Moonlight Graham pc on ebay
 

Did a board member win this? Pretty cool Moonlight Graham piece... (top row, w/o the hat?)

LINK

http://stats.knightsbridge1.com/scranton1.jpg

That is a great looking postcard. I knew that there is a serious Scranton collector out there, so I was expecting it go for around $75.00-100.00. Now I know why it went for so much coin.

I was the underbidder. I thought for sure I'd found something someone else had missed. Boy was I wrong. Great piece. Congrat's to the winner.

Tony A.

I thought the same. Man, we have similar taste in cards Tony!

Jeff. I've noticed that. Great minds think alike..... :)

Tony A.

Deleted

The hatless guy looks like him to me...

scan stolen from Rhett's site...

http://www.starsofthediamond.com/moonlightgraham.JPG

What would that piece go for if Moonlight was not made famous by the movie Field of Dreams.

I was buying up Scranton pieces before SABR put their Minor League database on the internet for all to see for about $50-$75 each but now that this is public knowledge those days are over. He is 100% in the picture, I have owned several different 1907 Scranton postcards with the same player identified on the front as "Graham". I bid $415 and thought I would win it for less than $200 but was surprised to have been outbid by multiple people at that level. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted!

Rhys

Nobody would care about Graham if not for the movie. Kinsella could have picked another great baseball name, such as Icehouse Wilson from the 1934 Tigers, and revolved the plot around him, thereby etching a different obscure player's name into the memory banks of modern-day fans. It bothers me how much Graham's memorabilia fetches just because an author plucked him out of the 15,000+ players who have made the big time. Yes, the real Archie Graham was a doctor who lived in Chisholm, MN and had a wife name Alicia. For all we know, she really could have favored blue hats. As someone who thinks every player's biography is equally important to preserve, the hype has always bothered me. After all, people don't collect Babe Ruth material because they're huge William Bendix or John Goodman fans; why collect Moonlight memorabilia because you`re enamored with either Kinsella`s book or Burt Lancaster`s preformance? Oddly, Eddie Waitkus memorabilia never really skyrocketed because his case was the basis for The Natural.

(Yes, we`ve debated this one before. I realize all of the Moonlight devotees have passionate reasons for craving this sort of material, but I`ll never understand why!)

Well, how many guys are in the baseball encyclopedia with no at bats who are reasonably close to Iowa and have a cool nickname? :D

edited to add: I looked up Icehouse Wilson and the dude was from California (not on the way to Fenway park from Iowa) and he got his one at bat.

Yes, and a pinch hitter in his one game, to boot!:) I was waiting for someone to notice the glaring opposites between the cases of Wilson and Graham!

Rhys - do you have scans of any of the other Scranton PCs you owned with Graham?

What a great piece! The price was out of my league, but it makes more sense to me than a lot of prices I see out there. The real "Moonlight" Graham actually looks more like a young Burt Lancaster than the guy who played the younger version of him in "The Natural."

The film touched peoples' hearts; it idealizes baseball and what it means to people who are crazed enough to spend big on cardboard, and they want to touch some part of that magic in their collections:

"Ray, people will come Ray. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only $20 per person. They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk out to the bleachers; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the baselines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... people will come Ray. People will most definitely come."

Geez, that gave me tingles just reading it. With James Earl Jones in my head to boot...

anyone know who the seller is?

Jodi I understand totally
 

But do you really think that anyone would care about Bob Uecker cards if he was not sitting in the "front row". Sometimes; for whatever reasons; people become much better known after their playing careers so if Archibald is getting more famous 100 years after his major league playing career -- that is OK by me. Fame is a weird thing and people who are famous one day (Eddie Fisher; once involved in the most torrid affair in Hollywood, can turn 81 years old this week and is now just a blip in people's memories)

Rich

Nostalgic figures in the game whom have a certain mystique about them are all still part of this wonderful game which we call baseball.
Archibald "Moonlight Graham has become just that. Game or movie related, makes absolutely no difference to me. I love it all.
Just one collectors thoughts.....

Tony A.

There is no doubt that FoD is a wonderful movie, and I really did enjoy Lancaster's role as Graham. I am a baseball autograph completionist (meaning I want at least one signature of everybody), so I would like an Archie Graham one day. It just blows me away when it comes to the kind of money people spend on his memorabilia. If I wasn't after everybody's signature, I'd rather own a Burt Lancaster signed 8X10 in character as Graham, stepping out of the shadows on a dark Chisholm night. Can't say as I've ever seen one offered, though.

I like Rich's reverse take on this matter. Fame is certainly fleeting. It reminds me of, Sinatra aside, how little anyone cares about big band memorabilia anymore. Glenn Miller was the biggest musician in his time. He disappeared over 60 years ago, but you can still pick up a cut signature for under $100. It really makes me wonder, Beatles aside, how much people are going to care about rock memorabilia once the baby boomers have all died off.

So the laurel fades
In the snow-swept glades
Of flying years,
And the dreams of youth
Learn the bitter truth
Of pain and tears.

Through the cheering mass
Let the victors pass
To find fate's thrust,
As tomorrow's fame
Writes another name
On drifting dust.

I know I'm gonna' be struck down by a lightning bolt, but "Field of Dreams" never did much for me. On the other hand, talk about chills:

"Mr. Watkins, It is extremely important that I see you as soon as possible. We're not acquainted, but I have something of importance to speak to you about. I think it would be to your advantage to let me explain this to you as I am leaving the hotel the day after tomorrow. I realize this is out of the ordinary, but as I say, it is extremely important."

-- Ruth Ann


36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- 36 -- Scott

Popularity in pop culture commands a certain value also.

Imagine if somebody like Obama or Michael Jackson had been aspiring baseball players in their younger years and had a couple obscure minor league cards issued before they left the game.

I imagine they would be commanding Mantlesque prices right now.

As a Boxing guy I have people calling me all the time looking for boxing items from the R&B singer Jackie Wilson (he was an Amateur Champion). There were several Jackie Wilson's active during his time period, some very good boxers, but I have yet to come across anything on THE Jackie Wilson everybody seems to be looking for.

I find this thread fascinating BTW. I hadn't even known there was Moonlight Graham stuff out there before this.

Nice poetry Jodi
 

And yes; that is exactly what I meant. Although every once in a while I enjoy listening to Bix; I doubt that most other people on this board even realize whom I'm discussing here. And I bet Bix's autographs are real tough as he died IIRC in 1931 at a very young age.

And although, not a major leaguer; I was shown a minor league card of James Jones from 1952 at the National. (I believe it was from John Rumeriez) And yes; that is the same James Jones better known as the Reverand Jim Jones who became famous thanks to some kool aid. 25-30 years ago, that card would have far more interesting than it is today as the Jonestown experience is now part of the 70's which is nearly 4-5 decades away from our collective memories.

And things get more famous for various reasons. Did you know there was a second important college student massacre in 1970. But because this was at a "Black" College (Jackson State) and not memoralized in song -- how many people remember that. Or the same day as the famed Chicago Fire in 1871, a bigger fire in Peshtigo, Wisconsin took down a whole city and even more lives.

Fame is sure strange.

Rich

You're certainly correct that pop culture played the only role in securing Graham's fame. Therein lies my problem with it, I guess. While alive, Graham didn't do anything to earn his fame. Because his information was chosen for inclusion in a popular novel/movie, anything Moonlight-related is now worth big bucks. But yes, the movie means a great deal to many baseball fans.

I never knew Jackie Wilson was a boxer. After a particularly rough defeat, do you think he would often cry lonely teardrops?

Wilson's signature isn't the easiest to locate. He suffered a stroke while performing which left him incapacitated for the last decade of his life.

The poetry is part of something written by (I think) Grantland Rice. Fred Snodgrass quoted it in TGOTT. A great poem.

Funny you should mention Beiderbecke! I actually thought of mentioning him in an earlier post! I have seen two examples of his signature, but never actually held one in-person. His autograph would command a slight premium, but I doubt it would break the bank. Case in point: autographs of the so-called father of country music, Jimmie Rodgers, only turn up once every decade or so. He died of TB while still a young man, so there aren't many signatures to go around. The last one sold for under $1000 in auction, I believe.

Rich, what set is that Jones card from? I'd like to see that card.

I perfectly understand collecting baseball-related items of players who made their marks in other fields, and there certainly is an eclectic list of people who fit that category. I never knew that Jim Jones was a player. It would be interesting to see a scan of that card.

Dan
 

It was a globe minor league card from 1951-52. I don't remember what team unfortunately.

Rich Klein
 

I think recent research has debunked the infamous Jim Jones as being a ballplayer.

The Jim Jones you are referring to, is another person.

Rich, I think someone was pulling your leg. by 1951 Jim Jones had already joined the Communist Party and by 1952 had started his own church. I'm guessing it was a different James Jones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

edited to add Ted beat me to it.

I wouldn't mind seeing that either. I don't think that event is as far from our conscious as we might think.

Even today in political talk when somebody tells you "don't drink the Kool-Aid", it's a direct reference to Jonestown.

I would think a card like that might draw quite a premium if it was marketed as such.

Jody Birkholm
 

Great seeing you at the National.

Chuck Connors is one of my favorites, that had very short careers in the Major Leagues, NBA, and the NFL.
Yet his sportscards command a fairly high price.

Is this due to his Movies/TV career or simply the law of supply vs demand ?

I think it is a combination of all the above factors.


TED Z

Jim Jones
 

Rich,.....It's ironic how timely this post is. On my recent cross country trip, I visited with Bill McAvoy in Omaha, who shared the same story with me about Jim Jones, the player featured in the 1952/53 Globe Printing Sioux City Soos set. I had never heard that story and it intrigued me for the daylong drive from Omaha to Chicago. While in Chicago, I visited with a longtime minor league researcher, who brought up the file on Jim Jones. They are absolutely, positively, two different people. If someone overcharged you for that card based on it being the People's Temple Jones, and you need me to put it into print, I'll happily oblige... And , it was very nice visiting with you in Cleveland...:)

Ted,

I think the added value of Connors material is strictly due to his starring role in The Rifleman. Johnny Berardino never had his own starring vehicle, and his memorabilia prices are no greater than the average player's.

As to multi-sport players--Outside of HOFers (from any sport), very few seem to care. While guys like Cal Hubbard, George Halas and Greasy Neale carry obvious premiums, nobody cares much about Skip Roberge, Gene Conley or Howie Schultz.

To add to one of my previous thoughts, I think it's a safe bet that the price of Connors items will also dip with the passage of time. Once the target market is gone, so are the sales. We can only hope that this sentiment won't be indicative of the fate of pre-war baseball collecting as a whole.

Mark, it was good seeing you too
 

and no I did not buy that card; I was just fascinated by the story -- I'll talk to John at next year's National and we'll ferret out where he got the story about the Jim Jones being the same. So, no loss to my pocketbook AND we solved a hobby mystery (even if it is a "modern-day" one). Now that's what I consider a good day.

Rich

Makes you realize how much easier information is to find nowadays then it used to be. I imagine it was much easier to pass on inaccurate information like this before the advent of the internet, google and research forums.

I mentioned Jackie Wilson before. There were two fairly well known professional boxers named Jackie Wilson (one was an Olympic medalist and the other was a lesser known World Champion) who fought in the 1940's. One from Pittsburgh and one from California. A cursory look at their records would indicate it would be impossible for either to be the R&B singer Jackie Wilson as the times don't really match up. The singer Jackie was only 15 around the time both these guys retired.

Yet, people who don't know any better get excited they finally found the Young Jackie Wilson boxing image they were always looking for when they stumble across an image of the two I mentioned earlier.

And for those of you whom who have never listened
 

[QUOTE=JBirkholm;741805]The poetry is part of something written by (I think) Grantland Rice. Fred Snodgrass quoted it in TGOTT. A great poem.

Funny you should mention Beiderbecke!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhXKRtqvI4c

Enjoy!

Rich

There is some actual performance footage of Bix; I know Ken Burns showed it in his jazz documentary. But of course there isn't much.

Jody B......
 

I really don't expect Chuck Connors cards to diminish in value in the near future. Forty years have passed since
his Movies/TV (Rifleman) days and the interest in his sportscards are still strong.

Another BB player turned actor....Mike "turkey trot" Donlin....100 years later and he still has quite a following.


TED Z

At this point my comment seems a bit O/T, but....

The Graham image for the Sporting Life composite and "Graham" in the team pc appear to match extremely well in all aspects. Further, it is easy to match Zeimer and McDougal, just to the rt. of Graham in the pc, to their respective images in the composite. This tells us that the guy's height appears close to Graham's.

Others matches are easy to find. So the pc is Scranton c1907.

So, if there was any remaining question. I would say that this is a well confirmed ID of Graham.

Barry that reminds me of my favorite Ken Burns story
 

When Marty Appel was the PR guy for Topps; we were chatting about his King Kelly book (Must reading by the way for you 19th century types). He mentioned he had seen a photo on Burns' Baseball of Kelly he had never seen before. So he called up the office; asked about the photo and was told something to the effect of "Well, that is someone who looked like him, so we just ran with it"

I've never quite looked at those documentaries the same way since. Also; since the infamous (on SABR-L) board discussions about the inaccuracies either.

Rich

In Burns documentary of Jack Johnson they identified a photo of "Barbados" Joe Walcott as being of Sam Langford.

I'm pretty sure it was just an inadvertent mistake as there are plenty actual photos of Sam Langford out there.

Still a great documentary however.

Rich- I realize that there were some errors in all the Burns documentaries, but I know Bix Beiderbecke and I have seen footage of him.

I took a course in the 1970's at the New School in NYC called Jazz on Film. It was a great class and we saw footage of Bix, and Burns had the same one. I know my memory could be playing tricks but I think I'm right on this one. He died in 1931, which leaves a very small window for sound film, but like I said, it does exist.

Now that's a course I wish I taken at school
 

Sure beats The History of the English Language from 1500-1800 :)

It was a cool class, and I didn't take it for credit, it was just for fun. It was taught by the late Dave Chertok, who amassed an encyclopedic archive of jazz on film. Ken Burns was very indebted to that collection for his documentary.

I like Burns Baseball, but there are some inaccuracies. I also think he should have included The Nebraska Indians who preceded and popularized some of the barnstorming antics the House of David and other barnstorming teams became famous for. But I may be biased. :D

Poem in GOTT, etc.
 

It was actually Bill Wambsganss reading Grantland Rice in the audio version of The Glory of Their Times, which I co-produced and edited with Neal McCabe. And speaking of mistakes, the most egregious in the Burns production was not using the real voices for his many quotes from GOTT. I've always suspected Burns of wanting the chance to hang out with the actors he has reading the bits, but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, could top the real guys Ritter captured on his tape recorder. Anybody who's listened to the set knows what I mean. And lastly, as a big Bix fan, I would love to see footage of him playing. I've always assumed none existed.

Here's the complete poem "The Way of the Game" as read by "Wamby" on GOTT:

Now summer goes and tomorrow's snows
Will soon be deep.
And skies of blue, which the summer knew
See shadows creep.
And the gleam tonight, which is silver bright
Spans ghostly forms.
As the winds rush by with their warning cry
Of coming storms.
So the laurel fades in the snow-swept glades
Of flying years.
As the dreams of youth find the bitter truth
Of pain and tears.
Through the cheering mass let the victors pass
To find fate's thrust.
As tomorrow's fame writes another name
On drifting dust.

Hank,

Sorry for my mistake on the Snodgrass/Wamby. I recall that Wambsganss said that he kept that poem in his wallet until it disintegrated.

Back to the original postcard. I do find it amazing that because of a book and a movie a piece like this would command this kind of a price. I am a firm believer of collect what you like and money is relative to each person. But in the same breathe I find it amazing that the postcard pictured below can be found in the $250.00 range when a damaged postcard of an obscure player commands $460.00. I suppose that one is rarer than the other but the Detroit cards don't come up that often. I'm sure the new owner is very happy with his purchase.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...ces/cobbpc.jpg

Bix lives
 

Very interesting thread. Civil discourse, to boot. N54 at it's best. I'd be content to just sit back and lurk but any thread that mentions Bix Beiderbecke and I'm in there like a dirty shirt. In fact, some of you may recall my pre-hard drive crash nom de plume on the old Board, Big Spider Beck. In lockstep with my passion for vintage cardboard is my love of pre-war jazz from the '20's and '30's. Don't even get me started.
Here is a YouTube clip which purportedly contains the only appearance of Bix in a sound film. He appears around 1:10 for fifteen seconds or so. It's not Bix at his best but it's all we've got. I have also seen a documentary which had a few seconds of silent footage of Bix walking with a group of musicians. As Annette Hanshaw would say, "That's all."

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RmD7jeIEkfg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RmD7jeIEkfg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

The reason why some obscure minor league cards can bring big premiums is because they are truly rare. I can guarantee you that there are at least 100 Detroit cards for every one of those Toledo cards. Some early rppc of minor league clubs don't even have to have a notable player on it to go for big dollars...I've paid a lot of money for early Lincoln postcards just because I may never get another chance at it....You'll always have a chance at that Detroit card even if it doesn't come up often...you'll see at least a few per year.

Thanks for that clip David, but I know I saw something else. Perhaps it was a piece of footage without sound, and then a recorded performance was added later.

There is likewise only a single sound performance of Charlie Parker (with Dizzy Gillespie on American TV in 1952). But I have seen clips of him playing with music added to the background. Maybe that's what I recall about Bix.

Bird on Video
 

Barry - Wasn't there some other Bird video floating around? Maybe with the Quintet? I need to check you tube (or Phil Schapp's web site)--

Just checked - all the YT clips are from the session w/Diz

Phil Schaap
 

Now that's a name from my past -- when I was at KCR I did some news casts during his Jazz program.

Unless his web site is Phil Schaap.Com please post the link to his site.

And as an FYI; Phil was also considered the best at Sports Trivia at KCR.

Regards
Rich

Birdflight
 

I can't find any website for him, but I figured that if there was Bird video, he would know about it. Birdflight is still a great listen on the morning commute.

Doesn't surprise me about the trivia- must run in the family

Phil Schapp still does a Charlie Parker show every morning on WKCR, and Out to Lunch from Noon to Three.

Judd- I don't think there is other Parker footage, unless it has been found recently. I haven't seen it.

Rich- I guess you went to Columbia. I think the website is www.wkcr.org.

BIRDLAND in the 1950's
 

JAZZ....one of my favorite subjects. During my College days in the late '50s (and early '60s), many of our evenings
were at the famous Jazz "hang out"....BIRDLAND. I was fortunate to see and hear such greats as......

Duke Ellington
Hoagy Carmichael
George Shearing
Dizzy Gillespie
Gerry Mulligan
Lionel Hampton
Count Basie
Dave Brubeck Quartet (Paul Desmond, Joe Morello, Eugene Wright)
Jack Teagarden (across Times Square at his Metropole)
and,
the mesmerizing Gene Krupa

It was the best of times to live near New York....be a Yankees fan....love Jazz.


TED Z

I love Jack Teagarden...ever see the film of Jack and Louis Armstrong singing "Rocking Chair?"

Check out Jack Teagarden's cover of Stars Fell on Alabama. More cooler no can get.
http://www.redhotjazz.com/teao.html

Jazz
 

Wild Bill Davison or Zoot Sims anyone?

My favorite jazz memory is seeing Sonny Rollins at Blues Alley in DC in '89 - went up from college my senior year without the then girlfriend (I think the quote was 'why would you want to do that?'). Great show and got a chance afterwards to sit down and talk to him for about 5-10 minutes. Priceless.

When I was in HS
 

My mom was acting dean at William Paterson College in NJ (A position she had for six years) and one of the things she "deaned" was the art/music department. Thad Jones was a teacher there and I got to see regular concerts (and go backstage afterwards) of Thad Jones/Mel Lewis. Those were always quite the treat!

I also saw an very aged Count Basie in concert due to the insistence of my folks who made sure I got to see the all time great -- sadly he did not have much left when I saw him c. 1976

Rich

If I may try:
Why does a T206 Ty Cobb carry more value then a Ed Abbaticchio? The old cardboard is worthless and the Abbaticchio is probably rarer. The fact that a player batted .400 or stole 20 bases doesn't inherantly make a cardboard likeness of them have value. Value is there because holding Cobb's image on a piece from his playing days connects you to all the stories that surround his career. The same is true with Archie "Moonlight" Graham. Only, his particular story took 80 years to become known. So long as the stories live on, the pieces have value.

Taking it a step further, would you suggest that Star Wars or Indiana Jones movie memorabilia is worthless because those items aren't even connected with anything that actually took place? Once again, it is the stories that are associated, which cause these items to have value.

With Archibald "Moonlight" Graham's story, as portrayed in Field of Dreams, you have the dramatic and inspiring story of someone who came so close to their adolescent dream only to see it disappear and then by some miracle be given a second chance 80 years later.

"Fifty years ago, for five minutes you came within... you came this close. It would kill some men to get so close to their dream and not touch it. God, they'd consider it a tragedy."

Only, the story was about a real player and this postcard is one of only a handful of artifacts with Moonlight Graham on it that still exist 100 years later. It carries with it that moving drama and therefore, quite a bit of value.

Now back to your easy listening station.

Barry and David......
 

I saw Jack Teagarden play his sweet sounding trombone many times at his place (The Metropole) in Times Square.
We'd switch between his place and Birdland (only 2 blocks away) depending on who the featured Jazz artist was.

My all time favorites are George Shearing and Lionel Hampton.

And, I cannot leave out Paul Desmond.....with his sweetest sounding Alto Sax.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/jackteagarden.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

[QUOTE=Matt;742032]

With Archibald "Moonlight" Graham's story, as portrayed in Field of Dreams, you have the dramatic and inspiring story of someone who came so close to their adolescent dream only to see it disappear and then by some miracle be given a second chance 80 years later.

QUOTE]


OK, but please keep it in mind that this may all very well be artistic liberty on the part of the author. None of us ever sat next to Graham on a barstool and heard him lament about his failed opportunity. Either way, I understand how collectors and fans who saw the film have found themselves embraced by Kinsella's romanticised notion; it's what drags all of us out to the movie theaters to escape our workaday lives to begin with!

It really surprises me how many of you guys are into the early jazz kick. I could be in a room of 10,000 people and utter the names of Hoagy or Bix, and everybody would look at me as if I were a Martian. :D