Cheatriots At It Again....
 

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

Looks like that ball boy missed one. :D

...waiting for the Patriots apologists to chime in on this one.

I think they held one back in case someone (officials) picked up on it, they can throw the "good ball" right into the mix and try to deceive further....

The cold can shrink your balls. 🏈

It obviously had no effect on the game (Colts just didn't come to play), but it does show the lengths the Patriots will go to in order to win.

It was 51 degrees at kickoff. How come the Colts balls didn't deflate too?

I think he was making a joke.

But, you are correct. I was just waiting for someone to blame the weather and I was going to say the same thing.

Im a New England sports fan. To me it is the Red Sox first and everything else is a poor secondary diversion. At any rate I look at the Patriots and their fans, the real die hards, as a bit cultish. They arent particularly likable, but i do get a kick out of how indignant and crybabyish people get about their cheating. Actually watching people cry and gnash teeth about sports issues (outside of the red sox) is probably one of the funniest things going. But yeah, the Pats are pretty unlikable for the most part.

I mentioned an article in the other thread, and can't find it. But there's a newer one with more detail.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footbal...ls_for_af.html

The important bit.....

"ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots footballs were tested during halftme, re-inflated after when they were found to be under-inflated, then the balls put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. "

So a 10 point lead with the underinflated balls and 28-0 for the second half using properly inflated balls.
Hint, if your team scores a whole 7 points in the game and allows 28 unanswered points in the second half the problem isn't the balls. (Maybe start with an inability to stop the run...)

Steve B

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

I'm from Massachusetts. I don't like the Patriots. I guess I'm a horrible person. :p

Not being a Pats apologist here... but I think it's silly the league and media are making such a big deal about this. I'd be nearly certain that teams have been doing this regularly for decades and no one cared (until now). If one QB liked to throw a slightly deflated ball, he'd do that... if one preferred to throw a fully inflated ball, he'd do that (Aaron Rodgers prefers this). If wet or cold conditions made the ball more slick, you could let some air out.. just like you'd put on longer cleats to play in mud. When I was in HS, it was regular to practice with worn out, highly inflated balls, then play games with nice new, lesser inflated balls (almost as a reward).

To the argument all balls need to be exactly the same-- On every other level, a team choses their game ball, brand, spec, etc, and these balls can vary quite a bit. There used to the fatter Wilson 1001 ball, and a thinner 1005 "passing ball". You'd see both of these being used as game balls in college/HS based on a team's preference. Different brand balls are different too...Nike balls may have a slightly different feel than Rawlings or Wilson... balls with painted white stripes feel different than those with sown in white stripes, which provide better grip.

At some point the NFL decided to micromanage this.. I think this is relatively recent, probably around the same time they decided to use the "K" ball for special teams. Meanwhile they've made their ball fatter and fatter over the years (though I'm sure it's probably claimed the spec's the same).

I understand that "rules are rules", but that doesn't mean some aren't more chickensh*t than others. To me Deflate-gate is in the same realm as the pine tar incident.

I love this guy. How about those Packers!

How bout those Deflatriots !

If the patriots were a card cheating technique would they be a black sharpie on a 71 topps? A trimmed card? A shill bid? Something else?

To me, nothing nearly that heinous. Maybe soaking.

AH HAHAHA!

Belicheat just threw Shady Brady under the bus!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only one person has the say on the inflation, deflation, of game balls, the starting QB. Having never really thought about it before but I`m guessing mostly due to recent stories that it`s pretty common practice among all NFL teams. Someone mentioned the "pine tar incident" which sounds about right. To me sounds like it`s fairly common knowledge between teams that they both agree to leave alone. P S on a side note as a Pats fan think I`d rather play the North/South Seahawks than the spread em out quick strike Packers.

It is against the rules, but I think it's an area where the rules are perhaps a bit over the top. And from the comments of players from other teams especially quarterbacks it looks like a rule that's regularly ignored. Nobody seems to be calling for the heads of anyone on the Packers when their QB has stated he has them overinflate the game balls for him. And nearly all QBs have the balls scuffed a certain way.

On the technical end, I'd like to see what sort of setup they're using to inflate and test. I worked with gauges a lot in hydraulics, and depending on the type their accuracy can be pretty suspect. Most are less accurate at the ends of the range, pretty decent ones are 3% at the top and bottom of the range, and 2% in the middle. So if they're using a decent 0-25 psi guage the readings should all be very accurate. But if they're using a gauge with a bigger range that's cheaper - like a bicycle pump with a built in guage- the reading could easily be off. And if the refs check with the same guage so they don't have to bring their own they'll get the same wrong result. Checking with a proper setup after a complaint will show all the supposedly correct readings to be wrong.
The little tire gauges that come from Wal-Mart etc are nowhere near accurate enough.

The NFL must be loving the extra publicity. And in the end what I think will happen is a fine, the rules call for 25 thousand, and they'll probably multiply that times 11 to fine for each ball as it's own infraction.

They should change the rules to have the league supply the balls, or find a way to add something like a tamper proof sticker over the valve that the refs would apply. A tampered sticker could then be reported by the refs and the fining could be done quickly.
Or to get a bit crazy, there's enough technology that it should be possible to make a self inflating ball that would adjust for different temperatures.

I can't say I blame the Colts for reporting it. Any rules infraction that you can get your opponent busted for is something to consider especially at playoff time. Right now the Pats are big targets, just like the Yankees have been in baseball. They're good enough that everyone wants an edge, and will report stuff that they wouldn't report another team for. Usually the commonly broken rules are let slide because every team is doing something that's either against the rules or falls into a gray area. And if you report the other team, they just might report what ever you're doing.

Steve B

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

Fwiw
 

Brian Billick was just on Mike and Mike and led off his comments by adamantly denying (and being slightly incensed by) the notion that everybody does this. He says that everyone does scuff up the balls to their liking, mostly so as to take off a layer of lacquer that comes with new footballs, but that the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?

Here you go:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/...hly/vi-AA8roRM

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

I guarantee you Belicheck talked with Brady about this. He would have asked Brady (if he didn't already know the answer): "Do you have the equipment manager or anyone else deflate the balls?" If no hanky-panky went on, Belicheck would have said as much. He would have simply said: "We do nothing to the balls after the officials checked them." He knows the answer.

Wow. Brady wants his footballs at 12.5 but couldn't feel that they were light?!? Yikes. This is going to blow up in their face.

Maybe it was colder on the Patriots sideline than it was the Colts :D

Or maybe the Patriots figured out how to overinflate the Colts balls. It's a lot of fun to watch when the team that is so easy to hate gives the haters even more reason to get agitated.

Most believable analysis of the two press conferences is that Belichek threw Brady under the bus and Brady then threw his equipment manager under the bus. Shit flows downhill for sure.

Meanwhile, the Pats players are all talking the Belichek mantra, but things will come out as players change teams. Back-up QB Jimmy Garoppolo would be the logical first one to talk, as soon as he leaves the team....guessing he sees a fat raise over the off-season.

This is so stupid. I don't care what Mike Pereria, or Billick say. If the league had been at all serious about enforcement, they would simply have supply game balls to both teams during the course of a game, not prior... however they don't and never have. In turn QBs have always had the opportunity to customize balls per their wants, and have.

As said before, on any/all other levels of football, each team plays with their own chosen game balls (which can vary considerably)... and players/coaches are allowed to choose the balls that best suit them. For the NFL to make this a big deal now is a joke. The league and press are latching onto this story because it draws more attention to the SB... and frankly draws attention away from some of the other shortcomings of Goodell and the league.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some low level locker room attendant type comes forward to say he did it and Brady/Belichick knew nothing about it. I hope at least the team compensates him for his selfless sacrifice. ;)

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

And as far as it being a serious matter, like Todd said, “the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?”

I’m sure the league will make the right decision. Here’s an excerpt from the letter that Goodell sent to Belichick after the Spygate incident, “calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field.”

I truly believe that this incident will be dealt with more harshly than Spygate (given this isn’t their first offense). The Patriots aren’t Probstein and Goodell isn’t eBay. This matter isn’t just going to go away. Something will be done, sit back and watch.

Naive or Gulible?
 

GOOD ONE, DAVID !

I’m sure the league will make the right decision

Belichick and Brady seemed perfectly credible to me. :eek:

To a point. All they are saying is that the Patriots crossed a clearly-defined line, which is pressure in the balls - heck, they gave them a fairly large range to work within. If anything, this draws attention TO the shortcomings of the NFL and Goodell.

The League wanted no part of this. This has been the worst season from a public relations standpoint that the NFL has endured in years, IMO. Yet the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson issues had finally died down. There were wild rumors about Rice being signed late by Pittsburgh to help with RB depth during the playoff chase, and coach Zimmer openly stated that he wants and expects AP to be a big part of the Vikings offense next year– in both cases the public outrage in these stories was long gone. The recent controversial endings to the Dallas/Detroit and Green Bay/Dallas games had also been an embarrassment or at least sore spot for the NFL, yet it looked like those were overcome. Now this– no way Goodell and company are happy about it, and if anything, it puts unwanted attention back on them.

Regardless of whether you think it is a major rules violation, it is a straightforward violation nonetheless, and a slap in the face of league authority. And as often happens, I believe the coverup will be worse than the crime. The Pats should have hunkered down with no comment through this week and then ducked the questions next week on the theory that we were preparing for the big game. The proper response, IMO, would be no press conference but just a simple release saying they were aware of these irregularities with the footballs and would cooperate fully with NFL investigators when questioned about it. The wink-wink of that scenario would be that Goodell would not get around to or at least would not complete his “full investigation” until after the Super Bowl, so any penalty would await next year and the overall fervor would die down. They may get that same result anyway–you heard Brady say yesterday that the league has not even questioned him about it yet– but those press conferences, especially Brady’s, bring their own harm and bad publicity and did little or nothing to calm the situation.

Some people are saying Brady should come clean, but can you really admit that you told your equipment manager to deflate balls after they had been inspected by the officials? I think the equipment manager takes the fall on this for acting based on what he thought Brady would like, and Brady continues to deny.

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

QB Damond Huard (long time NFL backup QB) said he inflated a fb to 13 lbs, felt it and deflated to 11 lbs, a full 1 1/2 lbs under allowance, and could not feel a noticable difference!

The grip is MUCH more important to a QB anyhow, not the inflation---ANY QB will tell you that, incl Mark Brunell.

Why is no one questioning the refs, who probably do no more than pick up each ball and give it a sqeeze and say "These are fine". You don't think they go in there w/ needles & guages & spend alot of pregame time, do you?

My guess is the Patriots have always inflated the balls to the min 12.5 and by halftime of ANY game they probably have fallen a bit below that.

There is no heinous crime here, Pats haters!

Let me preface this by saying I am not a Patriots fan. I am a Cardinals fan, hard to believe but true. However I do believe that if this was any other NFL team this would been a day to a day and half story at most. Doesn't make it right, or not cheating if deliberate misconduct took place (which is the most logical explanation).

How come the Colts balls didn't deflate at all and how come the Pats balls didn't deflate in the second half after they were re-inflated at half time and it got much colder in the 2nd half.

A culture of cheating with the Patriots.

Nice how you convict before knowing the facts and the investigation concludes. Guilty til proven innocent. The new American way.

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sup...tballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2...roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

Wow, Fred. There's actually quite a bit in the newspapers and on television regarding this - you should take in some of it.

Steve, no offense but I suspect most of your guesses about the gauges used (and whether or not the balls were instead squeezed) is wrong.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm going to guess that the gauges were accurate and that they were used by the referees. I'm sure that will come out after the Superbowl, but that's my 'guess' for now. This would not be a big deal if it was easily explained away, and according to every other former quarterback who has been questioned, this actually IS a big deal and a violation of the rules that quarterbacks do NOT normally perform.

Roughing up balls is legal, deflating them after they have been approved by the refs, is not legal. Yes, everyone roughs up balls. No, everyone does not deflate them. Perhaps more teams deflate them than just the Patriots, but we haven't yet heard from anyone who knows that to be true.

The ball are created to NOT deflate during games, regardless of weather and temperature conditions. If you were flying them on airplanes, you might have issues, but they are checked just before the game.

Perhaps we will find one of the following occurred, but I'm guessing it will be the last point:

• the Patriots used 11 balls that were flawed and lost air, despite the fact that they were designed not to.
• the referees did not use a guage, but just 'squeezed' the balls
• the referees used a guage that had a margin of error that made any measurements a joke
• the equipment manager knew that Brady liked his balls a bit below 12.5, and so let some air out, hoping no one would notice.

The Deflatriot apologists need to do a little reading or listen to the radio for a bit before coming up with some idiotic excuses.
Start with this:
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflat...per-bowl-xlix/

Read the official NFL statement released this afternoon.

Basically the NFL is stating that all the balls were properly tested before the game, then at half-time and then again after the game. The only inconsistency was with the Pats balls from before kickoff to half-time. That meant some person let air out of those 11 (maybe all 12) balls.

The Pats balls didn't deflate at all during the 2nd half, when the temperature drop was more dramatic, so please stop talking about the temperature.

Your coach is a cheater and now your beloved quarterback will be proven not only a liar, but also a cheater.

Shady Brady should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but we all know that won't happen...what a shame.

It's my birthday and I admit I am at least half in the bag, but you can stick that completely up your ass.

Phil--I already said that they probably were on the edge of 12.5 to start with, so any change at all puts them under the min.

ONE past violation (spygate) does NOT a culture make.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Scott---I would dare say I've watched & read as much, or more, than MOST have these past few days (retired & at home, so my TV is on all day) You are only hearing what MOST of the talking heads say, but not ALL of them. CNN this PM had 3 straight ex-players (Huard included) that believe BOTH Belichick & Brady do not truly know what happened. It's NOT ALL willing to convict before the facts, that's for sure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil---John Harbaugh thought the same thing until the League said otherwise & proved Belichick is a genius who is smart enough to USE the rules to his advantage and the other Coaches have no clue. Again, 15 straight years of success are just too much for some people & they look for anything to bring down a team that wins too much!

I don't believe Brady lied or cheated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure glad I didn't write 3 or 4 paragraphs!

Fred, my guess is that most of the people commenting on this situation, are NOT Patriot haters - I'm NFC, so if this were the 49'ers or Eagles I would be biased, but not so here. I kind of like the Patriots and hope there ends up being an honest explanation for this. I respect Brady as a great quarterback who is well-spoken and has a bit more fire than some. And I wouldn't change my level of respect for him if I found out that he did operate on the edge of the rules. But if it turns out that he is lying about this, then all of that changes. We don't know one way or the other yet, so I'll certainly reserve judgement. The truth will come out - I think it's impossible to hide in this case.

Belichek is now a known cheater, but prior to the spying incident with the Jets I had the utmost respect for him. His story is really amazing - a normal guy like any of the rest of us, who turned his love for football into a job, and became possibly the best ever at it. Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

But to your point - of course the balls were on the edge of 12.5 psi, and even a .1 drop would have technically made it a rules violation. But a 2 psi drop? C'mon.

I was a little tipsy when I wrote my post last night, and do think I overstated if I hinted the league actually wanted this as a distraction to take focus off their own issues. I definitely also agree that the response (or cover up) is worse than the crime. That being said, I think seeing the league jump to action, interview 40+ Pats employees so far, and trying to look like the ever vigilant enforcers is laughable. Contrast the rapidity of this response with the months it took Mueller to investigate and eventually tell us nothing new about whether the league had viewed the 2nd Ray Rice video. Goodell and Co are a joke, and when they want to hide and play the waiting game, they're as effective as Michael Corleone in Sicily (they knew AP and Rice stories would go stale if they could just wait)... but when they see a very manageable opportunity to prove their "integrity", like deflate-gate, they're up front and center. I also do think, even if more PR damage is being done, Goodell is probably at least somewhat happy seeing another person play league villain... this of course is just my own hunch.

I'll never be convinced this incident is a big deal. I think the referenced Damon Huard comment seems plausible. Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13. If the NFL wants to impose a regimented program for controlling, providing, monitoring game balls, and to stop allowing team supplied balls and alterations, so be it... it will then be a big deal if someone breaks these rules. Until then, I don't see how it can be made a big deal if enforcement has been nearly non existent for decades.

I also haven't had much time, nor do I really care to dig deeply into the coverage of this story, but I will say I don't trust the views of many many of the people I've seen cover the NFL. Many may be employed by the NFL network, others are granted great access and don't want to jeopardize that... others just have no clue. Years ago I shared an apartment with an oft times nationally syndicated sports radio host. I watched a Super Bowl with him and could not believe how little he truly knew football (couldn't tell a traditional 5 step drop from a QB in the shotgun, and so on)... yet he'd made a career talking about it, and even scarier, talked politics too. In the end, I realized most of his takes were just borrowed/taken from other talking heads, and there was limited originality in his "opinions". I'll continue to trust my gut on this one, and hope this does not overshadow what is a very compelling on field match up.

Fred, come on. These balls were "at least" 2 PSI below the minimum. That's almost 20% less than a fully inflated ball.

What do you think happened to them? Why were they below minimum (by at least 2 PSI) at half time? How come, after they were re-inflated at half-time, they didn't lose any pressure during the 2nd half?

Brady said in his press conference that he loves a ball at 12.5 PSI. Don't you think a QB at his level could tell there was a difference in these balls?

I think that they have been deflating balls for years, that certainly explains how their team fumble rate is off the charts compared to all the other 31 NFL teams.

Also, I think one big lie both Belicheat and Shady told was that they didn't learn about the situation until Monday morning. They stopped the game to change balls. Don't you think that was why they were still throwing late in the 4th Quarter when the game was already over. They were pi##ed off that the Colts called them on it.

Read this article about their "culture". I know it's one man's opinion that lost to NE in a Super Bowl and he does mention that he doesn't have any solid evidence because Goodell got rid of all the evidence after SpyGate.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12...ts-controversy

Tainted Super Bowls and tainted careers for both.

When did we start relying on our honorable, unbiased press to determine guilt. I must have not been paying attention in class. Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt. Until then, the appropriate punishment be dished out.

What country have you been living in? I could list examples all day, but I'll just post the most obvious, the situation that Penn State football has just gone through. There's no innocent until proven guilty. There is no requirement of proof of guilt beyond any standard.

If you live in the USA, then you obviously weren't paying attention in class. Those standards only apply to our criminal justice system. Any where else those standards do not apply. You must be living under a rock or never watch or read the news, because people are convicted in the court of public and punishments applied regularly. I am amazed that someone living in this country could post the above, but then this is the internet.

LOL! This isn't the criminal court system. What trial? The proof is all there, they're just finishing up the investigation. Then, Goodell will hand out the punishment. Expect it to be harsh.


Agreed.

Sorry but I gotta chime in here. Patriots fans or pretty much most of New England fans(mainly Red Sox and patriot fans) have to be the biggest hypocrites in all of sports. The patriots have been caught cheating not once but TWICE!!!!

11 of their 12 balls were deflated on purpose. It has already been proved by experts that the weather couldn't deflat them! So patriot fans, why don't you stop making stupid excuses for your team and admit they're cheaters. Really Bill or Tom should be suspended for the Super Bowl but the NFL is sweeping this whole thing under the rug till after the big game. No way should a investigation take two weeks, they just want to punish you guys after the game.


I really hope the patriots don't win the super bowl because it would be a joke to the NFL and to all America sports. Not sure how anyone can view Bill or Tom as a role model because they're nothing but liars and cheaters.

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

It's hard to believe that Troy Aikman, John Madden, Kurt Warner. et al. are all jealous of the Patriots' success or "hate" them for some reason when they state the quarterback had to know what was going on, and Mark Brunnell looked far more hurt than angry in saying he could not believe Tom Brady.

I'm still at a loss as to why they held those pressers at all. It is almost borderline hubris to think that they would put an end to the matter or even really slow the story's momentum, especially since Brady knew beforehand that his answers were going to be simple denial--denial that he had to believe his peers would find not credible, unless he truly thinks he is beyond public inquiry and potential scorn. A real head scratcher for me.

Not a problem Todd! I don't take internet chatter too personally no matter what is said, just wanted to put in my support for the Patriots regardless how others feel.

Thanks Todd - tact is not normally my strong suit. Agreed on the reaction of ex-NFL qb's. Brunnell really did look hurt. I was also surprised at Aikman's response. As far as Brady's press conference attitude - if he is lying, then there is no other way to take it than that he feels he is beyond reproach. But look at ARod, McGwire, Braun, Lance Armstrong. All of these athletes seemingly should have known they would eventually be caught, and to us 'normal folks', honesty up-front was a no-brainer approach to the fix each was in. But do we have ANY examples of a pro athlete who has been truthful before the proof was shown? I can't think of s single one.

We discussed deflate-gate over pints at the pub last night and an old(er) geezer had the best comment: "some guy with the Pats carries a needle, pops it in and deflates the balls - how hard is that?" It made me wonder - how similar was the psi in the 11 balls? If pretty much exact it would lead you to believe that the equipment manager was a pro at this - pop in the needle for x seconds, move to the next one, etc. If not for Aikman and Brunnell's reactions, I would assume that it's so easy, and so beneficial to the teams, that more would be doing it.

I think there's some truth in both sides of this. I think the vitriol is greater than it would be bc it involves the Patriots. The winning, the previous nefarity, the smug, arrogant, irascible Head Coach and the the pretty boy QB with the supermodel wife. It's the same dynamic that makes the arrows slung at Barry Bonds much greater than the ones at Mark McGwire - the smug/arrogant/a**holish behavior.

Fran Tarkenton phone interview...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/400569367...#sp=show-clips

This has been a hilarious and hideous week for all. People are just nutso -Admittedly, I'm no different.

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first. I know few do but, I choose to await the league's opinion/recommendation/sentence and not impune before the investigation is complete.

It's like trying to reason with a rabid Kim Jong il/un here. I'm tired of hearing "haters gonna hate" from our fans too. Everyone of us should want to know the specifics of what went down (pun intended).

One thing I do know, The cartoons and texts I've been getting are clever as Hell -from both camps. Just received another as I'm typing this -Hernandez loading a glock or something sick. Well, hope there's a decision soon. Until then, LGP!

(Now when the heck is baseball starting?)

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com...pg?w=600&h=729



https://thechive.files.wordpress.com...pg?w=600&h=415

http://youtu.be/aHukC_yH7Ys


Watch this video.

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

"close-minded?" Pull another palm leaf over your eyes.

I in no way doubt someone let air out, and think it was most likely done per Brady's preference. I was just curious if people would be aware, to the touch, of the different pressures they're shouting about. Not even saying they wouldn't (though Huard quote was interesting), but could you pick an odd ball or two out of 24, or tell if all 12 were under inflated? I have always preferred a lightly under inflated ball, but have NO idea what psi they were ever inflated to. Footballs say- "inflate to 13 lbs", but never once have I seen a psi gauge on a ball pump, so I personally have little/no true point of reference. As an aside, if you want to feel a difference, hold some of the various college and HS that have been used over the years, on all other levels including major D-1. These ball variations have not set a tone of uniformity in football as a whole. The difference between the old Wilson 1001 and 1005 collegiate ball was crazy (it reminded me of the crazy -5, vs normal -3 metal bats used in college back then)... and Wilson is not the only game ball supplier.

I agree Brady's stated preference of 12.5 psi makes him look bad as he tries to deflect this... just as would Rodgers' known preference for highly inflated footballs if his were found to be over inflated. My guess would be Brady wants a little air let out in wet/cold weather. I still think this has been blown way way out of proportion, especially considering how all the custom ball prep (I'm sure often including softness or hardness based on inflation) has been a non issue, and has been "enforced" as such. As said, if the league wants to go the route of the "K" ball with game balls, and supply all game balls, then this sort of doctoring should be a big deal. Until then, I can't justify getting upset about something no one really cared about, or cared to enforce.

Oddly enough, my dad got me a college ball for my birthday years ago when I was in HS. I never even used it (was saving it until my old one was worn out) but within a year of so, the bladder had failed and it wouldn't hold air. I definitely don't think this is at all the case with the Pats, but know those things can go bad. Still have that ball stashed away.

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Runs, My apology. I was addressing the other fella. Unless you're together?

Thanks for enlightening me on how discussion forums work. We are all allowed to respond to the OP, but not comment on anyone else's responses.

But to respond directly to you - yeah, it's a conspiracy, and we are all "together". You know - since we think the Patriots might be guilty - we are therefore Patriot haters.

Todd, you just hate the Patriots. I'm so disappointed.

"Might" be guilty. There's hope afoot! I hope the rest of the gallery are as enlightened. It sure was for me - the Belichick conference that is... Well, I've got to prepare for a Super Bowl. Play nice on your device now. Toodles ladies. And gentlemen

Enjoy the game. I ordered my official super bowl viewing shirt yesterday :)

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/025...g?v=1421364681http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/025...g?v=1421364684

Reinforces your earlier point, the response is worse than the crime.. And their response has been awkward to say the least. Saw bits of his presser today, I think saying they didn't have hands on balls from the time they were prepped/measured until game time. Like Scott said though, all you need is the needle to let air out.

Still, not at all upset with Pats if they did this, and deflate-gate is still stupid.

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

If the league had cared at all about this rule in its history, they'd simply supply all game balls, that meet their required specs... They don't (nor does any level of football), and so teams/QBs/staff have been more or less allowed to this stuff forever, probably without really considering it's being "cheating" (should the base coach have a guilty conscience?). Going forward, I'm guessing this changes though, which I also think is lame because I'm 100% fine with QBs being given some leeway on the feel of the footballs they use. But I think with all the attention, this will become something that becomes more rigidly enforced. All other teams, be happy your team wasn't the one this blew up on.. Packer fans, be happy Rodgers didn't get caught with a 14 psi ball, simply because no one had ever cared to check... And Peyton Manning fans, be ready to see your QB launch even more ducky looking ducks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of cheating. I think spygate was really bad, as was what the Saints did, but I also don't think that secretly filming practices or listening in on coordinators/visiting locker rooms was a generally accepted practice. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean that some rules violations are far less serious than others.

Love Pete Carroll- "it's serious for them" comment. My gut tells me inside he's probably thinking, who cares but better them than us.

Base coaches aren't hiding - they are right there in the open and could be told to get back in their box. If you are saying that everyone knows that quarterbacks are having air let out of their balls, then I would agree with you, but the quarterbacks we have heard from so far are not saying that at all.

The best example I can think of is corked bats or spitballs. Tim Hudson still throws spitballs and I'm sure the league knows it and has decided to ignore it. But it's cheating. <== blatant product advertising as I own a documented Hudson spitball :)

Ian, here's the big difference here.....do QBs alter game balls before the game? Yes. But once the game officials check them prior to kickoff, 99% of QBs and/or teams do not then go back to those balls and make them illegal again. That is what is being accused here.
Does Aaron Rodgers prefer over-inflated footballs? Supposedly, but he said he's disappointed when the officials take air out of them to make them legal. He doesn't then go back and mess with them again.

And this has not been going on forever. Before 2007, I believe, the home team supplied all the balls. Do you know who pleaded with the Competition Committee to change the rule to allow each team to supply their own footballs? You got it, Tom Brady.

Must have been cheating all along.

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money :D

Steve B

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.