Should Bud Selig Overturn Jim Joyce's Call?
 

There is a groundswell opinion that Bud Selig should make the unprecedented move and award Armando Galarraga a perfect game. What do you think?

This was supposed to be a poll, and I messed it up. Oh well, you can still offer an opinion.

i agree.

I vote for Selig to set a precedent by overturning Joyce's bad call and giving Galarraga his perfect game. Nobody will be hurt by it. Future situations can be evaluated as they come up.

Me Too
 

I Agree

While reversing the call would set a dangerous precedent under normal circumstances, it wouldn't matter if baseball allowed instant replay to settle disputed calls. The commissioner could solve two problems at once by reversing the call and enacting instant replay at the same time. A few hardliners would grumble, but I believe the vast majority of fans would quickly accept it, just like they do in football. Plus, they already allow instant reply on home run calls ...

I agree as well, its the right thing to do

No, bad call but what makes it any different then if it was made in the 3rd inning and not the possible last batter of the game?

Reverse the call!

He needs to reverse it, the call was inarguably suckish. But I wouldnt bet on him reversing it. The hit king is still on the outside looking in.

No. The bad call stands. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our progeny, we don't want a Commissioner tampering with the calls between the foul lines.


What should have happened is one of the other 3 umpires moves out in front of the plate, between the mound and the plate, and stares at the remaining 2, they'll get the idea and approach. They then look over at Joyce and wait for him to decide to approach. They can't help him unless he asks for help on the call, but they could have huddled there waiting for him to come over, and eventually he'd realize he should ask the crew chief for help on the call. I think we'll see the results of a meeting with umpires discussing this process.

Golly... if the Commissioner can 'fix' calls, I can think of a few that could do with 'fixing'. Where would it end? The problem here, I think, is that emotion and desire to reach a certain outcome (a perfect game) has pushed reason to one side. And that hit king walked by a sign every day as player, coach, and manager... the sign proscribed gambling. He should get in the hall any of the 363 days it's open, after he's bought an admission ticket.

Frank- I'm not suggesting that all bad calls should be subject to review. If an ump misses a call with two outs in the 5th inning of a 7-2 game, it should not be reversed. But there are exceptions to any rule, and can any call be more egregious than the one made last night? If ever there was a need to set a precedent, that was it.

Only if he reviews all of the other calls in the game including called strikes. Maybe the perfect game shouldn't even have lasted through 26 outs, or a called strike that wasn't gave the pitcher a favorable count to work with.


Would this even be a topic for discussion if it had occurred in the 2nd or 3rd inning?

It is a topic because of a desired outcome.


And that, to me, should not be a factor in the decision. "Because if I reverse and correct this call the pitcher can have a perfect game, that's why I'm changing it." No, can't accept that that is right.

Who knows what might happen if ARod hits what might have been an 800th home run, but he stepped out of the batter's box and is ruled out... video shows he was out, but the lime had long ago been rubbed away so ARod couldn't see that he was out... and after all it would be his 800th home run... Or maybe Jeter is about to hit in that 57th consecutive game... No, Barry, we shouldn't look at a desired outcome and let that affect our decision-making.

You don't reverse it. That opens up a can of worms that I don't think anyone wants to open with the "human element" of baseball.

Also, if the commissioner were to step in and rule that an out because of a perfect game, how tarnished is that effort now? The best part of a perfect game, no-hitter, walk off HR is the immediate celebration of the team, player etc. Now, the next day you are going to rule it an out? Where's the celebration? There isn't one.......kind of a lost moment that you can never get back.

Didn't George Brett hit a home run at Yankee Stadium that was negated because of too much pine tar on his bat? And then didn't that call get reversed shortly thereafter when common sense prevailed, and the last inning was ultimately replayed? Like it or not, the commissioner's office recognized that an exceptional situation occurred.

Keep in mind if the outcome of last night's game were reversed (and I know it won't be), it would not change who won and lost. The only negative would be Donald losing an infield hit. Yes, it would open a can of worms. I say go get the can opener.

Barry
 

I added a poll for you. For the record I don't think he should....

Thanks for opening the poll. I too understand it won't be overturned...I'm just trying to present an argument for why it could or should.

No way. Crappy calls are part of the game. What we need is instant replay review.

Besides, there'll be another perfecto next week. :)

The difference is that it's THE LAST BATTER OF THE GAME. Meaning that nothing can change if that call is corrected. In the third inning every play has an effect on every other play for the rest of the game.

The better question is, if he proceeds to lose the game after this call is made with another hit and then a bomb to tie it does Bud change anything? Of course not.

I think it's a huge shame, and blame lies with Joyce and the crew chief Darryl Cousins for not getting the call right at the time. Bud can't and shouldn't do anything.

Absolutely not.

if
 

IF it was going to be overturned it should/would have needed to be done before the next pitch. That is my thought on it. Then I could have been ok with it...but not afterwards.

Barry- I didn't know what your verbiage would have been on the poll so just made it easy and obvious.

I think Frank makes a good point. I was watching the game, and was waiting for any of the other umps to run over and at least say something to Joyce. Maybe it's time for instant replay to be used

You want instant replay for routine judgement calls? Where would it end?

When the commissioner voids Bonds/McGwire/Sosa etc. HR records, then I'll listen to his reasoning for reversing this call.

If instant replay was enacted in baseball, there would no doubt be limits to how often a call could be reviewed, just like in football. If a manager knew he could call for a review just once a game, he wouldn't blow that opportunity on a petty call ...

Leon- the poll is fine as worded.

I too was a little surprised that the umps didn't huddle after the play and have a conference. Is it possible the home plate umpire saw the play well enough to reverse it? Probably not, but that was the moment to discuss it.

And Adam is probably right- seems like we'll just have another perfect game in a week or so.

No.

But, Selig's appointment should be reversed.

It's a real mess, it was a perfect game except in the record books but will go down as a historic game much more talked about than had he gotten the correct call. What I don't understand is how a home run can be reviewed but a routine play like this cannot, doesn't make sense. Also have to really question where Joyce had his head was he not even aware that a perfect game was on the line ? I don't think this can be overturned and won't be but get rid of the home run reviews wtf.

I voted "no". As sickened and disgusted as I was, it is part of the game and it should stand.

Absolutely not.

A hundred years from now, they'll be talking about this game. This will be the second most famous perfect game in the history of baseball. Everybody knows it, including the young man who pitched it and the umpire who blew the call.

Absolutely everything about the way this has transpired has been wonderful. The class of Jim Joyce - a respected umpire - for immediately owning up to his mistake, not placing blame or making excuses, and personally apologizing. The grace and dignity of Armando Galarraga, for accepting the apology and conducting his postgame interviews with such poise, never with a negative word to say.

This is baseball, and this is life. People make mistakes that sometimes hurt, and admitting wrongdoing (and accepting apologies) is what we want people to do.

This is how we WANT our athletes to behave. They almost never behave the way we want them to. Why ruin all that by overturning a call?

-Al

Leave things as they are. Armando should be remembered for being a class act and someone that should be looked up to by our kids. He will be remembered more if it is not changed then if it is changed. I think this has been handled with great class by all. Baseball is a game by humans lets keep it that way.

Well put.

no
 

Don't like the call but that's just the way baseball is played and imo the less replay used in all sports the better.

Does this mean the Cardinals won the 1985 World Series?

-Ryan

No way the call should be reversed. Home plate umps blow at least 10% of ball and strike calls every game (I don't have the exact numbers, but when you watch any game on TV you can clearly see all the miscalls). These ball and strike miscalls, which are routine, make more of a difference than calls in the field on whether any game is perfect or a close miss. Galarraga was no more perfect than many other pitchers before him who were "robbed" by ball and strike miscalls that led to a walk or a basehit.

All good points...and I too was impressed by Galarraga's grace. But I still feel awful for what he lost. Haddix lost his perfect game but that was from a play on the field. There was an error, followed by a hit. This one is much worse. It will be talked about forever, but still...

I hate to say it, but I voted YES.

I consider myself to be a purist of the game, and would hate to see intsant reply go into effect, but I think this is one of the very small number of times in history that this would be a good decision. It would be fun to do some history digging and see if any of the countless appeals to the main office back in the day, ever overturned an on field decision.

I would also like to say what a good job the kid did taking it in stride. It would be hard not to blow a gasket, knowing that is your one chance at the history books.

Bob

Overturn?
 

I voted NO......we don't need instant replay in baseball. Although it was a terrible call it was a judgement call and it happened fast. Jim Joyce made the call, he didn't hesitate. He felt he was safe and he stuck with it. If I was a MLB umpire I wouldn't want replays. I would feel like I really wasn't needed out there. Just look at a replay and make every call. Yes, I'm a purist, Love this game and I'm old fashion. This game has been around for 150 years....lets not change it.

Although I stated that I would have been ejected had it been me, my hats off to Galarraga, he didn't say a word to Joyce after the call, just a "I can't believe you called him safe" look. I was actually hoping Cabrera would get face to face with him at first while they were "jawing" at each other. Thought he was....why not? Last inning....one out to go.....cause a scene:D

And, I also tip my hat to Jim Joyce for going to clubhouse after he reviewed the call and realizing he missed it to apologize to Galarraga for the missed call. Took a man to do that and to admit he cost him his perfect game.........

Life goes on....its a game...

It's Crazy Not To Reverse It
 

As has already been pointed out, there is precedent for doing just that - the George Brett Pine Tar incident.

When almost everyone else in the world thinks the call should be overturned, not overturning it will just make those people feel it is one more example of the commissioner sitting on his hands rather than taking an action, which he has the power to do, that could right a wrong.

Conversely, if he does reverse the call and award the perfect game, I think it will have a very beneficial effect. It's a "feel good" move that should not be ignored.

First of all, Pine Tar incident was overturned because it was a "rules interpretation" and those are the only rulings that can be overturned, not a judgement call on a player out or safe at a base (that happens about 35 times per game).

Second, the commissioner is not sitting on his hands, he doesn't have the power to overturn a judgement call on the field.

Unfortunately this will probably lead to instant replay. Combined with all the loud music, stupid scoreboard games etc., I may just stop going to the games. A ballgame used to be a place to get away from distractions and excessive technology, now it is just another source.

I'd trade a perfectly umpired game for the simple game of baseball as it was meant to be played with all its errors (umpires and otherwise).

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but if the call was the other way, he was called out when he was safe, would the perfect game be taken away?

In either case I don't think it should be reversed.

I consider myself am a purist (an NL fan) but I am also all about getting calls right.

If this were the NBA, the NFL or the NHL, instant replay would have been used and the call would have been made right.

Bud Selig has been against instant replay but he CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. He can not be against instant replay while also not having to be held responsible for standing up and changing an incorrect call.

David

If he doesn't have the power by some document, I don't think anyone would argue if he took the common-sense, good-sportsmanship step. This is a game. Games are supposed to make you feel good. A lot of people feel angry about that game. He should make them feel good.

As much as the Commissioner's Office might have wanted to do something, as far as steroids go, it was the Players Union who didn't want to take a stand against steroids and other PED's.

There had been a ruling by fay Vincent that said steroids and PED's were illegal since 1993 but the Players Union saw their guys makingtoo much money to change anything. It took Congress getting into the act to amke them change their tune.

As far as Pete Rose goes, he knew what he was doing was wrong and is paying the price for it. It hurts me to say this because I have been a Reds fan since 1975 but he is getting what he deserves.

Finally, ALL Major League sports tell kids to "do the right thing". Well, Bud Selig has a chance to "do the right thing" but will he?

If he would have allowed greater use of instant replay he would NOT be in this spot now. But since he didn't, he NOW has to grow a pair and "do the right thing".

David

It's very odd that instant replay can be used to overturn a home run call but nothing else. What is the common sense behind that? Why couldn't a manager have say one challenge a game, like they do in the NFL? Or why couldn't there be one umpire in a booth somewhere watching instant replay? If there were no controversial calls then the game would proceed as it always does (very slowly indeed). But if there was an obvious mistake he would have the power to fix it. Not necessarily every ball and strike, but a significant play within certain parameters. Something along those lines couldn't really hurt the game.

So where do you draw the line....if this wasn't going to be a perfect game, but rather a 1 or 2 hitter, do you review it?

If it was going to be a no-hitter, but not a perfect game, do you review it?

If it was just a regular game do you review it?

If a pitcher has a perfect game going in the sixth, do you start reviewing any and all close calls?

Where does it stop? Are you saying only in this rare instance of a possible perfect game being broken up with 2 outs in the ninth? Is that the only time you review it?

The NFL has instituted a rule that allows certain plays to be reviewed, and most fans of the game feel it has worked. Baseball could do the same thing, although a good deal of thought would have to be put into how to do it.

Not every blown call is the same. Umps probably miss at least 10-20 balls and strikes calls per game. It would be inefficient to review every pitch that was two inches off the plate and called a strike.

But what if last night Galarraga had a 3-2 count on the last hitter, threw the next pitch right down the center of the plate, and it was called ball four. Can we agree that there are some situations that are more critical than others, and deserve closer scrutiny?

Sure, umpires miss safe and out calls every day. There are hundreds of them during the course of the season. But would anybody really say that what Joyce did last night was just your garden variety missed call? Most missed calls are forgotten five minutes later; the one last night will be remembered for a generation.

I do think some plays are more crucial than others that appear to be similar. Couldn't there be some way to assess this and improve the game?

I'm using a simple premise here: it's always better to get the call right than to get it wrong. If the NFL found a way to cut down on errors by reviewing key plays, why can't baseball?

Of course he does. The Commissioner has the ultimate power to do anything he deems to be "in the best interest of Major League Baseball."

And you think "best interest" involves overturning a routine judgement call/play?

To me this is very interesting. If he was called out on the last play and replay showed he should be safe, there would not even be a discussion of overturing the perfect game.

Do you genuinely think last night's play was routine? I don't.

well, since you asked
 

For a professional this was a routine play.....now, the circumstance was far from routine but I do think it was a fairly routine play that we see hundreds of times a season. (if I were to watch hundreds of plays ;))

I couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutey correct.

I voted Yes, that the call should be overturned, but I clicked it with my eyes closed, because I do agree that it would be setting a dangerous precedent.

But Leon- the circumstances are exactly what I am talking about. To again use the NFL as an example: it is said that there is offensive holding on nearly every play from scrimmage. Does even one person believe that therefore every play should be reviewed? No, it would kill the game. But the league was able to implement a review that works efficiently and helps get critical calls right. That call last night was critical.

There are dozens of errors made every day in the major leagues, and thousands in the course of a season. An error is a routine outcome as a result of a batted ball. But would you say Bill Buckner's misplay of Mookie's ground ball was a routine play? No, it was a monumental play. Not all plays that look the same are equal.

Let me throw this into the mix...how about he add the effort to the official list of perfect games in the same way Ernie Shore's perfect game is...for the two people on this board who do not know, Ruth started the game, walked the first batter and was ejected for arguing with the ump. Shore entered the game, the batter was caught stealing and he retired the next 26. He is generally credited with a perfect game.

For what it is worth, he will probably have more enduring and marketable fame from this than if he had pitched the perfect game. He and Joyce will be linked like Branca/Thompson or Buckner/Wilson...probably can make a few dollars off dual autograph appearances for years to come.

I think having 3 of the 21 perfect games in history occur within a month is far from routine.

I think last night's game, and the play that should have ended it, were routine, only until the incorrect call was made. At that point, they ceased being routine.

I am all for getting things correct, and if that means correcting correctable errors, I am generally for it. If things had unfolded differently last night I might have felt differently. If the following batters had gotten hits and/or scored runs, I may have felt differently. But they didn't. That makes this the easiest of errors to correct. Batter is out. Game is over. Next guys AB doesn't count. Perfect game goes in the book. Apologize to the kid for ruining his celebration.


However, I feel that both sides of this argument have valid points. What isn't valid is saying that the Commissioner doesn't have the power to change it. He does. Whether he should or not is what's debatable.

? A lot of people feel angry about a lot of games, should they get reversed? I think the poise that the pitcher had was admirable. Through this mistake he was given the opportunity to show a great amount of character which will be remembered more than if the call had been right and he had pitched a perfect game.

Shore is NOT credited with a perfect game by MLB.

Shore came into the game as a relief pitcher. I never understood why he was ever credited with a perfect game, even before the rules were changed.

perhaps
 

One thing left out of all this is that if the 1st baseman had played his position and left the ball to the 2nd baseman we would not be debating this. So, imo Detroit did make an error?

So Jim & Barry....are you guys saying since it was going to be a perfect game, then we should throw everything else aside from the last 120 years of baseball and make this one exception?

So the only time we make an exception is when there is a close play on the last out of a potential perfect game? What about a no-hitter? What about a shutout? Where do you draw the line?

The human element is what is great about the game and we, as fans, have been pretty comfortable with that for over a century. It seems that some people would just assume have robots and computers making calls, "as long as they get the call correct" is all that some people care about.

What if it was a 3-2 count and he threw one right down the pipe that got called ball 4.......do you want to review balls and strikes with instant replay? No, but if it was going to be a perfect game then you do?

As for the commissioner having the power to do anything "that is in the best interest of MLB", well maybe you are right.....but I can't see how a commissioner can intercede and call a batter out a day later. Maybe he will, he's done dumber things before, but how do you think the Umpire's Association will feel about that? Jim Joyce has already publicly apologized...he got it wrong....he owned up to it. He is human.

Concerning Shore:

His most famous game occurred on June 23, 1917, against the Washington Senators in the first game of a doubleheader at Fenway Park. Ruth started the game, walking the first batter, Ray Morgan. As newspaper accounts of the time relate, the short-fused Ruth then engaged in a heated argument with apparently equally short-fused home plate umpire Brick Owens. Owens tossed Ruth out of the game, and the even more enraged Ruth then slugged the umpire a glancing blow before being taken off the field; the catcher was also ejected. Shore was recruited to pitch, and came in with very few warmup pitches. With a new pitcher and catcher, runner Morgan tried to steal but was thrown out. Shore then proceeded to retire the remaining 26 Senators without allowing a baserunner, earning a 4-0 Red Sox win. For many years the game was listed in record books as a "perfect game in relief," but officially it is scored as a no-hitter, shared (albeit unequally) by two pitchers. Following the game, Ruth paid a $100 fine, was suspended for ten games, and issued a public apology for his behavior.

I had missed/forgotten that it had been removed from the perfect game list.

Phil- I actually feel that last night's game is old business and it is too late to change it. But what I am suggesting is using last night as a wake-up call for baseball to address the need for a better way to do things, so that something like this can hopefully be avoided next time. Nothing wrong with trying to make improvements.

I hate to say it, but I voted YES too.

Instant replay would be good in certain situations.

I never suggested anything, one way or the other. I only commented on your thought that Selig did not have the power to change this. The Commissioner's powers are far reaching, although vague. He can do whatever he deems best for MLB.

Now when he runs into trouble is when he gets either side (owners or players union) ticked off. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

OK.....and what I am saying is how do you draw up a set of "instances" where we go to instant replay or booth review or something? In the NFL, NHL, NBA there are very few instances that need to be reviewed if you don't want to micro-manage every second of every game. Those games have a clock. MLB has every pitch and every play that could be scrutinized...it is not as fluid a game as the other 3 major sports.

So, how could you possibly come up with a list of instances for baseball that you could use instant replay.....I think it would be exhausting and discriminatory in nature. For example, close plays at homeplate only...then why not 3rd base or 2nd base. Only when a scoring play is affected? Well then last night wouldn't count. Only when a lead change is affected? Well then last night wouldn't count again.

I just really think that there are way too many plays that "could" be looked at during a major league baseball game that I feel it would almost be impossible to narrow down a list of instances.

Let's see if you can narrow it down (like the NFL did) to a reasonable size set of instances. Go ahead....

Overturned Call
 

I think this case hardly calls for any type of "precedent" to be set. I am sure there are others but George Brett's Pine Tar incident come to mind. Be that as it may--great post, but this seems like a very elemental decision. By all accounts the umpire made an honest mistake--Make the correct call and move on.
In basketball, you have reviews under a minute, hockey has reviews and so does football. It would take a few seconds to overturn a call like this--and with the amount of importance riding on this, how can you not?
I would rather lose a game with the correct call, than win one with an incorrect call.

I agree with Steve on both counts.
No way should it be reversed. It opens up a whole can of worms. Do we now reverse Denkinger's call in the WS? How about the horrible call on Maurer's foul ball that might have changed the entire playoffs between the Yankees and Twins?
The one thing that does bother me is that the ump, even though apologetic and contrite and admitting his mistake, violated an unwritten baseball rule which gives the pitcher the edge on a close call in a situation like this. I remember Larsen's 2 strike pitch in the WS which was in Dale Mitchell's eyes and was called a strike to preserve the perfect game. This wasn't even a close call. The ump blew a call the previous inning which changed a 1-0 game in to a 3-0 game and he isn't even talking about that one.
We don't need to open Pandora's Box. I feel sorry for the pitcher but don't take that one horrible step.

Phil- how baseball might implement a review would of course entail some thought. Perhaps it should be only allowed from the ninth inning on. Or maybe a manager is given say one challenge per game, and hope he hasn't used it by the time there are two outs in the ninth inning of a perfect game.

Frankly, I think the umps being allowed to review a home run call is arbitrary. Why is a disputed home run in the first inning any more important than a call at first base to end a perfect game? So it's already compromised. What if you have a disputed double or triple-why can't that be reviewed?

A small point but the Brett pine tar home run decision was overruled by Lee McPhail, American League President, not by the Commissioner. And although it was called a "rule interpretation" that is nonsense. Brett used too much pine tar. They measured it. It violated the rule. At that point, it was an illegal bat. Brett was justifiably called out. McPhail was wrong to overturn it. Brett reacted to being caught breaking the rules by behaving like a maniac. He should have been suspended in addition to being called out. A great contrast to the classy behavior of Galarraga who, unlike Brett, was the victim of a bad call. Sorry but I would not rely on the Brett decision to justify the Commissioner getting involved in this one. I hope umpires will always be part of the game. Would it be the same game we love if there was an electronic strike zone?

So Cleveland and Detroit have an afternoon game today, and Jim Joyce refused to take the day off and is umpiring behind home plate. But get this: Armando Galarraga brought out the line up card and presented it to Joyce, who at that moment proceeded to break out in tears.

There is an amazing story going on here that really is unique. And I also heard that the fans cheered Joyce when they easily could have called for his head.

Barry, I don't like the HR review either. Giving managers one challenge per game could work, but what are you allowed to challenge? See, there goes "the list" again of what a manager could challenge. Can he challenge balls or strikes? Balks? The phanton swipe on the double-play? Runner out of the baseline? Out of the batter's box.......it just goes on and on.

Well it doesn't go on and on if the rules are carefully spelled out. I guess I have a natural tendency to want to see things called correctly. I was heartbroken by last night's ending and just felt it was unfair, even if we all agree that bad calls are a part of the game.

Perfect Game
 

I agree with Barry...there does seem to be another story going on here. Both Galarraga and Joyce were classy in how they handled it both as it was happening and afterwards during the fallout. Joyce admitting he was wrong and apologizing and then having Galarraga change his attitude once Joyce had apologized in person. Both handled it in a classy manner.

Zach

That's what I am asking you.....do you think that you could come up with a black & white, defined list of instances that can be challenged? I don't think you can without including hundreds of instances, which is too much.

Barry, what would be your basic outline for acceptable plays that can be challenged?

wow
 

So no comments (yet) on the poll percentage. I am a bit surprised, based on the responses, that it's almost 50/50. I would have thought more folks would have voted that it shouldn't be overturned. :confused:

No -- It's Baseball.

The commissioner just ruled...the call stands (according to the Associated Press).