Cards that CAN and CANNOT be soaked?!
 

It'd be nice to compile a list of sorts of different types of vintage cards that CAN...and those that CANNOT be successfully soaked.

Can anyone add to such a list?

I have successfully soaked T215-1, e122, t206.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated?!

I have successfully soaked E92 and E95

I had good luck soaking a C46.

T205
 

Attachment 101802Just got done soaking this one.

T210s soak very well.

Both 1914 and 1915 CJs soak - no problems

I've soaked the following successfully (distilled water, never more than a couple hours):

-All Topps issues 1952-1970 (including Venezuelan issues)
-1933/1934 Goudey
-T206
-T205
-1934-36 Diamond Stars
-1949 Leaf

The only issue I've ever had with soaking occurred with a 1938 Heads Up Goudey. Some staining appeared on the car that was absent before. Could have just been a one time thing though...

T206s for me. I haven't soaked many, but when I have, I ended up with good results. And I soak them for a couple of days, changing the water every few hours (hot, filtered water).

Will soaking a 1914 help w/the caramel stains? I've always been nervous since they are so thin, fragile, and sometimes brittle.

Great thread. Anyone ever try obaks or T3s?

I just soaked a '34 Goudey. Came out nicely.

I soaked an Old Judge and came out without problem, but only one

No it doesn't help. Ive noticed that they can be lightened by additional means involving cotton balls and q-tips but it also removes ink and lightens the card. The biggest danger when soaking the 1914s is creasing the wet card in transport, have yours ducks in a row and don't freak out when its a 4-figure HOFer that's in Ex condition but glued to a scrapbook...he'll look sweet when its done.

Exhibits soak fine but be careful with the Red, Yellow and Pink tints as they can bleed off and/or onto other areas of the card.

E93's soak ok but I did have a slight bleed on a red area on one card (check his belt and glove).

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...storious40.jpg

thanks for the info scott. now i know why i sometimes see e93s with those pink hues. will just assume they've been soaked going forward

I have to echo what everyone said and say that soaking is much scarier than it is difficult. It can really enhance the look of a dirty card and remove the paper stuck to the back.

Do you think this card would have graded lower before a soak? What do you think it would have graded?

Its the glue not the card my friend
 

Pre 1943 glue was water saluable(spelling?) and if u want to remove a pencil mark use a art eraser it doesn't damage the paper...u can buy at any art supply store.

soluble, I think

Do m101-2 sporting news supplements soak to remove cardboard backing?

Add

N28 A&G
N284 Buchner Gold Coin

To the mix........

successfully soaked several Zeenuts to remove paper on back

The card had something stuck on the back so the soaking worked great as it came off with no residue left, I think they had just used a flour and water based paste. The down side was the bleed on the front, the front was better prior to the soak.

Two to not soak
 

I would NEVER soak an E94 and probably not an E98.
I have had E94s sent to me through the years in rigid holders that literally exploded when I tried to remove them from the holders. Not just from one seller either. They have a tendency to have large color "flecks" come off the cards. I don't know why but that is one of the reason every E94 and E98 I own is in a slab.

Koester bread cards soak well

Awesome thread idea Pete! I have a few I may soak so thanks for your opinions!

I know 33/34 goudeys have been mentioned...also...34 WWG's can be soaked!:D

I'm wondering about the later 30's goudey premiums?! Has anyone tried to soak these super thin pieces?

I'm surprised at all the issues that soak well - is anyone compiling a table/list?

T205's were a problem for me - they soaked well, but if you leave them soaking very long, then use you finger to loosen excess glue or paper, lettering can come off quite easily.

National Copper Plates soak great; in fact, the wrinkles come out. This was a very pleasant surprise.

Ditto zeenuts especially the 1911's.

Jim, solubility varies - even with glue as old as what was used in the 1800's. I've conducted experiments soaking albumens, and because of the various glues used, had varying results.

It's the same for lithographs - when we talk about whether or not a card is 'shakable', we are assuming that the glue is going to be 'friendly'.

Does anybody know if M101-4 cards are soakable? I have 3 with black paper stuck to the back.
Not baseball, but I've soaked T68 and T218 cards successfully.

So far...late 30's goudey premiums are soaking successfully...although they are quite thin and extreme care needs to be exercised to avoid tearing them!

Here a f/u - its a 1915, but caramel stains come out equally from both years. The stains that did lighten up significantly I believe were dirt or something else, not caramel stains. The biggest concern is creasing the card when handling it wet but there are ways to safe guard that as well.

Okay, am I the only long-time collector who hasn't yet soaked a card??

I have a really beat up 1973 Venezuelan Sticker album (missing cover, back, and it looks like a mouse had a field day on the edges), but the stickers look pretty nice.

Would this be soakable?

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...In%20Album.jpg

Obviously, I'm building on the thread about the Caramelo Deportivo album....

soaking
 

Had no problem soaking a Schutter-Johnson. I was worried about the red being vulnerable so only soaked until I could gently rub album glue off.

Derek, soaking 101 is finding the most beat up common from the album of cards and trying a soak on it prior to doing anything with the cards of significant value. Doing a test soak should help you decide if it is possible to soak your Jim Rice out of there without destroying the value of the overall piece.

Thanks Rhett - that was going to be the plan but I've never soaked before. I hope it works!

I'll give it a try in a few weeks.

Never soak a Fatima T222
 

One issue you never want to soak is the Fatima T222. I have seen examples which have been soaked, and because they are really photographs the "photograph gloss" is dissolved by the soaking in water.


Patrick

Gentlemen (and the few ladies on this board),

Out of curiosity, why is soaking a card acceptable while other alterations are, according to some members of Net54, verboten?

I considered soaking a card...once. After realizing what it would likely do to a T206 with a back stamp and (let's call it) a sticker, I quickly backed off.

Upon further reflection, I am curious as to why this particular form of, "card doctoring" is OK with some who would cry, "foul" under other circumstances. In the grand scheme of things, it seems about the same as taking an eraser to a pencil mark or ironing out the crease in a silk.

Just curious...although I imagine a Net54 beat-down is coming my way for suggesting that soaking a card is unethical.

Best regards,

Eric

No idea why but it is a double standard. Personally, I don't have a problem with altered cards as long as they are sold as such.

I soaked two T3 before

Alex,

I have no problem with people selling, when properly advertised, altered cards, and agree with you regarding them being sold as such. As a matter of fact, I purchased a trimmed T206 earlier today and was quite grateful for the seller following through on the transaction.

In some cases, the restoration makes the particular issue look remarkably better. What I take issue with is the nonchalant soaking of cards by a great many people who do not disclose this when selling the card.

I may be wrong here...however...do not remember many auctions that state, "hey, this used to have XXX on it, but I soaked the card and now it's gone."

Just my two cents...and please know that I am not attacking you, personally.

Best,

Eric

[QUOTE=Eric72;1246834]Gentlemen (and the few ladies on this board),

Out of curiosity, why is soaking a card acceptable while other alterations are, according to some members of Net54, verboten?


I don't make the double standards, I just abide by them.

Why? To me, it just seems like card doctoring.

Generally speaking soaking a card removes things that aren't meant to be there and weren't there when the card was made. Most collectors don't have a problem because it isn't altering the original composition of the card (though I guess that could be argued). Also, erasing an errant mark isn't as taboo as it might should be. Same philosophy though.

As someone said, I don't make the double standards, I just go by them (love that saying)....

If I am going to sell a card, I will not soak it, if Im going to keep it, what the hell its my card.
in most cases it drastically improves the cards aesthetics, but to each his own
Sebastian

Leon,

I respectfully disagree with your casual stance regarding taking a card for a soak. In my humble opinion, this practice is as unethical as trimming. Just my two cents.

Best,

Eric

No offense taken. I think we have had this conversation before on the board and people seem to have strong opinions on both sides.

Derek,

Unfortunately, the Venezuelan albums from the 70s are some of the most unsoakable that exist. Almost always have the worst glue possible that NEVER comes off. You might as well just tear them out of the album if you want them out. I'm not saying it's impossible or can't happen, I've just never had success. And I've tried. Over and over. Might be worth trying a sample page just to see. Maybe you'll get lucky. Don't even think about doing the page with Rice until you've had success with other pages, though. The good news is they're often only glued on the very top edge.

-Ryan

Good luck trying to determine which cards you have that have been soaked. The reason that it is acceptable is that it alters nothing from the card itself (obviously trimming does this and is thusly not accepted). Many really high grade cards that exist in this hobby likely are the result of a good soaking, the cards being in an album for so long is what preserved the corners from being damaged from years or normal wear. It Is fine to take the hard-line stance but at the end of the day it is 100% imperceptible if done correctly and nothing on the card is destroyed or altered, not sure I get why this would be in any way the same as trimming a card.


FYI, never try to soak Clement Brothers Bread cards as the ink on front is water soluble. Colgan's Chips also aren't good "soakers" as the back ink tends to rub off.

Ryan - thanks for the note.

yes, the glue is only on the top upper edge. I could almost tear one of the stickers off, but they are so fragile I was worried I might tear through the sticker. I thought maybe a soak would do the trick, although I've never tried it. I'll give it a try on one of the other sheets. Trust me, I'll be practicing a lot (if there looks to be even a remote chance of success) before attempting to free Mr. Rice from his sheet.

To address other concerns on here, I used to be of the same mind regarding soaking, especially when used to enhance the appearance of a card (dirt removal)...in this case, I'm trying to remove a card from an album. I think they are two different animals. That said, where do you draw the line?

I was surprised to see so many members and long-time collectors using the "soak" method. But I still think it is far different from altering a card (like trimming or coloring the chipped paint on a t205).

I can only speak for myself. I have no problem with soaking as long as it is to remove dirt/stains/musty smell and not ink.

I recently soaked a few 60's Batman, spook stories, and monster laffs that really smelled bad. The soaking removed some dirt and lessened the wrinkles a little. The big benefit for me was it got rid of the horrible musty smell.

"The reason that it is acceptable is that it alters nothing from the card itself."
Incorrect, soaking changes the ph of the card. Search "Pyrolysis" in 54's search feature to find why soaking a card is detrimental.:)Dave.

Has anybody ever soaked an E-75?

With pyrolysis you are making the assumption that one is using HOT water or steam to do the deed, that is not necessary.

+1 to this, Alex. I'm too scared to soak any of my cards. I know a bunch of you guys have done so successfully, but with my luck, I'd be the rare exception, and destroy a piece of history. And even if it was only some $50 card, I'd want to punch myself in the face a few times.

I thought the same thing but luckily it turned out well. My wife doesn't care much about my collection but she loves it when I have a card that gets to soak. We both think it is pretty neat to see the water work it's magic.

I have soaked thousands of cards, including examples from virtually every major tobacco and caramel set. Most of the bad candidates for soaking have already been mentioned...E94, E98, colored Exhibits, Colgan's. I'd generally also recommend against soaking Old Judges, Fatimas or other similar glossy photographic cards as they can stain and warp in ways that can't be undone.

I do not in any way look at it as an alteration, simply because it is not affecting the card any more than blowing a piece of dust off of it would be. True alterations like trimming, recoloring, rebacking, etc all clearly change the composition of the card by adding, removing, or changing some aspect of the card's original state. Soaking does not do any of these things.

To answer an above comment, soaking in distilled water will not in any way affect the ph of the card and "pyrolysis" will not occur unless you are soaking your cards in a thermal vent at the bottom of the ocean or something. In fact, the temperature of paper would need to get to around 200 degrees before that process would begin to occur as it is basically the first stage of fire oxidation.

What Marc said
 

I agree 100% :D

Hey there Eric ,

I Respect your opinion & belief in every way!

Years ago I have had a many healthy debate/discussions about this ( Off ) topic.
I tend to be a realist and will most often refer to the Common Logic of the issue.
Eric, I do want you to know that there was a time that I thought somewhat as you do now. I didn’t believe that it was unethical, just Somehow Not Right.

Thus, my conclusion has brought me to this answer:

1st… We are Care Takers of an area of America’s most esteemed Past Time. I speaking of those who truly care for these pieces of history.
2nd …There is a difference between “Alteration” and “Restoration”. Altering (ie, Trimming…etc) a Card to get it passed a Part time/Rookie TPG’er for a Higher Grade is definitely Unethical. That’s Logical! Removing a substance that would potentially harm a Card over the Years, Pencil lead, Caramel (Which is basically Sugar, and Sugar deteriorates the hardest of Substances), glue, rust, etc… would be best for the Card, Right?
To my understanding, most Art Relics go thru some sort of periodic Restoration process, on “as needed” basis. Are you in the same frame of mind towards this process, deeming it Unethical?
Wouldn’t you want to protect and preserve these pieces for the future generations to come?

Just to add: Some of us might even pay for someone’s service in this area. I know of a gentleman in Florida who actually performs these tasks for a living.
Rhett mentioned the “101 of Soaking”, some of us might not be willing to even attempt the process.

Eric, if you could explain why soaking a Card would be “Unethical as Trimming”, I would truly listen!
Always willing to learn, maybe I missed something?

In ending, I Hope that the slight off topic, to a Very Good Topic thread, is cheerfully tolerated ; -)

As Always…

No. Heat is just the total amount of kinetic energy in "normal" matter.
Anything above (theoretical) absolute zero is "heat".

Regarding Old Judges, I haven't ever soaked these, but since they are albumens, and I HAVED soaked albumens , they theoretically should soak okay. But I would never do it, mainly because the backing is thicker and would curl - then you've got to deal drying it, which takes exponentially more time as the thickness of the backing increases - I know this from soaking mounted albumen cabinets. In the end, you are likely to have a slightly more attractive, curled card - I would leave those to professionals if you really have to get it done.

Also, not sure if I mentioned it elsewhere, but 'National Copper Plate' premiums soak very easily. I had a disaster of one that couldn't be hurt by soaking, and I was surprised to see how easy it was.

Holy shit absolute zero. This convo is getting real.

Nice analysis. I understand Eric's position, as I feel the same way about albumen cards such as Old Judges. But I don't think the word 'unethical' should even be in this conversation. Many of us who feel soaking is okay, are not soaking because of a lack of ethics. And if you decided that it was okay to soak mounted albumen photos, I wouldn't consider you unethical, and I wouldn't feel like you should tell me the photo was soaked (although it would be nice). I just wouldn't do it myself.

If a buyer asked me if a card I was selling them had been soaked, and I knew the answer, I would certainly tell them. I guess the real question becomes: "If you were required to describe a card you were selling, as 'soaked', would you continue to soak cards?"

As far as alterations go, I do feel that the seller has to disclose the fact, or they are being unethical.

You better start freezing your cards then David to get them to absolute zero, you wouldn't want their pH to change on you if they got above that!


David, I get what you are saying (I am a dentist and took more science classes in college than I wish to remember) but you are really splitting hairs here and it is hard to take what you say seriously, that is if you are actually being serious. It's hard to tell since you seem to be one of those guys that frequently gets in arguments with others on this board.

Not just freezing them. We are talking Demolition Man style cryogenic freezing.

absolute zero is just a theoretical point, like a singularity, it doesn't exist.

I don't want to argue with anyone. Soaking a card may improve its appearance but it will certainly change the ph level of the matter and increase its rate of degradation. That's why professional consevators add chemicals to their soaking solutions to stabilize the material, to prevent further and more rapid decay.
But why discuss this subject, it isn't about what you believe, it is about fact. Ask a professional if pencil/pen/marks can be erased without damaging the fibers. Ask if soaking a card is detrimental in the long run, (it is) Many times these marks can be removed without change to the naked eye. Under the proper the magnification and light, there will always be a trace.

Optimal ph
 

One could argue that if changing the ph is one direction is harmful, then changing the ph is the other direction would be beneficial:). I foresee an investment opportunity in litmus paper as collector's strive to optimize the ph of their collections:cool:. I have instructed my broker to look into:

Guangzhou Norm Scientific Instrument Co., Ltd
Shenzhen Yahee High Technologies Corp. Limited &
Hangzhou Liandong Import & Export Co., Ltd.

These are the big 3 litmus paper producers. Whatever happened to good old American Litmus?:eek::eek:

I also think TPGs should measure ph and put it on the flip prior to encapsulation.;)

...in a nitrogen charged chamber, I presume.:)

Is that like 'Splendid Splintered head' freezing?!?

No. It's much more entertaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_Man_(film)

Has anyone soaked Bowmans?

I have a '51 Bowman Otto Graham this is beautiful except has some masking tape on the back.

not sure if masking tape's adhesive is water soluble...but I'd guess the card can take it.

Strangely ...
 

Can't believe it worked ... but you can add Butterfingers to the list of cards that can be soaked. Just be very careful peeling the backing paper/cardboard off as the butterfingers can rip easily.

Cheers,
Patrick

What about E95s?

id presume e95's would soak just fine.

The Black Swamp Find! MY gosh, could you imagine being submerged in a black swamp for a century, and coming out like THAT!:cool: I'm thinking of taking a dip in there myself.;)

I read this thread and didn't see anyone mention T207. I have a few T207's with that have a couple spots of glue on the back. The glossy front concerns me. Anyone ever soak a T207?

I am not even sure I would soak them because I am on the fence about whether it is ethical. The long-term affect it will have on cards concerns me. I guess I am leaning towards it being ethical because in some cases, like removing stains, it may preserve the card.

Would soaking help this card or pointless??
 

Would soaking this card get rid of the splotches?? Not sure what it is, ink? dirt??

Thanks