Could be getting scammed ??
 

I sold two cards to someone off the BST board last week. I shipped them out to the appropriate address with delivery confirmation. Insurance was not requested by the buyer. He emailed today telling me he received an empty padded envelope in the mail and threatened me with " other action" if I didn't respond. I' have never had an envelope just show up empty, so this is anew one in my 15-20 years of selling through the USPS. I have the original receipt that shows I didn't mail just an empty envelope. This seems strange to me. Is there that much postal theft in New Jersey or points in between ? How would someone know there were 2 old cards in that envelope in order to conveniently steal them , then re-seal the envelope to make it look like it had never been opened. Any feedback would be appreciated. I was having such good experiences selling and buying on the BST , and now this Ebay-ish thing happens to me

sounds a bit fishy
 

if a threat comes in the very first correspondence.
an empty envelope is a first for me, thankfully.
Have him put the cards back in it, and then the envelope won't be empty anymore! :o

Honestly, though, good luck with the resolution. I hope it works out for both.

That just SUCKS. It's one thing to say that the package didn't arrive; it's another to say the seller shipped an empty envelope.

Hell, just the other day I contacted a seller here on the boards I bought something for because I hadn't received it yet (it was a little over two weeks).

I had the seller send it to my company as I we have had a series of mail thefts in my area over the past year.

Anyway, I contacted the seller and get the Insurance tracking number.

I contacted my mail room and they didn't have a record of it arriving.

I contacted the local post office, and viola, the item was at the post office. They had attempted to deliver the item twice, couldn't get the retards in our mail room to sign it, so held it at the post office.

Not that this is related or comforting, but I had the same issue happen on Ebay. I sold a low grade T206 Chase for like $25 with delivery confirmation but no insurance.

Buyer said envelope came empty and opened a case. Ebay ruled that no one was at fault and issued a refund.

The threat of "other action" in the initial response to the problem raises some red flags in my mind. How about an explanation first and an expression of concern? Leads me to think something is not on the up and up on the buyers part. Sorry you have to deal with this one.:(

I'm saddened to hear that it is a member of "one of us."

Please PM me the member's name, which I will keep in confidence, so I know to steer clear away from said person.

the empty envelope is just another way to get their money back through paypal. Paypal will side with them and you are now out the money and the card. this is the exact reason i will never use paypal again.

It should be , if they decline insurance, they are responsible.....

sucks, what kind of man would "con" or "steal" just to get a card!

just maybe
 

The PO charges by weight, if a small bubble mailer was shipped empty the postage would be .44 cents. If it had the 2 cards it should change the postage to at least .88 (if in top loaders) or more for slabed cards. Plus the cost of conf.

Just a though, hope it helps.

Just went through an issue like this...
 

Sorry to hear that this has happened to you. I also just went through a very similar issue on Ebay, and was pleasantly surprised when I was able to overturn an Ebay decision that had originally sided with the buyer. In my case, I had sent a fairly bulky hockey jersey via the post office and the buyer, a fairly new (not a lot of feedback) Ebayer claimed that the box arrived empty. This may have been the case (perhaps a postal employee took the item etc) but the buyer hadn't attempted to contact me to try and resolve the issue, nor ask if I had any insurance on the shipment etc (which I had). Once I was informed that the case was opened agaisnt me and that the issue was as it was, I contacted the buyer via Ebay messaging and he never responded.

I pointed out the lack of contact to the Ebay folks, along with the proof that the postage amounted to over $15 (more than an empty box would warrant) and they overturned their original decision and sided with me.

I was surprised, as I have had a few unrelated Ebay issues go the other way over the years, each when I was being defrauded. It didn't hurt that I have 100% positive feedback either.

My advice, state you case sooner rather than later, back it up with the info you have, try to contact the buyer through Ebay messaging and good luck.

chris

sorry
 

sorry, should have read that your issue was with a board purchaser. Perhaps the Ebay situation will help another in this position.

So who done it?

Strange Happenings..........
 

Sorry this has happened to you Dave.I'm hoping to see the other person involved respond to this thread.


Regards,Clayton

Nice. Looks like Paypal/Ebay has opened up another can of worms. Used to be the seller was covered with Delivery Confirmation under $200. Signature confirmation over $200.

Now, it seems all the buyer has to do is claim an opened box or package in order to get a free item.

I think the Post Office is more reliable then to have to do that. In the last 11+ years I've completed thousands of transactions, both buying and selling and have yet to ever have someone claim they received an empty package from me.........and I have never received one in return.

Now they are forcing us to pay for insurance on inexpensive packages, or risk being scammed indiscriminately. :confused:

is it ok for me to name names here ? I don't want to violate any policies

Wow! What a crappy situation.

I was in a similar situation until just today. I bought a Wid Conroy from a fellow forum member for $45. He emailed me when he got the money, and said card was in the mail. That was Feb 26th!!! Around Mar 9th, I contacted him to say no card yet. He said he couldnt find the DEL CONF slip and wanted to issue me a refund and apology. I passed on his offer as I didnt even care about the cash, I was too bummed about not getting the Wid. He replied that if the card was returned to him, he'd remail it, or send me my money back. The card finally arrived today....with the postmark showing Feb 26th. By far the longest a package has ever been in the mail in my experiences!

NO the person who is fraudulant should be outed so we all can know to stay away from any dealings with him/her. Name and login ID are great as most people have similar on ebay and so on. Just helps keep us from being ripped off:eek:

With all due respect, there are 2 sides to every story, and we havent heard from the "other" guy. So I dont think "outing" just yet is called for publicly. However, having said that, I did just PM the thread starter to ask for his username so I can avoid him in any future dealings. Private is the way to go at this point IMO.

i agree, keep it private if you need to know....

If it where me
 

his name would have been in the first thread. This is b.s. if you are being honest out the "thief".

I think that would
 

at least get him on here to tell his side. Seems fishy he has yet to respond to this thread.

Scam
 

Anyone who immediately makes threats is suspect at best. I live in NJ and have not had no issues. This is a scam going around via paypal/ebay with their new screw the seller program-no recourse aka feedback, etc. Sorry to hear it, I have been buying a bunch off B/S/T here and would appreciate a PM just in case.

Would like to know
 

A person and I might be doing a trade here on the bst. We both would like to know that the person we might do business with here on the bst is not the offending party. How about some transparency here.
jim

The other party has had time to respond and hasn't.

Until and unless the other party comes forth, or is named, a cloud hangs over all of us.

ok since the other party hasn't responded on the forum today , but has had time to send me 2 threatening and accusatory emails I will name him and hope Leon doesn't ban me. He may be well respected or not I don't know him and have never had dealings with him until now. The buyers name is Bill Brodhead from Clifton New Jersey. the net 54 handle he used was BBSPORTS. His second email accused me of sending an empty envelope to him. He claimed he had been "scammed" like this before and "knew what to do". I keep ofering him a scan of the actual receipt that shows I shipped a small envelope weighing several ounces to his address. He claimes the envelope arrived undamaged and empty. In my 15+ years shipping items worldwide this has never happened to me. I've had items show up that were clearly tampered with , but never pristine with no merchandise inside. This stinks to high heaven if you ask me. He will most likely be filing a grievance with PAYPAL by the gist of his last email. Hilariously he now says "he doesn't even want the cards"

IM sure if Leon has an issue with you outing him, he can just remove your post.

response to the thread
 

Here is a scan of the envelope that this seller shipped to me today w/ delivery confirmation. The cost was $2.53. If he really sent those 2 graded PSA 5 cards to me, don't you think the shipping w/ delivery confirmation would be more than $2.53? Now, who is scamming here?

Guys...
 

Isn't it possible both the seller and buyer are right here. Empty paks, boxes, envelopes do happen on the loss prevention side with all shipping companies. The question I would have has Bill discussed the empty envelope with the Mail carrier or the USPS Mgr ? This sounds like a pilfrage issue. Someone in the supply chain snagged a card, by slitting envelope or it is possible it got damaged in transit, came open and card came out, and the envelope was just forwarded on... That does happen with all shipping companies. Again, I would ask Bill if the envelope has any rewrap tape on it, any unusual slits, or did Bill claim he opened it and everything is in tact, but nothing in it ? If so, then I would wonder if the padded pack has one of those resealable openings. If so, then this may be your answer to what happened. (I always use shipping tape on my padded packs when shipping, b/c most padded packs can be opened and resealed if there is nothing other than the adhesive on the pack). This screams of pilfrage by an USPS employee. No damage, no tape, etc...

i hear psa 5 cards weigh the most...

No
 

Two PSA cards First class mail w/DC should cost between $2.50-$3...

If you have the receipt, send it to me.

I spewed my drink on that one:p

How about he posts the receipt here for all to see.

Shouldn't it cost more
 

Wow that's about the lamest defense I've heard. Anyone who is a frequent buyer/seller hopefully understands the cost of shipping: Here is the pricing for two graded cards shipped 1st class:
Delivery confirmation: $0.19
1st Class postage approx 6 ounces: 2.52.

Its painfully obvious that the bubble mailer DID contain something when shipped. If the buyer claims it was INTACT, but EMPTY, he is either a liar or someone carefully opened then resealed the bubble mailer.

My fellow board members,
allow me to say this about what is going on here. Yes it does seem strange that the envelope arrived empty. However, there some real good theives working for the post office. I say this because for 5 years i worked as an investigator. Now about the 2 members, i've dealt with both of them over the years buying and selling and both gentlemen are damned good people! From an investigative point of view, there is a solution to this issue. I'd like to talk to bill and dave on this matter in private. I'm tired of the finger pointing and the conjecture, that said, if you both would email me i'd give you my number and we can do a conference call so we can close this issue.

Keep in mind that it cost more to get delivery conformation when you take the package to the post office. When you use paypal, it costs $.19.

here is a picture of the receipt from the initial shipment to Bill from me. as you can clearly see.



I am not a thief nor a liar. After the package left my hands at the post office I had no control over it or it's security. Bill chose not to pay for insurance and frankly I don't pay for other peoples insurance out of my own pocket. I trust the members here and hope to gain the same trust and respect from all of you as well. The dealings I've had on BST this year and in 2007 have all been good experiences until now.

as you can see delivery confirmation was .80 according to my Post Office

I agree with chicago, that's the first thing i looked at when the scan was posted. Like i stated looks like an inside job.

Postage cost
 

Hi Bill,
You know I've been selling some cards lately. First class postage with delivery confirmation and no insurance would be about $2.53. I looks like someone tampered with the package in route. It may have been opened and resealed. Sorry this happened to you.

Ron R

Something isn't adding up here!

So you got a package in the mail that was supposed to have 2 graded cards in it and it arrived "empty" (I assume it would have been obvious that two slabbed cards weren't inside) but you then opened it? or is the huge rip on the side the way it arrived? If it is the latter you really owe the original seller an apolgy--threatening someone right off the bat is lame!

$2.50 is not what it would cost to send an empty bubble mailer with DC--so at some point there was something in that bubble mailer!

I would be REALLY pissed if I was the seller and you just posted my address on the internet for all to see!

-Rhett

The buyer should have been able to tell that the envelope was empty before ever opening it, just by the weight (or lack of). As I buyer, if I received an empty envelope I wouldn't open it up. I would take it to the post office and open it in front of a postal inspector. But that's just me.

Agreed
 

Why would you not take it right to the post office? Maybe you thought PSA 5's are magically light and invisible. Sorry, I don't feel postal error here.....

My thoughts exactly, re the open envelope. It was obviously empty. What did you expect to see inside? Not nice to immediately assume the seller was at fault, either.

As has been pointed out, your postage calculation was off, too.

Doesn't add up
 

How could the post office charge $2.53 for an empty mailer? And then to make accusations and threats that the seller sent nothing? Then shun the sellers attempts to show proof and continually send more threats. Too many shady things going on here.

I've done lots of business with bbsports in the past....I trust him implicitly. I think that someone from the Post Office stole the cards and delivered the empty envelope. I doubt either buyer or seller are at fault here!

A couple things...
 

#1. Even though the recepient could've felt an empty mailer and should've returned it to the PO, it is natural to open up a sealed package (even if ripped--maybe the seller reused an old mailer)...Maybe he thought there was a note inside saying "Sorry, here's a refund, card was sold to someone else, or some other personal note..."

#2. I do find it odd that the seller thought postage is higher, but then again maybe it's a newbie?? I don't think they would post here to defend themself if they were just out to scam people...

#3. While it is possible the package was tampered with, there are very strict laws and punishments against postal employees who steal so keep in mind that postal crimes are not all that common...

Canadian point of view
 

I don't know how the U.S. Postal system works, so I'll show how damaged deliveries are dealt with in the Canadian system. I once received a bubble mailer that was ripped wide open, missing one PSA slabbed card, the other shattered. What Canada Post does is still deliver the package to it's destination, but they put the bubble mailer in a clear bag, taped shut, stating it was damaged in transit. They would never deliver a heavily damaged envelope by itself. By showing the seller the Canadian Post forms that came with my damaged delivery, it showed neither party was at fault and we agreed to split the cost. Do they bag damaged deliveries like this in the States?

Post
 

That's how my post office delivers any item that is damaged or partially opened, etc.

Jeff,

I have only received one package damaged in transit and it was bagged and labeled exaclty as you described.

BTW, your cards will be shipped out tomorrow. They are all boxed up and heavily taped :-)

David

a couple thoughts
 

Well, I can offer a few thoughts from a board perspective.

1. It is ok, and preferred, to out someone that has scammed on the board. That being said you better be real sure of what you are saying. You are legally liable for anything you say on this board. (I am not liable for what anyone else says but am liable for what I say :))

2. It is not ok to post addresses or phone numbers or other confidential contact information, except with the approval of the other party OR if it is an extremely obvious scam. Then I/we would love to see as much info posted as possible. That is extreme and rarely happens. I think it happened most recently in the Edwin Arroyo case. He is a well know thief and his info is not protected at all. I can say he is a well known thief as I have emails from him admitting to it. I think he, and his cohorts, days are numbered too :D. I have nixed out the exact addresses on the envelope above and part of the confirmation numbers. They did match.

3. On the subject at hand I can't really tell who is right and who is wrong at the moment. I am sure it will be clear soon. This board is like a snapping turtle when it bites something.

4. It is worth mentioning that there is a "caveat emptor" premise on this board. Besides normal legal channels the only thing I, or any moderator could do (if warranted), is ban someone from the board.

good to know
 

Thanks for bringing this to light. People might want to use insurance and choose who they sell stuff to on the BST. Sorry it happened to both of you. Threats seem like a strong response over 200.00 worth of cards........

So why was this envelope delivered in this condition? It should have been bagged and tagged. Something doesn't seem right. Larry, we need your expertise!

(Thanks Dave, can't wait to get the football cards!)

I completely agree with Rhett on this issue. The buyer is completely wrong in making threatening accusations without getting all the facts. Since this package was handled by a postal worker as indicated on the receipt (clerk 02), there obviously was something inside that package when it left. It is possible to manipulate an automated machine by adding weight to the outside of a package, then print the postage (machine doesn't know better). That is why I hardly ever use an automated machine at the post office unless I know who the buyer is.
Sorry that this played out here, but I don't think the seller did anything wrong.
r/
Frank

When you send cards in the mail.....OCCASSIONALLY bad things happen
 

I can think of two instances where mail containing cards was not delivered to my dad or I. In one instance, the package was insured and noone was financially harmed (although I really wanted the card) -- that one was clearly an inside job.

The other instance is purely a mystery....a low value item just magically vanished. The seller made good on a small value purchase even though he swore that it was sent .... and that was the end of it.

Moral of the story....but buyer and seller could conceivably be telling the truth.

Best wishes for a clean resolution,
Scott

My two cents on Insurance-

Sometimes I just dont understand why anyone selling anything over say $50 just does not include insurance in the cost of an item they are selling, including both here and ebay. By spending that $3 you would have totally avoided this and many other thing that can go wrong when sending anything valuable in the mail. On ebay Insurance protects the seller and while it's the sellers choice on the bst man it sure makes sense.

So in this instance someone is going to be out $200, ouch. I am not knocking the seller looks like he did his part on this transaction but I just don't think it's smart to be selling and not take this into account.

I agree, Scott. I insure everything over $20 regardless whether the seller asks for it. It's just seems simpler that way and it doesn't cost that much ...

a different view
 

I have a different view of insurance. In my auction business I have CIA coverage on everything. It's just what ya' do in the business to have that "warm fuzzy". It's an easy decision.

On my personal trades and sales (as I cross my fingers) I rarely buy insurance. I always get DC or Sig Confirmation but that is it. So far, in 14'ish yrs I have 'eaten' one large item. It sucked and it was totally crazy on my part. I should have sent it overnight as is my policy and it would have been fine. I am a firm believer in DC or Sig Conf on everything though. Insurance is usually at the request of the other party and I am happy to oblige if they want to pay for it.

On our BST, if nothing at all is said, then both parties really have the onus of getting their part of the deal to the other party. So, if you send something and doesn't get to the other party, and no insurance was talked about, then it's on you. Just my opinion.

Overall, insurance is a waste of money.

But seriously, can we get a detail scan of the cards here so when they turn up, and they eventually will be sold to someone, there is proof that they are stolen and whoever is out the cash will get their cards back.

Leon, Do you have separate CIA coverage on your personal collection as well?

If so, doesn't that cover your persoanl trades and sales?

the cards in question
 

the cards were 2 PSA 5's here. One was Red Murray's Portrait, and the other was Deacon Phillippe.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...scan0003-1.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...3/scan0005.jpg

I don't have any better scans , but at least you can read the cert. numbers on the labels. If someone tries to sell these online in the cases they just might get caught by someone on the forum.

I don't have CIA personally
 

Personally, I don't have insurance on my cards. All of my valuable ones are in a very safe place.....

The way the corners round, black dots on border, white dots on the background, and other slight imperfections will easily identify this card outside the slabs.

quick update
 

well I thought I would post before going out for some St. Patricks day celebrating today. Bill (BBSPORTS) did a little detective work on his own and is going to be filing a complaint with his post master about this package. He also apologized to me in a nice way and I gladly accepted his apology. I hope the proper authorities will now investigate for Bill so this doesn't happen again. I consider this issue put to rest though. thanks everyone for your input and help. I hope I get to meet some of you all at the National

2 T206's Murray & Phillippe PSA 5's
 

Dave- I just want you to know that the post office did inspect the package today & it was tampered with. He claims because it wasn't insured, I won't be get my money back, even though the cards were in the package when it was shipped. I will continue to pursue this matter till this is resolved the right way. I will leave you with this note: although I was wrong thinking you had to do anything to do with this package and I'm glad for that, I felt that this should had been handled privately beteeen us & not publicly with net54. When things had settled down, & if you wanted to share the story with the public, thats would have been fine.

Why should he have handled it privately when you were not civil to begin with? You immediately threatened him....IMO that cost you ALL of your credibility from the get go. Had you acted like a gentleman to start with, I doubt any of us would have ever known about this incident.

Opinion
 

It seems to me that the package was probably opened after delivery by USPS. Someone else may have had access to your mail.

Let's be clear! I bought the Revelle which is also pictured with the stolen cards (which I just received today, thanks T206DK btw). The sale was legit and not associated with the "hot" cards in any way!

sorry for not specifying that the Revelle was not part of this transaction. I'm glad it arrived safely though !! the 2 PSA 5's are the cards in question. I have already started to search Ebay everynight for both in case they turn up for sale.

I think pwilk17 has a good point.I would talk to the delivery person,if you have a regular carrier,and ask him/her if they remember the package.You can also see if it was a sub that day.
I'm sure there is theft within the ranks of the USPS,but in this economy it seems insane that a regular carrier (or sub for that matter) would risk losing their job over what "might" be in the package.
At any rate,I'm glad to see you both worked it out with each other,it sounds like you both are the victims here.
You may also want to contact your local card shops to see if someone has tried to sell the cards to them,or give them a heads up to be on the look out for them.
My regular carrier is very good,he has gotten mail to me before that wasn't adressed correctly-so I suggest talking to your regular carrier.
Sincerely,Clayton

the envelope was probably touched by 10 different postal workers, might not be the carrier, could have been emptied long before he got the envelope