19th century " Holy Grail "
 

We all know the 1952 Topps Mantle is considered the " Holy Grail " for post-war cards and the T206 Wagner fills the same role for pre-war cards. What card do you believe is or could turn into the " Holy Grail " of 19th century collecting or are there simply too many extreme rarities for any one card to stand alone?

Three that are worthy of consideration:

1) N172 Anson in Uniform
2) Just So Cy Young
3) Four Base Hits Mike Kelly

There are other rarities, but hard to surpass this trio.

My two cents
 

I would agree with Barry and say the 1893 Just So Tobacco Cy Young. To the best of my knowledge only 1 is known to exist. Does a board member own this card, or does anyone know of other examples that are out there?

Tony

I will second that motion....
 

I think this list is pretty good. IN terms of importance I might feather my own nest and throw in the 1869 Peck and Snyder. It's hard to argue the significance of the undisputed first professional card. Great question, Gary....and it was nice chatting with you, for quite a while, at the National. We'll have to do it again!!

There is only one Just So Cy Young known, and it is owned by a board member. Of the three cards I cited, it would likely be the most valuable.

Leon's Peck and Snyder is extremely important, but not at the rarity level of the other three.

Population estimates: one Cy Young, two Mike Kellys, four Ansons (one is in the Burdick Collection), and maybe 15-25 1869 Reds.

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

team cards?
 

The 1869 Peck and Snyder does meet the criteria if you are including a team card. If not...then I have to give it some more thought. Most 19th century cards have limited availability to start with....

Based on that criteria, I would say either the N162 Anson or King Kelly.

Gary- the 1869 Reds team card may be the only 19th century one to fit the criteria of being rare and historically important, and actually be attainable. If you want one you can get it (I know you already have:)).

Most of the others simply aren't. You can't put a Four Base Hits of Kelly or a Just So of Cy Young on your wantlist. It just won't happen.

Richard- I just sent you two more emails and they both came back undeliverable. Do you know what the problem is?

How about the 1888 G & B Chewing Gum Albert Spalding.........

I have to say Just So Young. What about the Just So Ewing that was just discovered?

If availability is one of the main criteria, it would have to be one of the major HOF players from the N28, N162 or N172 sets. The N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson or the N162 Goodwin Cap Anson are probably available enough to have widespread appeal.

Phil- the G & B Spalding is an excellent addition to the list. That one too is unique, I believe.

I would say the N172 Harry Wright would fit well in all 3 areas.

For me, it would be the FBH Kelly.
http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51...%20Redlegs.JPG

I'll probably never own the Kelly but I do have the Peck & Snyder.

Anson in uniform hands down imo.

Best player from the most mainstream 19th century set, extremely valuable/desirable card.

Just So Young is the card that I would personally want the most though.

Aaron beat me to it, but I also suggest the N172 of Harry Wright---a highly desirable card that is very tough to come by, esp in a grade above a 1 or a 2, but CAN be had if one waits a long while!

I am with Jeff on this one. I think the N172 Anson in uniform is it. I would personally probably rather have the Just So Cy Young, but the fact that only one exists makes it so tough that it is almost not collectable. I think the two would roughly be of equal value at auction.
JimB

I realize this is a memorabilia piece
 

But my holy grail is this item

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dauvray_Cup

Rich

<b>N172 Anson in uniform</b>

It has been an extremely special card for generations.

The cards identified (N172 Anson in uniform, T206 Wagner, '52 Mantle) are all rare in ~ equal proportions w.r.t. their contemporaries (in case of Mantle, comparing '52 Topps High #s with all post-war issues). It would be unfair to pick a 19th century card that is as common as a Wagner.

Hmmm.... I'm trying to figure something out. Are we looking for a card that is rare or something that helps define "common" collected cards? The T206 Wagner is from a "commonly" collected set as is the 1952 Topps Mantle. This would almost have to make the card an OJ (N172) or something else like that. What else do we know about the other "holy grail" cards? The T206 Wagner is a scarce card from the T206 set. The 1952 Topps Mantle comes from the high series. How does that impact the idea of subjectively selecting a 19th century holy grail card? Personally, the N172 Anson in uniform makes the most sense because it is a rarity from a widely collected set. This is just my opinion and everybody knows about opininons - they're like a$$holes, everbody's got one....

For me, the choices are easy: Just So Young and G&B Spalding. I think the Boston Cigar Radbourn wouldn't be too far behind.

If you throw in the criteria that the card is "obtainable" (at least a few exist), I'd probably go with the Kalamazoo Bat Harry Wright, plus N173s of Ewing and Mascot (I have one!) and Delahanty with bat on shoulder. I believe I once saw a photo of a Gypsy Queen portrait of Radbourn -- I'd toss that in too, although I'm not sure if it qualifies as "obtainable".

Based on that criteria, I would say the Anson in uniform OJ.

The Holy Grail for me would be the Jim Creighton P&S memorial 'CDV'

I'd go with the N172 Anson in uniform.

Fred makes a good point in favor of the N172 Anson in uniform. It is a very scarce and desirable card of a top tier HOF from a commonly collected set - the most widely collected set of the era.

As much as I love the Just So Cy Young and the 4BH Kelly, or card the N167 Ewing for that matter, those sets are so scarce that they cannot be widely collected. Obviously there are not many that are actually trying to complete (if even possible) the N172 set, there are many active collectors of various sub-sets within it.
JimB

grail
 

one more for N172 Anson in uniform.

best,
barry

It seems the N172 Anson in uniform is the most mentioned choice and probably the best given the criteria. Anson career was as long and prolific as just about any 19th century player. I would say the N172 set is the most widely collected and popular 19th century set. And finally, the Anson is
" possible " to obtain.

Leon- Nice to see you at the National. Thanks for the assist.

I would disagree in that the Anson is virtually impossible to obtain. The three in private hands may stay with their owners a very long time.

19th century grail
 

Looking at the criteria similar to the Wagner, I'd have to say the old judge Anson in Uniform. A few reasons are that Anson's a big HOFer, scarcity of the card, and that it is from the largest BB card set from that era.
Just my opinion!

Anson in Uniform. The T206 Wagner is what it is because it is part of the most widely collected vintage card set. The Old Judge set is the most widely collected 19th century set and the Anson in Uniform is the crown jewel of that set.

Joe G made a great point -

<b>The cards identified (N172 Anson in uniform, T206 Wagner, '52 Mantle) are all rare in ~ equal proportions <font color="red">w.r.t.</font> their contemporaries </b>


Barry's correct about the attainability of the N172 Anson in uniform -you probably wont get one unless you know someone that has one and that person that owns it is willing to "get rid of IT". But when you look at the other cards that are being offered up as the holy grail there are fewer of those cards "known to exist" (probably not available) than the OJ Anson in uniform.

Can someone post a picture of this beautiful rarity? Thank you.

Here you go.

Thanks sir.

Another vote for the N172 Anson in Uniform.

While one is not likely to come up for sale anytime soon, there have been two examples auctioned off publicly in the last 20 years - one in the Sotheby's Copeland sale and another by Lew Lipset.

There was also a private sale about 12 years ago; that accounts for the three known examples.

Does anyone know why the Anson card is so scarce?

Nobody knows why it is so scarce, and it seems like a bit of an anomaly given how popular Anson was. And why doesn't he have even one batting pose? Look how many Mike Kelly has. There is a mystery about Anson's appearance in the set for sure.

Many of the rarities in the Old Judge set are from the 1888 Fb issue (as are the Anson in Uniform and the Harry Wright third pose).

Jay- don't you find it odd that Kelly, Ward, Clarkson, Ewing et al. had so many poses, while Anson had only two, one which likely was impossible to find even at the time of issue?

I'd have to agree with Anson in Uniform for the toughest. My OWN personal holy grail of 19th century would be a (or THE) Pete Browning OJ Cabinet.

Doesn't it seem that Anson has relatively fewer different images from his playing days than do others in his class. A non portrait pose of Anson in uniform is a rarity. Right now I'm having a hard time thinking of one on a baseball card.

There's a line drawing of Anson in the Yum Yum set, with a likely counterpart in G & B, that is an action pose...and the one portrait in that set is a mislabeled image of Ned Williamson!

Not really a card, but how about the 1840's photo of the NY Knickerbockers w/Alexander Cartwright?

That's a daguerreotype, and like all dags it is unique. Certainly a monumental photo, but not a card.

Thanks, Barry, that's the word that I was looking for. I knew it wasn't an albumen photo.

Barry--There are a lot of oddities. Why didn't Ewing, one of the preeminent players of the day, have an 1887 Old Judge card? BTW, Brouthers, also a star, had only three poses.

The issue with Anson in Uniform may also be that Anson didn't like the card. Remember from the book that the card is a composite of Anson's head and Dalrymple's body. Maybe he didn't like this and had his card pulled. Who knows?

As I said, it's a bit of a mystery. I could see him not liking that pose.

Does anyone have images of all the cards mentioned? I would love to see a scan of the Just So Cy Young card.

Here's Cy:

Here's the Four Base Hits King Kelly............

My opinion, P & S Creighton...for one main reason. That is the only card of his, period. And one of only two known photographic images of any kind. The other candidates are all incredible examples. And, as a practical matter, they are all impossible to obtain. But cards of Anson and Kelly (factoring other poses/issues) are easy to obtain. In regard to Spalding, there are a multitude of other cards that depict him in a team context. And in the solo context, though harder, there are at least two known cabinets/Cdv's.

Corey- over fifty posts and nobody thought of Creighton. Another worthy contender (and it's "grammar").

Corey--No doubt a great card but to be "The" 19th century card, the equivalent of the T206 Wagner. I would think the player should, at a minimum, be a HOFer. I don't believe that Creighton is. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he only play at the highest level for a few years? Your Young, now that's a different story.

Jay- he died at 21, so he didn't play too long period. But he was a star at 17.

Exactly--so he is basically Charlie Ferguson from the Old Judge set (a great player who died in his prime).

Creighton has become a cult figure, as he was the game's first great star.

Barry... I selected the P&S Creighton on post 24 :)... after selecting the Anson in uniform give the criteria...

Barry--I bet 90+% of 19th century collectors can't even tell you what team he played for.

For my nickel, after the Creighton (and to second what Barry said, he is regarded as the game's first superstar) would be the 4BH Kelly. I have always regarded it as the most artistic 19th century card I have ever seen. In the photo shoot which generated the image used for card, multiple poses were shot. One of the other poses in fact exists in imperial cabinet form. At the time the card was produced, Kelly was at the absolute zenith of his career, which I think also is relevant. The Four Base Hits issue is highly regarded, and even a common is a highly coveted item. Being then part of an incredibly scare issue to me adds to the allure. Finally, the Kelly is the only known non-portrait card in the issue.

Much has been said after the N172 Anson in uniform. No doubt it is an incredible card. The thing though which detracts from it, in regard to Holy Grail status, is that it is not Anson's only card in the issue (the other pose being a relatively easy card to obtain). That distinguishes it in a crucial way from the T206 Wagner (as well as the other 19th candidates we have been discussing). Had there been other poses of Wagner in the T206 issue, it is unclear to me whether THE pose would be so desirable.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/916...22b318c1fo.jpg

From The Library of Congress

is that a homophone he's leaning against?

Hi Jimmy- sorry I missed that.:o

I understand we are talking about "The Grail", but ... '52 Mantle has thousands of examples, and the t-206 Wagner has close to a hundred. Both common in their respective sets and in my opinion very over rated. I think the grail in pre war is the Baltimore Ruth or t210 Jax. In 19th century, 4bh Kelly is unreal and one of the top 5 cards in the hobbby hands down.

The props in the FBH Kelly are different than in the cabinet of Kelly. Also, no Boston on the FBH Kelly's shirt. I know the BOSTON could have been added, but what about the props. Different shoots?

There is only one great 19th century set and that is the Old Judge set. Anson in Uniform is a true rarity, of possibly the greatest 19th century player, and the key card of the set, which is why it is my choice. Kelly 4BH is a great card, but it is from a set that cannot practically be collected. I would think that the K-Bat Ewing is a better choice than the Kelly, but still no where near the Anson in Uniform level. The K-Bat Ewing is a rare card of a better player than Kelly (I think Kelly is possibly the most over rated 19thy century player--but that is another story). BTW, these debates are always fun.

I don't know too much about 19th century, but the 4bh is a very cool looking card.

My third choice after the Creighton and Kelly would be the Just So Young. Like Four Base Hits, Just Sos are incredibly rare; for a type collector getting a common is very difficult. What makes the Young so special is that it is the only 19th century card (excluding studio cabinets) of arguably the greatest pitcher of all time, and shows him young and trim near the outset of his career. Another ten years will pass before his next card.

I agree with Jay; this is a fun debate.:)

For me, it's the Creighton. Nothing else even comes close.

Without the "For me" qualifier, I think the answer has to be Anson in uniform followed by Just So Cy Young.

The T206 Wagner is clearly the "Holy Grail" of all baseball cards, even though it's far from that for me.

So I guess if you ask me what THE Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say Anson in uniform. And if you ask me what MY Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say the Creighton Peck & Snyder.

-Ryan

missing the boat...
 

Most folks in this thread are missing the boat by giving the right answer to the wrong question.....Above Gary stated one of the criteria...

"It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible."

I would challenge anyone to show me how that question is answered with most of these answers. Are these mentioned cards available enough to be collectible? Nice debate and certainly what this board is best at.....(imo)

Leon - Bingo! See my entries about 50 posts above.

Everyone is trying to name the rarest or earliest or most valuable card. That's fine, but not responsive to the original question.

The fact there isn't already a Holy Grail of 19th Century Cards, probably means there never will be one card.

IMHO, part of the the problem is that there are so many sets, not just individual cards that are in short supply, no one card will ever stand out.

In that case I really can't think of a 19th century card as overrated as the Wagner or Mantle so I stumped.

Maybe a better thread would be "Who actually wants one of the Holy Grails?"

I have never owned a T206 Wagner or 1952 Topps Mantle, nor do I think that I ever will really want to given how much they sell for.

Rman and Wes
 

Rman and Wes.......Exactly.....we are seeing it the same way. IF we leave out the part about enough copies to be collectible then certainly Anson in Uniform, Just So Young, P and S Creighton and FBH Kelly would be at the top of many, if not most lists..However, with the Anson in Uniform being a total of 4 copies known, and the other 3 far less, these are not the correct answers.

Several board members, of course including myself, own an 1869 Peck and Snyder team card...AND they are available enough to own one if you want to (and have the money). Now, to get technical I don't think Gary mentioned it could be a team card, so if it can't then I am not sure what one I would pick. I kind of like the N172 Ewing and mascot.....it's a great card but I doubt there will be a good, overwhelming consensus on what the 19th Century holy grail is...best regards

There is no consensus, and there are too many rare 19th century cards. Every Kalamazoo Bats New York Giant or New York Met has 1-3 known, but none of them would qualify. There are probably at least half a dozen cards worthy of the title, and the best you could do in determining a winner is to have a poll.

Along the lines of Leon's post (Hi, Leon), what if we limited our choices to something approaching the availability of the Wagner - say at least 50-100 examples or more. If we rule out team cards and the ultra rare cards of great players, where does that leave us? The 1952 Topps Mantle and the T206 Wagner are clearly the Grail cards of their eras even though the Mantle is not rare and not a rookie, and there are far tougher Wagners than the T206. I don't think there is a true Grail card for the 19th century, although there are certainly some great cards and some tough cards out there, as well as personal favorites. The N162 Anson comes close, though, IMHO.

Arthur (starring Dudley Moore)
 

I think most of us answered the original question. I didn't even see the modifications mentioned later. In fact, the stipulations added seem very contradictory to the original question, in my opinion.

In the original post we are asked if there are simply too many "extreme rarities" for any one card to stand alone. Then later we are told it would have to be a "special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible."

If a card is "available enough to be collectible" it is automatically NOT a Holy Grail card in my opinion. That's one reason the Mantle and Wagner are both NOT Holy Grail cards. Might be collectible and desirable, but a true Holy Grail card should be nearly impossible. Not impossible. But NEARLY impossible.

Maybe I have a different understanding of the term "Holy Grail" than most. I am unfamiliar with the legend that tells of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table and their quest to find one of 80 or so examples of the Holy Grail.

Sir Lancelot: OMG! You'll never believe what I picked up in the last SCP Auction!
King Arthur: Wow! Sounds exciting. What it is? A one-of-a-kind item?
Sir Lancelot: Even better! It's a Holy Grail! I was the underbidder on the last 4 that came up for auction, but now I finally have a Holy Grail of my own!
King Arthur: Congrats, buddy! Yeah, I'm looking to upgrade my Holy Grail and there's a nice PSA 4 in the next online auction to close. Like you and I, the auction that's selling it is LEGENDARY!
Sir Lancelot: ROFLMAO!!!
Guinevere: I'd do just about ANYTHING to, I mean "for" anyone brave enough to find the only example of the only card of baseball's first superstar.
Sir Lancelot: Hey, um, I gotta split, Arthur. I'm pretty sure the Holy Grail I just bought was touched up and the images in the auction catalog were doctored since I bought it from SCP. I need to replace it. I think I'll head to the east coast to track down a lead on a Jim Creighton card I heard about. I know, it's no Holy Grail, but still pretty damn cool and far more important than most collectors realize. I might be interested in one of your Holy Grail dupes if I can't get the Creighton. Take good care of that wife of yours, friend, while you still can.
King Arthur: Take good care of my wife? While I still can? WTF???
Sir Lancelot: Um, what I mean is, uh, you never know what can happen in this crazy world. Look at it this way, if anything ever happened to you...or, worst-case, if anything happened to your wife, not like dying or anything, but if she wasn't around any more for whatever reason, at least you'd still have that Holy Grail of yours to keep you company. So you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
King Arthur: Okay, well, see ya, Lancey (said with Bush-like giggle). By the way, what the hell is "baseball" and where is this "east coast" you speak of?
Sir Lancelot (galloping off, voice fading): So long, sucker!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannddddd.....scene.

Anyway, I hope this little mini-play gets my point across: It might make you feel like a king to own what most consider a Holy Grail, but you're one of many, and the guy with the real Holy Grail is probably sleeping with your wife.

Shame on you, Corey!!!

-Ryan