1916-1920 Date for "Big Head" Strip Cards
 

OK, here's a project for the board. SCD lists the W-UNC "Big Head" strip cards as being somewhere in the 1916-1920 range, but couldn't narrow it down further. Based on the players included, and the images on the cards (e.g. a few have team emblems) can we get a more accurate year? The SCD is possibly incomplete, so if you have any information to share that might be helpful, it would be appreciated.

Here are some of Leon's for reference:
http://luckeycards.com/pwunc1916bigheadmaster1.jpg

I humbly submit for your consideration, my findings for the issue date of these strip cards. I understand that this topic may be a bit controversial since many RC collectors use the "1916-1920" dating to claim a 1916 rookie of a player, but please read with an open mind, as if you were coming to figure the date of this issue without any preconceived notions.

First a few words of clarification - when SCD lists these as "1916-1920" it is not because they were issued throughout that period, like the "1902-1911" designation on W600s. It is because they couldn't narrow the date based on playing careers of players included in the set. There is no evidence I know of, to suggest these were issued at more then one time.

In dating sets where no date is specified, we always assume the sets were issued at one time, unless player & team designations make that impossible. Otherwise, we would date all issues as a huge range starting from when the first included player started playing to when the last included player stopped playing. e.g. how do we know E96s were issued in 1910 and not over a series of years from 1905-1915 (or whatever the correct years are)? Again, the answer is, we always go with the assumption of a set issued at one time and find the time that all of the player/team combinations fit (1910 for the E96 issue). This is nothing new - just important to clarify before we move on.

With that in mind, we must consider who was included in this 20 card issue. With only 20 cards, the manufacturers certainly would want players who were well known. Therefore, the list of players included in the issue provides a great indication of when these cards were issued. Specifically:

Leon Cadore - he made only 7 appearance in 1915 where he racked up an 0-2 record and a 5.57 ERA. The following season he made only one appearance. As such, it's doubtful these were issued in 1916 or 1917 (the years following those paltry seasons).

Joe Judge - he played in only 12 games in 1915, again pointing to the 1916 issue date being doubtful.

Sam Rice - the future HOFer played in only 4 games in 1915, and only 1/3 of a season in 1916, again, pointing towards 1918 as being the earliest possible issue date.

Ping Bodie - after batting .229 during the 1914 season (and an argument with his manager) Bodie was sent down to the minors, and wasn't recalled until the 1917 season. It seems impossible they would pick him as one of the 20 players to issue, if the set was issued in 1916 or 1917 and the earliest this issue would include him is 1918.

As such, I think we can narrow down the issue to 1918 at the earliest and therefore suggest the issue be dated 1918-1920.

Interestingly, all 4 of those players had wonderful years in 1917. In 264 innings over 37 games, Cadore had a 2.45 ERA. Judge batted .285 (65 points above his 1916 average!) in 393 ABs and Rice batted .302 in 586 ABs. In 557 ABs, Bodie batted .291 and was 3rd in the AL in HRs.

I prefer "Stumpy Bodies"
 

Matt--great research topic. I will check things out and see if I can add anything more to help narrow down the time frame.

Brian

Although I have not specifically researched the players / team affiliations in this set, I do have one experience dealing with them from 'outside the hobby'. Nearly 20 years ago, I was contacted by a lady in San Francisco, who was in the process of settling her father's estate. Among the estate, were thousands of baseball cards and other memorabilia. Her father was raised in the Washington / Baltimore area , and from the surviving artifacts, he collected primarily from 1920-1925. Included in the collection were numerous strip card series including W-514, 516, 519, 520 and what are now referred to as 'Big Heads'. The condition of the cards was all over the map, along with the player / set distribution. Generally speaking the 514, 516 & 519 cards exhibited more handling. THe 520 and Big Heads had the least amount of handling. Based on this observation, and comparing it with the consistency of other similar finds, the lesser condition cards were likely the 'older' ones for this kid, and the nicer conditioned card were acquired later. By 1922, the original collector advanced to saving Senators scorecards and tickets, and there did not appear to be any cards collected by him from this time on. Its always possible that these cards were gifted to him , or otherwise acquired at a later time, but the various series of cards were well blended together. I would think that a 1921 or 1922 issue date would be more likely based on the above factors, and I would have a hard time accepting a pre 1920 date of issue, at least as far as the specific cards that I purchased in this single collection. . With strip cards / anonymous issues it is very possible that multi-year and multiple methods of distribution were utilized by various jobbers or retailers, depending on their individual needs, or regions represented. With strip cards, it will be challenging to completely answer most aspects of their existence. Hope this helps...

Matt, good topic. Unfortunately the players aren't too much of a help.

I think the Bodie situation (having not played in the majors since 1914 and then again in 1917) and Cadore being such a miniscule part of the team in 1915 & 1916 I think it is pretty safe to eliminate the 1916 date from them. This would make them 1917 at the earliest. 1917 is still on the table though as it may have been made midway during that season as some of these guys were enjoying a good year.

It is hard to see the teams on the chests of the players that include them (which could be a clue if a player changed teams at any point during the span).

If I were a betting man the set probably dates to 1918-1922 or so.

-Rhett

Edited to add: There is nothing magic about the 1920 date either (as Mark says) they very well could be from after 1920.

Mark - great information. I believe the original date range of 1916-1920 is based on when all the players depicted were playing, (Doyle being the first to exit after the 1920 season). That being the case, 1921 is probably the more correct end date as players from 1920 would be on cards produced in 1921.

So, we have 1918-1921 now and your anecdotal evidence leads you to believe 1921.

As an aside, I don't have an issue with changing "established" years for these, as it seems the way the years were previously established was by doing a quick run down of start-playing and end-playing dates of everyone combined and narrowing the window accordingly. It seems clear to me that such a quick & dirty method missed Bodie's hiatus (as well as the lack of PT for some of the players in those years) and therefore mistakenly put the possible issue date starting at 1916.

Larry Doyle's last year in the majors was 1920, so I doubt these were made too long after that (although he was a very popular player.) They certainly could be from as late as 1921 but I doubt they are later than 1922.
-Rhett

Edited to add: Matt beat me with the Doyle info.

I have also found a handful of these along with some W520, W522, and a few W516-1's in a vintage collection as well--so the 1920 or so date is probably a bit more accurate.

Big Heads
 

Cadore is probably your best bet in helping to pin it down further, but questions remain. Although your rationale is sound, keep in mind that Joe Judge appears in the m101 sets from 1916 and that both Bodie and Rice appear in the 1917 E135 sets, so someone thought to include them in those earlier years when they were as yet unproven. Granted, one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well. If Konetchy is supposed to be depicted in a Brooklyn uniform, he did not join that team until 1919.

Incidentally, in looking at the scans, it seems to me that the cards of Cadore and Bodie are mixed up for one another. Cadore is shown wearing a "C" when he never played for such a team (except a one-game stint for the Chisox in 1923), instead pitching for Brooklyn, and Bodie is shown wearing a "B" when he in fact was playing for Cincinnati and never played for a team beginning with "B". Also, the pose of Cadore is as a hitter when he was a pitcher and Bodie was considered a bit of a slugger, and, while cartoonish, the face on the Cadore card bears some resemblance to Bodie, IMO.

Todd - that's precisely the point - the M101 or E135 set had hundreds of players - they couldn't all be starters, let alone stars. Smaller sets that include lesser players are usually team issues. Especially with all of those players having large 1917 seasons (and thereafter) it's overwhelmingly doubtful they were included following only their 1915 or 1916 contributions.

Hello all-
Just wanted to say this is a great thread.As Todd pointed out,it seems that maybe they switched up the Bodie & Cadore letters on the uniform.

It got me to wondering if maybe they put the first letter of their last names on the uniforms of these two cards for some reason,rather than a letter for the team.

I'm sure I'm wrong,but could it be?

Thanks,Clayton

I don't disagree with you Matt, except maybe your use of the word "overwhelmingly". I always wondered why these dates lean earlier than perhaps they should anyway--why not figure out the latest date and assume that was the year of issue, or maybe even the following season? Seems from the anecdotal evidence presented that very well may be the case.

A few thoughts
 

In accordance to the information provided by Matt, Mark, Rhett and others, and checking the player's careers, I think this set can be narrowed down to the 1918-1921 time frame. It is a small set, and all of the players depicted had a career of some note, which is pretty consistent with other small sets throughout the vintage era. Just think of some of the other comparable small group strip sets of this period; there are no obscure players included (please point out any exceptions to this). That is why I lean closer to the 1920 issue date--by this time all the careers of the included players had been well established.

The team designations on the uniforms, when seen, do not necessarily represent a specific team, as noted previously for Cadore and Bodie. The closest I see is the Baker card with a 'NYA' designation, which I surmise could indicate the New York Americans. The Konetchey card has a 'Y', which I could not figure out what in the fadoodle this would mean.

Also, it is interesting to note that Mark indicated an original find originating in the Washington DC area, as either 3 or 4 of the players in the set during this time frame were with the Senators (see below why this could be either 3 or 4). In the 1918-1920 time frame (sorry, didn't check 1921), the set is also heavy with New York Yankees (2-4 players, depending upon the year). It also appears there was no attempt to include a player from every team, as there are no players from Pittsburg or the Chicago Cubs.

Finally, there are two cards whose identities I believe can be questioned, due to both lack of team designations and the crude, non-realistic player drawings (the E91A and part of E91B, however maligned, have much more realistic facial portrayals of the players depicted).

First is the card of Burns. Unfortunately there were two George Burns, both with prominent careers, that played during the era, so I don't think we can narrow this down to either.

The other card is the one with the designation of 'Johnston'. The guidebooks have always listed this card as a mispelling of Walter Johnson, but there were two prominent players during this time frame with the last name of Johnston, so I think it possible that some assumptions were perhaps carelessly made. The card shows a player throwing righthanded, so we can probably eliminate Doc Johnston, but Jimmy Johnston of Brooklyn also had a notable career (along the lines of Cadore, Konetchey, Bagby and others depicted in the set) and was a righthander. Can anyone tell me for sure that this card is actually Walter Johnson? It certainly bears no resemblance to him. And other star players of the time, such as Speaker and Alexander, are not included in this set, so I don't think we can positively identify this card, especially with an inaccurate spelling, as that of Walter Johnson. Hope this doesn't throw someone's WaJo collection into a quandry.

Brian

Brian - wonderful comments and great point on WoJo. I'm going to shoot an email to his grandson (a board member) to see if there was a "Big Head" in grandpa's collection. Not that such a thing would answer the question conclusively, but if in 1921 WoJo thought he was the one depicted, I'd give that some weight.

Edited to add that the one known as WoJo does have a 'W' on his jersey which would not make sense for the Johnston possibility, though, as we've seen above, it's not altogether clear what those letters are for.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the WaJo card, his earliest card produced by Novelty Cutlery during the 1907-09 time frame incorrectly listed his last name as Johnston also. Maybe a common surname of the era........

and this one (Leon's):
http://luckeycards.com/pwunc1910wuncjohnson.jpg

well
 

hmm, who is Joe Murphy? He is listed as one of the players in the 20 card W519 set from 1920, and I cannot place the name.

Goldie Rapp is listed in two separate small (20 cards) strip sets in 1920--the W520 and the W522. Goldie Rapp did not play a big league game until 1921, when he split 2/3 of an unremarkable season between the Giants and Phils. Why did he merit inclusion in these sets?

The circa 1910 strip set from which Matt pulled a WJ card also includes in its 20 player size Willis Cole, who had played all of 46 games by then, and Oscar Stanage, who had played 78 games as a part-time catcher for Detroit.

Again, I don't disagree with the premise, but exceptions have been shown to exist.

I disagree. Juxtapose Bodie and Cadore as I suggested and they appear with their correct teams, and the remainder of the players showing an insignia appear to match up with their correct teams. I do not see a "Y" on Konetchy's uniform, perhaps you can enlarge that for us.

Todd - not to take the thread too far offtrack, but maybe that set is 1911 or 1912 and the Cole depicted is King Cole, not Willis Cole - I don't have a scan handy. King Cole went 20-4 with a league leading 1.80 ERA in 1910.
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=1451

Follow up and through
 

Good points Todd--I was basing my statement about obscure players based upon memory of the players included in the smaller strip sets, which of course was for the most part faulty. And it does appear that Walter Johnson was identified as 'Johnston' on that other W-UNC card. The Big Head card appears to depict the player in a right handed 'follow-through' throwing motion, so with the 'W' identified (I could not see it in the scan) and the other card identified as 'Johnston', all thes factors do lead one to believe that the card was intended to depict WaJo himself. Although, as stated before, Big Heads are just about as artistically crude as they come.

I have the Konetchey card and it has a 'Y' designation.


Brian

Carl Mays went from Boston to NY in 1919 so if anyone has a picture of that card the uniform might help.

Could the Y in Konetchy be for NY?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MESOX:IT

I find the fact that of all the white sox only the clean Schalk is in this set which would make me believe is it 1920-21.

It certainly is an off grouping of players that's for sure.

James G

Impossible to determine year of issue?
 

I spent a couple of hours researching some of the players in the set.

I believe that it is impossible to accurately determine the year of issue by looking at the cards. The biggest reason is the drawings of the players are not accurate enough.

However, based on the players socks I would guess that these cards were issued in 1919 (see below). I don't believe they were issued prior to 1917 based on the information below regarding Milan and Judge.

I believe that the starting date range of 1916 is based on one card: Home Run Baker. He joined the Yankees in 1916 (from Phil) and his uniform clearly has N. Y. A. on his chest. If you looked at his socks it matches the 1919 home uniforms (the previous years the Yankees had solid socks).

You would think the Ed Konetchy would help nail down the exact year of issue. However, the only possible clue is his socks. They don't exactly match any of the 3 possible teams. If I were to guess I would say they were from the 1918-21 Brooklyn uniform (their uniform did not change from 1918-21).

Even though Babe Ruth didn't change teams I believe the 1919 or 1921 uniforms (socks) are the closet match to his card. They are 2 colors, although not the same colors. The other years the Yankees socks are solid.

Joe Judge and Zeb Milan were with Washington during the entire period in question. Both of their socks on their cards appear to be 3 "stripes".(although not in the same order) Washington started with 3 stripes in 1917 and stayed with them through 1920.

I'll keep looking!

Dan

More Big Heads Less Brucii !
 

Great thread guys..I mean a GREAT thread!, While I don't have anything to offer but to say that my only card from this set is Eddy Konetchy, and some agreement that the range of 1916-1920 could probably be slid forward a year, maybe two...just keep it coming.

Less Noize, more Socks

Zeb
 

Who is Zeb Milan?

Clyde's nickname was "Deerfoot."

Clyde's brother's (Horace Robert Milan) nickname was unspecified. He only played 1915 and 1917 for the Senators with the following players from the set: Johnston (if Walter Johnson), Clyde, Joe Judge, Sam Rice......

apparently
 

Clyde was also known as Zeb:

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?...=9624&bid=1783

http://books.google.com/books?id=0ca...0milan&f=false

Zeb
 

OK thanks. Deerfoot certainly doesn't roll off the tongue.........

big head
 

Matt et al,
i absolutely love this thread.
great detective work that i must incubate for a bit.

thanks,

best,
barry

hmm
 

The more I look at them,the more I believe that the card supposedly depicting Eddy Konetchy is actually Home Run Baker. First, although hardly conclusive, the image bears some resemblance to Baker, and none to Konetchy. Second, that might explain why there is a Y on the uniform, as Baker played for the Yanks, and Konetchy never played for New York. Third, the player is batting left-handed, as did Baker, while Konetchy was a righty. Fourth,the card of Baker looks absolutely nothing like him,although I can't think of anyone he resembles right now. Fifth, I still believe that Cadore and Bodie are juxtaposed--if true, there is precedent for misidentifying the player intended to be depicted.

If I am right, then who is supposed to be on the card claiming to be Baker?

The fact that so many of these guys started in 1915, even Ruth because his 1914 season was brief, is quite a coincidence, if it is a coincidence. There was also some changing of teams going on with some of the guys, including Baker to NYA. Baker's jersey is the only Jersey that includes the "A" designation, with the others only noting the city abbreviation. Johnson and Cobb, well established in pro baseball, were correctly labeled with their respective teams.

Having had major back surgery on the 20th (from 20 years of baseball) and no work for at least another month, I have three word documents going so far and will post the other two shortly, but let me know what you think about this in the meantime. BTW, the letters on the left portion of the chest are team names by city. Walter Johnson has the "W" and Cobb has the "D." Therefore, the letters on Bodie and Cadore were likely confused as someone said, unless they were all printed at different times maybe (?). I know far, far less than you guys do, but I think these were from pre-1920, but more on that soon.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...916-20Cobb.jpg

Here are the teams:

Boston Red Sox
• Babe Ruth 1914-1919 (RC) limited play in 1914
• Carl Mays 1915-1919 (RC)
• Schang 1918-1920

Washington Senators
• Walter Johnson 1907-1927 (“W” on chest)
• Joe Judge 1915-1932 (RC)
• Clyde Milan 1907-1922
• Sam Rice 1915-1933 (RC)(Pitcher 1915-1916)

Detroit Tigers
• Ty Cobb (Has a “D” on his chest)

New York Yankees
• Frank Baker 1916-1922 (NYA on chest) why not just NY, because of recent change?
• Babe Ruth 1920-1934
• Ping Bodie 1918-1921 (“B” on chest)
• Schang 1921-1925

Cleveland Indians
• Jim Bagby 1916-1922 (only 17 IP with Reds in 1912)

New York Giants
• David Bancroft 1920-1923
• Larry Doyle 1915-1916 and 1918-1920

Brooklyn Robbins
• Leon Cadore 1915-1922 (RC) (“C” on chest)

Boston Braves
• Konetchy 1916-1918 (new team starting 1916)

Philadelphia Phillies
• David Bancroft 1915-1920 (RC)

Philadelphia A’s
• Ping Bodie 1917
• Schang 1913-1917

Chicago Cubs
• Larry Doyle 1916-1917 (Some kind of change in 1916)

Chicago White Sox
• Ray Schalk 1912-1928

Cincinnati Reds
• Heine Groh 1914-1921

St Louis Cardinals
• R. Hornsby 1915-1926 (RC)

Interesting that they both changed teams between '15 and '16.........

You're going to need to be more clear about what you're implying here. Is it your theory that because they were unknown rookies playing in less then 10 games in 1915 & 1916, someone decided to use them specifically on the cards?

No Matt, I'm stating it is a coincidence that 35% of the players that are known started in 1915, if it is a coincidence, and some others were changing teams around that time. I was referring to Ruth when I referred to 1914, and Bagby played very little in '12 before returning in '16.

Konetchy does resemble Baker tough
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-1910-T3-Tur...item3a5bfd8cd0

All positions are covered (Is there a mistake?) G. Burns???? Almost enough for two teams with only twenty cards
P
Bagby,
Johnson,
Cadore
Mays
Ruth

Of
George Joseph Burns (One of McGraw’s most valuable)
Milan (CF)
Ping Bodie
Ty Cobb (CF)
Sam Rice (CF)
Babe Ruth

3rd
HR Baker

SS
Dave Bancroft
Hornsby

2nd
Doyle
Heine Groh

1st
Konetchy
Joe Judge
George Sisler

C
Schalk

Sorry, left Schang off, two teams, almost
 

Positions

P
Bagby,
Johnson,
Cadore
Mays
Ruth

Of
Milan (CF)
Ping Bodie
Ty Cobb (CF)
Sam Rice (CF)

3rd
HR Baker

SS
Dave Bancroft
Hornsby

2nd
Doyle
Heine Groh

1st
Konetchy
Joe Judge
George Sisler

C
Schalk
Schang

Actually Greg, your link to the Baker card is itself a mistake-- the T3 shows Jack Barry, even though it claims to be Baker. See--there's more precedent that they can't Baker right :)

The Big-Head Konetchy looks like Baker's T227 card to me, both facially and body build.
http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t227/t227gal.asp

It looks nothing like Konetchy, who had 25 pounds on Baker also:
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...16Konetchy.jpg

Wow, now that you mention it, the guy on the T3 did look a little less athletic (no pun intended) than Baker, should've looked at my own T200!
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...aPhilAmer1.jpg

Here's two questions:
Are there other 20’s strip card sets that are as scarce as the Big Heads?
Are the 10’s strip card sets as scarce as the Big Heads?

Greg:

The W590's are one of the toughest strip card sets of the 1920's and also one of the most popular.

Schang
 

Wally Schang was a switch-hitting, right hand throwing catcher/outfielder

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/schang.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ly_Schang2.jpg

Their heads are magnified as if to be seen better
The more we look at 'em, the more one face appears to belong on a different body......

Is it possible this was some sort of game in which the object was to identify the correct player.....? Anything similar to that back then?

1915- W unc series, 1921 W-Unc, 1920's W-Unc Game card
 

I would venture to guess the 1921 self developing cards (Johnston (sic) shown) are more scarce, depending on if if we call them strips, I do. And of course my new faves, the 1915 W-Uncs. Although many don't feel they are W cards they are still classified that way today. Strip cards are neat to collect and still an area where we learn new things quite often.

Thanks Leon. Very cool cards. It seems the artist on the Gehrig card attempted to accurately depict him in a comedic, yet adoring fashion.

I find it hard to believe that a set of baseball cards was produced with no purpose, and I find it hard to believe that the "artist" failed to attempt an accurate depiction of the players. I also find it hard to believe that this set originated in a child's playroom. The origination is anonymous, yet aren't we to assume a company of sorts issued the cards? And if so, would the unknown company hire a ten year old to complete the sketch composites?

Edited to say: One intense face out of the whole bunch was not random; it was intentional....

Here's what I would look for in an attempt to complete a sketch composite that I would like to portray......., things that are striking about a person: chin cleft, ears that stick out, disproportionate features, crooked nose, etc, etc, etc

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/cadore.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Joe_Judge.jpg

Greg,

So you're saying the Leon Cadore really shows Joe Judge? Crap. Now which one do I go after for my Washington collection?

Can somebody put up a pic of the Judge card? Who's shown on that one?

Bill

This is starting to look like they hired an artist and gave him a list of names and he returned a pile of drawing with no names on them and the person whose job it was to assign the names for printing didn't know anything about baseball (Walter JohnsTon?) and mixed many of them up.

Inconsistencies
 

Definite Inconsistencies, assuming the players on the cards are the same as the person noted by name:

• Sisler is throwing with his right hand
• Doyle has his glove on his right hand
• Schang has his mitt on his right hand
• Konetchy is batting LH
• *At first, I thought Ruth was in follow-through, but it is apparent IMO that he is awaiting pitch as a right hand hitter. In all batting poses the hands are on the bat with conventional grips. Therefore, Ruth's other hand should be in view. In fact, his stance and hand position on the bat matches that of Bancroft.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/Ruth.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/Bancroft.jpg


Interesting stuff:

• The only player posing as a base runner is Cobb
• The only player not posing as hitting, throwing, or base running is Baker. He is neutral, just standing there.
• Carl Mays is pitching, in fact, he's in the middle of a wind up and looking toward second as if he is checking a runner.
• Milan looks like he is up to something, as if he is concealing a spitball or something
• It seems all the pitchers in the set were at the very least decent hitters. Johnson and Mays could hit well, bagby hit well in the '20 world series, and cadore had decent hitting stats in '20, was also in the world series.

Cadore is the only pitcher posing with a bat, and IMO he is not depicted on the card; Joe Judge is. And if Judge is on cadore's card, he is holding the bat as a RH hitter when he should be holding the bat as a lefty.

Yeah, I agree, unless it was intentional, but I can't think of why. Remember the W516-?-? in which the images were reversed? When was that allegedly, '20 or '21? Gotta find my catalog...............

W516-2-1 1920 and W516-2-2 1921

Hmmm...same potential years (especially based on the earlier testimony about what these were found with), same type of issue, same mistake - do the odds point to two different inept workers or the same one? :)

Bill, here are the cards magnified. It'll take a couple posts to get 'em all in...
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/bAKER-2.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bodie.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/burns.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/cadore.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...6-20Cobb-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/Doyle-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/groh.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/hornsby.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/johnson.jpg

Does anybody know off the top of your head if the strip card sets comprised complete teams in the sets (the sets that had 10,20,30 cards) or were they random with the possibility of multiple people at one position, etc?

The position post from before did not have Burns (the second post), and some of the players could perform at multiple positions, especially the infielders. The cards in this set could be arranged to form two teams, or it could be one team with a back-up at each position.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/schang.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/schalk.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/rice.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/milan.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/mays.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/Konetchy.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/judge.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/Ruth.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../IMG_00092.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Bancroft-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bagby.jpg

Yeah, unless this started that chaos. To go that route, we still have some problems. We gotta determine if the other players are accurately depicted on their respective cards, because if not, we have some that are reversed and some that are not.......

Ping looks right except for that dang "B!"

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bodie.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Ping_Bodie.jpg

Not Sisler?!!!
 

The person depicted on the card labeled as Joe Judge has a cleft, and the actual player with the most pronounced cleft was George Sisler, which means I just bought a "highest graded" SGC 50 card of "Sisler" when it wasn't even Sisler!

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rge_Sisler.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/judge-1.jpg

Bagby Appears to be Correct(?)
 

How about right hand pitching Bagby? IMO, he looks close enough to correct.....

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bagby.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Jim_Bagby.jpg

Rice is a combination of two
 

When looking at Rice's card, the left half of his body (looking at it) is that of Sisler. He is a combination of two people with a missing hip.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/rice.jpg

Year: 1919
 

Year: 1919

Target: New York Yankee and New York Giant fans

Origin: New York

Edited to say: We need a better image of Ruth, but I'm confident it won't affect the previously stated year, but maybe slightly, with an easy adjustment. New York will not change, and stating that was the origin may have been off, but if they didn't originate in New York, they were manufactured elsewhere and shipped to New York, which was where the target audience was located. Distribution = New York

New York
 

Edited to say, if it wasn't for Bodie, the year could be earlier.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bAKER.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/bodie.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/burns.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/Doyle-1.jpg

Confirmed Correct Player Depicted on Card (IMO)
 

Confirmed Correct Player Depicted on Card (IMO)

1. Bodie: glove on correct hand

2. Cobb is correct, but leaning the wrong way as a base runner, which could be returning to a base, career high in steals was 1915 (96!), led league in steals 1915-1917

3. Johnson is correct, pitching (blondish hair and follow through, depicted as grizzled veteran) http://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphi...son_walter.jpg

4. Groh is correct, hitting

5. Bancroft is correct

6. Hornsby

7. Schalk - Mitt and all

8. Mays – No red and white pin stripes helps in dating the issue, checking the runner (Cobb?)

9. Milan is correct, but unknown what he’s doing

10. Schang is correct but throwing left hand, accurately depicted as catcher. The fact that Schang was a left hand hitter likely explains the mitt on the incorrect hand (along with ignorant artist in knowing handedness in baseball, just knew something was left hand)

11. Rice is correct, and side note: was a pitcher 1915-1916, as was Sisler, with whom Rice's card was blended (to shorten the drawing process?).

12. Bagby - RH pitcher.

Cards with the + Symbol on the Borders
 

Cards with the + Symbol on the Borders:

Cards with the “+” symbol

1. Sisler
2. Baker
3. Bancroft
4. Schalk
5. Judge
6. Burns
7. Milan
8. Schang
9. Bodie

Card Without the “+” Symbol:

1. Cadore
2. Hornsby
3. Rice
4. Mays
5. Konetchy
6. Groh
7. Bagby
8. Johnson
9. Cobb
10. Ruth
11. Doyle

Links:

Johnson Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1034&lot_qual=

Cobb Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1035&lot_qual=

Ruth Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1036&lot_qual=

Hornsby Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1030&lot_qual=

Rice/Bancroft Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1032&lot_qual=

Sisler, Baker, Schalk, Hornsby
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1031&lot_qual=

Others
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1033&lot_qual=

Johnson, Ruth, and Cobb have very faint pin stripes, nothing like the New Yorkers.

Players located on mis-labeled cards thus far:

1. Konetchy on Baker's Card
2. Baker on Konetchy's Card ("Y" indicates an attempt at correction?)
3. Judge on Cadore's card
   And how could I forget, Sisler is on Judge's card!

The players not noted in this list and the previous "correct" list have not been identified yet, IMO

Anybody Want a Highest Graded Sisler.........???
 

RH pitcher, Leon Cadore:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../IMG_00092.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...n_Cadore-1.jpg

Feel free to disagree at anytime........if anybody is reading this............

Veteran, Laughing Larry Doyle............
 

Veteran second baseman, Laughing Larry Doyle, depicted in an adoring fashion, has his head tilted back laughing, with eyes closed, as he prepares to throw with his correct arm:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...arry_Doyle.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ards/burns.jpg

To conclude:
 

The Sisler card does have a cleft after all, and Cadore was very plain looking without anything resembling a cleft, who is on Sisler's card, I don't know:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../IMG_00092.jpg

Babe Ruth literally looks like a baby in the face and is batting right handed.

Larry Doyle throws left handed on the card and looks like nobody.

This set was messed up royally!!!!

1919-20, but no later and no sooner

Greg
 

Greg- I have always been intrigued with the Big Head strip set. I doubt I would have gone into the detail you did, so it's appreciated. I have exactly enough energy to read about what you examined in depth.:o Thanks again ....btw, I only need Cobb and Ruth to complete my set (shameless plug)

Thanks Leon
 

Thanks Leon,

I'm literally sitting in a chair 24/7 recuperating from surgery,so it was great to have something like that to do, please let me know if something similar can be done.:)

...........I should not have referred to the strip card sets as chaos. They are not at all chaos in that they embrace the adoring qualities of the players as seen by the fans............I love 'em but got frustrated with not figuring Doyle out..............

Seriously, I was trying to figure Ruth out, even saved him for last but ended up looking at him before Doyle, when I noticed my seven month old girl sitting in the floor next to me smiling, and I realized immediately what the artist intended for Babe, and it was very cool:

My daughter, Ruth Elizabeth, along with Babe(Y) Ruth:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...%202010/62.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/ruthhead.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/bagby-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...im_Bagby-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/schalk-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...y_Schalk-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/mays-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...arl_Mays-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/bAKER-3.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ge_Burns-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/milan-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...de_Milan-1.jpg

Who is that you have matched up with Baker?

"SL" on right chest denotes St Louis
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...nsby-1-1-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m..._Hornsby-1.jpg

Follow through was nailed by the artist, no need for a comparison
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../johnson-2.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/bodie-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ng_Bodie-1.jpg

Todd, you're very observant
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Konetchy-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Baker-1-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/groh-2.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...nie_Groh-1.jpg

George Burns!!! Does he look right to you??

Not sure, the body build is closer to Konetchy, but of course there are some exagerrated builds in this set.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ncroft-1-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Bancroft-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...cobbhead-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cobb-Red-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/cadore-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...oe_Judge-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rds/rice-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Sam_Rice-1.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/schang-3.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m..._Schang2-1.jpg

What got me to thinking was I went back to read your post and noticed you weren't sure about that one, the guy on Baker's card that is, but............I can't find anybody for Burns and the face is real close to perfect......

These guys are left
 

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../judge-1-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...e_Sisler-1.jpg

These guys are left:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Konetchy-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cadore-1-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ry_Doyle-1.jpg

These cards are left:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Doyle-1-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ds/burns-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Sisler-2-1.jpg

Sisler's card does have a chin cleft, which would be something notable to a sketch artist, and his card was used in the production of Rice's card, so right handed throwing could be explained from that. But Joe Judge's card has a pronounced cleft, lefty at bat.

I also think laughing Larry goes with "Burns" because a nickname is something a sketch artist would chase for the adoring quality....

Greg: I know zero about the Big Head issue and have nothing to contribute to this thread other than to say your efforts are extraordinary and much appreciated, I hope your recovery from back surgery goes well and has an excellent outcome, all babies are cute but yours is beyond beautiful, and here's wishing you a Happy Father's Day.

David McD.

Thank You
 

David, thank you very much

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...Cards/62-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ruthhead-1.jpg

Greg,

I bought a very large group of stirp cards from a NY auction, I mean close to 100+ all in one lot. I think there were 3 big heads might have been 4. If this was a NY issure I would of expected a lot more. Also I think we would see the Ruth card more if it was a local NY think and that card does not show up at all.

I have always thought of the set as being "made up" meaning that nothing really was made to match and that it was more of a generic looking set.

I think by doing less work on the set it would have cost less to make and if someone just wanted to do thi fast and on the cheap this is the type of product that would have come out.

Back the Ruth, those apear to be Red sleeves and socks, so that would put him with the Sox and not Yankees right? Can't we use this to narrow that date. Since he is in a hitting pose and not pitching it would likely have been late in his Sox days when he was moving from pitching to hitting.

I think the best chance to id the date is the uniforms, but if things were done so roughly I am not sure they would be acurate anyway. This might just be one of those things we never id or confirm a date on like the 1915 W-Unc.

James G

Thanks James, Great Points
 

The artist did depict the players in uniforms, but the uniforms were not intended to accurately match the real life uniforms. The intent of the make-believe uniforms was to have Yankees and Giants stand out from the rest, which was done with large, bold red/white pin stripes. Everyone else was dressed in plain uniforms.

The fact that Ruth and Mays are not wearing those bold red/white pin stripes indicates Ruth had not yet made the switch, but as you said, had established himself as a hitter.

The fact that Bodie is wearing the pin stripes dates this issue post-1918, so either 1919-1920. Your points make me lean toward 1920 firmly.

The quantity of the Big Heads in your New York find sounds correct to me, and actually makes me further believe New York. In general, in my experience, there are not three Big Heads for every 100 frequently seen strip cards, such as w516. The scarcity of the set leads me to believe local (regional) only distribution, and if that is the case, New York IMO is a no doubter because of those bold stripes. However, scarcity is not why I said New York; I said New York because of those uniforms (that weren't really uniforms). The New Yorkers wearing those bold stripes were not superstars like Johnson, Cobb, Sisler (by then), Hornsby, etc, but they were significantly included for a reason, and that reason was because they were local stars (like Paul whats-his-name that played for the Yankees late 90's early2000s). While Paul was an awesome player (anyone who remains in the show as long as he......), he was not a superstar in the country, only in New York. Paul was "adored" in New York.

The "+" symbols on the borders of only nine cards out of twenty cards in the set seems significant. I don't think this set was complete, and your point, that more would have survived if from New York makes sense. I don't think many were made and many that did survived........

Do you have any idea about the "+" symbol? Rice's card was developed out of, or led to the development of, the Sisler card, and because Sisler's card has a "+", and Rice's card didn't, it may indicate that one or the other was added after the fact in order to make the set larger with well known players included from other teams.

Your point from a couple months ago, specifically that Schalk is the only Black Sox player, also makes 1920 more firm in my mind.

I am firm on this also: The heads were magnified so the faces, including the details of the faces, could be seen and identified. But like Matt said (and my wife), it appears the drawings were completed first, then the names later, which led to mis-identification.

I've been thinking that other than the wrong names on the pictures, the art was well done, with the intended cartoonish effect.

Those "+" symbols; if we could figure those out............But the date seems crystal...

Thanks James

Greg
 

I'm having trouble with your reasoning for 1920 as the release date, and hardly consider that finding to be "crystal". First, if the New York players were given bright, bold contrived uniforms to stand out from the rest, than Mays and especially Ruth should be donning them as well. As you know, Ruth was sold to the Yankees right after Christmas in 1919. The acquisition was considered quite a coup for the Yanks, and I would have to believe that if the idea was to highlight the New Yorkers, he would have been front and center. You recognized in your last post that Mays and Ruth were not shown in the red and blue--how do you reconcile that with 1920 as a release date?

The other point that you made for 1920 is the inclusion of Ray Schalk as the only White Sox player, somehow suggesting that the Black Sox were deliberately omitted. The scandal, while suspected during or shortly after the 1919 World Series, did not break until September, 1920, with indictments issued the following month. The identity of the culprits was far from fixed in 1920, at least until almost year end, so leaving them out of the set cannot be due to criminal activity. Moreover, why not include sqeaky clean Eddie Collins, a HOF caliber player by 1920? It may just be that only one White Sox player was to be included and Schalk was chosen.

Todd, glad you're back!!

“Crystal.” I’ve never used that word in my speech.

Good points, which included some information I didn't know. The 1920 date is based on the uniforms, but using a one year delay......which as you said, should have nothing to do with the black sox (I now know). Should we return to 1919-1920, with the primary reason being the selection of players along with their respective uniforms, or should we settle on '19? I really want to know what you think about all this.

Ruth and Mays should be wearing those stripes (especially Ruth!), but they're not....They're Red Sox.....

So what about Mr. Konetchy? Does he belong with Baker or not, what do you see on that?

well excuse my confusion
 

but you said I wouldn't discount completely that the large-bodied image on the "Baker" card is Konetchy. Just not sure.

I'm also wondering why there are four Senators in a 20 card set, yet you conclude that New York was the target audience.

I know what I typed, please let's forget the "c" word. I should have said that I am absolutely certain or something, never spoken the "c" word unless referring to my mother's "C" animal collection.

Is it clear to you that the Giants and Yankees are wearing bold pin stripes? And if so, are you confident that the year is narrowed to the year mentioned? You did not say. To me, Bodie is a big clue because he never put up superstar numbers, yet he strikes me as a local fan's player type. Doyle had few good seasons, a steady player, but to be included in a star set? Burns was a local favorite, one of McGraw's most valuable. And of course, HR Baker adorned with NYA.

Four Senators, yeah, that stands out. Let's compare them to the confident looking New Yorkers:

• Johnson, one of the greatest ever, has a mustache and is quite plump.
• Sam Rice's card was half done. Interestingly, Rice had his first good season at bat in 1919, so since his card was half done, as an afterthought maybe, perhaps he was included later and taken from Sisler's card? Or perhaps the intent for him was correct, as a pitcher, like Sisler was a pitcher.
• Milan looks mischievous.
• Judge is on the wrong card IMO.

Maybe they were a give-away at one or more of the 22 Senator v Yankee match-ups, with some super-stars from the other teams mixed in?

As for the other teams,

• Schang looks like a clown, like he should have one of those little propellers on top of his hat.
• Some players can't be found.
• Babe Ruth, while cute today, was made to look like a baby (or am I the only one who notices?).
• Cobb is traveling the wrong way.

I personally have seen two types of cuts on these cards: all the way to the image, and several well cut ones. Any body ever seen or heard of a sheet of them or of any with jagged edges we so often see on strip cards? I would like to know if the fans cut them or if they were cut prior to distribution, if didtributed. I'm also thinking the set was possibly never complete. Perhaps this was to be W514 but the format changed when the errors were noticed? I'm not saying the "c" word...:)

James Gallo (who has an awesome collection by the way) said he found some in New York. Where else have they been found?

Todd, you noticed Baker, which is what led to me looking at all the other cards, so glad you decided to check in. Thanks

I have always thought these cards were very cool, but have not seen any in 10 years until I saw the Sisler for sale and Leon's cards. I bought three because I've always liked them.

As for Baby Ruth, I have a modern comparison: I was a Joe Montana fan and collected his cards. I found his toughest card to be the 1988 Starline Prototypes, the set of which was comprised of four cards, all quarterbacks: Elway, Simms, Kosar, Montana. It is very hard to find any of these cards, but especially Montana. It's so hard to find that an ex-mt ungraded version will sell for 400+. There were only 75 made of each player.

Left Hand batters:
1. Ruth
2. Rice
3. Judge
4. Sisler
5. Bagby (switch)
6. Doyle
7. Bancroft (switch)
8. Baker
9. Cobb
10. Schang
11. Mays
12. Milan

Left hand Throwers:
1. Ruth
2. Judge
3. Sisler

1. Ruth: LH/LH
2. Rice: bat LH, Throw: RH
3. Judge: LH/LH
4. Bodie: RH/RH
5. Sisler: LH/LH
6. Burns: RH/RH
7. Johnson: RH/RH
8. Bagby: S/RH
9. Doyle: Bats LH, Throws RH
10. Bancroft: S/RH
11. Baker: Bat LH, throw RH
12. Cobb: Bat LH, throw RH
13. Groh: RH/RH
14. Hornsby: RH/RH
15. Konetchy: RH/RH (pitching appearance in ’18)
16. Cadore: RH/RH
17. Schang: S/RH
18. Mays: Bat LH/Throw RH
19. Milan: Bat LH, Throw RH
20. Schalk: RH/RH

As Matt has said previously, the uniforms corresponded with the written names, evidence that the faces that were switched were done so accidentally. Therefore, the artist(s) was not familiar with the players, only provided with information.
The fact that Sisler and Rice's images were combined is evidence that the artist took a "short-cut" to completion of their respective cards. Both Sisler and Rice's poses are that of a pitcher, which is what they were in 1915-1916.

Cobb (CF) hitter and Base Stealer (offense)
Schang (C) hit by pitch 33 times 1915-1917
Sam Rice (P)
Johnson (P) 619 strike-outs 1915-1917
Sisler (1b), as seen on Judge’s card, pitcher 1915-16
HR Baker (3B) as seen on Konetchy’s card (*But not participating*)

• Konetchy and Mays are dressed exactly alike
• Sisler (St Louis Browns), Groh (Reds), Rice (Wash), and Judge (Wash) are exactly alike except for undershirt
• Judge (Washington) and Groh (Reds) are exactly alike
• Sisler and Rice are exact
• Same pants, red & white pin stripe: Baker, Bodie, George J. Burns
• Shirt, red and white pin stripe: Doyle,

• Two players at each position with each using opposite hand?
• New York rivalries?
• Don’t forget hitting pitchers and hitter that were former pitchers
• Ruth’s uniform does not match the New York Uniforms, at least as depicted by the manufacturer. The new Yorker’s stripes were consistent
• Ruth had wrinkled forehead and small cleft
• Real life clefts: Rice, Ruth, Sisler (Rice ID’ed,
• The uniforms corresponded with the written names, evidence that the faces were accidentally switched.
• Konetchy had a pitching appearance in ‘18
• Cobb is returning to second as Mays checks the runner

Boston Red Sox
• Babe Ruth 1914-1919 (RC) limited play in 1914
• Carl Mays 1915-1919 (RC)
• Schang 1918-1920
Washington Senators
• Walter Johnson 1907-1927 (“W” on chest)
• Joe Judge 1915-1932 (RC)
• Clyde Milan 1907-1922
• Sam Rice 1915-1933 (RC)(Pitcher 1915-1916)
Detroit Tigers
• Ty Cobb
New York Yankees
• Frank Baker 1916-1922 NYA on chest (****Red and White striped pants****)
• Ping Bodie 1918-1921 (“B” on chest) (****Red and White striped pants****) correct
New York Giants
• Larry Doyle 1915-1916 and 1918-1920 (****Red and White striped shirt****)
• George Joseph Burns 1911-1921 (****Red and White striped pants****)
Brooklyn Robbins
• Leon Cadore 1915-1922 (RC) (“C” on chest)
Boston Red Sox
• Babe Ruth 1914-1919 (RC)
• Carl Mays 1915-1919 (RC)
Boston Braves
• Konetchy 1916-1918 (new team starting 1916)
Philadelphia Phillies
• David Bancroft 1915-1920 (RC)
Philadelphia A’s
• Ping Bodie 1917
• Schang 1913-1917
Chicago Cubs
• Larry Doyle 1916-1917 (Some kind of change in 1916)
Chicago White Sox
• Ray Schalk 1912-1928
Cincinnati Reds
• Heine Groh 1914-1921
St Louis Cardinals
• R. Hornsby 1915-1926 (RC)
St Louis Browns (American)
• Sisler
Cleveland Indians
• Jim Bagby 1916-1922 (only 17 IP with Reds in 1912)

I studied this era's strip cards for a few years and propose looking at these "Big Head" cards as an update to W516's checklist for 1921's opening day. It could be in response to complaints that original W516 strips looked dingy or empty.

W516 itself targeted 1920, since it lists Babe Ruth as "Yanks pitcher." He first played for NYY in 1920 _and_ switched to fulltime outfield duty that same year, which soon made "pitcher" out-of-date.

If this matches their approach, art tweaks give each player more space and better highlight faces and uniforms. Based on earlier research in this thread, they still made name/face mistakes and must've focused on Ruth's reputation as "famous slugger who wears Yankee pinstripes" and missed his handedness. Those "+" printing guide marks also appear on W516s with thicker stock, so must've come off similar equipment.

I attached images showing these W516 changes, plus similar tweaks to this company's W529 boxing and Hollywood actor strips. In each case, they removed extraneous text, filled up each card image, and made them more engaging. Too bad they made so few cards in this style!

This is a great, old thread.
I guess I collected the set at one time. Now, I am relegated to type cards again...
I always like the ones with full borders...

https://www.luckeycards.com/bighead.jpg