'William Tell Research' Autograph Authentication?
 

Anyone familiar with these people? The authenticator's name is Frank Garo.

He is one step above Morales.

If Frank Garo is a step above Morales, you're a 1000 steps below everyone else with your smug, sanctimonious diatribes against everyone that you do not deign to have "clean hands". I and many other collectors have used Frank Garo and found him to not only be good but HONEST. Unfortunately, he's not in the "big boys" loop and gets lumped together with incompetents by know it alls like you. By the way Mr. Jaffe, unlike you, Mr. Garo has never been in trouble with the law and does not wake up every day a convicted felon.
Martin Green

This sounds like a troll like set up of some sorts. Jaffe has done a great deal to repair his image and is well respected now. Who better to know and report what other authenticators and companies are doing? Hey, didn't Mr. Garo fail the HBO Real Sports test?

Dan

Dan - I certainly don't think he is a troll; just someone voicing his opinion which is fine to do. After all, he did post his name, too.

Gee, I watched TV when 2 of James Spence's "authenticators" looked stupid calling a fake auto real. Everyone still thinks spence is ok. As far as I'm concerned none of these guys give a positive id to any of this stuff. Only an opinion. You know what. I can do that to. It's all bologna. Theres tons of stuff out there that has been called good by all of them that is probably fake. The whole thing is a joke. So who is to say with certainty that one is good and one is bad. NO ONE>

Any other opinions? The item I'm interested in is kind of expensive, and I don't want to waste the cash if this person's opinions are unlikely to be agreed upon w/ either JSA or PSA/DNA.

Dalkiel

Why not post the item here and let us "EXPERTS" render our opinions? Everyone has an opinion and at least these are free.

Martin Green

Shelly Jaffe has certainly done a lot of good for the hobby in the past years.
I agree with most of his autograph opinions.
I do not agree with many of the autograph opinions I have seen of Mr Garo.

I have never seen anything "authenticated" by Garo that wasn't manifestly bad.

His opinion is not respected at all (and rightly so), and thus his authentication will neither protect you, nor help with a future re-sale.

Mr. Akatz:

You're entitled to your opinions but they are not only unfair but very inaccurate.

Martin Green

Here are a couple scans:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...el23/babe1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...el23/babe2.jpg

....

Hi-
The key to me with any authenticator is using actual exemplars of signatures. Martin, most of us on this board trust David A (for early Yankees and other early baseball material), Richard Simon, and Jodi B based on their extensive knowledge (shared frequently on this board) and because of their enormous libraries and collections. If you want us to trust this guy, we need to know a lot more about him. Does he have an extensive collection (or library) of autograph examples? Could you (or he) provide examples of some items he has authenticated? Richard, Jodi, and David have proven their knowledge and expertise with countless posts on Net54. I completely trust their opinions based on the knowledge they have provided. I (and many others on this board) have never heard of Frank, and the ones that have (whom I trust), do not have the highest opinion of him. That is enough for me to make up my mind unless this person can back up his knowledge (like the three I mentioned). This of course is just my opinion.
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

Hi Alan,
You make a good point. The best person to direct those questions to is Mr. Garo himself. I can only tell you of my experiences. He's no rubber stamp for anyone and unlike most authenticators does not buy or sell autographs. He's turned down a lot of autographs from me and fellow collectors and explained in detail why and sent exemplars he got from the Halper Collection and the HOF.

Martin Green

I'd like to add my two cents re the Ruth autograph. It looks good to me but I make no claims to being an expert.

Martin Green

I will refrain from.commenting on the posted example but can say without any doubt that I have seen highly qustionable items authenticated by this person. I would proceed with extreme caution...

Question
 

David,
I have a quick question that this thread reminded me of. Using a Ruth autographed photo as a medium and assuming that the signatures were genuine, is there an appreciable difference in what one could expect to pay btw a signed photo of The Babe in uniform (Yankees) and one of him in street clothes?

Jeff

First off, anyone can come here with a fake name and disrespect people. That was my point when I used the word "troll".

Second, how much is the asking price for this piece, if I may ask? Items authenticated by...well, those whose certs were photographed on the HBO Real Sports episode is usually sold quite cheaply. A bargain!

Lastly, 8x10 signed photos in baseball garb usually fetches $3,500+ and civilian clothing, maybe $2,000-2,500 depends on uniqueness.

Dan

Mr. Bluebirds,

I was just curious as to what convinced you to use Mr. Garo for your authentication needs?

Mr McMurry

I used Mr Garo because I heard good things about him and have never been disappointed. Whether my items have been good or bad, he thoroughly explains why. Have had no trouble selling with his cert.

Despite the negative comments, not one "expert" or even "pseudo expert" has come forward and said the Ruth signature is bad.

This forum has some fine enlightened members who are fair, honorable and knowledgeable. But as with any group there are always a few who have there own agenda and get great pleasure ripping someone's name and reputation based on rumor, innuendo and just plain lies.

I guess it's easier to curse the darkness then light a candle and seek the truth.

The reason I said he was a step above morales is that he got 2 correct on the HBO show which is two more than Morales. I can also tell you that he authenticated a lot of Marion's items. This does not make him a bad guy but I would not use him.

Maybe there's a conspiracy, maybe not. I have never seen anything positive about William Tell Research. If you comb the auction catalogs of major auction houses of Lelands, Legendary(formerly Mastro), Hunts, Robert Edward Auctions, Heritage, SCP, or any others, I can not remember ever seeing an item in there authenticated by William Tell Research. I don't specifically search that out but if he were so universally appreciated and acclaimed, you'd think his work would find it's way into such catalogs. So.....as with all authenticators........caveat emptor.............

I have not a clue about
 

Mr. Garo's ability to authenticate items. However; he has been active in the hobby for three decades and has had many big names at his shows when he promoted shows back in the day. Plus; as GS Gallery; he was a big time dealer.

So at least he has old-time experience.

Regards
Rich

Mr Jaffe:
Who is "Marion"? If you meant Marino, Mr Garo was just getting started full time when Operation Bullpen went down. He had nothing to do with the Marino's or any of their dealer outlets and was never questioned by law enforcement. To say otherwise is a bald face lie. Has he made errors? Absolutely but so has anyone else. What is worse? A few errors or deliberately being involved in a criminal organization ripping off people knowingly selling forgeries like you so greedily did.

As for that pathetic, second rate HBO show you're always touting as the Rosetta Stone of authentication, you were so proud of it you used a phony name and hid your identity. A real test would've been to have everyone check the same items, not different ones. Who got the easy ones? Who got the hard ones? I'm sure it was just a coincidence your bosom buddy and chief defender was the "co-winner".

Mr Boblitt

From having spoken to Mr Garo re the major auction houses, his items have been in all of them only under a different authenticator's name. You'll have to ask the auction houses but I'll toss this out to chew on. Demorats and Republicans fight each other tooth and nail. But when it comes to a third party threatening them, they suddenly unite to fight it. I hardly think the biggest names in authentication or card grading want competition.

"his items have been in all of them only under a different authenticator's name"

Things that make you go hmmmmm..............

Mr Boblitt,
Go hmmmmmm if you want but the sports memorabilia business can be and is as down and dirty as any other business.

Martin Green

"bluebirds" aka Martin.....banned
 

I have received information leading me to believe that this "Martin" person is a shill and is a troll. So, with our new registration system I checked everything out. Fake phone number on registration. "Martin" is now banned. Thanks to the anonymous tip I received.....

ps...I don't count this as a banning of a known person since we have no idea who this is.....

Everyone duck - Leon is swinging liberally :)
http://www.g1-news.com/wp-content/up...ban_hammer.jpg

Good
 

He was giving obscure Buffalo Springfield and Fleetwood Mac songs a bad name.

the original poster in this thread....a shill too?
 

For the record I am also having some doubt about the original poster of this thread. I don't have the 2nd part of his registration, his contact info, and just emailed him to get it. If I don't get a response he too will be banned. I have a sinking feeling that this whole thread was a shill......I hope I am wrong but .......This new board s/w and processes are earning their keep.....

Who didn't think this was all but a lark to promote a little know authenticator who according to his site, had complained about eBay's autograph policies to the government and perhaps some staged banter between friends could help accomplish some goals.

As some of you know, I collect scans and I went through my large (thousands and thousands) library and just randomly picked out a few for you to all enjoy.

1) Gehrig Ball- Coach's Corner Sports Auctions, 8/2006. Sold for $900.
2) Gehrig Ball- Ebay, removed on 3/4/06
3) Ruth Signature- Ebay, removed on 1/7/07 and removed on 3/16/07.

Want more, "Mr. Green"?

Shout out to danc, who called it imediately.

My guess is that Bluebird has a web site somewhere that sells lots of items with William Tell certs.



Also Jodi, dont forget Paul McCartney.;)

You guys crack me up. Everything is a huge conspiracy. Sorry I had the nerve to ask for opinions on this guy. I must have an ulterior motive.

If I may quote Meet the Parents, "....I'd say you have a future in espionage."

Dalkiel
 

Do you really blame anyone for thinking it could be a set up given there was already a shilling troll in this thread? :confused:

edited to add one other thing.....in looking at a previous email exchange I certainly am leaning to the side of you not being a shill to start with....but that doesn't change the fact we have the right to be wary given the above circumstances.

Though I have no clue what a shill troll is, I find it a bit disheartening that everyone's first pessimistic reaction is to go on a witch hunt over some random person asking if anyone was familiar with an autograph authenticator. :confused:

well
 

I sort of made up the word "troll shill" .....but it sounded right.:o A person coming into the forum under the guise of someone else only to set up a person or company for a nefarious reason. It's no witch hunt when there is one in this thread, imo. I do understand your being unhappy but such is internetville. We aren't happy when we have imposters on the forum either. best regards

"I am shocked, shocked to find shilling and trolling here",,, "here are your winnings sir"

--

Yes, he is awesome and his ability to detect is awesome- he has been doing this for a least 15 years or longer. A fine gentlemen to talk to also.;)

;)

The shill who got booted stated "Mr Garo was just getting started full time when Operation Bullpen went down" yet the latest post states Mr Garo has been around for 15 years. Which is it? Guys you should get your story straight before posting here.

Richard.....that looks like a winking smiley face in Dick's post. I'm going to take that to mean that it's a tongue in cheek comment. I thought when I first saw this that something was up. Nice catch Leon...............

I certainly apologize if that remark was tongue in cheek,,,
at least Leon got rid of that shill,, wonder who it was ??

I think what they mean
 

Is that Mr. Garo began authenticating around when OB went down. However; as stated earlier; he has been in the hobby for a long time. His dealing and show promoting background is not the same as autograph authentication.

to be clear
 

I don't think the original poster, who started this thread, is a shill, from the communications we have had. No doubt this bluebirds idiot WAS a shill.....or at least is a bogus person on the board.....well, now banned from the board.

The scans listed with the Ruth signature looks just like one that was sold on eBay last summer/fall. If it is the same one it sold for around $1500 or so. I figured eBay did not boot it because the signature was difficult to verify the authenticity.

As I understand it, this item was purchased on eBay, so it's likely the same.

quick update on bluebirds
 

I had a fairly long phone conversation with "Bluebirds", Martin Green, today. There was a reason there was a faulty number, it had been changed. He has been reinstated, I have his new #, and he feels Garo does a good job. I just moderate and try to keep it real, folks..........

Anyone with an educated opinion on the Ruth auto?

Please forgive me for pasting a portion of my earlier post. (My first) I think it's applicable to this topic as well and didn't feel like retyping it. As I read this thread I found myself agreeing with Bluebird and saw how quickly he was set upon because he disagreed with some. I'm glad he turned out to be legit and was reinstated. Good diligence Leon.


I have little use for 3rd party authenticators who sell their wares and denounce anyone other than their friends items or their own merchandise. One claims a so called double major from an Ivy league university. First item in the resume and is apparently a documented lie. As many of these bogus and laughably inflated resumes seem to be. PSA and JSA are not the end all to beat all either. Another proudly claims to have obtained 100,000 "in person" autographs in 20 years. That's 1 per hour, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for twenty years. (And still 10,000 short) Sorry, I have trouble believing that. These are the same folks that are quick to call other items fake. I even had an "in person" Ali called a forgery. Not that it couldn't be verified authentic (which is fine) but an outright forgery. I believe these same folks are involved with ebay and can bounce items seemingly at will. Although I've never sold an autograph on ebay so I'm not too familiar how that works. They all have their own agenda and in most cases, I think it's driven by greed. Liars and crooks are killing this hobby. (No offense Shelly, but you did plenty of damage prior to seeing the light, AFTER you were caught) And there are plenty of them.

The one thing that has to stop is the Shelly Jaffe bashing. He was a small fish in all of it, he got in trouble, did his time and while others are surely still involved in one way or another in betraying more victims, or even simply being silent, Shelly is no longer associated with his past and has become quite vocal about the current state of this business.

Who better to know how these crooks operate than a one-time member of that familiar world. After all, Frank Abagande whose life was depicted in the movie "Catch Me If You Can" was one of the biggest document and check forgers, and after twelve years of imprisonment, he now owns a successful business that helps detect forgeries. There is no difference to what Frank does and what Shelly is doing. He knows what you guys are doing and that just pisses you off, doesn't it?

The one comment that I found amusing is the "didn't get caught" theory. The hobby is absolutely littered with fraudulent characters who have never been caught, will never get caught, have been caught or are soon to be caught.

If you take a piece of paper and forge Babe Ruth's name on it, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL!, whether you get caught or not...Title 18, statute 1341, Mail Fraud (as well as Wire Fraud)--profitting off false pretences...and along those same lines you have Wire Fraud and counts which involve perpetrating a scheme and using the U.S Mail service to assist in the distribution of fraudulent goods. The tough part for the law is proving that you are a thief, not an idiot...in regards to you "knowingly" selling bogus merchandise. If you are knowingly selling fraudulent goods, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL!

Oh, when the Morales thread was running strong, I was harrassed by this one e-mailer and now he has returned to harrass me. Hmmmm...

Lastly, how many people on this thread come from the wonderful state of PA? :rolleyes: Show of hands please !!!!!!!!

Quite honestly, This last comment is so stupid. Shelly bashing. Boo Hoo. Because the facts are the facts? The truth is the truth. Get a life. a thief is a thief. How about all criminals teach us how to protect ourselves from "bad" criminals that haven't been caught yet. I will bash any thief I want and don't need your permission. Oh yeah, don't forget to read OJ's book "If I did it" I'm sure it's very informative and he was acquitted so we should all accept that and move on. What a joke you are.

Which poster here e-mailed you on a Morales issue Genius? Certainly not me, Was that your idiotic contention? If that's your claim you are a liar. Easy to prove. Ask Leon. I'm from California you jack ball, if that means anything to you. Do you even have a clue what wire fraud is? I do.

Okay, so let me ask this question of the new and reformed, wonderful Shelly. Of all the people you ripped off for thousands of dollars, from all the sincere people you stole from, who trusted you. how much effort did you make to return their money to them? As opposed to how much you kept. How much did you steal and how much did you return to the victims? Easy question and the first step to salvation.

Jeffects,

You stated that you found yourself agreeing with Bluebird, I'm just curious as to what points you agreed with.

on a side note, you would come off better without the name calling,but it's your choice.

Do we really have to get to this level on this thread?
I have known Shelly for a long time. Ok, he made a mistake 10 years ago. He admits it. He confessed it and he was punished for it. Right now though, he is one of the most trusted people in the hobby for Tim Fitzsimmons, FBI agent in charge of Operation Bullpen. And yes, I have talked to Tim on a number of occasions. Shelly is also trusted by ebay and many members of this board.
He has worked harder than anyone I know to try and inform collectors about forgeries and to help in the seemingly hopeless effort to try and expose forgers and forgeries. He has done things to fight the crooks constantly. He does not come here and brag about it, but he is constantly working to improve this mess of a hobby. Can any of the negative posters on this thread say the same thing about themselves. Shelly probably has done more in a week to help than the flamers have done in their lifetimes.
There seems to be a bitterness here from 1 or 2 people that surpasses even the threads about politics (and I have been in the middle of those). I am sure I will get at least one response for this post, let us see if it can be done without juvenile name calling and low class language. If you have a grudge against anyone, posting in a low class manner only makes the poster look the fool.

A question has been asked about me paying back the people who bought autographs from me. The people who bought from me, as I have answered on other threads numerous times, have been paid back in full. Everyone that I knew that bought from me and wanted a refund was paid. Any person that contacted the FBI and showed proof of purchase was refunded in full. I did my best to make sure anyone that had any dealing with me was taken care of. I am proud of what I do now and for those that hate me, well you always will, no matter what I say or do. This will be the last time I will answere this question. It has been ten years and enough is enough.

Wow, jackball...Leon, how about a suspension for name calling?...Jeffects, did I say it was you? Who knows it may be you. This clown (e-mailer) lives through an e-mail address and an e-mail address only and harrases me, that's all I know. Oh well, I ignore them. You are just another person who doesn't see the whole picture and can form an opinion without facing the person. The beauty of the Internet. Shelly has done a tremendous amount to pay back those who he harmed and has done a great deal of good. But nothing anyone says can sway you in the direction of logic, so why bother with you. Just take your cheap shots and name call. That's what you are good at.

The sign of ignorance is insulting someone with a retort. I will give you my two cents here (looking forward to being attacked) but the people in the hobby that are educated know that Shelly Jaffe has done good by them and that's all that should matter. You never see educated, well respected people call another "jackball" and if you had read the O.J book, he did not admit to the crimes, nor did he do anytime, nor did he better himself in anyway once he was released, so what the hell was that exactly? Nobody takes people like you seriously on a board like this that is chock-full of educated individuals who know how to debate points and do so as adults.

Larry

He has been warned and given an infraction. That was totally uncalled for.

What is with you people? Larry, you are beyond ignorant. I'm sure most sane people can clearly see that. This "jackball" implied that we had some correspondence related to Morales. He implied that he knew me and that I lived in Pa. do you deny that? It's obvious, but grasp on whatever you want. He also implied that we had exchanged e-mails about Morales. That's an absolute lie. He implied that he knows me and I'm from PA. Another lie. Is this your friend, a liar? Good for you loser. This person is a liar and I look forward to all of you people with no scruples defending him.

Jeffects, I am going to assume you didn't get my note with the warning since we both posted at the same time so I'm telling you right now to stop with the name calling or your stay here is going to be very short.

Great. This liar can imply that I am a morles supporter. And he can lie about e-mails that never existed. He can act as though he knows me and I live in PA. He can damage any credibility that I may garner on this web-site and you feel compelled to warn me, punish me? Ha Ha Dan. Youn are very amusing. And...Whatever you are.

You must have a guilty conscience because nowhere in his post did he say or imply that it was you that was harassing him. Either way you still don't get to call people "Jackballs" on this forum.

I've read several of these posts and "jackball" is very tame. But maybe you folks have another agenda beyond honest disagreement. My response was to obvious lies. If that's okay with you Dan, I don't want to associate with this web-site anyway. Delete this, maybe some of your members agree with me.

As I read these comments you guys are really pathetic. Have fun in your circle jerk. You for the most part disgust me. Shelly Jaffe is a great guy...A liar and a thief. I know I'm off this site because honesty is too much for you folks. Your buddy is a criminal. He is a crook. He stole from people. And you are all so mad that I called a proven liar a jackball. (his post, whatwever his name is) So terrible. You folks are the problem, not the solution. I had so much fun on this site for a week, seeing your disgusting hypocrisy. So ban me. I can live with myself "jackballs". Boo hoo. Whining punks. Maybe you Dan.

I'm not deleting anything. I also have no agenda here....I don't have a clue who this Frank Garo is and have given no opinion on him. If you feel you are being singled out and picked on there's probably nothing I say that can change your mind. Leave if you want, I don't care, but if you stay you need to stop with the name-calling. It's that simple.

Thanks.

Huh?

Dan, I apologize because I thought you would have bounced me "post haste" I have to hand it to you, although I'm surprised, I have to thank you for fairness when I thought it was non-existant. I was wrong. I don'y know who Garo is either. No knowledge of him. Thanks for being fair.

Jeff Clark

Thanks Jeff, apology accepted. I still don't think the other poster was referring to you, but I see how you could have interpreted it that way. You can pretty much say what you want here if you put your name on your post, but try not to take it on a personal level and everything is fine.

Thanks.

Thanks Dan,

I would like to be a part of this site, and appreciate the responsibility equated with that, Also the honesty that you allow. I've seen it first hand and appreciate it. But then again we could always ask that other poster who he was referring to. I can move on, no problem. But if he blatantly lied, do you have a problem with that?

I remember a long time ago seeing William Tell Research ads in Tuff Stuff and I believe Beckett also. Bottom line is when people fork out $1,000's they want the COA to be from a well known reliable authenticator. Ones besides PSA/DNA, JSA, that come to mind are Kevin Keating, Albersheims, Mark Jordan....etc...

Honestly Jeff I think that is beyond my role as a moderator to find out if someone is lying or telling the truth. I only got involved over complaints of name calling.

8 pages and no opinion on the Ruth.... :(

Ha Ha, You're right, This thread got hijacked by a bunch of nonsense. I think some said it looks good to them. I looked at Garo's site after seeing the original posts and he looks reliable. No hidden agenda. I would certainly trust someone more that isn't buying and selling autographs. Like the 99% of these so called experts. From what I see here, If they're not selling it (Or one of their friends) It's fake. I personally think it looks good but then again, I don't have a long list of fake credentials and a web site touting my match book secret service degree in forensics. I would trust Garo more than the agenda driven opinion of most folks here. Another warning Dan?

Jeffects,

You just brought up an interesting line of thinking with the, "not trusting those who buy / sell and authenticate". There was an article online years back written by Seth Boyd (RIP) Who took the opposite approach,and explained it quite well. I'll water it down to his basic point which is that a dealer/authenticator has to sell legit material or he'll go out of business, an authenticator only person has to issue COA's of approval,or he'll go out of business.

If anyone remembers this article and can provide a link,please do. I've got a print out I'll try to locate and scan.

Maybe not from Dan. But I'll give you one.

If you trust Garo, and buy his certed pieces, you're gonna have a lot of worthless crap on your hands.

Are any of you guys who replied to this thread authenticators? If not , how do you personally know if a sig. is real or not unless you got it in person. You don't!!!!!!. How do you pick your authenticator? Your friend or buddy, bigestamount of advertising, most items by them in an auction? How do you know if they are good or not. It's very possible thet their all phonies. To you know it alls, you know nothing, the same as the authenticators.

Thanks for the heads-up, Frank.

I'll keep it in mind the next time I buy or sell an autograph.

Hi J.Mcmurry. I don't disagree with you and everything I bought was obviously from a seller who "Authenticated" it. I of course trusted their opinion enough to purchase from them. Actually I bought most of my historical stuff from a select few. Dealers that had been around quite a while and I usually bought low end stuff and they carried high end stuff and knew they wouldn't risk a multi-million dollar business to sell $400.00 items. So I agree with your point. I have a problem with some dealers but primarily my issue is with authenticators who ridiculously inflate their credentials or out right lie and then are quick to besmirch or judge other dealers who have solid 30 year reputations. I am neither a dealer or authenticator. I had never heard of Garo until this thread.

Jeff
 

I might add that Jeff seems like a really nice guy, and my sr. by a few years, on the phone. Very pleasant call......

For the record- I do call some folks just to make sure we keep it real.....and I realize a roach can still crawl in under the door but it's not as easy as it used to be...happy collecting....