for the info. The Fact. 42 info is great. Makes sense. (wishing I had started T206s in the 90s....) |
I like the list as is for the most part. I have a few of my own observations, but with just over 2 months into the hobby, not sure if they are just anomolies. IMO, the blank back needs to be taken down. As a printer's error, it was never intended to be distributed, and therefore isnt really a "variety". I also like the fact that the Cobb was ommited. In fact, about a month ago I printed out the backs list from T206 museum so I could have a checklist of sorts. Before the ink was even dry, I crossed off the Cobb and the Blank back from the list.
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T206 backs......re..PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42
I agree with Jim's list which lowers the scarcity level of this back for most of the T206's from the 350/460 series. The following
data on this page is divided into 3 sections for your complete understanding. It is the result of several surveys over the past 4 years. Section I 350/460 series (60) cards confirmed with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back Ames (hands above head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print Chase (dark cap)...............super-print Cobb (red portrait).............super-print..........DOUBLE PRINT Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Davis (A's) Crawford (bat) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Wagner (bat on right) White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Willis (throwing) Wiltse (throwing) CYoung (glove) Section II This survey of PIEDMONT 460/42 backs provides a microcosm of the six major stars in the 350/460 series (the survey was con- ducted over a 12 month period). Note that the Red Cobb with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back appears to be a DOUBLE PRINT....relative to the 5 other HOFers PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 9/17/09 Cobb (red portrait).....15 Cobb (bat).................5 Johnson (pitching)...........4 Lajoie (bat)................7 Matty (dark cap).........7 CYoung (glove)...........7 Section III The cards in the 460-only series are considerably tougher to find with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back. Only the following 12 cards from this series of 48 cards have been confirmed. List of 460-only series cards with PIEDMONT 460/42 cards...... Chase (Trophy) Devore Kleinow (Boston) Latham Merkle (throwing) Murray (portrait) Overall (blue sky) Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Seymour (portrait) Smith (Boston & Chicago) Wiltse (portrait-cap) Feel free to ask any questions regarding this data. TED Z |
Interesting observation .....
Jim, when it comes to backs, I listen to what you have to say.
Joe P. |
Thank you Jim!!This is awesome,and just what I've been hoping to see.I think you did a great job on this list,and I will use this for referance.
Thank you for your hard work,and wisdom. Sincerely,Clayton |
1. Lenox brown
2. Old Mill brown 3. Broad Leaf 460 4. Uzit 5. Drum 6. Hindu red 7. Lenox black 8. Broad Leaf 350 9. American Beauty 460 10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together 11. Carolina Brights 12. Hindu brown 13. American Beauty 350 no frame 14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back) 15. Cycle 460 16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42 17. Tolstoi 18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25 19. EPDG 20. American Beauty 350 frame 21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 23. Cycle 350 24. Old Mill south 25. Sovereign 150 26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint 27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll 28. Old Mill 29. Polar Bear 30. Sovereign 350 series forest green 31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30 33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30 34. Piedmont 150 factory 25 35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25 37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 38. Piedmont 350 factory 25 Jimmy, Great list I'm 99% there with you, I would say that after the recent Drum finds that have come to market. I would say Uzit trumps Drum today. Also I think Brown Lenox is much tougher than Brown Old Mill for what that's worth. I think today Drum, Lenox (Black) & Red Hindu all fall in the same range.... Cheers, John |
John
I didn't consider the St Louis Drum find that added 41 examples,plus 2 more at the recent Philly show and Hunts 27 probably make Uzit tougher than Drum. 70 Drums in the past few years is enough to change the rankings.
I will have to check how many brown Lenox and brown Old Mills that I know of and rethink this just a bit. |
Jim R......
The only Brown LENOX cards that I know of are Jordan (bat) and Marquard (follow thru).
We know of at least 10 different Southern Leaguer's with Brown OLD MILL backs. TED Z |
Hi Ted,
I can think of 2 more off the top of my head.... Cobb and Lajoie with Bat. I'll check my records for more tonight. Be well Brian |
I don't want to raise a ruckous here, but Ty Cobb brand should probably be #3 in the rankings, thus moving everything below it down a notch.
I also have complete trust in Jim's analysis of the relative scarcity of these. JimB |
Pile on...
Not to raise a further ruckous or derail the thread, where would T213-1 Coupon Back fit into your scarcity order, Jim ? (I just wonder for practical purposes in case at some future point Coupons are recognized as part of the T206 backs)
Thanks, JJ |
Quote:
With all but 1 or is it 2 Cobb backs displaying a glossy front, and NONE of the other 15 Cigarette companies having ANY glossy fronts, why do you think the Cobb back even belongs on this list at all? Isnt it perfectly clear these cards were produced completely seperate from all other T206's? This card doesnt qualify as a true T206 card IMO. |
Ty Cobb/Cobb back
1st....In recent times we have established (Macon, GA newspaper advertisement) that this Red Ty Cobb was
printed and issued in 1910. Furthermore, the Senator Russell collection confirms the dating of this card. 2nd....Not all 15 Ty Cobb cards have a glossy front. The very recent one in Bill Goodwin's forthcoming auction does not have any hint of gloss on its front. Incidently, I have two regular T206's that have a gloss on their fronts. TED Z |
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This has been debated extensively here in the past. In a nutshell, "T206" was a designation coined by Burdick (not by the American Tobacco Company in 1909-11) and used in the American Card Catalog to indicate the white border baseball subjects used as fronts for the American Tobacco Company brands advertisements issued from 1909-1911. We know from more than one period newspaper article that Ty Cobb brand was issued by the ATC in 1910. Burdick included it in his book as a T206 brand and it meets his qualifications. Since he coined the taxonomy and defined its parameters, I think it makes perfect sense to go with his evaluation, especially since it still meets his criteria by our knowledge today. Unless one wants to do a complete overhaul of the taxonomy and eliminate American Beauties because of their smaller size, or divide it into sets by brand, or series, or factory, I don't think a partial change to the long established paradigm is advisable. To me, it makes sense to keep the parameters as simple and straightforward as possible. I hope that helps. JimB |
Thanks for your comments Ted. I did not see them before writing mine. By the way, I think the appearance of a second example without a glossy front raises interesting questions. From what I hear, the person who consigned one to Goodwin actually found two and is keeping the other. Do you know if the other also does not have a glossy front? If not, that would mean 20% of known examples do NOT have it.
JimB |
JimB......
I am aware of the 15th Ty Cobb back, but Bill only had one at the show. I compared it closely with a couple of regular Red Cobb's.
The only discernable difference in the fronts was that the Ty Cobb back card had a richer color of red on its front. TED Z |
brown lenox examples
cobb-bat off-pretty sure there are 2 examples of this card lajoie lake leach merkle jordan willetts burch willis latham manning overall I think the ranking of 1 & 2 could go either way-I only know of about a dozen examples of each-one thing for sure is there are way less examples of brown old mill and brown lenox then there are of bl 460. coupon 1 I have not followed long enough to make an accurate ranking but I am pretty sure it would be between 4 to 8-Uzit Drum difficulty maybe just a bit easier-red Hindu -Lenox black cobb back is like brown old mill and brown lenox with around a dozen examples |
Brown Lenox and Brown Old Mill
Jim,
I did some searching of auction results and also looked at some old net54 threads. In addition to the Brown Lenox subjects you have already listed you can also add: Pfeister (Chicago N. L.) F. Smith (Chicago and Boston) Cy Young Chase There is a good chance there are possibly other subjects and/or more examples of the same subjects already listed. PS - Even though I agree that the Brown Old Mill is extremely rare I do not think that it should be listed as a standard issue back. Since all the confirmed copies are hand cut this points to this back as never having been officially issued. Jerry |
I'm sure these have been shown before, but can someone post a brown and black Lenox and Old Mill side by side to compare.
Also, on the lines of a Coupon Type 1. Would a trade for this and a Red Hindu be equal or would one have more monetary value. Assume both were the same grade of common card. Thanks, Mike |
Jerry
Brown Old Mill may not have been an issued back but it is on the back of very few t206s and is at the top of the list of most scarce.
There is no question on the top 3 backs and there is a good distance between 1-2 until number 3. There are about a dozen brown Old Mill and brown Lenox each and there are around 40 Broad Leaf 460s. Whether they were issued or not, they exist. Also whoever wants to trade a Red Hindu for a Coupon 1-I have a Coupon 1 to trade you. Coupon 1 is very tough and I will trade a Coupon 1 for a red Hindu or Lenox black. |
If the Lajoie is part of the 33 Goudey set, shouldn't Ty Cobb back be included ? I consider it part of the backs set and it should be !
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Possible new thread
moved.
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Jim R......
Something to consider......it has been my experience that AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards are a tad tougher than BROAD LEAF 350 cards.
There are only 72 confirmed AB 460 cards, while there at least 150 confirmed BL 350 cards. Therefore, the probability of finding BL 350 cards is somewhat greater than finding AB 460 cards. Just a suggestion. Regards, TED Z |
hmmm
Quote:
Before we throw this nice thread off track you might want to start a new thread with that question. It's a very interesting and good one. best regards |
Hi Jim-
I was just wondering if you were going to put together the same type of list for the 6 super prints? Thanks- Sincerely,Clayton |
Clayton
I am pretty sure Ted is working on a list for the six super prints and it should be posted soon and it is different than this one
This list is for the collector that wants to get an example of each 206 back. it is good you brought that up because they ( the six super prints) are in a class by themselves |
scarcity
Jim R.,
great work!! now i can finally throw away that old list from the infamous T206 museum site and replace it with something current and accurate. i,too, would suggest removing the blank back from the list, moving uzit ahead of drum, and AB460 ahead of broadleaf 350. top drawer, ole buddy best, barry |
T206 Backs
Jim,
With all due respect you can not assume that only a dozen copies of the Brown Lenox exist. There really has been no detailed analysis of this back type done before. Bill Brown's superset only lists 2 confirmed players. We know that this is obviously not true based on the 16 subjects already listed in this thread. In addition, this number was arrived at without really engaging others to provide input. I'm pretty sure the number of subjects will grow, as well as, the number of known examples per subject will grow. Thus, I think it should not be stated that only a dozen examples exist until the proper analysis is performed. As far as Brown Old Mills go I think the argument of including them on a rarity list just because they exist is inconsistent with removing the Old Mill Overprints from the rarity list. Just like the hand cut Brown Old Mills the overprints are also brown and hand cut. The only difference is that the overprints have the extra Factory 649 stamp on them. In my opinion all the Brown Old Mills were errors and/or an experiment. If you are going to include them in a back rarity list you should also put the Brown Old Mill Overprints back in. Just my 2 cents. Jerry |
Six Super Prints
This is not by all means a complete listing of the T206 back scarcity of the 6 super-prints, it is just a start.
We have a complete scarcity listing for the Red Cobb (that is listed here). A completely representative list that includes the other 5 super-prints requires an extensive survey. Since these cards have as many as 24 different Tobacco advertising backs. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Red Cobb scarcity list......(the other 5 super-prints have not been this thoroughly surveyed.... however, there is some cross-correlation with the Cobb). BROAD LEAF 460 DRUM LENOX SOVEREIGN 460 CAROLINA BRIGHTS CYCLE 460 EPDG PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 SOVEREIGN 350 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame) CYCLE 350 SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt) SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25 SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25 TOLSTOI OLD MILL SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30 PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25 POLAR BEAR SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25 TED Z |
Jerry
Brown Old mill with the red bar I think is an error-I doesn't even cover the original factory number.
I think brown Old Mill is another color variation just like brown Lenox or red Hindu. Maybe they are hand cut and not an issued back but they are the same as an Old Mill south back, just brown. I feel you need this back if you want to complete a back set. Also they belong at the top of the list with brown Lenox because there are way less examples of both backs then the next one which is Broad Leaf 460. I am sure more examples will be found with all three backs. I do beleive the top three stand alone because the next one, be it Uzit or Drum, numbers are around 200-250 each. |
1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown 3. Broad Leaf 460 4. Uzit 5. Drum 6. Hindu red 7. Lenox black 8. American Beauty 460 9. Broad Leaf 350 10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together 11. Carolina Brights 12. Hindu brown 13. American Beauty 350 no frame 14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back) 15. Cycle 460 16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42 17. Tolstoi 18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25 19. EPDG 20. American Beauty 350 frame 21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 23. Cycle 350 24. Old Mill south 25. Sovereign 150 26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint 27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll 28. Old Mill 29. Polar Bear 30. Sovereign 350 series forest green 31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30 33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30 34. Piedmont 150 factory 25 35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25 37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 38. Piedmont 350 factory 25 ok-I switched Drum and Uzit-because of the 70 Drums in the recent finds also switched AB 460 and BL 350 -BL 350 has alot more possibilites because of the series it is in still willing to listen to any other possible changes-and remember this list will vary for each collectors expirience-this one is just my expirience collecting 206 tough backs __________________ |
Jim
Great info and thanks for posting it Hope you've been able to get out and wet a line Bass season began for me on Saturday Jantz |
This is good stuff............
Interesting how the Red Cobb Sweet Cap 460 Factory 42 & 42 overprint,Sweet Cap 460 Factory 25,and Sweet Cap 350 Factory 25 prove to be tougher than the Red Cobb Tolstoi and Red Cobb Old Mill.
I hope to see more of the scarcity list for the other 5 super prints,this is fascinating to me. Great work as usual Ted Z!!!Look forward to more!! Also,great work Jim R.-will refer to the latest list,for I am one who is trying to obtain at least one of each back type for my collection. Thanks guys!!! Sincerely,Clayton |
I think the list is pretty good except the placement of the AB 460. The 10 years I have been buying I have obtained many more AB 460s compared to Broadleaf and I always felt the AB 460 and Cycle 460 were equivalent. For a while I pursued both but couldn't afford to do both. My quest for the Cycle 460s has really hit a major slow down. I rarely see any on ebay and when I have put up a BST for them I only get one or 2 responses.
Has the supply of tougher backs dried up because everyone is hanging on to them? I don't remember if Scot Reader had a list, if he did was it comparable to Jim's? Lee |
great to have your input Lee, I know you have chased these backs for some time. I too have questions about AB 460 and BL 350 and had them reversed in the beginning and still may change it back but as my post says it is very debatable.
This list is way more accurate then the one used by collectors, even myself in the past. |
Clayton
Regarding your......
" Interesting how the Red Cobb Sweet Cap 460 Factory 42 & 42 overprint,Sweet Cap 460 Factory 25,and Sweet Cap 350 Factory 25 prove to be tougher than the Red Cobb Tolstoi and Red Cobb Old Mill. " That's how the numbers came out in the survey. Although, I'm inclined to think that the SWEET CAP 350, Factory 25 is not as tough, as say a TOLSTOI. TED Z |
BROAD LEAF 350 and CYCLE 460 vs AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
Lee
I do not agree with you regarding the AB 460 cards. You and I have been collecting "460" backs for at least the past 10 years. Your CYCLE 460 sub-set is near complete with 100+ cards (out of a possible 109). My AB 460 sub-set is far from complete with approx. 60 cards (out of a possible 103). Furthermore, to date, only 73 cards with AB 460 backs have been confirmed. I constantly search several sources to find any new AB 460 cards....they seldom appear. The significant difference between CYCLE 460 and AB 460 are the Factory #'s. The CYCLE 460 cards are from Factory # 25 (VA), where most of ATC's tobacco brands were produced in 1909 thru 1910. The AB 460 cards were inserted in AB cigarette packs in Factory # 42 (NC). The AB 460 cards were printed in 1911 at the tail-end of the T206 press runs (during the transitionary process of the ATC dives- titure)....therefore, they were Short-Printed relative to BROAD LEAF 350 (Factory # 25) and CYCLE 460 cards. Best regards, TED Z |
Jim R - Nice work!!
Jim,
I think that this is the best (most accurate) listing of back types. I agree with everything that has been written with one significant exception. I do not believe that AB 460 is nearly as tough as you rank it. Back in the 1980s when my dad and I purchased significant lots (or even entire sets) of T206 cards and before people really cared much about backs, we would always find at least one (many times 2 or 3) AB 460 in the collection. While we would also find at least one hindu (usually more).... other cards like CB and certainly Broadleaf were not always part of the collection. My opinion based solely on my personal collecting experience is that AB 460 should appear as rarer than Hindu but not as rare as CB. Regards, Scott |
Ted
I think Lee and Scott are right on AB 460-I think you are looking at it as trying to complete the AB 460 sub set rather than just getting an example of AB 460. It surely is more difficult to get 60 or more different examples of AB 460 or Cycle 460 than it is to get an example to complete your back set. 1. Old Mill brown 2. Lenox brown 3. Broad Leaf 460 4. Uzit 5. Drum 6. Hindu red 7. Lenox black 8. Broad Leaf 350 9. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together 10. Carolina Brights 11. American Beauty 460 12. Hindu brown 13. American Beauty 350 no frame 14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back) 15. Cycle 460 16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42 17. Tolstoi 18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25 19. EPDG 20. American Beauty 350 frame 21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 23. Cycle 350 24. Old Mill south 25. Sovereign 150 26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint 27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll 28. Old Mill 29. Polar Bear 30. Sovereign 350 series forest green 31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30 33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30 34. Piedmont 150 factory 25 35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25 37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 38. Piedmont 350 factory 25 either way AB 460 is tough and it is only moving between 8 and 11 and that is pretty close as each collectors expierence is different. |
FWIW, I was able to snag a very pretty AB460 in a SGC 50 off ebay as a BIN for $125 about a month ago. You will NEVER see a BL350 in that grade sell for anywhere close to $125. BL350 is tougher than AB460.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250583328186 |
I think the list looks pretty good right now.
It doesn't matter much since they probably shouldn't be in there anyways, but I'd switch the blank back and the broadleaf 350s. I've had over a dozen Broadleaf backs since 1999 and one blank back while going after and following both. PS: I have a feeling we'll be having a blank back discussion soon. Rob |
Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks, JimB |
A couple other observations about the list. I do believe the Piedmont Fact 42 is tougher than the Cycle 460. I learned early on how to spot a Pied 42 and I was only able to accumulate 3 in my quest of the T206 set. The other back I think is severely is the SC 460 25. When I finished I had only 3 in my collection, I really believe they may be tougher than Cycle 460.
Jim's observations are correct about finding single examples of Cycle, ABs and others. Sometimes it is easy to find a single example but to find certain examples can be very difficult. I wanted to add my adjustments: 11. Hindu 12. Pied 42 13- 15. Cycle, AB and Sov in any order 16. Sweet cap 460 25 17. AB 350 NO Frame Lee |
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Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit". ;) |
cobb/cobb would be #3...if it were a t206...and I'd place coupon I's at 7 or 8.
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Quote:
In response to your questions here, Jefferson Burdick is the person who invented the classification scheme that is still used today, including the designation "T206". Nowhere does he indicate the number of subjects that need to be on the fronts of advertising backs. Nor does he indicate that a glossy front would eliminate a card from consideration. He lists all the advertising brands included with the T206 designation and the one quality they all have in common is that they all advertised American Tobacco Company products between 1909-1911. A typo on the spelling of Uzit is hardly evidence that the Ty Cobb brand should be disqualified. There was debate a few years ago about wether the Ty Cobb brand was a brand issued by the ATC and if so, when it was issued. That debate was resolved last year with period newspaper articles and other evidence that Ted Z produced about a period collection. FYI, the recent find of two new examples also appeared within a larger period collection of T206s. If you want to change the classification system and establish your own criteria for designation, more power to you. If it is convincing enough, I am sure the collecting world will follow you. You should use a term other than "T206" however because T206 includes brands like Ty Cobb and American Beauty that have physical qualities that differ from the other brands in most cases. And you might want to consider the exclusion of Polar Bear since that was the only brand where the cards were placed with loose tobacco as opposed to cigarettes. JimB |
Let me give another example to explain the reasoning. Let's assume one woman made it into the major leagues. Generally speaking, the classification category of Major League ball players only includes men, but there is a single example of a woman in that category now. Why? Because the criteria is simply that one plays in the major leagues. Having different biological characteristics was never a criteria for determining wether or not somebody was a major league ballplayer. One can make a new category of major league ball players with male organs, but that does not change the old category.
Likewise, if one wants to make a new category for tobacco cards that includes all white bordered ATC cards with baseball fronts produced between 1909-1911 and advertising ATC brands, but excluding those for which 85% of known copies have a glossy front or for which the brand only has one front, that is fine. But it is not "T206". By the way, the glossy front that bothers you so much begs the question of why 20% of them do NOT have a glossy front. Perhaps they started without it and then ATC decided to make the cards for this limited edition specialty brand special and added the gloss. WHo knows? Would that eliminate it? I don't think so. JimB |
Jim B
I will admitt-the Cobb card kills me-mainly because I do not own one...:eek:
the card would only be challenged by brown Lenox or brown Old Mill-all three are close in total number of cards known. I am not sure if it is a 206 but I would love to have it in my 206 collection. I mainly got rid of it because I am not sure and also because Chan included and put it at the top of the list along with his creations to create a market for his creations. If he put them right under Cobb/Cobb so they would be worth Cobb money and he would benifit from it greatly and did. Another reason I didn't include it is because it only has one front-I am just not sure. Lee-you have to look for Pied 42 and Sweet Cap 460-25-I picked at least 20 examples each off of ebay. It seems you picked up 3 each without looking for them. It is each collectors expirience-I just feel I needed to post it and tried to make it as accurate as possible. Seems it is closer than what was being used Now we might need a place here for it to be referanced and used by all 206 collectors and mainly by beginners-so they are not being Channed-I mean scammed. |
In the final defense of my position regarding AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 scarcity.....I agree with Jim R in that if you
are just looking for a "Type Back", certain AB 460 cards might not be as tough as, say a given BROAD LEAF 350. And this is true, if any AB 460 will do. The following AB 460 cards are quite often seen...... Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Duffy Ford McGraw (glove at hip) Tannehill (Chicago) Most of the other 70 - AB 460 cards are seldom seen, here are some of them...... Conroy (bat) Lajoie (bat) Smith (Chicago & Boston) Tinker (bat off shoulder) White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Therefore, if you are trying to collect this sub-set of 73-77 cards, I can guarantee you that it will be a challenge that will continue for many years. Hey guys, am I the only one here (besides Lee B) that collects these various T206 sub-sets ? TED Z |
Hi Jim I agree it does need to be posted some where (Old Cardboard?)
What is the reasoning behind the AB 350 no Frame being so tough. I would buy AB's with and did not worry about the frame or no frame and have at an equal amount of both. Lee |
I always felt AB 350 no frame was tougher because they were only printed on the 350-460 subject cards-66 I think and AB 350 frame is in the 350 series with over 200 possibilities.
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Yup....this discussion is definitely geared towards my addiction of T206 backs - I think that I've checked the thread four times today for updates :)
I agree that the Cobb/Cobb is a tough decision. If it were included I'd probably place it at #1 on the list. Although the total number of known Cobb/Cobb examples (14 or 15) known likely exceeds the known number of OM or Lenox brown cards - I find it not only possible but likely that several undiscovered examples of each exist. In fact, the OM brown in my collection was purchased by my dad many years ago and no special mention of the color was made. I don't think that a Cobb backed card would (or could) ever fly under the radar. I would personally vote for the Cobb/Cobb to be included - I am biased though. This is probably the toughest call of all to make. What a fun topic !! -SGL |
Hi JimB,
I agree with JimR that Cobb/Cobb gets left off of most lists due to the cost associated with acquiring one.... While I do believe that it was distributed differently than the rest of the "T206 set", it was produced by the same company and does belong on the list.... Hi Jim, Ted, Scott, Barry, etc.... I think we will continue to tweak this list as we plow forward toward the "Superset".... Be well Brian PS Can we go back 6-7 years when no one cared about the backs.....? |
Ty Cobb Ty Cobb
I can go either way on the Ty Cobb - Cobb back card. Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread but I thought for some time it was thought to maybe have come in the tins? Was that thought completely dispelled?
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JimB&cobb/cobb
I must say that when JimB puts on his professor hat and argues with
philosophical and logical acumen, it is most refreshing and convincing. The arguments regarding Burdick's classification system coupled with Ted's corroborative newspaper articles and the illustrative analogy regarding the lone woman on the major league team coalesce so cogently that i must add my vote to place Cobb/Cobb on the list at #3. If the blank backs would disappear, i could get some peaceful rest now. great work T206 scholars. Hi Brian, how's the ole tarhill buddy? best, barry |
with only 15 known copies, does it really matter what you call it??
If you have one, do you really care? Just do your dance of joy and wave it around and leave it at that! |
I came across some data I compiled for a couple of years of the backs I use to own. Obviously this was before my quest for the Cycle 460s. I compiled this over about a 2 year period, I probably stopped around 2007.
AB 350 No Frame-4 AB 350 Frame-6 AB 460 - 5 Broadleaf 350 - 2 Carolina Brights-2 Cycle 350-10 Cycle 460-8 EPDG-3 Hindu-6 Hindu (SL)-1 Red Hindu-1 OM-11 OM (SL)-13 Pied 150 25-85 Pied 350 25-225 Pied 460 25-30 Pied 460 42-2 Pied 350 (SL)-14 Polar Bear-24 Tolstoi-11 Sov 150-2 Sov 350-7 Sov 460-13 SC 150 25-13 SC 150 30-30 SC 150 649-6 SC 350 25-11 SC 350 30-69 SC 460 25-4 SC 460 30-6 SC 460 42 PO-6 SC 460 42-5 Uzit-1 Lee |
Pop of Red Hindus.....
One of the cards on this list that I really don't have a good handle on the rarity is the Red Hindu. Would our knowledgeable panel say that it's closer to Lenox in rarity or closer to Drum/Uzit in rarity? Regards, Scott |
T206 Red HINDU cards
Jim's ranking of this back looks good enough to me. Here is my latest data on confirmed Red HINDU cards.
UPDATED 3/26/10 Possible total = 107 Subjects.....unless we find some more, I'm beginning to think that the majority of the remaining 68 subjects are "No-Prints". 39 confirmed Red HINDU's Baker Bender (no trees) M. Brown (Chicago) Chance (yellow portrait)...........super-print Chase (blue)..........................super-print Crandall (portrait-cap) Davis (A's) Devore Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Downey (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Duffy Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Evers (Chicago-bat)................super-print Ford Gandil Geyer Griffith (bat) Hummell Johnson (pitching) Joss (pitching) Kleinow (Boston) Konetchy (glove low) Magee (bat) McGraw (glove hip) O'Leary (hands/knees) Pfeffer Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Sheckard (glove) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) Tannehill (Chicago-throw) Wheat Willis (throwing) CYoung (glove) Did I miss any ? Any new inputs are appreciated. TED Z |
Ted Z, any guesses/theories as to what will determine whether one of the 107 possible Red Hindu subjects is a "no-print"?
Rob :) |
I generally agree with Jim's list, except--like Lee--I don't think Jim has given Piedmont 42 its due.
In my experience, Piedmont 42 is at least as tough as Carolina Brights--considerably tougher than Brown Hindu, Sovereign 460, Cycle 460, etc. A FINAL NOTE: One consideration often overlooked in these "backs" discussions is that certain backs were printed with more subjects than other backs. For example, Brown Hindu was printed with more than 100 different subjects whereas Sovereign 460 was printed with only a few dozen different subjects. Thus, putting aside for the moment the reported difficulty of finding Sovereign 460 with the six superprints, the "scarcity" of Sovereign 460 is at least partly attributable to the fact that it simply wasn't printed with very many subjects. Consider the following hypothetical. Assumption 1: Back X was printed in equal numbers with 50 subjects. Assumption 2: Back Y was printed in equal numbers with 100 subjects. Assumption 3: Back X and Back Y were printed in equal numbers. Conclusion: It will be roughly twice has hard to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back Y as it will be to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back X. |
Seems the list has questions about Cobb back and Piedmont 42.
Cobb I have never owned so I checked into it the best I could with a few collectors who do own an example and have come to the conclusion it belongs at the top of the list with 14 or 15 examples known. We were close to that amout of brown Old Mills known. Piedmont 42 was very easy for me. I won a Cy Young off ebay soon after I became an ebay member. I also BINed a Hindu red of Magee but it took a few years of chasing the tough backs before I landed a Drum or Uzit. I guess it is each collectors expirience. I guess I do agree P42 doesn't get its due at times but I do feel it is easier to get than Carolina Brights and American Beauty and that is because you can still pick them off ebay along with regular Piedmont backs. There was a small group of tobacco cards at this last Philly show and the guy didn't realize he had a P42 in the group. keep in mind this list is just to obtain one example of each back 1. Ty Cobb 2. Old Mill brown 3. Lenox brown 4. Broad Leaf 460 5. Uzit 6. Drum 7. Hindu red 8. Lenox black 9. Broad Leaf 350 10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together 11. Carolina Brights 12. American Beauty 460 13. Hindu brown 14. American Beauty 350 no frame 15. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back) 16. Cycle 460 17. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42 18. Tolstoi 19. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25 20. EPDG 21. American Beauty 350 frame 22. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 23. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 24. Cycle 350 25. Old Mill south 26. Sovereign 150 27. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint 28. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll 29. Old Mill 30. Polar Bear 31. Sovereign 350 series forest green 32. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 33. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30 34. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30 35. Piedmont 150 factory 25 36. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25 38. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 39. Piedmont 350 factory 25 I am sure every one will not agree to this list but it is more accurate than what was being used and is a very good list for collectors to use. If you started now I feel your collecting expirience would be very close to this. |
Jim,
Thanks for the updated list and your thoughtful considerations. JimB |
Rob G......re..Red HINDU no-prints
In my current American Beauty 460 (AB 460) thread, I describe certain "rules of thumb" for determining which T206's are found
with AB 460 backs, BROAD LEAF 460 backs, Red HINDU backs, and UZIT backs. However, these rules only apply to the cards in the 350/460 series. TED Z |
scarcity
Jim R,
a job well done. we are very indebted to you for the efforts. the obsolete and tainted t206 museum ranking which i still owned was shredded yesterday in celebration. best, barry |
Jim,
I think you have hit the nail on the head with Piedmont 42. It is easier to acquire than certain backs that are more plentiful because 1) buyers and sellers sometimes do not distinguish it from Piedmont 460/25 and 2) it is a mere factory variation, not a brand variation. So, in a list of "scarcity" I think it ranks with Carolina Brights, but in a list of "acquisition difficulty" I agree with you that it ranks lower. Scot |
T206 Tough backs
There are more Sovereign 460 backs around than you think. A lot of sellers use the word "rare" too loosely when describing their backs & So. Leaguers. Granted, So. Leaguers are tougher to get, but not rare. Only Cycle 460 & American Beauty 460 backs are tough, not the 350 series. That also goes for the Sovereign 150 & 350 backs as well. Piedmont 42 backs out of Durham N.C., are tough as well, but because there are so many Piedmont backs out there in general, it does get the credit than it should, but someday it will.
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SOVEREIGN 460....2 levels of scarcity
OK everyone....when is the last time you saw any of the following T206's with SOVEREIGN 460 backs ?
Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (throwing-dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (bat-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) Exactly 52 cards were printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs. Many of these are not that scarce; however, the above 6 super-prints are considerably more scarce. For example, the Red Cobb is the most available T206 in this entire set....this card with the SOVEREIGN 460 back has been confirmed with only 4 examples. Hey guys, that's tougher than a Joe Doyle error card (there is 8 of them) ! TED Z |
We now have.....
The most accurate list of T206 backs in scarcity order that I've seen to date. Thanks for an amazing job Jim R.
My only criticism at this point would be the placement of P42. I'd personally move it up a few notches to around the 'hindu' or maybe just a touch tougher category. Either way, this list will be replacing the one that I've privately kept. |
ted
chase blue port sov 460 chase blk cap sov 460 thanks to you :),, the matty and chase blk cap throwing pop up once in awhile the others are seldom seen in my opinion. |
Sweet Caporal Observation/Reviving A Great Thread
I was reviewing this great thread,and noticed something I missed before,which is how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity.I found it very interesting how the scarcity level varies so much based on factories.Here is JimR's scarcity list from #16 through #33,just to use as the example of what I noticed:
16.)Cycle 460 17.)Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 18.)Tolstoi 19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 20.)EPDG 21.)American Beauty 350 Frame 22.)Sovereign 350 Apple Green- 350-460 series cards only (66 cards) 23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 24.)Cycle 350 25.)Old Mill Southern 26.)Sovereign 150 27.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll 29.)Old Mill 30.)Polar Bear 31.)Sovereign 350 Series Forest Green 32.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25 33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 It was interesting for me to see that Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was seated in between Tolstoi and EPDG,,,so I looked through my T206's,and was suprised to see that I only had one,which is Doyle batting!! So,using the list above,it is interesting to see how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity by Factories.Here's the breakdown: 19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll 33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Does anyone know why this is?I guess I didn't realize the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was that tough,but I guess it is!! Also,another obsevation-when Lee so kindly gave us his breakdown of backs after finishing T206 (I love these breakdowns!!),out of all the cards,only three EPDG's!!!Maybe that's going in too many different directions,but really-isn't EPDG scarcer than we may think? Sincerely,Clayton |
Factory #25 tougher T206's
AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN,
SWEET CAPORAL are all Factory #25 (Richmond, VA) T-brands and the T206 cards associated with these brands from 1909 to 1910 state this on their bottom line. The American Tobacco Company was forced to divest by 1911; and, their AMERICAN BEAUTY, PIEDMONT, and SWEET CAP cigarette production was transferred from Factory 25 to the Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, NC at the start of 1911. The BROAD LEAF 350 & 460,, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE 460, DRUM, SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #25) T206's were printed in the Fall/Winter of 1910. They are much tougher than the other backs simply because Factory 25 cigarette production of these brands ended and the cards associated with these brands were either Short-Printed or discarded. For the same reason, you will note that SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #30) backs do not exist for the 55 cards in the 350/460 series. They were printed, but never issued. Instead a scroll was printed over the Fac- tory 30 line and Factory 42 was added, since these cards were shipped to the NC plant to be inserted into Sweet Caporal cigarette packs. TED Z |
Thanks TedZ,for explaining that-now I understand it,and your help is very much appreciated!!!
Sincerely,Clayton |
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